Is This Totally Unplayable?

[Amaril]

So, I'm currently designing a backup character for the campaign I'm currently in, in case my current character dies or we start up a new game for some other reason. I created this backup character when we were second level, and I'm continually leveling her up at the same time as my current character. However, I'm having a bit of a dilemma regarding my backup character's design.

See, this is a character I'm building pretty much entirely for roleplaying and flavor rather than mechanical concerns. I came up with this backstory for her that I think is one of my best ever (since I'm hoping not to introduce her until high levels, if at all, I made it a bit more extensive than normal, to include past adventuring experience), and she's got a personality that I think it would be awesome to roleplay as. Problem is, because of her backstory, she ended up being a pretty ineffective character in terms of mechanics.

The idea is, she started out her career as a druid for 1 level, and then became a paladin instead. So I gave her one level in druid in addition to her paladin levels, but because of the alignment restrictions on both classes, she's now considered an ex-druid--effectively wasting an entire level. I also spent her skill points more for flavor purposes than mechanical usefulness--she has ranks in Profession (Painter), which is pretty much the least useful skill I can think of for any class ever. She's got pretty kickass ability scores, and because she's human she gets the bonus feat and extra skill points to throw around, but I'm not sure whether that'll be sufficient to counterbalance her glaring flaws.

Now, I don't care if she's not the most effective character ever built, or even the best in the group, but I'm concerned that the decisions I've made for the sake of concept will make her so bad as to be completely unusable. Is this likely? Can I get away with playing a character like this if I make smart gameplay decisions and build effectively at later levels? If you have any questions, I can put up more details about her attributes, I just don't have her character sheet on hand right at the moment. Thanks :smallsmile:

[Karnith]

Having one mostly-dead level won't cripple you mechanically; you still get hit points, skills, and base save bonuses. It's not as bad (in some ways) as just being a level behind the other players, which is manageable. Additionally, the strengths of the paladin class (such as they are) aren't really geared towards heavy skill-usage. If you've got some spare skill points, taking the equivalent of Craft (basket-weaving) probably won't have a very large impact on your character's effectiveness, especially in combat.

But is there a reason that you want to represent having been a druid mechanically? Being an ex-druid won't grant you any class features or abilities, so it's not like it would be very different from having levels in some other class. Could you just have the ex-druid stuff as a part of your backstory?

[Amaril]

Having one mostly-dead level won't cripple you mechanically; you still get hit points, skills, and base save bonuses. It's not as bad (in some ways) as just being a level behind the other players, which is manageable.

But is there a reason that you want to represent having been a druid mechanically? Being an ex-druid won't grant you any class features or abilities, so it's not like it would be very different from having levels in some other class. Could you just have the ex-druid stuff as a part of your backstory?

Well, I could, but one thing I kinda like about keeping the ex-druid level is that it'll let me retain druid class skills. It's not that important, but I like the idea of my paladin suddenly pulling out some random scrap of remembered druidic knowledge when the party is stumped and surprising everyone, thus providing the catalyst for character development and revelation of backstory.

Also, I kinda want her to speak Druidic. It might come in handy eventually, you never know.

[Gnome Alone]

Some folk will be along in a sec to say with varying politeness that being powerful doesn't mean you're not roleplaying & that being built poorly doesn't mean you are.

Anyway, there's a CG paladin variant and personally I think Profession ranks are cool.

[Amaril]

Some folk will be along in a sec to say with varying politeness that being powerful doesn't mean you're not roleplaying & that being built poorly doesn't mean you are.

Anyway, there's a CG paladin variant and personally I think Profession ranks are cool.

Oh no, better ready some actions to fend off the attack :smallbiggrin:

And this is a core-only Pathfinder game, so that variant isn't really an option (never minding that it would still have the same effect on the druid level as becoming LG would). I just took the Profession ranks because painting is her favorite hobby and she's really good at it. I think it's nice to give characters details like this sometimes, even if they're not that useful.

[Gnome Alone]

Oh wait, just remembered druid has to be some variety of neutral. I am not good at this.

[Karnith]

Well, I could, but one thing I kinda like about keeping the ex-druid level is that it'll let me retain druid class skills. It's not that important, but I like the idea of my paladin suddenly pulling out some random scrap of remembered druidic knowledge when the party is stumped and surprising everyone, thus providing the catalyst for character development and revelation of backstory.

Also, I kinda want her to speak Druidic. It might come in handy eventually, you never know.
Well, speaking Druidic is pretty hard to do if you aren't a druid, but I mostly asked because it sounds like a level in ranger would give you most of the druid-y stuff you'd want, and more than you'd be able to keep from ex-druid class levels, with basically a better chassis (more hit points, a better base attack bonus, and more skills).

[Amaril]

Well, speaking Druidic is pretty hard to do if you aren't a druid, but I mostly asked because it sounds like a level in ranger would give you basically all of the druid-y stuff you'd want, and more than you'd be able to keep from ex-druid class levels, with basically a better chassis (more hit points, a better base attack bonus, and more skills).

Hmm, fair point...I'll consider it.

Hang on, though--you don't lose the ability to speak druidic when you become an ex-druid. It's not a magical language, it's just a secret the druids don't teach to outsiders. If she learned it before she switched classes, she keeps it later.

[Karnith]

Hang on, though--you don't lose the ability to speak druidic when you become an ex-druid. It's not a magical language, it's just a secret the druids don't teach to outsiders. If she learned it before she switched classes, she keeps it later.
That is correct, and if it's important to you that your character be able to speak Druidic (or that she have actual levels in Druid), then Druid is the only way that I can think of to do so, absent asking your DM to bend the rules. I think that if you're worried about your character being effective, though, a ranger dip would be mechanically better for her than a dip in druid without class features.

[Amaril]

That is correct, and if it's important to you that your character be able to speak Druidic (or that she have actual levels in Druid), then Druid is the only way that I can think of to do so, absent asking your DM to bend the rules. I think that if you're worried about your character being effective, though, a ranger dip would be mechanically better for her than a dip in druid without class features.

Ah, I see--I thought you meant that ex-druids couldn't speak Druidic. This makes more sense.

From what I've been reading, I'm getting that although a ranger level would be more effective, a druid level wouldn't totally break the character, and I think she's got the ability score optimization to handle the disadvantage. I'm hoping she'll have at least five levels in Paladin by the time I have to introduce her (if my wizard dies before then, I'm going to be very sad), so it shouldn't matter quite as much as it does now.

Thanks for the advice :smallbiggrin:

[ZeroNumerous]

Is it truenamer? No? Then it's playable.

It would be very easy to just be straight Paladin, spend 2 skill points on Speak Language(Druidic) and simply fluff yourself as a druid who left the order. I'm sure your DM would be fine with that, because frankly: Who remembers Druidic anyway?

If you want to stick with Druid 1/Whatever non-druid X... Then more power to you, but I think it's completely possible to keep the same fluff with just Whatever X and 2 skill points spent on a language.

[ericgrau]

she has ranks in Profession (Painter), which is pretty much the least useful skill I can think of for any class ever.
That's the most useful skill I can think of for any class you could ever play :smalltongue:. Mainly because I love marvelous pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments) so much. Whatever non-magical thing you paint becomes real. Ya, it's that amazing.

Druids get survival and listen, which are handy skills. Read up on them. Your future skill ranks might cost double, but your max ranks are the same as a single classed druid.

Keep in mind that skill ranks involve an exceptional level of ability. If it's a minor thing don't feel bad about putting in 1 or 0 ranks for your background. Except in painting, heh.

[Daftendirekt]

spend 2 skill points on Speak Language(Druidic)

Good luck with that. Can only be taught Druidic by a druid, and if they teach a non-druid they lose all their druid powers.

Go find a druid to torture into teaching you. And then convince your DM that you're still lawful good for those paladin levels.

[Amaril]

That's the most useful skill I can think of for any class you could ever play :smalltongue:. Mainly because I love marvelous pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments) so much. Whatever non-magical thing you paint becomes real. Ya, it's that amazing.

What. Is. This. :smalleek:

Seriously, if that's an item, I think I've struck gold here. Wow.

Unfortunately, the skill is actually even less useful to this particular character than it might be to someone else. It's another part of her characterization--a big thing I wanted to emphasize is everything she had to sacrifice from her old life to follow the path of a paladin. Among other things, the tradition she was taught includes some fairly strict ascetic principles, meaning she had to leave all her painting stuff behind when she left her dad's house--possession breeds attachment and greed, and all that. So those skill points are about as much help as an air conditioner on Hoth right about now.

If she found something like that, though, she might make an exception, if only to make a bunch of food for all the orphans :smalltongue:

[Eugenides]

Good luck with that. Can only be taught Druidic by a druid, and if they teach a non-druid they lose all their druid powers.

Go find a druid to torture into teaching you. And then convince your DM that you're still lawful good for those paladin levels.

And then get 10 levels in roleplaying XP.

[ericgrau]

What. Is. This. :smalleek:

Seriously, if that's an item, I think I've struck gold here. Wow.

Unfortunately, the skill is actually even less useful to this particular character than it might be to someone else. It's another part of her characterization--a big thing I wanted to emphasize is everything she had to sacrifice from her old life to follow the path of a paladin. Among other things, the tradition she was taught includes some fairly strict ascetic principles, meaning she had to leave all her painting stuff behind when she left her dad's house--possession breeds attachment and greed, and all that. So those skill points are about as much help as an air conditioner on Hoth right about now.

If she found something like that, though, she might make an exception, if only to make a bunch of food for all the orphans :smalltongue:

See link in post. It's a magic item in the DMG. 4,000 gp. Creates up to 2,000 gp worth of stuff. You paint it on demand after only 10 minutes. Portable food creation is one thing I've commonly used it for, yes. Meals cost 1-5 sp each depending on quality. I've also used it to seal off a cave reverse Wile-E-Coyote painting style, when we discovered that we shouldn't be digging there since we were disturbing a good creature's treasure.

I've never done it but it could also be a great way to quickly equip an entire town with weapons and armor, without worrying about where to get them, how to transport them or how long that will take vs. how close the invaders are. Now they can defend themselves, under your guidance naturally. Most good things you could do with the pigments seem pretty paladin-y, come to think of it. It's no longer vain once the things you paint are real.

[Chaosvii7]

Go find a druid to torture into teaching you. And then convince your DM that you're still lawful good for those paladin levels.

You make it sound like you've never seen Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil druids before. You also make it sound like a paladin wouldn't go to such lengths to stop them.

[Deophaun]

The idea is, she started out her career as a druid for 1 level, and then became a paladin instead. So I gave her one level in druid in addition to her paladin levels, but because of the alignment restrictions on both classes, she's now considered an ex-druid--effectively wasting an entire level.
I'm wondering why you did this.

As this is backstory, I'm having problems with how a character can go from neutral to lawful so quick so early. It seems to me the character was torn, wanting to be a druid and nature-y, spreading love and kindness to all the forest creatures, but at the same time having a love of law/order/fairness that made her never quite fit in. Thus, despite living among druids and trying to copy their ways, she was never accepted as one of them. Give her starting feats appropriate for a character trying to be a druid, and throw some cross-class starting skill points into Knowledge (nature) and Survival, and then run with it. Is there a reason this kind of approach wouldn't work?

[Amaril]

I'm wondering why you did this.

As this is backstory, I'm having problems with how a character can go from neutral to lawful so quick so early. It seems to me the character was torn, wanting to be a druid and nature-y, spreading love and kindness to all the forest creatures, but at the same time having a love of law/order/fairness that made her never quite fit in. Thus, despite living among druids and trying to copy their ways, she was never accepted as one of them. Give her starting feats appropriate for a character trying to be a druid, and throw some cross-class starting skill points into Knowledge (nature) and Survival, and then run with it. Is there a reason this kind of approach wouldn't work?

No, not really, I just didn't really think of doing it any other way.

And yes, you've pretty much completely nailed what her childhood was like. Her father was a druid and raised her as a member of his order, but she always came into conflict with them because of their adherence to neutrality, where all she wanted to do was good. She became a paladin after they helped a party of adventurers who came through their territory take down a wight that had been causing problems--the paladin in the group recognized her potential, and offered to take her with them as his squire, which she did. They ended up getting married before he was killed by a fire giant.

Yeah, I've put a considerable amount of thought into the story :smallbiggrin:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Some folk will be along in a sec to say with varying politeness that being powerful doesn't mean you're not roleplaying & that being built poorly doesn't mean you are.

Good Evening! Pleased to make your acquaintance, Sir and Madam.

I just wanted to chime in and remind you that while Druid is one of the rare exceptions to the rule "Class does not equal character concept" Paladin is not and you could try a different class combination to explore roleplaying the concept of Ex-Druid turned Paladin. I actually really like the idea of a goody two shoes Druid that just found themselves being a little too Lawful one day (know you didn't specify that, it's just what I'm picturing).

You should consider asking the DM if retraining is possible in your game that way your character could have actually been a Druid 1 in her past then there'd be no reason you couldn't have Druidic as a language.

One reason I'm somewhat concerned is that while a dead level isn't necessarily the kiss of death to a build doing it on a Paladin could be pushing it. Especially since with the fact that your asking suggests you aren't one of the more skilled optimizers of your group to begin with. At a minimum I'd suggest looking up a optimized Paladin build that fits the general feel you want for your Paladin abilities and sticking fairly close to it (excepting the dip in Druid, of course) that will keep your character strong or at least not weak in most groups.


Good Night and Good Luck

Just read the backstory, you posted while I was typing. What setting are you playing in? Would you considered being a Cleric of Ehlonna? She's NG and has Domains of Good, Plant, Animal and Sun so it could be a great hybrid of a Shining Armor Hero Type and a Nature Loving Druid.

Also a Knight marrying their former squire feels weird to me. If she only gained one level how much time passed between here squire(ship?ness?) ending and their courtship beginning? If instead rather that training her as a squire to be a Paladin, he discovered a Cleric candidate she could become part of a separate hierarchy within the church. Then when they met again they could be approximate equals and have a less awkward romance.

[Amaril]

Good Evening! Pleased to make your acquaintance, Sir and Madam.

I just wanted to chime in and remind you that while Druid is one of the rare exceptions to the rule "Class does not equal character concept" Paladin is not and you could try a different class combination to explore roleplaying the concept of Ex-Druid turned Paladin. I actually really like the idea of a goody two shoes Druid that just found themselves being a little too Lawful one day (know you didn't specify that, it's just what I'm picturing).

You should consider asking the DM if retraining is possible in your game that way your character could have actually been a Druid 1 in her past then there'd be no reason you couldn't have Druidic as a language.

One reason I'm somewhat concerned is that while a dead level isn't necessarily the kiss of death to a build doing it on a Paladin could be pushing it. Especially since with the fact that your asking suggests you aren't one of the more skilled optimizers of your group to begin with. At a minimum I'd suggest looking up a optimized Paladin build that fits the general feel you want for your Paladin abilities and sticking fairly close to it (excepting the dip in Druid, of course) that will keep your character strong or at least not weak in most groups.


Good Night and Good Luck

Just read the backstory, you posted while I was typing. What setting are you playing in? Would you considered being a Cleric of Ehlonna? She's NG and has Domains of Good, Plant, Animal and Sun so it could be a great hybrid of a Shining Armor Hero Type and a Nature Loving Druid.

Also a Knight marrying their former squire feels weird to me. If she only gained one level how much time passed between here squire(ship?ness?) ending and their courtship beginning? If instead rather that training her as a squire to be a Paladin, he discovered a Cleric candidate she could become part of a separate hierarchy within the church. Then when they met again they could be approximate equals and have a less awkward romance.

I do picture it being pretty awkward, but they were around the same age the whole time and quite a while passed between the two forms of association (they were part of the same group for over five years). She gained something like seven paladin levels during that time, over the course of an epic quest to reclaim their dwarven fighter friend's kingdom. Regardless, "weird but somehow simultaneously adorable" was pretty much the general opinion among the group.

[Urpriest]

Hmm, fair point...I'll consider it.

Hang on, though--you don't lose the ability to speak druidic when you become an ex-druid. It's not a magical language, it's just a secret the druids don't teach to outsiders. If she learned it before she switched classes, she keeps it later.

Actually, that's not true. Ex-Druids don't just lose their "magical" stuff, they lose all Druid abilities (many of which are nonmagical). That doesn't include armor and weapon proficiencies, but it definitely includes extra languages.

Regardless, it depends when your character switched over, but if it was anywhere close to the beginning of their career they probably wouldn't have a level in Druid. Same with Profession (Painter): unless you think your character can keep up with a professional painter and earn money that way you shouldn't have ranks.

[Toy Killer]

I've played many paladins since 2ed, and in third edition, a paladin is better as a dip then as the solid 1-20.

I understand you're playing PF, and PF did really up the viability of a paladin, but I would sincerely recommend going Cleric (Oracles in pathfinder? Or is that a separate class?) after your first couple of levels. Paladins don't shine up to their role very well, and since you're here more for the story then the rolling (I presume, at least), then realize that the names of the class are meaningless and that the important thing about paladins is the mindset of the pure, not the mechanics behind their character sheet.

I played a dwarven bard as a paladin once, for example. Ranks in Perform:(Oratory). The class has it's early perks, but beyond 2nd level, it's pretty meager.

[Amaril]

Actually, that's not true. Ex-Druids don't just lose their "magical" stuff, they lose all Druid abilities (many of which are nonmagical). That doesn't include armor and weapon proficiencies, but it definitely includes extra languages.

Regardless, it depends when your character switched over, but if it was anywhere close to the beginning of their career they probably wouldn't have a level in Druid. Same with Profession (Painter): unless you think your character can keep up with a professional painter and earn money that way you shouldn't have ranks.

Yeah, I'm thinking now that I should just redo the character as a pure paladin with some cross-class stuff to represent early druidic education. Think I'll go do that. Still not sure about the languages thing, but I'll check that later.

[Alienist]

Druid who becomes a paladin, falls out of Druid, and then gets tricked into blighter (aka vigilante justice) (thus falling out of paladin) would be totally epic.

You could call her the Thrice Fallen.*

*Yes, I can count, nitpickers need not apply.

[Amaril]

Druid who becomes a paladin, falls out of Druid, and then gets tricked into blighter (aka vigilante justice) (thus falling out of paladin) would be totally epic.

You could call her the Thrice Fallen.*

*Yes, I can count, nitpickers need not apply.

She just needs to fall back to druid again :smallbiggrin:

Actually, she could use a badass title. Any suggestions based on the so far very limited information?

[ericgrau]

Actually, that's not true. Ex-Druids don't just lose their "magical" stuff, they lose all Druid abilities (many of which are nonmagical). That doesn't include armor and weapon proficiencies, but it definitely includes extra languages.

Presumably they also keep their BAB, saves, hp and skills, and languages fall under skills. I'd find it pretty amazing to be able to forget a language. They learn it and it could be taught to others (even though it's forbidden for non-druids); it isn't divinely inserted into their heads through a column of light. They do lose their various (Ex) abilities though.

[Squirrel_Dude]

She just needs to fall back to druid again :smallbiggrin:

Actually, she could use a badass title. Any suggestions based on the so far very limited information?Easy,

Blighter Smiter

[Amaril]

Easy,

Blighter Smiter

Ummm, no.

Although she did get her first paladin level by smiting the crap out of the aforementioned wight after the rest of the group were all in negatives, but still--no.

[Urpriest]

Presumably they also keep their BAB, saves, hp and skills, and languages fall under skills. I'd find it pretty amazing to be able to forget a language. They learn it and it could be taught (even though it's forbidden); it isn't divinely inserted into their heads through a column of light. They do lose their various (Ex) abilities though.

Actually, I think it's debatable that languages fall under skills. In Pathfinder, languages are bought with Linguistics, which is a skill that can be rolled...but getting bonus languages like Druidic has no effect on Linguistics. Languages are a separate mechanic. And while it would be pretty amazing for someone to forget a language, it would also be amazing for them to forget how to do things like Trackless Step.

[Amaril]

Actually, I think it's debatable that languages fall under skills. In Pathfinder, languages are bought with Linguistics, which is a skill that can be rolled...but getting bonus languages like Druidic has no effect on Linguistics. Languages are a separate mechanic. And while it would be pretty amazing for someone to forget a language, it would also be amazing for them to forget how to do things like Trackless Step.

The difference being that (I'm pretty sure) trackless step is a supernatural ability. I think.

[ericgrau]

Bards even get speak language as a class skill and speak language is in the skills section of the PHB. Languages are skills. They merely don't have modifiers or checks.

The druidic language is explained right next to the ability to select sylvan, too.

Leaving no trail is pretty amazing. Branches somehow are not snapped, and your footprints in the mud or grass spring back up into the impression made. Druid abilities might not be magically, but most are still physics breaking. It seems to be more than just knowledge.


The difference being that (I'm pretty sure) trackless step is a supernatural ability. I think.
Nope, (Ex) as are the rest, but still physics breaking.

[Jack_Simth]

That's the most useful skill I can think of for any class you could ever play :smalltongue:. Mainly because I love marvelous pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments) so much. Whatever non-magical thing you paint becomes real. Ya, it's that amazing.Check out the fully nonmagical Shapesand, from Sandstorm.



Good luck with that. Can only be taught Druidic by a druid, and if they teach a non-druid they lose all their druid powers.

Go find a druid to torture into teaching you. And then convince your DM that you're still lawful good for those paladin levels.Nah, that's not how you do it. You find someone who has used Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) on Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm), and ask that person to teach you. Tongues lets you speak any language, and doesn't have an exception for Druidic.

Plus, of course, there's the little issue that once *a* druid has taught a non-druid the language, that person can then teach others without penalty. So the Wizard who Dominated a low-level Druid a long time ago, and learned the language that way, may very well have written books on the subject from which you can learn.

[Amaril]

Check out the fully nonmagical Shapesand, from Sandstorm.


Nah, that's not how you do it. You find someone who has used Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) on Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm), and ask that person to teach you. Tongues lets you speak any language, and doesn't have an exception for Druidic.

Plus, of course, there's the little issue that once *a* druid has taught a non-druid the language, that person can then teach others without penalty. So the Wizard who Dominated a low-level Druid a long time ago, and learned the language that way, may very well have written books on the subject from which you can learn.

Which the druids would hunt down and burn, after killing the author. They killed trees to write them anyway.

[Urpriest]

The difference being that (I'm pretty sure) trackless step is a supernatural ability. I think.

Nope, it, like many Druid abilities, is Ex. It's just a matter of learning how to walk in natural surroundings so as to not cause disturbances, it's not the sort of thing someone in the real world would forget just because their moral philosophy changes. And yet, in D&D, it is.


Bards even get speak language as a class skill and speak language is in the skills section of the PHB. Languages are skills. They merely don't have modifiers or checks.


We're talking Pathfinder. Speak Language isn't a thing anymore. Instead there is Linguistics, which is definitely a skill in the traditional sense, and various languages that you get without ranks in Linguistics, which as such are not skills.

And while Trackless Step is indeed physics-breaking, so is Druidic itself. Druidic is a language known only to Druids. That's right there in the ability description, and in a world as old as Golarion in which Druids have as many allegiances as anyone else that is completely physically impossible.



Nah, that's not how you do it. You find someone who has used Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) on Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm), and ask that person to teach you. Tongues lets you speak any language, and doesn't have an exception for Druidic.

Plus, of course, there's the little issue that once *a* druid has taught a non-druid the language, that person can then teach others without penalty. So the Wizard who Dominated a low-level Druid a long time ago, and learned the language that way, may very well have written books on the subject from which you can learn.

Doesn't work. The language is only known by Druids, that's stated directly in the class feature. You can rule it that it just so happens that no-one attempts to teach non-Druids even if they have ample reason to do so, or that non-Druids are unable to learn the language.

[Rubik]

Are you allowed to use 3.5 stuff? Going crusader instead of paladin would mean you could remain NG and still keep a druid level or two.

[Mnemnosyne]

Wouldn't Craft (Painting) be the appropriate skill, if you're talking about painting as art? Profession (Painter) seems more appropriate to the guy that paints houses for a living, not someone who paints specific works of art.

...didn't really have any other comments, just the painter thing struck me as odd.

[TuggyNE]

Doesn't work. The language is only known by Druids, that's stated directly in the class feature. You can rule it that it just so happens that no-one attempts to teach non-Druids even if they have ample reason to do so, or that non-Druids are unable to learn the language.

You could, indeed, but that would quite clearly be a houserule.


A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn't take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.
[…]
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

It doesn't say "attempts to teach", it says "teaches". So it's obviously possible for non-Druids to learn the language, they're merely forbidden to know it, and Druids are forbidden to teach it. (And presumably the Druids enforce this in their usual T1 style.)

[Pesimismrocks]

Druidic cannot be learned RAW except by Druids. This is because no race or class has it in their bonus languages.


Wouldn't Craft (Painting) be the appropriate skill, if you're talking about painting as art? Profession (Painter) seems more appropriate to the guy that paints houses for a living, not someone who paints specific works of art.

Rules for this in Races of Stone, except they are for writing. I'm sure a DM would let you change the fluff so instead of writing an epic you painted a masterwork painting. It can be a great way to make money. I have 8 ranks in Craft(Musical Composition) and I write masterwork pieces on a weekly basis.

[TuggyNE]

Druidic cannot be learned RAW except by Druids. This is because no race or class has it in their bonus languages.

Um? Two points: first, it's actually listed in Linguistics; second, there's no text in Linguistics that stipulates a language must be a bonus language for someone in order for you to learn it. (There's a list, but it's not necessarily comprehensive or limiting.) Actually I lied, there's three points: Druid is a class that gets it in Bonus Languages.

So by RAW, yes, you put a rank in Linguistics and get a Druid to teach you (by hook or by crook) and now you know Druidic.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, I'm thinking now that I should just redo the character as a pure paladin with some cross-class stuff to represent early druidic education. Think I'll go do that. Still not sure about the languages thing, but I'll check that later.

You could pick up a couple traits to get two druid-y skills in class.

[Rejusu]

You could see if you could swing the Wildshape variant ranger (yes, not core PF I know but there's never any harm in asking your DM), it'd still fit with your backstory (the flavour could definitely be spun as Druid-in-training), is less of a dead level, and doesn't require as much of an alignment swing. It doesn't give you Druidic, but it really depends on how set you are on knowing it.

[Octopusapult]

I apologize if someone has made this point, or some counter-points, but I'm in a minor time crunch and am just going to spitball at the OP.

In short...

ALIGNMENT RESTRICTIONS ARE STUPID

I'm not the only one who thinks so. Just ask any Drunken Master or Blackguard.

Or even Darth Vader or V. Who did all the wrong things for his/her interpretation of the right reasons. Darth Vader being unmistakably evil, but V still retaining his/her good alignment.

Miko the Paladin is the same way. A Lawful Good Paladin who fights Good aligned adventurers because it falls in with her agenda.

Good / Evil, Lawful / Chaotic, are all open to interpretation.

You killed a school full of children and their pet bunny rabbits. Evil.

But the school was teaching them how to blow up worlds with their minds. So you killed evil children. Good.

But they were simply doing what their evil instructors told them to do, not knowing right from wrong. Evil.

Though you learned that they were the spawn of devils. Good.

Later evidence reveals that they were the LAST of a particular race of devils, meaning you just committed genocide. Evil.


It's all interpretation. So play to your characters understanding of whatever alignment you need, and see if you can retain that Druid level.

It's a stretch, but it's what I would try. :smallwink:

[Jack_Simth]

Doesn't work. The language is only known by Druids, that's stated directly in the class feature. You can rule it that it just so happens that no-one attempts to teach non-Druids even if they have ample reason to do so, or that non-Druids are unable to learn the language.
And yet, it also explicitly talks about druids teaching non-druids - which means it's possible to teach to a non-druid - both in 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Additionally, nothing stops the Tongues spell from letting someone speak and understand the language - which, with some observation and interaction, is how people can learn languages.


Druidic cannot be learned RAW except by Druids. This is because no race or class has it in their bonus languages.
Sure you can. Just take Linguistics (Pathfinder) or Speak Language (3.5) and have some excuse for how you got it.

[Urpriest]

And yet, it also explicitly talks about druids teaching non-druids - which means it's possible to teach to a non-druid - both in 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Additionally, nothing stops the Tongues spell from letting someone speak and understand the language - which, with some observation and interaction, is how people can learn languages.


Sure you can. Just take Linguistics (Pathfinder) or Speak Language (3.5) and have some excuse for how you got it.


You could, indeed, but that would quite clearly be a houserule.



It doesn't say "attempts to teach", it says "teaches". So it's obviously possible for non-Druids to learn the language, they're merely forbidden to know it, and Druids are forbidden to teach it. (And presumably the Druids enforce this in their usual T1 style.)

Both of you are forgetting that in D&D teaching something and knowing it are entirely unconnected. Knowledge is a game mechanical property: you can know spells, languages, skills. None of these things can be taught. Even in the closest case, that of Wizard spells, you need to decode someone else's spellbook yourself, and the spellbook's owner helping has no effect whatsoever. There are many many things in D&D that, in the real world would be teachable, including most class features. In D&D, these things can't be gained by teaching. While a Druid certainly can teach someone Druidic, that in no way allows that person to actually speak Druidic, because in D&D the only way to learn something is from personal experience.

[Jack_Simth]

Both of you are forgetting that in D&D teaching something and knowing it are entirely unconnected. Knowledge is a game mechanical property: you can know spells, languages, skills. None of these things can be taught.
Psionics can - Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) will do it, if nothing else. As I said: "Just take Linguistics (Pathfinder) or Speak Language (3.5) and have some excuse for how you got it."

Druidic clearly has clauses for it being possible for the language to spread beyond Druids. So... what's the problem, really?

While a Druid certainly can teach someone Druidic, that in no way allows that person to actually speak Druidic, because in D&D the only way to learn something is from personal experience.Right. So when next they level up, they take Speak Language (Druidic), or Linguistics and pick Druidic. Alternately, they invoke the retraining rules in the PHB II to shift skill points and get the same effect without waiting to level up.

[Daftendirekt]

Psionics can - Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) will do it, if nothing else. As I said: "Just take Linguistics (Pathfinder) or Speak Language (3.5) and have some excuse for how you got it."

Druidic clearly has clauses for it being possible for the language to spread beyond Druids. So... what's the problem, really?
Right. So when next they level up, they take Speak Language (Druidic), or Linguistics and pick Druidic. Alternately, they invoke the retraining rules in the PHB II to shift skill points and get the same effect without waiting to level up.

Putting ranks in Linguistics or Speak Language implies study of commonly available knowledge. Druidic is "a secret language only know to druids" which they are forbidden from teaching to non-druids. Teaching it to a non-druid loses them all of their druidy goodness, thus why would any druid ever do it? Yes, they physically could. But why would they?

Please, stop trying to give this as the #1 most simple and rules-legal solution.

[ZeroNumerous]

Putting ranks in Linguistics or Speak Language implies study of commonly available knowledge. Druidic is "a secret language only know to druids" which they are forbidden from teaching to non-druids. Teaching it to a non-druid loses them all of their druidy goodness, thus why would any druid ever do it? Yes, they physically could. But why would they?

Please, stop trying to give this as the #1 most simple and rules-legal solution.

It implies nothing of the sort. It's quite explicit: You learn a language. How is not touched upon, nor addressed.

Nonetheless: RAW says Tongues allows you to speak and understand any language.

RAW says that Speak Language allows you to learn any language by spending points in it.

RAW says that Druidic is a language.

Thus: Someone with Tongues can teach someone Speak Language(Druidic). There is no ambiguity whatsoever within this line of events.

[Jack_Simth]

Putting ranks in Linguistics or Speak Language implies study of commonly available knowledge. Druidic is "a secret language only know to druids" which they are forbidden from teaching to non-druids. Teaching it to a non-druid loses them all of their druidy goodness, thus why would any druid ever do it? Yes, they physically could. But why would they?

Please, stop trying to give this as the #1 most simple and rules-legal solution.
I'm not exactly saying it's the number 1. Tongues can do it, too - and it has the same duration in both Pathfinder and 3.5 - ten minutes/level. Both permit it to be made permanent. So if you need an excuse for taking the language when you're grabbing skills during level up, you can say you chatted up someone with Tongues and asked them about it. Or you can say you were spying on a Druid enclave for a while (that's actually one of the ways people can pick up languages in real life - observing people using it).

And there's a lot of reasons why a Druid might do so. Perhaps (s)he got dominated. Perhaps (s)he got bluffed into thinking of the person learning the language was a new initiate. Perhaps it was accidental (children learn a language by being around people who speak it, after all; adults can too).

[Marnath]

she has ranks in Profession (Painter),

Painting is a craft skill, not a profession. So she's going to be less good at it, unless she has a high int too.

[ericgrau]

[Edited out] I got into druidic for a bit but then I realized I don't even see why it matters.

On the matter of profession (painter) vs craft (painting), yes marvelous pigments say "craft" and that's a better fit. But I don't think it matters.