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Grindle
2013-03-09, 11:15 PM
I've started to feel like homebrewing classes that don't have magical/supernatural abilities is pointless. It always seems to result in reactions like "this magical class can do it better" or "this is underpowered compared to these magic-using classes" or "why don't you try using the factotum class?".

Does this have a basis? :smallconfused:

bobthe6th
2013-03-09, 11:30 PM
I've started to feel like homebrewing classes that don't have magical/supernatural abilities is pointless. It always seems to result in reactions like "this magical class can do it better" or "this is underpowered compared to these magic-using classes" or "why don't you try using the factotum class?".

Does this have a basis? :smallconfused:

I mean... my Razor seemed well enough received... and it is straight extraordinary(It does get haste as a self buff, but that just fit.)

I think the issue is a base class needs to be flexible, and "non-magic" classes tends to limit what people will accept. The classic "melee can't have nice things" problem that kills mundane classes like the fighter. They are limited to what you think a top human could do, while magic has no such limits. Getting a guy that stabs things in the face with an axe to be as useful as a buguiler is a pain. Again I bring up the Razor... which is at best a decent scout, not really good out of combat.

Though you should know your goal posts. You want it to be T3? T4? T1? all reasonable options, and allow you to shrug of comments like "this could be done better by a druid/planer shepard with greenbound summoning. Or Pun Pun!" as pointless. Then you can find actual useful comments on balance, and weather you hit your goal.

I hope this helps a bit...:smallsmile:

JoshuaZ
2013-03-09, 11:33 PM
I've started to feel like homebrewing classes that don't have magical/supernatural abilities is pointless. It always seems to result in reactions like "this magical class can do it better" or "this is underpowered compared to these magic-using classes" or "why don't you try using the factotum class?".

Does this have a basis? :smallconfused:

Are you talking about specifically 3.5?

There are I think a few issues going on here:

First, Factotum really can be used for a large variety of character ideas, and what you can't do that's mundane with factotum can probably be done with Tome of Battle.

Second, power imbalance is a serious issue, if I make a T5 mundane class, that's just not going to go well in a campaign with T2 classes. So understanding the relative balance is important.

Third, Related to the above, many attempts at mundane classes claim that they are drastically increasing their Tier (you see this most often with fighter and monk fixes).Some of those fixes are quite good. But they are pretty much never bumping above T3. That's ok, but it does mean when someone says they have a T2 or T1 fighter, informing them that it really isn't, is an important thing to do.

At this point it is also worth noting that one can make almost any character idea with the standard classes and a small number of homebrew base classes. So at that level, full out base classes may not accomplish much at this point, and are I suspect unlikely to get as much attention as others unless they do something mechanically and novel like Silva Stormrage's Plague Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266947), or Lix Lorn's Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253053).

Frathe
2013-03-09, 11:54 PM
So at that level, full out base classes may not accomplish much at this point, and are I suspect unlikely to get as much attention as others unless they do something mechanically and novel like Silva Stormrage's Plague Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266947), or Lix Lorn's Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253053).

Grindle's nonmagical class was a Detective base class. It had (well, still has) several entirely new subsystems for things like forensics. He feels like it's pointless because few people will PEACH the most recent version and the one who did wanted to give it most of the abilities of a factotum.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-09, 11:58 PM
I've started to feel like homebrewing classes that don't have magical/supernatural abilities is pointless. It always seems to result in reactions like "this magical class can do it better" or "this is underpowered compared to these magic-using classes" or "why don't you try using the factotum class?".

Does this have a basis? :smallconfused:

The key is niche. If it's possible for an existing base class-- especially a well-regarded one-- to fill the niche you're trying to fill easily (such as a factotum replacing a skill specialist), well...

Mundane classes can be cool, but the important thing is that you, as the 'brewer, can't fall prey to the "mundanes can't have nice things" approach.

JoshuaZ
2013-03-10, 12:04 AM
Grindle's nonmagical class was a Detective base class. It had (well, still has) several entirely new subsystems for things like forensics. He feels like it's pointless because few people will PEACH the most recent version and the one who did wanted to give it most of the abilities of a factotum.

Oh. Hmm, looking at the class in question now.

Devils_Advocate
2013-03-10, 12:42 AM
Playing a character with superpowers seems to be more appealing than playing a character without superpowers to most people. I can see Batman going to the guy who drew the short straw in a group playing a Justice League game. Meaning that, yes, someone opted for Aquaman over Batman. Frickin' Aquaman.

If you'd choose Batman over Superman, more power to ya, but the ability to resist the allure of super speed, flight, and laser eye beams seems to be fairly rare. In a game where those things are available, mind. People seem to be a lot more comfortable playing normal humans in games where laser eye beams are not an option. How much sense am I making?

Durazno
2013-03-10, 04:07 AM
Quite a lot of sense, if you leave out the disrespect for Aquaman. :smallannoyed::smalltongue:

And it's less a matter of always wanting to have superpowers than it's a matter of not wanting to spend a whole combat encounter grappling with one Zargon Warrior while your friends are knocking six of them out every round with atomic death rays and earth-rending punches. You'd almost certainly have things you're good at, but they would almost necessarily not come up at the same time as the situations that make your allies happy.

Wargamer
2013-03-10, 06:24 AM
I'm pretty sure I could homebrew a melee class without supernatural abilities that could utterly obliterate every caster in the game; a Khorne Berserker! "Sorry, Wizard, but the Blood God won't let you cast spells at me! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"

Sgt. Cookie
2013-03-10, 07:13 AM
@Wargamer: You may want to have a look at my Gladiator class. Actualy hitting him with a spell is hard, making it stick? Harder. Not to mention he's a mundane combat MONSTER.

Razanir
2013-03-10, 10:11 AM
A few possible reasons:
1) Improvements. A Tier 3/4 Monk will stand up much better against Tiers 1/2 than Tier 5
2) New niches. Things that would be interesting to see in their own classes, even if a magic-user could do the same thing
2a) And sometimes, it would be complicated for a magic-user to do the same. See the barbarian for an example
3) The offending magic-users might not be allowed. I always run SRD-only because I don't have any splatbooks. So things like the factotum don't even exist
4) Overhaul systems. I used the Generic Class 2.0 to make 9 classes for people to choose from, and at least half are non-magical

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-03-10, 10:58 AM
I'm pretty sure I could homebrew a melee class without supernatural abilities that could utterly obliterate every caster in the game; a Khorne Berserker! "Sorry, Wizard, but the Blood God won't let you cast spells at me! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"

Easy to do. Likely still low Tier though, and probably full of passive blanket immunities. That's the problem. "Able to beat up a caster" is bou a lot more than raw power and defenses: you have to have a simple and effective response to most/any possible encounter edited you can compete with the Wizard.

Razanir
2013-03-10, 11:02 AM
I'm pretty sure I could homebrew a melee class without supernatural abilities that could utterly obliterate every caster in the game; a Khorne Berserker! "Sorry, Wizard, but the Blood Cat God won't let you cast spells at me! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE!"

A correction based off the best thread derail I've seen in the Playground

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-03-10, 12:22 PM
To answer the original question: it tends to be assume that a homebrew class is tryin to be the best it can in it's given area of expertise unless otherwise stated. Saying something akin to "I'm aiming for a solid Tier 3-4: I want this to be effective and able to contribute, but I'm not trying to compete with Tier 1 classes" can help focus the comments away from "but casters do X Y and Z better." With Martial classes you still have the inevitable ToB issue, but matching ToB is a lot easier than matching casters.

Yitzi
2013-03-10, 12:41 PM
There are three basic approaches to homebrewing non-magical classes:
1. Attempt to make something that can compete with the wizard and cleric without being or feeling magical. This is what gets the responses you describe.
2. Attempt to make something that is "nonmagical" but looks suspiciously like magical classes. This is what tends to lead to arguments about ToB.
3. Attempt to make something that can't compete with the wizard and cleric as written, knows that it can't, and is perfectly happy with that (it often comes with changes to, or replacements for, the more powerful magical classes.) I think that's the approach of a lot of such homebrewing on this board; the goal is tier 3-4, and in tier 3-4 the fact that a tier 1 class can do it better isn't really a problem.

Xeratos
2013-03-10, 01:24 PM
3) The offending magic-users might not be allowed. I always run SRD-only because I don't have any splatbooks. So things like the factotum don't even

Internet high-five for no splatbooks. Not to defend the core set's "balance," but I find the rule set to be complicated enough already without adding in dozens of new classes and spells which almost invariably seem to be authored by people who's primary design goal seems to be "make core classes obsolete." I mean, I get it. No one wants to buy a book that features a wizard, only not quite as good. As far as I'm concerned, the power spiral rests more on the poor foundation of balance presented in core books than on anything else, but that's a completely different topic.

bobthe6th
2013-03-10, 01:31 PM
Internet high-five for no splatbooks. Not to defend the core set's "balance," but I find the rule set to be complicated enough already without adding in dozens of new classes and spells which almost invariably seem to be authored by people who's primary design goal seems to be "make core classes obsolete." I mean, I get it. No one wants to buy a book that features a wizard, only not quite as good. As far as I'm concerned, the power spiral rests more on the poor foundation of balance presented in core books than on anything else, but that's a completely different topic.

I would argue more for a edited down version of the entire rule set then core. Like rather then just the core spells, an edited down collection of all the spells that are worthwhile.

Xeratos
2013-03-10, 04:30 PM
If they just cherry picked all their splatbooks and compiled them into a new core though, think of all the money they'd be losing! I've got nothing against homebrew, but I can't justify paying hundreds of dollars for a few extra books with some new rules, spells, classes, etc. And I know there are other... ahem... less than honest alternatives for obtaining some of this stuff, but I personally am not interested in such files.

Beyond that, I find it easier to play a game if everyone at the table is using the same books. I like to be familiar with the source material my players are using when I'm running the game, and I feel more annoyed than anything of someone shows up playing some fancy new base class out of a book I've never heard of that's clearly superior in every way to my normal old hum drum fighter.