Getting into Fochlucan Lyrist as early as possible.

[Yerrik]

Is there any way to get into this prestige class before level 10? Outside of DM fiat I didn't see away around the Perform(Stringed instrument) 13 ranks cap and wondered if I was missing something.

[Coidzor]

The feat Primary Contact from Cityscape(P. 61) gives you a bonus rank that takes you above your normal maximum. Requires the Favored in Guild feat from the same book and page.

So that's two feats for one level earlier in a generally feat-intensive build.

Greenwhisperer (Dragon #311) can help alleviate not being able to get into Fochlucan Lyrist early a bit, except for the evasion requirement of Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Ellrin]

There are two permanent ways I know of to increase your maximum skill ranks. The first is Primary Contact, a feat from Cityscape that gives you a bonus skill rank in a skill associated with the organization your contact belongs to, even if that puts you above your normal maximum. I don't know if that lets you stay above your maximum skill ranks as you continue to level up, though, and it requires the Favored feat as a prerequisite.

(EDIT: Swordsaged)

The second, and more certain method, are bloodlines--for every "level" of bloodline you take, your maximum skill rank increases by one. If you have a major bloodline, you get two "levels" of bloodline before level 10, meaning you can have 13 skill ranks in a given class skill (provided you have enough skill points) by level 8.

[Gotterdammerung]

There are two permanent ways I know of to increase your maximum skill ranks. The first is Primary Contact, a feat from Cityscape that gives you a bonus skill rank in a skill associated with the organization your contact belongs to, even if that puts you above your normal maximum. I don't know if that lets you stay above your maximum skill ranks as you continue to level up, though, and it requires the Favored feat as a prerequisite.

(EDIT: Swordsaged)

The second, and more certain method, are bloodlines--for every "level" of bloodline you take, your maximum skill rank increases by one. If you have a major bloodline, you get two "levels" of bloodline before level 10, meaning you can have 13 skill ranks in a given class skill (provided you have enough skill points) by level 8.

Bloodlines aren't exactly "early entry" though since you have to take a level of bloodline to get the benefits. By that logic, every class ever does the same thing.


there are 3 ways that i know of.

1. is the cityscape contact feat previously mentioned.

2. is to polymorph into a dusk giant. then gain some temporary hit dice via there ex ability. Then cast or have someone else cast psychic reformation on you. Then reallocate your permanent skill points with the new higher hit dice cap (don't use the skill points from the temporary hit dice as they will leave when polymorph ends). When polymorph ends your skill point cap will go back down to normal but the skills you moved around won't change and you will still gain the benefit of them.

3. requires you to have a 9th lvl bard with song of the heart feat and the words of creation feat. This gives him bonus hit dice of +6 with his inspire greatness ability. Inspire greatness on the target, and then psychic reformation to re-allocate his skill points according to his new HD.

[Ellrin]

Bloodlines aren't exactly "early entry" though since you have to take a level of bloodline to get the benefits. By that logic, every class ever does the same thing.

The thing with bloodline "levels," though, is they aren't actual levels. Sure it requires experience to progress them, and that slows you down, but they don't increase your character level, HD, or effective character level, and they cost the same amount of experience that your next level will, anyway, so you can always more or less catch up to the rest of your party. Therefore, while it may take more time to get to level 8, it's not going to take as long as it would take to get to level 10, and in either case you're still only 8th character level, giving you 12 more before you level cap (or before epic, whatever). Bloodlines and primary contact are by far the least cheesy ways to get early entry for classes with skill rank requirements, and bloodlines does it better with tons of benefits to boot (and costing a mere 84K experience points maximum).

[Gotterdammerung]

The thing with bloodline "levels," though, is they aren't actual levels. Sure it requires experience to progress them, and that slows you down, but they don't increase your character level, HD, or effective character level, and they cost the same amount of experience that your next level will, anyway, so you can always more or less catch up to the rest of your party. Therefore, while it may take more time to get to level 8, it's not going to take as long as it would take to get to level 10, and in either case you're still only 8th character level, giving you 12 more before you level cap (or before epic, whatever). Bloodlines and primary contact are by far the least cheesy ways to get early entry for classes with skill rank requirements, and bloodlines does it better with tons of benefits to boot (and costing a mere 84K experience points maximum).

That is certainly one possible interpretation for bloodlines. But it is just as cheezy as the psychic reformation tricks. And iliithid savant rules them all with supremacy.

Primary contact is pretty much the only upstanding way to get skills above the HD cap.

[Ellrin]

That is certainly one possible interpretation for bloodlines. But it is just as cheezy as the psychic reformation tricks. And iliithid savant rules them all with supremacy.

Primary contact is pretty much the only upstanding way to get skills above the HD cap.

Interpretation? It says it plain as day right there in the SRD:


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

[...]

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

[Darius Kane]

So it's basically a sort of LA, but counts for class abilities and skill ranks.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yeh, I have the book. And that wall of text can be interpreted other ways. Your way is one of them. But to discuss these other interpretations would be to hi-jack this thread. And I would rather not do that.

For the record, I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying, there are multiple right's in this situation.

[Ellrin]

Maybe you could PM me a link where it is discussed, then, because that really seems like one of the most straightforward explanations of how an option is supposed to work in 3e to me.

But I suppose that is enough for this thread.

[Yerrik]

Well thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate the help.