Exalted - Looking for help with ... everything, really

[Pherinos]

I’m not exactly new to the Exalted. I own my fair share of the sourcebooks and have even, very briefly, taken part in a game that was certainly supposed to be new-player friendly. My understanding of the setting and its factions is solid enough, from my limited perspective, and I generally don’t have too much difficulty making my ideas fit within the boundaries of Creation. The main problem is that I not only lack a decent understanding of the game, I find the actual metagame behind it all both impenetrable and a little scary. Even character creation is too much for me because I simply don’t know how I should go about making a PC without wasting my dots or choosing any number of charms that are impractical if not outright useless.

I’ve made lots of indirect efforts over the last year or so to supplement my knowledge of the game, crib ideas from other players and generally glean some sort of indirect understanding, but I honestly find myself no better off than I was when I first picked up one of the books. I’m currently working on creating a character purely for the sake of breathing life into a concept, rather than for an actual game, and I’m still finding that nigh impossible. So many things feel ‘wrong’, if only because I have no idea whether I’m approaching them properly or massively setting back my character by investing in one attribute or charm set over another.

Really, I’m just hoping you people can point me in the direction of somewhere that offers a genuinely newbie-friendly guide which points out the pitfalls in the system, explains what you need to do to avoid them and tells you just why they’re a problem in the first place. As I currently understand it, Exalted seems a massively complex game that places a huge burden of knowledge on players if they want to create characters who are actually good at their jobs. I’ve got a billion different options in front of me (That play heavily off one-another) and somehow I’m just supposed to know which I should be taking, all without the benefit of experience.

Anything you can offer me would be very much appreciated because I’m absolutely stumped right now. Thanks.

(If it helps put things into context, the system(s) I’m most familiar with are those of the Warhammer 40k line – Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch)

[Lord Raziere]

I have the exact same problem. the mechanics weigh things down so heavily that its kinda hard to wrap your head around stuff, even setting things.

my recommendation? get Exalted third edition instead, which will slim down the system by a lot and generally make it a LOT better. its coming out soon, as in it was literally estimated to come out last month, in late february.

White Wolf, not known for being on time though…

but really, Exalted 2e…just full of brokenness…with 3e so close….I'm not sure whether to catch you up or to just say "you don't want to know, wait for 3e and get that." so as to spare you the pain...

[Tavar]

There is not really a noon friendly guide to 2ed, not in the manner you seem to desire. Third edition(which is supposed to be released soon) might do a better job.

If you have an idea in mind, however, people might be able to help you.

[Ifni]

I don't have experience with any of the systems you're familiar with, so I'm not sure how much help this'll be, but I found this article (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Exalted_201_Second_Edition_Combat) very helpful as an explanation of Exalted combat mechanics. It has examples.

Aside from that my strategy when learning the system was mostly to (a) recognize that I was going to make mistakes and that was fine, if it was really upsetting me I could always talk to the ST and ask about reshuffling things a little, (b) remember that I don't need (or probably want) to play perfectly optimal characters, (c) ignore complex subsystems like sorcery and crafting and mass combat until I was forced to learn about them in play.

In general, figure out what pools you're likely to be rolling a lot; the higher they are the better. In particular, the vast majority of your combat rolls (and frequently also combat defenses) will be Dexterity + your main combat Ability, so it's usually a good idea for that one to be as high as possible (i.e. Dex 5 + Ability 5 + 3-dot specialty). You can certainly play a character who doesn't do this, but if you just want effectiveness, it's generally a good use of your points, because this is the dicepool that you roll over and over again in high-stakes situations.

I was once linked to a shortlist of useful starting Charms (I think by aetherialdawn?) but I can't find it now, and it was also for 2e rather than 2.5. There is a basic principle that defensive combat charms are generally more important than offensive combat charms - you can be a credible threat with no offensive charms whatsoever, but there are a number of things that can kill you pretty quickly if you don't have appropriate defenses. That said, just playing and seeing what happens can be the best way to figure this out; unless your ST is being very nasty they shouldn't instakill you for not having the right Charm.

(In 2e the rule was "get a perfect defense, a way to negate surprise, and a way to break flurries". In 2.5 the rule is more "have good DVs so you get hit less, good armor for when you do get hit, defenses against Bad Stuff like Shaping/Crippling effects, and ideally a perfect defense for emergencies".)

And as others have said... 3e is meant to be coming out pretty soon, so you might want to wait for that rather than invest a lot of time in learning 2e/2.5.

[Asmodai]

I would suggest getting First Edition. You can get it stupidly cheaply and it works way better out of the box then the Second edition. To start properly with the second edition you need to get a grip of the 300 pages of errata for it to be workable, and even then it's not ideal.

The third edition that should be sorting our woes will be out later this year. The expected date is by mid 2013.

[Lord Raziere]

Asmodai, don't jinx the release dates! its late enough as it is! :smallmad:

[TimeWizard]

Pherinos, do you have a character concept or build in mind? We playgrounders love building characters. It's literally our second favorite activity*.


*The first is arguing, but that's debatable.

[Pherinos]

As of late I've had my sights on converting a particular character over to Exalted's systems and that's led me towards making a deathknight ... who may well end up turning renegade when she comes to her senses.

The very, very short version places them as a career soldier who dies a slow and lingering death from poison/magic/infection in the aftermath of a battle which saw the rest of their unit wiped out by friendly fire/abandonment. Feverish delirium and overbearing grief curdles their sense of honour, and anger over the injustice they and theirs suffered, into a nihilistic hatred of the injustice and lies that make up the fabric of Creation's society. There is no honour in life if your sole reason for living is to be exploited by your 'betters'; there is no glory in a life spent beneath the yoke. Better to accept the release of oblivion than suffer at the whims of hungry gods and selfish mortals.

Naturally, I think it's all too likely that she'll eventually come to her senses and realise that death isn't a kinder master, that her new 'friends' care little for her sense of honour and that the price of oblivion is too steep, even for one willing to bear all the sorrows of the world. That's a long way off, of course.

So yeah:

Dusk Caste with a penchant for melee (esp. big swords), a lifetime as a soldier of some repute and a desire to make the world a ... better place?

[Asmodai]

Asmodai, don't jinx the release dates! its late enough as it is! :smallmad:

Razi, you're on the Exalted forums... It's there in plain sight. The book will be out sometime in the first half of 2013. It has been moved from February for months now. We can expect the Kickstarter in the next two weeks or so, but we won't see the game before May/June I'd say. (and even then i doubt it'll be more then the pdf, looking at how W20 went)

[illyrus]

I liked this interactive tutorial for 2.5 Exalted: http://jyenicolson.net/exalted/

It doesn't follow the rules 100% (and notes when it steps away from them) but generally did a good job of showing me how the basic mechanics worked.

And yeah, waiting for 3E may be the way to go.

[Pherinos]

I actually went through that recently and, thanks to sheer fatigue from all the combat, had managed to miss the advice for character creation attached to the tail end. Thanks for bringing that back to my attention.

As for waiting for the next edition: The irksome thing is that Solars are probably the branch of exalts that interest me the least. Shame.

[TimeWizard]

WORDS!

The problem with Deathknights in story isn't finding someone who hates all life and wants to end the world, it's finding someone who hates all life and wants to end the world who's also a fanatic nihilist badass. So yeah, good start. Also, Here's (http://anathema.github.com/) some help on character building. it's not the cleanest looking program, but it works alright.

[TheOOB]

Your best bet it to wait for 3e, with is in the works last I checked.

[Lord Raziere]

what really? pushed back again?

meh. wait is getting too long. if it won't be before may or june… then I have other things to go work on. I thought it was going to be imminent. don't have time to discuss this if it ain't.

[Asmodai]

what really? pushed back again?

meh. wait is getting too long. if it won't be before may or june… then I have other things to go work on. I thought it was going to be imminent. don't have time to discuss this if it ain't.

It was moved in late December, early January... so it's nothing new, really.

[Jerthanis]

I got pretty well turned off 3e when one of its writers told me that their design goal is to make the world bigger and less defined, and those aspects that are better defined are merely there to introduce cool setpieces or fantastic high-energy adventure and that they are going to specifically avoid the more human-level concerns and details of Antrhopological details, religion, culture, and trade that I personally think are the things that made Exalted a game of unique depth and not Generic Fantasy Superhero Anime Game (tm).

Personally, I'd suggest finding Exalted hacks out there that convert it to FATE or simply use whatever your favorite system is and run it like an Exalted-alike, adapting Exalted setting to the concepts of that system. I heard one really intriguing Exalted-alike setting (By Weimann IIRC) that used D&D to model the Exalted setting, and the adaptations to make system and setting agree actually made a kind of fresh look at the Exalted world.

Alternatively, I hear that 1st Edition Exalted actually had a much better system overall than 2nd edition. I played little enough 1st Edition and long enough ago that I honestly couldn't tell you if it was true, but it is a thing I have heard that 1st Edition was at least workable as a system.

But the last thing I would suggest is actually running Exalted using Exalted 2nd Edition.

[Asmodai]

I got pretty well turned off 3e when one of its writers told me that their design goal is to make the world bigger and less defined, and those aspects that are better defined are merely there to introduce cool setpieces or fantastic high-energy adventure and that they are going to specifically avoid the more human-level concerns and details of Antrhopological details, religion, culture, and trade that I personally think are the things that made Exalted a game of unique depth and not Generic Fantasy Superhero Anime Game (tm).

That's pretty much not the opposite of what the Devs are focusing on. They want to focus the game more on the world, with charms that directly work on your studying and integrating yourself into local cultures. I would suggest you look up more on the dev commentary. These are after all the same people that brought us Master of Jade and that are bringing us Dean Shomshak back for setting books.

And yes, First Edition does have its issues, but it's not as horrible as 2nd edition got. I've been practicaly running that for most of 2nd ed's tenure.

[Jerthanis]

That's pretty much not the opposite of what the Devs are focusing on. They want to focus the game more on the world, with charms that directly work on your studying and integrating yourself into local cultures. I would suggest you look up more on the dev commentary. These are after all the same people that brought us Master of Jade and that are bringing us Dean Shomshak back for setting books.


Really? Strange! Because I distinctly remember someone saying that the big problem with 2nd edition setting books was that it focused so much on specifying the means of food production of its population centers... that details like this are a waste of wordcount and that it is simultaneously a straightjacket that keeps individual STs from bringing their own paintbrush to the setting. I was told point blank that things like water recycling in Gem and mushroom farming in Gethamane would be specifically the type of information NOT included in setting information in 3rd edition. If they've reversed their position, or if I misunderstood what this writer was trying to get at, I'd be interested to hear about this.

Since I've not really followed Exalted 3rd edition since this episode, I'm afraid I'm not sure where to look for such information, is there a link to relevant info, or would my best bet be just reading the Exalted General Discussion threads here?

[Asmodai]

Uh. From what I've seen here, your local threads on GitP are rather lacking in information. The threads on White Wolf are probably the single biggest chunk of Developer info you can find, but they are swimming in a cesspool of bile and speculation of our own making. They're not very friendly to the casual observer.

There is this, though, if you feel like reading what they have been up to:
http://nishkriya.theanathema.com/

It's a bot that collects all the dev comments and only their comments on the Exalted forums. It might be informative if you have the time to look at it. When you get to the posts where the Devs get snarky or flippant, I can assure you it's deserved as we literally have 200-1000 posts per thread involving the devs :P

[Tavar]

Really? Strange! Because I distinctly remember someone saying that the big problem with 2nd edition setting books was that it focused so much on specifying the means of food production of its population centers... that details like this are a waste of wordcount and that it is simultaneously a straightjacket that keeps individual STs from bringing their own paintbrush to the setting. I was told point blank that things like water recycling in Gem and mushroom farming in Gethamane would be specifically the type of information NOT included in setting information in 3rd edition. If they've reversed their position, or if I misunderstood what this writer was trying to get at, I'd be interested to hear about this.

I think their position is that some human level concerns aren't going to be detailed, while others will be.

Basically, conservation of detail, allowing them to touch more areas, rather than 5 or six small, hyperdefined areas with 90% of the world undefined.

[Asmodai]

Here's an example of the new charms and what I mean...


Skillful Imposition Method

Cost: 6m; Mins: Socialize 3, Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Mastery of Small Manners

People are products of their environment. The Solar can bend an individual to his will by exploiting the mores, beliefs, and customs that color that persons background. This Charm may supplement any social action that plays on a belief, law, custom, or social taboo held by a group to which the target belongs. The social action treats the individual as having a minor Intimacy dedicated to that social element, even if he doesn't.

For example, a Solar attempts to convince a barbarian living in a cave high in the mountains to give him shelter from a coming storm. Knowing that the barbarian's people have a strong custom of hospitality in the face of danger, the Solar uses this Charm while citing the custom; even if the barbarian doesn't care about his people's customs, he treats the Solar's request as though it is exploiting a minor Principle of hospitality must be offered in the face of danger. Attempting to use the Charm in the same way on a Guild merchant from Nexus would be fruitless, however, as neither Nexus nor the Guild practices any hospitality customs.

[Andreaz]

I think their position is that some human level concerns aren't going to be detailed, while others will be.

Basically, conservation of detail, allowing them to touch more areas, rather than 5 or six small, hyperdefined areas with 90% of the world undefined.

And just as importantly, one of the problems was not such fleshing of the setting, but the presentation. It should feel less like reading a wiki and more like reading a famous traveller's logs.

[Jerthanis]

And just as importantly, one of the problems was not such fleshing of the setting, but the presentation. It should feel less like reading a wiki and more like reading a famous traveller's logs.

That sounds fantastically less useful as a ST. I don't want to be entertained, I need information quickly and easily.

That precise reason is why I hated oldschool World of Darkness books like the ...By Night books. I'm trying to plan and run a game, not read your fiction.

So I see they're making the scale smaller (bigger?) so that Creation becomes even larger! That's the wrong direction in my opinion. In 2nd edition, if you wanted to walk from Chiaroscuro to neighboring Paragon without magical assistance, you were looking at 600 miles, taking you between a month and three months of travel. The Inland Sea at its narrowest point is 400 miles wide. As a comparison, the widest part of the Aegean sea, the setting of the Odyssey is around 150-200 miles wide. The Western Continents are already 3000 miles from the Blessed Isle, a distance that Iron Age ships couldn't traverse even if they had the storage space to fit all the food the crew would need. I say the Western Continents and not Islands because the biggest one is about the size of Greenland, perhaps a little smaller. (I know Greenland isn't a continent, I'm just saying, those western islands ain't no Carribean)

I understand they're not going to continue the puzzling trend of writing these nations as if they're neighbors to every other dot in their Direction. The trouble still is if you get a plot hook that will take you to the North when you're currently in the East you'll realize that any unmarried mortals you leave behind will probably be sending their second child off to secondary school by the time you'll get back. Also, the idea of the Realm being a singular entity with power throughout the world gets that much more monolithic when the world scales up.

[Tavar]

That's a pretty big middle you're excluding there(note the words less and more; that implies degree, not total conversion).

There's also the fact that quite a bit of that information isn't really that useful. I mean, oh, if they gave that level for the entire setting? Every place? Then I could see it being useful. But, with the system you espouse they're only going to touch on a vanishingly small fraction of the setting. So you still end up having to fabricate out of whole cloth. It also allows for more individual adjustment to the setting(yes, yes, rule 0, but I've noticed many people don't like to do that, but if it's blank defining it incurs no problem).

But, this method will likely convey the tone of the setting better(more myth, less wikipedia). And keeping in mind that setting books are not ST only, I can't see why this is a bad idea.



So I see they're making the scale smaller (bigger?) so that Creation becomes even larger! That's the wrong direction in my opinion. In 2nd edition, if you wanted to walk from Chiaroscuro to neighboring Paragon without magical assistance, you were looking at 600 miles, taking you between a month and three months of travel. The Inland Sea at its narrowest point is 400 miles wide. As a comparison, the widest part of the Aegean sea, the setting of the Odyssey is around 150-200 miles wide.
Not entirely sure what you mean here.

The Western Continents are already 3000 miles from the Blessed Isle, a distance that Iron Age ships couldn't traverse even if they had the storage space to fit all the food the crew would need. I say the Western Continents and not Islands because the biggest one is about the size of Greenland, perhaps a little smaller. (I know Greenland isn't a continent, I'm just saying, those western islands ain't no Carribean)
This assumes no islands between the BI and the Western Areas. Something explicitly noted as false, I believe, at least in regards to 3rd. Maybe 2ed as well.

I understand they're not going to continue the puzzling trend of writing these nations as if they're neighbors to every other dot in their Direction. The trouble still is if you get a plot hook that will take you to the North when you're currently in the East you'll realize that any unmarried mortals you leave behind will probably be sending their second child off to secondary school by the time you'll get back. Also, the idea of the Realm being a singular entity with power throughout the world gets that much more monolithic when the world scales up.

Or you use Supernatural travel methods, and shave those journeys down to days or hours.

And I'm not sure what the issue you're bringing up here is? That Creation is a world, and thus big(much like earth)?

[Plague of Hats]

Really? Strange! Because I distinctly remember someone saying that the big problem with 2nd edition setting books was that it focused so much on specifying the means of food production of its population centers... that details like this are a waste of wordcount and that it is simultaneously a straightjacket that keeps individual STs from bringing their own paintbrush to the setting. I was told point blank that things like water recycling in Gem and mushroom farming in Gethamane would be specifically the type of information NOT included in setting information in 3rd edition. If they've reversed their position, or if I misunderstood what this writer was trying to get at, I'd be interested to hear about this.

Since I've not really followed Exalted 3rd edition since this episode, I'm afraid I'm not sure where to look for such information, is there a link to relevant info, or would my best bet be just reading the Exalted General Discussion threads here?


One of the primary problems with the Terrestrial Compass books is that they have so much obvious filler in them. Even North, the best one. That stuff about Gethamane's mushroom farms could have been a <200 word paragraph, but it goes on for over 400 words. This is very clearly a function of the "explore one place thoroughly, and fill a chapter with 30k words of that" as opposed to the Scavenger Sons philosophy, which was "make up new and exciting places, tell me what's interesting about them, and then move on to the next place." Then there's the following section on Hunting and Gathering, which is almost 400 words of "yep, this big city also relies on herd animals and mining." Gee, thanks book! You could've introduced me to the broad key points of an entirely new, exotic civilization, but nope! You told me "cities need food" for almost 1k words.

Don't worry, we want to give you lots of interesting information about far-flung places. We just don't want to tell you about whether their local traffic system uses the right or left side of the street.

It turns out "they spent too much word count on X" sounds like "they shouldn't spend any word count on X" to a lot of people.

http://i.imgur.com/3MwHo6P.jpg

[Jerthanis]

It turns out "they spent too much word count on X" sounds like "they shouldn't spend any word count on X" to a lot of people.


It turns out that when you call out anthropological details of civilizations as a waste of wordcount as the primary problem of a series of books detailing the setting, it gets taken to mean that anthropological details of civilizations will not be a primary focus of any future setting information. When called out as the primary problem that 400 words are used on a specific detail when my brief "Holy crap Creation is already huge" rant is 250 words, it makes me think that it's going to be written in the form of "They herd sheep" being more than enough info on how a city of millions gets fed.

[Tavar]

It turns out that when you call out anthropological details of civilizations as a waste of wordcount as the primary problem of a series of books detailing the setting, it gets taken to mean that anthropological details of civilizations will not be a primary focus of any future setting information. When called out as the primary problem that 400 words are used on a specific detail when my brief "Holy crap Creation is already huge" rant is 250 words, it makes me think that it's going to be written in the form of "They herd sheep" being more than enough info on how a city of millions gets fed.

It turns out that when you refuse to read the words on the page, you don't actually seem to read the words. Notice that in the passage, he does not say those details are a waste, he says the length it goes into those details is a waste.

And what do you want? A treatise on sheep farming? If you really need that information, you'll probably be just as well served by going to Wikipedia. Rather than a fictional game publication. If you mean you want them to go into more detail about how cities feed themselves in general...farming and trade. They can likely mention major crops in the area, but beyond that, what's the point? What's added by exploring the topic in depth?

And, note that your rant kinda misses the point about Creation's size. It's not the physical size itself that's the issue, it's the perception that there are, like, 5 places of importance in each direction. That shrinks the world down, and fast.

[Jerthanis]

I'm taking my response to PMs to avoid further derailment. I apologize.

If you really do wish to run Exalted using Exalted 2nd Edition's system, I would suggest first reading the excellent 201 Exalted Combat primer linked by Ifni earlier in the thread and perhaps the 203 Social Combat primer available by a link at the bottom of the 201 page. Afterwards, I would suggest finding a night you and your group are willing to sink some time into messing around with the system, creating joke characters and putting them into simple situations. I suggest this because it seems mostly like you've struck the paralyzation of choice offered along with the fact that abilities don't always fit your initial concepts of what these characters are capable of. I think the first issue of paralyzation of choice would be served by making the consequences of those choices less than far reaching or significant and the second will be solved by experience with adjusting both expectations and mechanical representation to suit each other more closely.

Personally, my first Solar traded every single starting charm for more Sorcery spells. My second used a nonmagical dagger as a character who was supposed to be a melee killing machine. I learned from the first the relationship of Sorcery to Charms in terms of what each did and the second I learned that this game isn't about trading size for speed... Daiklaives aren't "slow and inelegant", they're both huge AND elegant.

Essentially there's no substitute for experience when it comes to the predicament of learning a new system as crunchy as Exalted.

[Hopeless]

Apologies for the interruption but I was wondering has anyone run across anything like a character creation example for the Sidereals?

Have both 1st and 2nd edition of this and it still doesn't make sense to me, I'm at the stage where I think I'm going to pick up a copy of Mage the Asension and use their rules for colleges instead of whats in Exalted!

Has this been addressed anywhere?

Have to say this thread has got me interested in Exalted again anyone have a link to the Keychain of Creation webcomic since I recall a pretty good concept for a Deathknight in that series?

[Asmodai]

What's confusing you? I'm pretty well versed in the Sidereals?

[Pherinos]

Afterwards, I would suggest finding a night you and your group are willing to sink some time into messing around with the system, creating joke characters and putting them into simple situations. I suggest this because it seems mostly like you've struck the paralyzation of choice offered along with the fact that abilities don't always fit your initial concepts of what these characters are capable of. I think the first issue of paralyzation of choice would be served by making the consequences of those choices less than far reaching or significant and the second will be solved by experience with adjusting both expectations and mechanical representation to suit each other more closely.

[...]

Essentially there's no substitute for experience when it comes to the predicament of learning a new system as crunchy as Exalted.

I'm realising now that I really could've made my intents far clearer when I first put this thread together. While I certainly lack a solid grasp of Exalted's systems, my main focus here was on finding some help to realise a character concept and nothing more. I'm not designing an exalt for a real game, or to play with other people, but because I had an idea I wanted to work with and would like to see just how they would come together as a new Abyssal. Certainly gaining familiarity with the system is a big part of this, but I can't imagine I'll actually be doing anything with this character any time soon, if ever in, this edition.

I came to you guys because I both thought you might be able to help me with the game as a whole and because I hoped you could make up for my knowledge-gap and give me some solid recommendations for said character. All I'm really after is a solid Dusk caste Abyssal and some explanations as to why the choices that made them up are decent ones. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

Even if I have to wait for the third edition to actually play the game accessible, I'd still like to have a written-up version of what this character's starting power level would be so I can draw on it in the future.

[TheCountAlucard]

Go with an Abyssal who dual-wields Exceptional Flame Pieces and wears a red coat of Silken Armor. Blasts of fire that scream like the damned are sure to please, especially since the range is so compatible with Elegant Executioner Stance. Be sure and stock up on Resistance Charms so you can laugh at folks who can't stand up after taking crippling injuries, and Dodge Charms for ephemeral disappearing tricks.

No, this doesn't resemble anything! And I certainly haven't thought about this before!

A little more seriously, though, it's really hard to go wrong with Melee Charms, especially as of the 2.5 errata.

[Pherinos]

As of late I've had my sights on converting a particular character over to Exalted's systems and that's led me towards making a deathknight ... who may well end up turning renegade when she comes to her senses.

The very, very short version places them as a career soldier who dies a slow and lingering death from poison/magic/infection in the aftermath of a battle which saw the rest of their unit wiped out by friendly fire/abandonment. Feverish delirium and overbearing grief curdles their sense of honour, and anger over the injustice they and theirs suffered, into a nihilistic hatred of the injustice and lies that make up the fabric of Creation's society. There is no honour in life if your sole reason for living is to be exploited by your 'betters'; there is no glory in a life spent beneath the yoke. Better to accept the release of oblivion than suffer at the whims of hungry gods and selfish mortals.

Naturally, I think it's all too likely that she'll eventually come to her senses and realise that death isn't a kinder master, that her new 'friends' care little for her sense of honour and that the price of oblivion is too steep, even for one willing to bear all the sorrows of the world. That's a long way off, of course.

So yeah:

Dusk Caste with a penchant for melee (esp. big swords), a lifetime as a soldier of some repute and a desire to make the world a ... better place?

You're a bit late, my friend.

It's not as if mine isn't heavily inspired by another character, although that's really quite intentional.

[Hopeless]

What's confusing you? I'm pretty well versed in the Sidereals?

Can you explain the Colleges?

Its just that with their ability to obscure themselves the Mage the Ascension version makes more sense than whats in either first or second edition.

My one attempt to try and get one generated as a player character pretty much changed what was listed so that they automatically had one in Secrets to account for their alternative identities or to cover how they can survive being slain as indicated in I think the 2nd edition book.

Can you point me to an actual character generation example or something that explains what they were trying to do with that bit since it really makes no sense to me?

[Andreaz]

Can you explain the Colleges?Each college contains a few concepts that are explored to make Destinies. They basically are an obligatory component of a roll to make the Destiny.
A college may only be used if the Destiny is related in some way.


Destinies are "buffs" or "debuffs" you can put on things, places and people, including yourself. They provide (mis)fortune upon the targets as you desire.

For example, you can put a Destiny on a farmer that amounts to "for as long as he cares for his sick wife, his crops will grow more and better". While he meets such trigger he'll receive a bonus to his activities related to farming.



There's a third type of destiny only sids can use, and they act more or less as disguises. They don't change your appearance, but while you use it people will look at you as they'd look someone that looks the part.
They come with a few magics mostly related to setting up circumstances for you to enact your role, and is effective enough people recognize You+Destiny as the same guy as You without it.
-----------------
I think that's it. Been a while since I last read on astrology.

[Asmodai]

Can you explain the Colleges?

Its just that with their ability to obscure themselves the Mage the Ascension version makes more sense than whats in either first or second edition.

My one attempt to try and get one generated as a player character pretty much changed what was listed so that they automatically had one in Secrets to account for their alternative identities or to cover how they can survive being slain as indicated in I think the 2nd edition book.

Can you point me to an actual character generation example or something that explains what they were trying to do with that bit since it really makes no sense to me?

<rolls up sleeves>

It's very misleading when you start thinking about the colleges in the same manner as you think of the spheres in Mage. It does something completley else then the spheres.

Firstly. As much as i prefer the first edition rules, the rules in second edition are easier to grasp. It'll help you if you start from there just to get the process.

Secondly. Arcane Fate. After they tore down the Solar Empire, the Sidereals broke the constellation of the Mask to erase themselves from memory. Due to this most people just forget who they are unless they have high essence. This is a "feature" for all the Sidereals.

Thirdly, colleges. Take a deep breath. The first thing you need to understand is that they are horribly cost ineffective. The developers shafted the Sidereals in great many ways in second edition, but even in the first edition the ratio between cost and effect were broken. The colleges should be greatly reduced in XP costs to actually be a good choice for the PC's to deeply invest into.

The Colleges are Five areas of each of the Bureaus of Fate. They are tied to the larger context of each of the Abilities. Read up the sutras and what the individual Colleges do, and you'll get the gist.

But what do they actually do with those areas? Simple. They create Fate or they create Resplendent Destinies. Creating Fate sounds totally awesome... but it isn't really. It's essentially giving someone +1/-1 on difficulty rolls to do something within the purview of a college over a period of time. And that's all that colleges do...

... well that and Resplendent Destinies. Resplendent destinies are a way to become the embodiment of a College. They create blank generic identities that last for as long as you give them duration or resplendency points. The thing is, Sidereals use more then the Resplendencies to become other people. Resplendent destinies are a tool. Most of the time the Sids will either create a identity to "wear" and then supplant it with disguise, or just use Arcane Fate to waltz in and out faking who they are. You can carry multiple destinies on yourself (there's a fixed limit, i forget how much exactly), but you can only wear one at a time.

The Resplendent Destinies have an additional trick. You can use their duration points to fuel helpful effects that work similarly to charms. Usually the Sidereals have identities they wear as identities and identities they wear as source of powers. The second group is essentially "burner" identities that only fuel powers. They can use any resplendancy powers from any resplendancy they carry, not just the ones they are wearing.

You need to have at least one point in an individual college just to invoke that, so that and some performance shennanigans is everything you'll need in practice.

If you want to fake death, take a look into charms or resplendancy effects that allow it. You can buy that charm, enter into that college or just go and engineer the situation to look like one of your identities "died". I've actually pulled the "old master that has to be avanged" a couple of times like this :)


Chargen? I'm a bit unclear what exactly you were tying to achieve. If you could clarify where exactly it broke for you, I could help much more. But i can give you some pointers. You do get some college points during chargen (7 total, 4 of which have to come from your own Maiden's Colleges). There's practically no need to go over two in most colleges you'll need at the start, heck take two only in those you expect to use the most, as they don't impact the final effect as much as you'd expect.

If you want to use redundancies better go into Charisma, Performance, Second Performance excellency and World Shaping Artistic Vision in Craft. Get some extraordinary tools, you're a priest already and go to town.

Later on you should expand into more colleges instead of deeper colleges. If you really, really want to do mucking with bonuses/penalties on a larger scale then focus on one or two colleges. Or get a ST that gets this and lowers the costs for you...

The game assumes you made a couple of Resplendent Destinies for yourself during chargen. Make Two or three identities that you have and give them say 2-4 duration points (reasonable even for even the Sidereal that didn't bother with colleges). You should be fine like that.


Tell me what exactly you want to do, and I can help you more :)

[Ifni]

I came to you guys because I both thought you might be able to help me with the game as a whole and because I hoped you could make up for my knowledge-gap and give me some solid recommendations for said character. All I'm really after is a solid Dusk caste Abyssal and some explanations as to why the choices that made them up are decent ones. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

Yeah, that wasn't very clear :smallwink: But okay, I'll give it a shot. Now, keep in mind I have never built or played an Abyssal, or a Dawn caste, but I do seem to be able to make characters who hold their own in games.

So, Dusk caste who likes big swords, lifetime as a soldier, wants to make the world a better place - all this really says to me so far is Melee 5, 3-dot specialty in Swords, get a grand daiklave, put War high, and have a pretty good Compassion score. The rest seems pretty open.

Here's one possible character generation outline. I've tried to explain the reasoning behind everything. I've avoided Abyssal-only charms without Solar mirrors because I don't have experience with how they work. This is not an optimized character, but I think it's competent. Hope it helps.

Attributes:
You want Physical primary, probably Str 3 / Dex 5 / Sta 3. Dex 5 is because your accuracy and defenses are both based on Dex, you need Str 3 for a grand daiklave. Stamina is less important but comes up in several combat defensive rolls and factors into certain Resistance charms.

Secondary category depends on what you want to do, but if you anticipate using Mass Combat a lot, i.e. leading armies of the undead, a very large number of the rolls are based on Charisma - so I would take Social secondary, and Mental tertiary.

In actual social combat, Appearance gets you considerably more bang for your buck than either of the other two stats. This is because Appearance modifiers add or subtract from MDVs directly, whereas Charisma and Manipulation just contribute to dicepools, and 2 extra dice is approximately equivalent to lowering target MDV by 1; also Appearance modifies your MDV in defense (which Charisma/Manipulation won't do unless you're using parry MDV, which is usually significantly worse than dodge MDV). That said, if you're avoiding social combat and just doing social-attribute-based rolls, Charisma will come up a lot more often than Appearance.

Take Manipulation 1 unless you see your character as a manipulative type. Split your six social dots between Charisma and Appearance. Keep in mind that if you want to raise stats with XP later, the more even they are, the worse (because higher stats cost more to raise; if you have App 4 Charisma 4 then you have to pay the 4->5 cost to raise one of them to 5, whereas if you had App 5 Cha 3 you only need to pay the 3->4 cost to end up in the same place).

For the mental attributes - Wits adds to your Join Battle pool. Perception and Intelligence seem to come up more often in non-combat dicepools. 2 is human average; I usually end up going with 2/2/3 when Mental is my tertiary category (I usually put the 3 in Int, but I've been slightly regretting that with a current character, as she rolls Perception-based pools a lot). It's not going to make a significant difference how you allocate your Tertiary attributes.

Abilities:
Favored abilities depend on what you want to be able to do. If you mostly want to be combat focused with some ability to hold your own in social combat, one possible set would be Resistance, Dodge, Athletics, Integrity, and whichever social ability you prefer between Performance and Presence. Performance is the key ability for prayer and can be used on groups of people at once, Presence can only be used on individuals but has a slightly larger and debatably better Charm tree. Either of them will give you something to do in social conflicts. Resistance/Dodge/Athletics are for combat; Integrity is for social defense and shaping defense.

You have 28 Ability points and 4 free specialties; a possible before-BP array would be something like:
[C]Archery
[C]Martial Arts
[C]Melee ●●●●● (Swords ●●●)
[C]Thrown
[C]War ●●●

[F]Integrity ●●●
Performance
[F]Presence ●●●
[F]Resistance ●●●●●
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore ●
Medicine
Occult

[F]Athletics ●●●
Awareness
[F]Dodge ●●●●● (In Hand-to-Hand Combat ●)
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize

Backgrounds:
A lot of this depends on the character. It sounds like Liege and Abyssal Command might be appropriate? For basic weapons/armor, a soulsteel grand daiklave is 3 dots and is definitely a Big Sword; you can go with superheavy plate (3 dots post-errata) if you don't mind being conspicuous and don't care about mobility/fatigue penalties, else a soulsteel breastplate is 1 dot and should suffice. (Once you dip into other books there are lots of good artifacts, but honestly a soulsteel grand daiklave works just fine as a killstick. It might be slightly more optimal to go for a smaller faster weapon, like a reaper daiklave, and a shield, to raise your parry DV - but I'm recommending the grand daiklave because it sounds like it works with your character concept, ping 4 is fun, and you can probably afford to favor Dodge and mostly use Dodge DV rather than parry DV.)

You probably do want a hearthstone, as else Essence regeneration in Creation is a pain. Gem of Adamant Skin is very powerful (and broken in conjunction with some other tricks) but very expensive. Freedom Stone is always good, especially if you're not investing in Martial Arts. In Oadenol's Codex, the Jewel of the Flying Heart is a 1-dot hearthstone that will give you +1 to hit and +1 dodge DV.

Charms:
The hard bit! Note that it's really common in forum games to grant some free Excellencies, which help a lot with prereqs. If this is not offered, remove Charms so you can get the Excellency prereqs.

Note that I'm very confused about what the 2.5 errata did to Fluttering Moth Defense, since now its listed prereq is a Solar charm. In a real game, you would ask your ST about this, it is a nice Charm. For the purposes of this exercise, I'll leave it out.

Here's a possible (combat-focused) layout:

Integrity: Undying Stagnation Defense - stops Shaping nastiness (which can be very nasty).

Dodge: Flitting Shadow Form, Uncanny Impulse Evasion, Foe-Shaming Defense, Flickering Wisp Technique

Melee: Five Shadow Feint, Unfurling Iron Lotus, Time-Scything Technique

Resistance: Spirit-Hardened Frame, Walking Cadaver Grotesquerie

This gives you a penalty-negator, surprise-negator and flurrybreaker in Dodge; hopefully your dodge DV is high enough that you don't get hit much, and you have an answer to people unloading surprise attacks and flurries on you. When you do get hit, you fire Spirit-Hardened Frame to boost your soak and Walking Cadaver Grotesquerie to reduce the post-soak damage to 1. Against shaping attacks, you use Undying Stagnation Defense. For absolute emergencies, you have a perfect defense in Flickering Wisp Technique.

For offense you have the melee charms; Unfurling Iron Lotus lets you hit a large number of mooks simultaneously and against tough single targets you break out Time-Scything Technique.

There are plenty of other routes - you can boost up your soak with armor and various charms, you can drop some of the combat defenses and take social charms or defenses, etc. You will not be able to do everything as a starting character. In the games I've played on these forums, though, this kind of layout would generally make you the resident combat monster.

Virtues:
Conviction lets you regain Willpower. Valor and Compassion sound in-flavor for the character. Temperance is probably your low virtue. On a quick look through the book, it looks like Abyssals don't get the Charms that make Virtue channeling powerful for Solars (e.g. refreshing channels with stunts and converting dice to successes): if someone with more experience confirms this, then your allocation of Virtue dots is largely a matter of flavor.

Bonus points:
You have 18 BP.

-Buy WP to 10. It's a total pain to raise in-game (costs a lot of XP) and it directly impacts your Essence pools. This costs 5 BP.
-Unless you want to start with sorcery or specific E3 abilities, don't bother buying E3 with BP, get it with XP.
-Buying up caste/favored abilities to 5, and caste/favored specialties, is a very efficient use of BP. In this particular build, you could spend 8 BP buying up War / Presence / Integrity / Athletics to 5, and 1 BP buying a Dodge specialty up to 3. (Talk to your ST about good Dodge specialties - some will let you get away with "While In Armor", others will not.)
-Spend the remaining 4 BP on whatever you like - I'd probably go mostly with Backgrounds, but you could also augment Virtues, as an example. Putting them into Backgrounds you could end up with e.g.

Manse 1 (Jewel of the Flying Heart) - 1
Soulsteel Grand Daiklave - 3
Soulsteel Breastplate - 1
Liege 3
Abyssal Command 3