When two dragons mate, what is/are the offspring produced?

[karkus]

Let's say a Bronze Dragon (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Bronze_dragon) and a Silver Dragon (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Silver_Dragon) mate and produce a hypothetical character that you are playing. What exactly happens? Where does being a Half-Dragon (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-dragon) fit in with all this? As in, will you be a Half-Dragon with a Bronze Dragon base, or a Half-Dragon with the Silver Dragon base, or will you be a homebrewed mixture of the two, taking some of each's powers and abilities?

[TroubleBrewing]

I'd say neither. Half-Dragon Dragon is legal, if you're willing to go a little crazy with it.

Or, go Dragonborn of Bahamut (Mind) for the Silver half, and throw on Half-Bronze afterwards.

For added fun and wings, put it all on a large-sized chassis. Half-Ogre is pretty good for this, as Half-Minotaur is almost unfair.

[NotScaryBats]

I am confused. The offspring would be a dragon, not a humanoid. So either a bronze dragon, a silver dragon, or a templated dragon, but why would it be a half ogre or half dragon?

[dascarletm]

I know if gold and silver mate then you get an electrum dragon.

I suppose then, Bronze and Silver would give you a lead-free Solder dragon. weakness to heat, but regenerates it quickly. Probably really smart, since its tendancy towards enhanced circuitry.:smallbiggrin:

[karkus]

I know if gold and silver mate then you get an electrum dragon.

I suppose then, Bronze and Silver would give you a lead-free Solder dragon. weakness to heat, but regenerates it quickly. Probably really smart, since its tendancy towards enhanced circuitry.:smallbiggrin:

This was mostly what I was looking for in answers ^

But I'm confused; can you not be a Half-Dragon and half-elephant, for example? As in, a nonhumanoid?

[jywu98]

This was mostly what I was looking for in answers ^

But I'm confused; can you not be a Half-Dragon and half-elephant, for example? As in, a nonhumanoid?

As long as the creature is living and corporeal, you can apply the half-dragon template to it.

[dascarletm]

This was mostly what I was looking for in answers ^

But I'm confused; can you not be a Half-Dragon and half-elephant, for example? As in, a nonhumanoid?

by RAW, you'd have to look at what types can have the template added to them. Pretty sure animals can. You could just add the template anyway to the "dominant" dragon and call it a day, or make custom ones like I do.

[Invader]

I think the point is, if you have a silver dragon and a brass dragon you won't get a half dragon you'll just have a full blooded dragon. The question is what color will it be and I think generally there are 2 schools of thought, it will be the same color as the female or the same color as the elder of the 2 dragons.

I don't know of any ruling that suggests you mix any of their powers or abilities except in the instance of electrum dragons etc.

[jywu98]

I think the point is, if you have a silver dragon and a brass dragon you won't get a half dragon you'll just have a full blooded dragon. The question is what color will it be and I think generally there are 2 schools of thought, it will be the same color as the female or the same color as the elder of the 2 dragons.

I don't know of any ruling that suggests you mix any of their powers or abilities except in the instance of electrum dragons etc.

I think it will either be a Half-Bronze Dragon Silver Dragon or a Half-Silver Dragon Bronze Dragon.

Half-Dragon templates on Dragons are legal iirc.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I don't have the booko hand, but a passage in the Dracomonicom states that you just apply the half-dragon template.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think it will either be a Half-Bronze Dragon Silver Dragon or a Half-Silver Dragon Bronze Dragon.

Half-Dragon templates on Dragons are legal iirc.

Pretty much this.


The question is what color will it be and I think generally there are 2 schools of thought, it will be the same color as the female or the same color as the elder of the 2 dragons.

Use one of these methods to determine what color the base dragon is, then apply the template for the other color.

[jywu98]

Use one of these methods to determine what color the base dragon is, then apply the template for the other color.

Use Punnett squares!

[CaladanMoonblad]

So... if dragons can mate with anyone and everything... why do we still see pure chromatic and pure metallic dragons at all? Are there racial purity groups among dragonkind?

[yougi]

IIRC, there was a setting (or maybe it was a book) where a dragon's color was not genetic, but philosophical: if a LG Gold dragon started acting evil, it would slowly lose its gold scales, which would be replaced by blue scales, and so on. It was meant to address the fact that dragons of each species are all of the same alignment.

If you apply that to mating, I'd say if two dragons got to boink, either they share a philosophical ideology (and therefore a color), or there's force involved (or alcohol), in which case I guess the "dominant" dragon's ideology would be shared with the child. Or not, I don't know, I'm not a boinkologist.

If you don't like that idea of chameleon-dragons, you could always make a rule (mother's race is kept, father's is used for the "Half-Dragon" template), but I don't think there's a rule for that. But I'd be with those who say the offspring would be draconic in form, not humanoid.

And yes, half-dragon can be added to a dragon:

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Basically, anything that can mate can have do so with a dragon.

[Psyren]

So... if dragons can mate with anyone and everything... why do we still see pure chromatic and pure metallic dragons at all? Are there racial purity groups among dragonkind?

Yes, they're called the faiths of Bahamut and Tiamat.

I would imagine that Chromatic/Metallic hybrids are exceedingly rare, probably along the lines of such a union being created by a wizard in a lab somewhere.

[Invader]

Yes you can add the half dragon template but it's stupid to do so. If a star elf and wood elf had a child it wouldn't be a half elf.

The same should hold true for dragons.

[koboldish]

I think I read something that said crossbreeding caused loss of intelligence, which is why white dragons are slightly lacking in the mental department. I think it has other disadvantages as well. This may have been in MM1, but I'm not sure. I love the idea on Punnet squares! Now, how can you tell which color is recessive...

[prufock]

I believe you would get something similar to Corinthian Bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_bronze). Bronze is already an alloy of copper and tin, adding silver would give you a higher-quality bronze (presumably). According to the animal hybrid portmanteau naming conventions, this would be a bronver dragon if the bronze dragon was the male, or a silvonze if the silver dragon was the male.

[Amidus Drexel]

I think I read something that said crossbreeding caused loss of intelligence, which is why white dragons are slightly lacking in the mental department. I think it has other disadvantages as well. This may have been in MM1, but I'm not sure. I love the idea on Punnet squares! Now, how can you tell which color is recessive...

I would imagine the smaller colours are recessive (white, brass, etc.) and the larger colours are dominant (red, silver, gold).

[fryplink]

So... if dragons can mate with anyone and everything... why do we still see pure chromatic and pure metallic dragons at all? Are there racial purity groups among dragonkind?

For the same reason there are still people with "pure" (I know there is really no such thing) Irish or African or other blood among humans. Some Humans formally believe in racial purity, others simply find find certain physical characteristics more desirable (not in a racist sense, but in a "Japanese girls are pretty" sense). Not going make a value judgement about the second case, but it does contribute to a lower number of mixed couplings.

Anyway, I'd going to "Me too" for Silver Half-Bronze or Bronze Half-Silver.

[koboldish]

What would cause you to think the smaller colours are recessive? Recessive traits are usually absences of traits, or problems and stuff. Being small has plenty of advantages. I don't know much about genetics, but why would these be recessive? I don't know why they would be dominant either... Mabye there's some sort of co-dominance thingy, so it would result in bronze/silver half dragon or silver/bronze half dragon. I have no idea.

[Amnestic]

I don't have the booko hand, but a passage in the Dracomonicom states that you just apply the half-dragon template.

I couldn't find this passage. The only thing I could find is that crossbreeds are generally abandoned by their draconic parents, even among the metallics.

Drac, Pg. 27

Crossbreeds between dragon species are not unknown,
but very rare. A hybrid dragon of this sort is usually left to
fend for itself, but on occasion both parents (if they are on
good terms with each other) might watch over it until it
reaches adulthood.

There's a segment on crossbreeds and half-dragons before that, but it refers to "non-dragon parents".

[Lord Ensifer]

What would cause you to think the smaller colours are recessive? Recessive traits are usually absences of traits, or problems and stuff. Being small has plenty of advantages. I don't know much about genetics, but why would these be recessive? I don't know why they would be dominant either... Mabye there's some sort of co-dominance thingy, so it would result in bronze/silver half dragon or silver/bronze half dragon. I have no idea.

Recessive traits aren't necessarily bad--natural selection controls gene frequencies rather than dominant/recessive. If the "immune-to-cold" gene was recessive, to make up an example, dragons in the Arctic would still have it because all the fire-immune dragons would have died out. The fact that everyone has the gene means it will be more prevalent in the next generation despite the fact that it's recessive. I think it makes sense for the more powerful dragons--gold, red, etc.--to have genes that are similarly more powerful (i.e. dominant), but there's no hard-and-fast rule for draconic genetics.

And what happens when a silver/gold and a bronze/copper mate?

[Razanir]

I think the point is, if you have a silver dragon and a brass dragon you won't get a half dragon you'll just have a full blooded dragon. The question is what color will it be and I think generally there are 2 schools of thought, it will be the same color as the female or the same color as the elder of the 2 dragons.

I'd probably pick the female because pokémon


Yes you can add the half dragon template but it's stupid to do so. If a star elf and wood elf had a child it wouldn't be a half elf.

The same should hold true for dragons.

It'd be a half-dragon dragon. As in both halves are dragons. As in it's still a full-blooded dragon. They're just suggesting that you use the template to get the best of both colors. It'd be like if you had a half-elf template and applied it to a wood elf, not like if a high elf and a wood elf mated and produced a (half-human) half-elf

[otakumick]

I go with mother as base dragon, father as half dragon... then I get to the weird questions like what to do with the offspring of a male half fiend silver dragon and a female half celestial red dragon.
Hint, I have the child marry an immortal time traveler and the two build a planar megalopolis populated by dragons/dragon-descended/kobolds and merchants to help grow the hoards... yay for a largely neutral city that can be used for back story in any setting(what with being outside the setting anyway... unless the city itself were the setting what with it being its own little, well not so little, demiplane)

[LTwerewolf]

The rule of thumb i use is that it takes the base of the higher form of dragon, so in this case the silver would be the base.

[Pancritic]

As long as the creature is living and corporeal, you can apply the half-dragon template to it.This one time, after having watched Shrek, I applied the half-dragon template to a donkey.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Recessive traits aren't necessarily bad--natural selection controls gene frequencies rather than dominant/recessive. If the "immune-to-cold" gene was recessive, to make up an example, dragons in the Arctic would still have it because all the fire-immune dragons would have died out. The fact that everyone has the gene means it will be more prevalent in the next generation despite the fact that it's recessive. I think it makes sense for the more powerful dragons--gold, red, etc.--to have genes that are similarly more powerful (i.e. dominant), but there's no hard-and-fast rule for draconic genetics.

And what happens when a silver/gold and a bronze/copper mate?

Maybe in that case the genes are co dominant or incompletely dominant? So maybe the silver/gold hybrid would only get resistances and not immunity, but get it for both types?

[Glimbur]

You could also have them give birth to Ambush Drakes, Wyverns, or any other Dragon type critter that isn't a true dragon. This would be because, in your world, dragons can breed with anything but each other. Yes, RAW you can have half-dragon dragons but this is one way to explain why there are still pure colored dragons.

[ksbsnowowl]

As long as the creature is living and corporeal, you can apply the half-dragon template to it.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a


Technically, you can apply the half-dragon template to a dragon if all you use is the Monster Manual. However, since it doesn't make sense to do so, Races of the Dragon clarifies that the template doesn't apply to a dragon. But the errata for the Monster Manual does not include this correction, so this creature is kind of "on the cusp" of illegality.

Take that for what it's worth.

I've never used this idea before, but I intend to do so at some point in the future. When making a crossbreed dragon, apply the half-dragon template of the "stronger" parent to the base creature of the "weaker" parent.

Crossbreed of a Red and a Black? Take a Black Dragon and apply the Half Dragon (Red) template to it. Allow the template's breath weapon to be used just as often as the base dragons (treat it like any other dragon that has two breath weapons).

Easy way to do it, and that way you end up with a Red/Black that is roughly as strong as the Red, not a hybrid that is stronger than the strongest parent.

[Psyren]

Yes you can add the half dragon template but it's stupid to do so. If a star elf and wood elf had a child it wouldn't be a half elf.

The same should hold true for dragons.

Half elf isn't a template though so this analogy doesn't really work.

[Cirrylius]

So... if dragons can mate with anyone and everything... why do we still see pure chromatic and pure metallic dragons at all? Are there racial purity groups among dragonkind?
Maybe they're mules.

[koboldish]

Ummm.... Well.... Is there a quarter dragon template? :smallbiggrin:

[ksbsnowowl]

Ummm.... Well.... Is there a quarter dragon template? :smallbiggrin:

Draconic Creature?

[otakumick]

Draconic is more like a one hundredth dragon template looking at fluff... though with the Draconic Racial Class, draconic could also be viewed as an immature form of the half dragon template.

[dascarletm]

It wouldn't be too hard to just make the newly bred dragon. Progress it in HD like any normal dragon. You could even alternate what abilities it gets from each parents side. In cases that don't seem to make sense, make it up.

[dascarletm]

Use Punnett squares!

Also, This! A reason to use the knowledge learned in Genetics class!:smallbiggrin:

[karkus]

Use Punnett squares!

Good gods, it's middle school all over again...

[Invader]

Half elf isn't a template though so this analogy doesn't really work.

That's just semantics, use giants if you prefer and the result is the same.

There's no reasonable way that having 2 dragons mating results in a half dragon regardless of whether its RAW or not.

Not to mention the ability score adjustment make absolutely no sense if it's already 2 dragons mating.

[Twilightwyrm]

First, you need to know what your DM says about the issue. For all you know, different kinds of dragons cannot produce offspring with each other.
Once this is defined, it becomes random, much in the same way generic traits are passed down. Say in the case that you do apply the half-dragon template to the offspring, it would probably have an even chance of being a Half-Silver Bronze Dragon or a Half-Bronze Silver Dragon. This is, unless your DM also wants to start defining what kinds of dragons are "dominant" and what kinds are "recessive" traits.

[Psyren]

That's just semantics, use giants if you prefer and the result is the same.

Half-Giant isn't a template either.



There's no reasonable way that having 2 dragons mating results in a half dragon regardless of whether its RAW or not.

You could easily justify it by saying only .00X% of crossbreeding results in viable eggs or something. So the hybrid kids are stronger but it only rarely happens etc.

[Ganorenas]

Love threads like this, always entertaining to read

I would suggest coming up with a name and chart for the child, giving it alternating abilities or unique ones. Take the average of the parent's stats at each age category, give it lightning breath and silver's second breath (Was it paralysis?), then make it look nice, pitch it to your DM (you should be able to guess if they would be alright with it before you start) and see how it goes.

I agree that it is silly to add the half dragon template to a dragon, but also names the abilities that can carry over as extras. Maybe not the stats and 4natural armor though. It is still a neat picture though.

Should they not like it, metallic dragons seem to have hereditary traits passed by the mother, while chromatic use the father's line. So, you could endup with the same breeds as the female.
(referenced from Dragonlance)

Also, since dragons lay clutches, you can have some silver, some bronze, and some (or one) special (or runt/freak) dragon.

[Invader]

Half-Giant isn't a template either.



You could easilyasily justify it by saying only .00X% of crossbreeding results in viable eggs or something. So the hybrid kids are stronger but it only rarely happens etc.

I know that's why I called it semantics, it doesn't matter that it's a template, 1+1=/= 1/2.

[karkus]

There could also be the point of how two creatures mating does not produce an offspring more powerful than either parent, but what about Half-Celestials (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-celestial) and Half-Fiends (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-fiend)? The offspring produced here are obviously more powerful, so in dragons, this might work out anyway.

However, I think that those who brought up the "alloys" are right; the dragon offspring should be sort-of-homebrewed combinations, but the exact ratios can vary (as with Punnet squares).

For example, a Silver and a Bronze are in a long-term relationship (I'm not an expert on draconic relationships, so just assume that they're "married") and have several children together. Each one will be referred to as "Corinthian Dragons," but while all of them have line-of-lightning breath weapons, only half will have an additional cone-of-cold, while the rest will have a cone-of-paralysis (I got this figure using a very basic Punnet Square just now).

They will gain their Alternate Form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alternate_Form) ability at either the Wyrmling, Very Young, or Young stages (roll a d3 to calculate), and can either walk on clouds or breathe underwater, or a lesser mixture of both ("Can hold breath and/or walk on clouds for 10 minutes at a time," etc.).

The Dragons will also have two immunities, randomly selected from Acid, Cold, and Electricity (roll another d3 to remove one of these, keep the other two), and if Immunity to Cold is not removed, add Vulnerability to Fire and Speak with Animals to balance it out.

That works... right?

[Invader]

There could also be the point of how two creatures mating does not produce an offspring more powerful than either parent, but what about Half-Celestials (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-celestial) and Half-Fiends (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-fiend)? The offspring produced here are obviously more powerful, so in dragons, this might work out anyway.

That works... right?

That's only half true, a half fiend is not nearly as powerful as a full fiend, the same holds true for celestial. In this instance it would be like saying that 2 celestial's that had offspring would produce another significantly more powerful celestial.

I do agree that you're better off homebrewing something rather that adding a half dragon template though.

[GnomeGninjas]

I know that's why I called it semantics, it doesn't matter that it's a template, 1+1=/= 1/2.

What dragon would you use to represent the cross then? Half-Dragon dragon is the only reasonable non-homebrew way to represent a dragon with abilities from both of its parents.

[Invader]

What dragon would you use to represent the cross then? Half-Dragon dragon is the only reasonable non-homebrew way to represent a dragon with abilities from both of its parents.

You don't have to, you decide which color is dominant and that's the color of the new dragon.

If you're goal is to combine them and option 1isnt a choice then I think it falls into the realm of homebrewing your own new dragon.

[Amnestic]

Half-Dragon dragon is the only reasonable non-homebrew way to represent a dragon with abilities from both of its parents.

"Only reasonable"? No. You could give it the Draconic Heritage (Father's Heritage) for free. Simple, perfectly reasonable, and I'm pretty sure it's not any more homebrew than your solution.

Why (Father's Heritage)? Because it's stated in Draconomnomnomicon that eggs are generally the same scale colour as the mother, indicating that she's got the dominant colour in the mating process.

[karkus]

...Draconomnomnomicon...

Laughed for a solid minute there.

Also, I was referring to Celestial Creatures (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Celestial_Creature_(Creature_Template)) and Fiendish Creatures (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fiendish_Creature_(Creature_Template)) mating with nonoutsiders, producing a blatantly more powerful critter; not that a Pit Fiend (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pit_Fiend) or a Solar (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar) will mate with nonoutsiders and produce Half-Fiends/Half-Celestials, respectively.

[Amidus Drexel]

Laughed for a solid minute there.

Also, I was referring to Celestial Creatures (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Celestial_Creature_(Creature_Template)) and Fiendish Creatures (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fiendish_Creature_(Creature_Template)) mating with nonoutsiders, producing a blatantly more powerful critter; not that a Pit Fiend (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pit_Fiend) or a Solar (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar) will mate with nonoutsiders and produce Half-Fiends/Half-Celestials, respectively.

The celestial and fiendish templates mean a creature has some celestial or fiendish blood; the half-celestial/fiend templates mean a creature is the offspring of good or evil outsiders (respectively).

Edit: To clarify; if a celestial lion bred with a regular lion, the offspring would probably still be a celestial lion: a lion descended from good outsiders. It would only become a half-celestial if say, an angel bred with that lion.

[Razanir]

There's no reasonable way that having 2 dragons mating results in a half dragon regardless of whether its RAW or not.

The half-dragon template just means that one of its parents is a dragon. So a half-dragon X means one parent is a dragon, and one parent is an X. If X is a dragon, both parents are then dragons, making it still a full-blooded dragon.

Would you care to argue why you think a half-dragon dragon is somehow NOT a full dragon?

[karkus]

Would you care to argue why you think a half-dragon dragon is somehow NOT a full dragon?

I have to agree with this person, because Half-Dragons ARE dragons; there's very little room for an argument on the subject.

I mean, sure they're not True Dragons, (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/True_Dragon) but they are 100% dragon (even though they are technically only 1/2 dragon, they still have the Dragon type).

[otakumick]

a celestial lion is not a lion of celestial descent, its a lion native to the outer planes. says it right on the tin.

[Shalist]

If they mated while in human alterform, 9 months later there'd be a half-silver, half-bronze human baby; if they mated while altered into cats, 2 months later there'd be a litter of half-bronze, half-silver kittens flying and mewling about; within a few years they'd grow into a dozen sizable feral colonies, devastating the local fish and fowl populations (and supplies of shiny metal things) as they spread ever outwards, like an adorable wittle plague of wocusts!, with the local humaneDruid society all but helpless before them...

Sounds like as good an adventure hook as any *shrug*.

Relevant:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3dyey0VNG1rv231do1_1280.jpg
(Even other dragons :P )
http://planescapecomic.com/comics/110.jpg (http://planescapecomic.com/110.html)

[Amidus Drexel]

a celestial lion is not a lion of celestial descent, its a lion native to the outer planes. says it right on the tin.

*consults book*

... :smallconfused:

Apparently I've been reading that wrong then. You're right; that makes no sense whatsoever. It even says:

Monster Manual, page 31
They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more
powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a
noncelestial creature.

[Invader]

The half-dragonargument that ate just means that one of it from rents is a dragon. So a half-dragon X means one parent is a dragon, and one a dragon, both parents are then dragons, making it still a full-blooded dragon.

Would you care to argue why you think a half-dragon dragon is somehow NOT a full dragon?

I never said they weren't dragons. My argument is that if you have two dragons and they mate it makes no sense to add the half dragon template.

Gaining half dragon stats is to represent the increase in abilities you'd receive from the dragon side, if you're already a full dragon why would you assume you should get more powers than what you'd normally be born with.

If two vampires (D&d template) have a child it's born a vampire but by this logic it's more vampiry and should gain the powers from the vampire template again.

[ksbsnowowl]

Gaining half dragon stats is to represent the increase in abilities you'd receive from the dragon side, if you're already a full dragon why would you assume you should get more powers than what you'd normally be born with.

Which is why my suggestion is to apply the half dragon template to the "weaker" of the two parent types. You then end up with a dragon that has the immunities of both, the breath weapon type of both (either hand-waive the 1/day, or give them Draconic Breath for free), and the stats should end up somewhere between the two parents.

That can't be assured in all cases, but at worst the offspring is only minimally stronger than the stronger parent.

[8wGremlin]

So simple 'one gene for draconic colour' genetics....

if the silver is more dominant than the bronze then you could have this

SS bb
/ \ / \
Sb Sb Sb Sb

SS = Silver, bb = Bronze, Sb = Silver

What this means is that you'd get 100% silver dragons, but carrying the recessive bronze dragon gene.


Now if a Sb bread with a bronze dragon, you'd get..

Sb bb
/ \ / \
Sb bb Sb bb

so 50% Silver dragons with the recessive gene, and 50% Bronze dragons

[karkus]

That's actually a really good way to determine offspring, but we still haven't figured out how to determine which is the dominant dragon yet. Should it go by age, or should we show a little bit of draconic racism and decide which colors/colours are inherently the dominant races?

This is probably something that WotC wasn't planning on people bringing up... :smallbiggrin:

[jywu98]

Dang, I didn't expect the Playground to take me seriously when I mentioned Punnett squares...

@Invader2k: Why would not be a good idea? The dominant color will be the base dragon, and recessive color will be applied onto the dragon via the half-dragon template. The hybrid dragon isn't more of a dragon, it just has the traits of both colors.

[8wGremlin]

Dang, I didn't expect the Playground to take me seriously when I mentioned Punnett squares...

That's what they were called... I couldn't remember....:smallbiggrin:

[Invader]

Dang, I didn't expect the Playground to take me seriously when I mentioned Punnett squares...

@Invader2k: Why would not be a good idea? The dominant color will be the base dragon, and recessive color will be applied onto the dragon via the half-dragon template. The hybrid dragon isn't more of a dragon, it just has the traits of both colors.

For one out opens up easy access to half dragon template cheese.

For another I already explained why it makes no sense to get additional bonuses based on both dragons. It's like getting double racial bonuses for two of the same race. It's equivalent to saying you get +2 con from being half aquatic dwarf and a +2 con for being half desert dwarf.

[karkus]

It's equivalent to saying you get +2 con from being half aquatic dwarf and a +2 con for being half desert dwarf.

Sure, why not. I'd play that character all the way up until the point when my DM will throw a book at me.

[Siosilvar]

For another I already explained why it makes no sense to get additional bonuses based on both dragons. It's like getting double racial bonuses for two of the same race. It's equivalent to saying you get +2 con from being half aquatic dwarf and a +2 con for being half desert dwarf.

Hybrid vigor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis) is totally a thing in the real world - corn, rice, mules, mixed-breed dogs all tend to get the best of both sides. Why is it suddenly nonsensical when it happens in a fantasy world?

[jywu98]

@Invader2k: What half-dragon template cheese?
For the Punnett square theory, I'm thinking that the dragon with the higher CR will be the dominant.

[Saito Takuji]

simple way to do it

base the size/progression off of the mother

all breath weapons useable as standard breath weapons

instead of elemental immunities, grant resistances. based off of HD if they share any immunities, then the child has those immunities.

ability scores, average them together, or base them off of the mother.

the spells/powers/whatever per day, not sure how to do that, but mabey getting them at less times per day would work.

any other stuff i am missing that isnt universal to all dragons, not that hard to homebrew it out

oh wait color, just for kicks, lets make the scals randomly colored like one of the parents..... okay now i am imagining a prismatic/force dragon hybrid, its only partially invisible, and the other part is flamboyantly fabulous!

[Kuulvheysoon]

oh wait color, just for kicks, lets make the scals randomly colored like one of the parents..... okay now i am imagining a prismatic/force dragon hybrid, its only partially invisible, and the other part is flamboyantly fabulous!

Goodsir, this way lies madness! What if we get a red/white dragon hybrid? Candy-cane dragons!

[RFLS]

For one out opens up easy access to half dragon template cheese.

For another I already explained why it makes no sense to get additional bonuses based on both dragons. It's like getting double racial bonuses for two of the same race. It's equivalent to saying you get +2 con from being half aquatic dwarf and a +2 con for being half desert dwarf.

First of all, those are different subraces, not templates. Secondly, any potential player abuse is mitigated by the +3 LA for playing a half-dragon on top of the existing LA and racial HD for playing a DRAGON.


Goodsir, this way lies madness! What if we get a red/white dragon hybrid? Candy-cane dragons!

I think you mentioned this last time it came up XD

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think you mentioned this last time it came up XD

I did, but my attempts to save that thread were in vain. Let us hope that we don't get similarly derailed here.

What if you cross a Metallic/Chromatic dragon with a Planar Dragon? Which one would be dominant between say, a Bronze and a Battle dragon?

Or a Gem and a Metallic/Chromatic? Do they retain the [psionic] subtype?

[Amnestic]

Races of the Dragon, pg. 72

Since the half-dragon template can apply to any living creature type other than dragons, a nearly limitless variety of possible half-dragons exist.

I consider this pretty relevant.

[Ganorenas]

Amnestic! How could you?!?

If that is the case, I need to scrap my half-silver dragon wyvern I was going to toss at my party tomor- today.

Hmmm. When I get home from work I will definitely look at that, I imagine it meant True Dragons, or was in error, but... Darn.

Loved that candy cane dragon from the last one, it had hypnotic scales like a barbershop pole, right? =)

[jywu98]

It is arguably legal though, as errata for MM never fixed it, and MM is the primary source for monsters. A WotC article found by ksbsnowowl stated that half-dragon dragons are "on the cusp" of illegality.

However, you're right. It is probably illegal.

[Amnestic]

It is arguably legal though, as errata for MM never fixed it, and MM is the primary source for monsters. A WotC article found by ksbsnowowl stated that half-dragon dragons are "on the cusp" of illegality.

However, you're right. It is probably illegal.

Wouldn't Races of the Dragon/Draconomicon be the primary source given that it's specifically on the subject of (half) dragons? There's an entire chapter dedicated to Dragon-descended characters in RotD...I'd have thought that would be primary over the more generalised MM.

Seems odd otherwise, but I'm no rules expert. :smallsigh:

[jywu98]

Me neither. :smalltongue:

I do think you're right about Draconomicon being the primary source for dragons though, I'm not sure about RotD.

[dascarletm]

If you want the easy-mode do dominance and punnet squares. If you want a little work and more awesome mix em, but make it a rare occurance since dragons perhaps don't do this.

Even the good ones are territorial, and only really put up with each other to mate.

[Eisenfavl]

instead of elemental immunities, grant resistances. based off of HD if they share any immunities, then the child has those immunities.

Actually we know via the feats that let dragons swallow whole that their stomachs do not have acid, but rather the same damage type as their breath weapon.
Due to this, I'd base my immunities off of the mother or you'd end up with a situation where the young might be roasted alive in their mother. That said, they are in an egg, but best to be safe.

[Amnestic]

That said, they are in an egg, but best to be safe.

Draconomicon, pg.10

Dragon eggs vary in size depending on the kind of dragon. They are generally the same color as the dragon that laid them and they have the same energy immunities as the dragon that laid them (for example, black dragon eggs are black or dark gray and impervious to acid).

Regardless of what candy-cane-coloured draconic monstrosity you come up with, the egg itself is guaranteed to be safe from the mother prior to birth.

[Invader]

First of all, those are differint subraces, not templates. Secondly, any potential abuse is mitigated by the +3 LA for playing a half-dragon on top of the existing LA and racial HD for playing a DRAGON.



I think you mentioned this last time it came up XD

But it's the same concept and that's why it doesn't make sense and shouldn't be allowed.

The cheese comes from the fact that by these rules it's prefect legal legal for me to say that my great grandfather was a silver half red dragon and he mated with a gold dragon so my grandfather was a silver, half red, half gold who mated with a blue so my father is a silver, half red, half gold, half blue who mated with a brass so by default I only have to take the half dragon template one time but I'm effectively a half silver, half gold, half red, half blue, half brass dragon.

And dragon is not a template, you're taking two regular races and basically gaining the racial bonuses twice and only paying once.

[jywu98]

Nobody said dragon is a template. Half-dragon, however, is a template, and it is arguably "legal" to add it on to a dragon (WotC article states it's on the verge of illegality). It doesn't matter what you think. I have listed facts, whereas you keep giving irrelevant examples.

[Doxkid]

I prefer to go Mother/Father, with the mother offering the main type and the father offering the "half" portion.
--
Mother1:Red dragon
Father1: Gold dragon
Mother2:White dragon
Father2: silver dragon

M1F1:Red half-gold dragon
M1f2: Red half-silver dragon
...and so on

[Invader]

That's your problem right there. I've never once said you can't do it and in fact I specifically said you can if you'd take the time to actually read my arguments.



Yes you can add the half dragon template but it's stupid to do so. If a star elf and wood elf had a child it wouldn't be a half elf.

The same should hold true for dragons.

My argument is that it's stupid because it doesn't make sense and I've given several examples as why it shouldn't work all of which have conveniently ignored.

[jywu98]

Because you examples have ranged from: racial variants mating together to different subraces mating together to vampires mating together. Many people in this thread, not just me, have commented that your "examples" are irrelevant.

[Synovia]

I think it will either be a Half-Bronze Dragon Silver Dragon or a Half-Silver Dragon Bronze Dragon.

Half-Dragon templates on Dragons are legal iirc.

Half dragon templates are meant for things that are half not-dragon. IE, when a dragon breeds with something animal or humanoid.


Two dragons mating doesn't produce a half-dragon, it produces a dragon. So, while the template is legal, it doesn't make any sense in this instance.

[Synovia]

The half-dragon template just means that one of its parents is a dragon.

It also implies that one parent isn't a dragon.

Seriously, think about it. If you applied the half dragon template every time two dragons bred, every dragon would have infinite natural armor and infinite STR, CON, INT, and CHA.

The template gives +8 Str. A wyrmling Red Dragon has 17 STR. That means dragons can be no older than 2 generations. Even if you use Adult as the baseline, dragons can be no older (as a species) than 4 generations.


It is arguably legal though, as errata for MM never fixed it, and MM is the primary source for monsters. A WotC article found by ksbsnowowl stated that half-dragon dragons are "on the cusp" of illegality.


Draconomicon is more specific, which would mean it overrules the primary source for monsters. Its like how Libris Mortis overrules MM on most undead.

[hamishspence]

A bit like half-fiend fiend?

Yet the rules, as far as I know, allow it. Could be rather interesting to use the variant half-fiend templates.

So, a half-marilith fiend, would look like a normal fiend, except for extra arms.

It may be an artifact of the mechanics- but I don't see it as particularly silly.

Especially since genes can be discrete.

In the case of silver and gold, a mixed litter- some "half-gold silver" and some "half-silver gold" would I think be a perfectly reasonable way of handling it.

A generation or two down from that- then you can homebrew some "electrum dragons"

[Synovia]

Oh, of course the rules allow it. That doesn't mean it isnt ridiculous, stupid, cheese.

The rules also allow Pun-Pun. That doesn't mean you should use it when there are several better solutions.

[jywu98]

Oh, of course the rules allow it. That doesn't mean it isnt ridiculous, stupid, cheese.

The rules also allow Pun-Pun. That doesn't mean you should use it when there are several better solutions.

So point us to the better solutions, if you will. The reason we are using half-dragon is that there is no better way to do it without homebrew, or at least the better way hasn't come up yet.

[Amnestic]

So point us to the better solutions, if you will. The reason we are using half-dragon is that there is no better way to do it without homebrew, or at least the better way hasn't come up yet.


"Only reasonable"? No. You could give it the Draconic Heritage (Father's Heritage) for free. Simple, perfectly reasonable, and I'm pretty sure it's not any more homebrew than your solution.

Why (Father's Heritage)? Because it's stated in Draconomnomnomicon that eggs are generally the same scale colour as the mother, indicating that she's got the dominant colour in the mating process.

I posted this on the last page. I think it's at least as good a solution. Do you disagree?

[jywu98]

I posted this on the last page. I think it's at least as good a solution. Do you disagree?

It surely isn't as unrealistic as the half-dragon idea :smalltongue:, but from the description of the feat, "You have greater connection with your distant draconic bloodline", seem to imply that a dragon was your ancestor and not your parent.

[afroakuma]

Chromatic Dragons

{table=head]Parents|Black|Blue|Green|Red|White
Black|Black|Ultramarine|Sabz|Crimson|Gray
Blue|Ultramarine|Blue|Teal|Violet|Azure
Green|Sabz|Teal|Green|Olive|Celadon
Red|Crimson|Violet|Olive|Red|Pink
White|Gray|Azure|Celadon|Pink|White[/table]

Metallic Dragons

{table=head]Parents|Brass|Bronze|Copper|Gold|Silver
Brass|Brass|Terne|Tombac|Orichalcum|Billon
Bronze|Terne|Bronze|Guanín|Ormolu|Candidum
Copper|Tombac|Guanín|Copper|Shakudo|Niello
Gold|Aurichalcum|Ormolu|Shakudo|Gold|Electrum
Silver|Billon|Candidum|Niello|Electrum|Silver[/table]

Gem Dragons

{table=head]Parents|Amethyst|Crystal|Emerald|Sapphire|Topaz
Amethyst|Amethyst|Quartz|Prasiolite|Tanzanite|Citr ine
Crystal|Quartz|Crystal|Beryl|Corundum|Peridot
Emerald|Prasiolite|Beryl|Emerald|Aquamarine|Heliod or
Sapphire|Tanzanite|Corundum|Aquamarine|Sapphire|La pis Lazuli
Topaz|Citrine|Peridot|Heliodor|Lapis Lazuli|Topaz[/table]

Cross-breeds are the dragon type of the mother with the half-dragon template passed down from the father.

[Gwendol]

Amnestic, I support your call. It makes a lot of sense.

[Amnestic]

It surely isn't as unrealistic as the half-dragon idea :smalltongue:, but from the description of the feat, "You have greater connection with your distant draconic bloodline", seem to imply that a dragon was your ancestor and not your parent.

Well it's as fluff-defying as the half-dragon thing.

Also "distant" is a mutable word! It's stated that crossbreeds are generally rejected by their parents. Thus "distant" could be interpreted as "estranged", no? :p

[jywu98]

Well it's as fluff-defying as the half-dragon thing.

Also "distant" is a mutable word! It's stated that crossbreeds are generally rejected by their parents. Thus "distant" could be interpreted as "estranged", no? :p

Darn you semantics! :smallyuk:
Well, naturally I'm biased towards my own idea, but I could see yours working too.

Another problem I see with the Draconic Heritage feat (this time from a mechanical viewpoint) is that it doesn't provide much for the dragon, especially since true dragons already have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.

@afroakuma: Did you make that list? Wow. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

I think you get a dragon with some of the benefits of both parents. It should not be more powerful than either pure race. And there may be a good reason why you seldom hear of such cross-breeds; perhaps the hybrids would tend towards sterility a la Muls.

So a Brass / Silver hybrid would have one or two types of breath weapons selected from the parents but no more uses per day, HD that were the average between the two, etc.

[hamishspence]

How about ligers being bigger than both lions and tigers? It could be something similar, but for dragons.

Given the existence of the Draconic template, for beings with only a little Dragon blood- can't see why dragon/dragon hybrids would be more likely to be sterile than any other dragon crossbreed.

[Amnestic]

Another problem I see with the Draconic Heritage feat (this time from a mechanical viewpoint) is that it doesn't provide much for the dragon, especially since true dragons already have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.


Is that a problem? Should crossbreeds give direct mechanical benefits that are significant?

[jywu98]

They should at least get a bit more out of it than what Draconic Heritage gives. I mean the hybrid's gonna be 50%-50%, not something like 99%-1%.

[danzibr]

If you don't like that idea of chameleon-dragons, you could always make a rule (mother's race is kept, father's is used for the "Half-Dragon" template), but I don't think there's a rule for that. But I'd be with those who say the offspring would be draconic in form, not humanoid.
This is what I'd suggest. In fact, I'd exactly say mother for dominant, father for half-.

[Invader]

Because you examples have ranged from: racial variants mating together to different subraces mate together to vampires mating together. Many people in this thread, not just me, have commented that your examples" are irrelevant.

It's fine that you think they're irrelevant, I happen to disagree with you.

I gave 3 different examples of something almost identical and none of them work the way applying a half dragon template would because in all of those examples it makes sense the way the do and in all examples it works the same way. Explain why dragons mating should be the one exception to the rule.

[Larkas]

Hybrid vigor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis) is totally a thing in the real world - corn, rice, mules, mixed-breed dogs all tend to get the best of both sides. Why is it suddenly nonsensical when it happens in a fantasy world?

So much this. Maybe they should be sterile (not so sure, what with all Io's planning), but they should, IMO, be stronger than both parents. Maybe a template made specifically for crossbreeding true dragons could be homebrewed for that, but lacking it, I think that the best way to represent that would be the aforementioned half-dragon template.

[Shining Wrath]

Half-Giant isn't a template either.



You could easily justify it by saying only .00X% of crossbreeding results in viable eggs or something. So the hybrid kids are stronger but it only rarely happens etc.

RAW, you cannot produce a half dragon from mating two dragons (cited in comments).

Half-fey is a template. Would you apply it to the offspring of a Satyr and a Nymph? Or, for that matter, two Nymphs with a belt of opposite gender?

Let us not be silly. You don't apply the half-dragon template to the mixture of two different types of dragons any more than two different breeds of orcs produce half-orcs.

[Siosilvar]

It's fine that you think they're irrelevant, I happen to disagree with you.

I gave 3 different examples of something almost identical and none of them work the way applying a half dragon template would because in all of those examples it makes sense the way the do and in all examples it works the same way. Explain why dragons mating should be the one exception to the rule.

For starters, because there's a half-dragon template. Why shouldn't dragons be an exception? They can make half-dragons with anything living and corporeal, why not other dragons? (because RAW says so, at least in one place, which is contradicted in another)

As a second point, because heterosis only applies to some things in real life anyway. You haven't addressed this point yet, and I'm not an expert, but it seems reasonable to me that it only applies to some things in the fantasy world as well.

[Larkas]

On the previously cited article, one can also find this, AFTER the citation of RotD:


Producer's Note: The concept of a half-dragon-dragon is submitted quite a bit via Ask Wizards. So in a recent Valentine's Week Sage Advice, we addressed this very question of legality. The Sage said yeah: half-dragon-dragons are in, albeit rare.

Take from that what you will. It is CustServ, after all.

EDIT: Specifically, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070216a).

[Psyren]

RAW, you cannot produce a half dragon from mating two dragons (cited in comments).

Where is this cited? Draconomicon refers to crossbreeds between dragon species as "hybrids" - how else would you represent that?



Half-fey is a template. Would you apply it to the offspring of a Satyr and a Nymph? Or, for that matter, two Nymphs with a belt of opposite gender?

That depends. How do Satyrs and Nymphs reproduce?



Let us not be silly. You don't apply the half-dragon template to the mixture of two different types of dragons any more than two different breeds of orcs produce half-orcs.

Half-orc isn't a template.

[Invader]

For starters, because there's a half-dragon template. Why shouldn't dragons be an exception? They can make half-dragons with anything living and corporeal, why not other dragons? (because RAW says so, at least in one place, which is contradicted in another)

As a second point, because heterosis only applies to some things in real life anyway. You haven't addressed this point yet, and I'm not an expert, but it seems reasonable to me that it only applies to some things in the fantasy world as well.

I am in no way well versed in heterosis so please bear with me while I try to understand. Is it fair to say that it's the process of breeding 2 sub species to produce genetically superior offspring?

[ShadowFireLance]

Freaking three pages before I show up >.<

You get a...

Solder Dragon:
Dragon (Good, Law)
Environment: Temperate Aquatic
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary, or formation (2–5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or squad (2-5).
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 4; very young 5; young 7; juvenile 9;
young adult 11; adult 14; mature adult 17; old 19; very old 20; ancient 22;
wyrm 23; great wyrm 26
Treasure: Standard.
Alignment: Always Lawful Good.

Insert fluff

{table]Age| Size| Hit Dice | Str| Dex| Con| Int| Wis| Cha| BAB/Grp| Atk| Fort| Ref| Will| Breath Weapon Damage| Breath Weapon DC| Frightful Presence
Wyrmling| M| 7d12+14 (59 hp) | 21| 10| 15| 10| 15| 14| 7/12| 12| 7| 5| 7| 2d10 |15 |-
Very Young| L| 10d12+20 (85 hp) | 25| 10| 15| 12| 15| 16| 10/21| 16| 9| 7| 9| 4d10 |17 |-
Young | L| 13d12+39 (117 hp) | 27| 10| 17| 12| 17| 16| 13/25| 20| 11| 8| 11| 6d10 |19 |-
Juvenile| H| 16d12+48 (143 hp) | 29| 10| 17| 14| 19| 18| 16/33| 23| 13| 10| 14| 8d10 |21 |-
Young Adult| H| 19d12+76 (199 hp) | 31| 10| 19| 16| 19| 20| 19/37| 27| 15| 11| 15| 10d10 |23 |24
Adult| H| 22d12+110 (253 hp) | 33| 10| 21| 16| 21| 20| 22/41| 31| 18| 13| 18| 12d10 |26 |26
Mature Adult| H| 25d12+150 (312 hp) | 35| 10| 23| 18| 21| 22| 25/45| 35| 20| 14| 19| 14d10 |28 |28
Old | G| 28d12+168 (350 hp) | 39| 10| 23| 18| 23| 22| 28/54| 38| 22| 16| 22| 16d10 |30 |30
Very Old| G| 31d12+217 (418 hp) | 41| 10| 25| 20| 25| 24| 31/58| 42| 24| 17| 24| 18d10 |32 |32
Ancient| G| 34d12+272 (493 hp) | 43| 10| 27| 22| 27| 26| 34/62| 46| 27| 19| 27| 20d10 |35 |35
Wyrm | C| 37d12+343 (573 hp) | 47| 10| 29| 24| 29| 28| 37/71| 47| 29| 20| 29| 22d10 |37 |37
Great Wyrm | C| 40d12+400 (650 hp) | 49| 10| 31| 26| 31| 30| 40/75| 51| 32| 22| 32| 24d10 |40 |40[/table]

{table]Age |Speed |Init |AC |SR |Special Abilities |Caster Level
Wyrmling |40-ft, fly 100-ft (average) |+0 |16 (+6 natural) |- |Immunity to fire, electricity petrification, and cold, +4 on saves versus Poison, Warbred, |-
Very Young |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |18 (-1 size, +9 natural) |- |Alternate Form, Sword of Celestia |-
Young |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |21 (-1 size, +12 natural) |- |Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues |-
Juvenile |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |23 (-2 size, +15 natural) |- |Domains |1st
Young Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |26 (-2 size, +18 natural) |21 |DR 5/evil |3rd
Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |29 (-2 size, +21 natural) |23 |Light of Solder |5th
Mature Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |32 (-2 size, +24 natural) |26 |DR 10/evil |7th
Old |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |33 (-4 size, +27 natural) |28 |Aura of Menace |9th
Very Old |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |36 (-4 size, +30 natural) |31 |DR 15/evil |11th
Ancient |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |39 (-4 size, +33 natural) |34 |Greater Teleport |13th
Wyrm |40-ft, fly 250-ft (clumsy) |+0 |38 (-8 size, +36 natural) |37 |DR 20/evil |15th
Great Wyrm |40-ft, fly 250-ft (clumsy) |+0 |41 (-8 size, +39 natural) |40 |Aura of Terror, Burning Sun |17th[/table]

Special Abilities:

Breath Weapon (Su): A Solder dragon has a single breath weapon a cone of holy Energy. This breath weapon deals fire damage but ignores any fire resistance or immunity that evil creatures struck by it might possess. In addition undead struck by this breath weapon are turned as if by a cleric whose level is half the Solder dragon’s hit dice.

Warbred (Ex): A Solder dragon gains proficiency in light and medium armor, as well as shields. They may also select any one exotic shield, weapon, or light or medium armor and gain proficiency in it as well. Solder dragons are considered war-trained mounts for the purposes of the Ride skill.

Alternate Form (Su): A very young or older Solder dragon can assume any humanoid form of Medium size or smaller or the form of a riding dog or a large warhound (use stats for a dire wolf) as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its canine or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

Sword of Celestia (Su): A very young or older Solder dragon adds one-half (rounded down) of its age category as bonus weapon damage to: creatures with the evil subtype, evil paladins, evil clerics, evil incarnates, undead, and evil aligned outsiders. They add only one-fourth their age category against evil aligned creatures which do not fall into any of these categories.

Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A young or older Solder dragon is constantly surrounded by an aura of protection against evil which functions like a Magic Circle against Evil (caster level 14th).

Tongues (Su): A young or older Solder dragon can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

Domains: A juvenile Solder dragon must select two domains from the following list: Good, Law, Strength, Protection, War, Dragon, Metallic Dragon (from a dragon magazine), Air, Fire, Nobility, Courage, Wrath (BoED version), Endurance, Glory, and Hero (shaman domain from OA). They gain the ability to cast spells from these domains (see spells below), and gain the granted power from these domains (their effective cleric level equals their racial caster level). They may also instead choose the Celestia domain in place of both domains they would normally have access to.

Light of Solder (Su): When an adult or older Solder dragon uses its breath weapon it flashes with brilliant light; for a split second it radiates bright light within a radius equal to their length of their breath weapon, and shadowy illumination for an equal distance beyond that. Any neutral creature within this area must make a Fort save (same DC as Frightful Presence) or be dazzled for 1d4 rounds. Evil creatures within this area are blinded for 1 round and then dazzled for 1d4 rounds if they fail the save. Undead and creatures with the Evil subtype are dazzled for 1d4 rounds even if they succeed their saving throw. This ability interacts with magical darkness as if it were a light spell with a spell level equal to the Solder dragon’s age category.

Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds old or older Solder dragons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of a Solder dragon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC equals that of the dragon’s frightful presence. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the dragon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same dragon’s aura for 24 hours.

Aura of Terror (Su): A great wyrm’s Solder dragon’s aura of menace is even more terrible. Hostile creatures within a 20-ft radius of a Solder dragon which make their saves still suffer the normal effects of an Aura of Menace (see above), and those that fail their saves cower for 1 round and take double the normal penalty from Aura of Menace. Striking the Solder dragon is no longer enough for those who fail their save against this effect, they must successfully deal at least 25 damage to the Solder dragon to end it.

Form of the Burning Sun (Su): A great wyrm Solder dragon may, 1/day as a free action immolate itself. While it burns with holy fires it gains a +4 sacred bonus to all ability scores, a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modifier, and deals bonus damage to any evil creature it strikes equal to its Charisma modifier. Its SR is also increased by its Charisma modifier. While ablaze the Solder dragon produces bright light within a 120-ft radius, and shadowy illumination another 120-ft beyond that; this light is as strong as a 12th level light descriptor spell's and suppresses magical darkness that is weaker than this. Finally any creature striking it with a non-reach weapon in melee takes 1d6+15 fire damage and cold effects deal half damage to the dragon while this ability is active, half of this damage is divine in nature and unaffected by fire resistance or immunity. This ability is extremely draining and each round it is active the Solder dragon takes 2 points of Constitution burn and the dragon must make a Fortitude save to continue this ability after each round, the DC is 45 + 2 per previous save.
While this ability is active the dragon is wreathed in holy flames which cause it to appear almost like a four-legged phoenix. Only their feathers are not completely concealed by this bright flame.

Spells: A Solder dragon may cast spells from the two domains it selected above. Its spells per day are those of a cleric of the listed level (normal and domain spells put together) but all slots must be filled with spells from the dragon’s two domains.

Spell-like Abilities: At-will Greater Teleport (ancient or older, self and lawful good rider with up to 50 lbs of gear each only).

Skills: Heal, Ride, and Tumble are class skills for a Solder dragon.

Stolen, slightly, but i think it works.

[Tvtyrant]

How about ligers being bigger than both lions and tigers? It could be something similar, but for dragons.

Given the existence of the Draconic template, for beings with only a little Dragon blood- can't see why dragon/dragon hybrids would be more likely to be sterile than any other dragon crossbreed.

Ah, but Tigons are actually smaller and weaker than their parents. It is heavily dependent on which parent is what.

[Annos]

The base creature would be the mother's species and the Half-Dragon template would be of the father. Simple yet effective way of settling this.

[jywu98]

RAW, you cannot produce a half dragon from mating two dragons (cited in comments).

Half-fey is a template. Would you apply it to the offspring of a Satyr and a Nymph? Or, for that matter, two Nymphs with a belt of opposite gender?

Let us not be silly. You don't apply the half-dragon template to the mixture of two different types of dragons any more than two different breeds of orcs produce half-orcs.

Half-orc is not a template, and are you sure Satyrs can mate Nymphs by RAW?

Oh, and I have stated this many times: Half-dragon dragons are on the verge of illegality. It can go both ways.

[otakumick]

Yes, it would be exceedingly silly to say Half Silver Dragon Gold Dragon.
However, Half Silver Gold Dragon says about the same thing only smoother.
And with enough breeding of Half Silver Gold Dragons and Half Gold Silver Dragons together, create the new breed Electrum! I do not actually advocate Electrum dragons as I don't want to stat them up myself... At the same time, I love dragons so if I found one already statted up and done well I would likely be happy to see it.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd just have it be that, when two different colors of dragons mate, that half of the eggs are one type, and half are the other.

Of course, I think it was BoEF that talked about magical fertility. Basically, that dragons and outsiders tend to be super-fertile and can reproduce with just about anything (after all, it's MAGIC!!). So, by this theory, dragons would be able to exert magical influence on the nature of their offspring (as well as whether a certain coupling would result in fertilization), controlling inheritance of draconic nature (half-dragon, draconic, normal critter, etc). By this measure, the female dragon would probably always try to ensure that the eggs hatched into dragons of her color, and unless the male is coercing her in some fashion, then he probably doesn't have much say in the matter.

I hope I'm not repeating a previous post...I lost track of what people said somewhere on page 2.:smalleek:

[GnomeGninjas]

Freaking three pages before I show up >.<

You get a...

Solder Dragon:
Dragon (Good, Law)
Environment: Temperate Aquatic
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary, or formation (2–5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or squad (2-5).
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 4; very young 5; young 7; juvenile 9;
young adult 11; adult 14; mature adult 17; old 19; very old 20; ancient 22;
wyrm 23; great wyrm 26
Treasure: Standard.
Alignment: Always Lawful Good.

Insert fluff

{table]Age| Size| Hit Dice | Str| Dex| Con| Int| Wis| Cha| BAB/Grp| Atk| Fort| Ref| Will| Breath Weapon Damage| Breath Weapon DC| Frightful Presence
Wyrmling| M| 7d12+14 (59 hp) | 21| 10| 15| 10| 15| 14| 7/12| 12| 7| 5| 7| 2d10 |15 |-
Very Young| L| 10d12+20 (85 hp) | 25| 10| 15| 12| 15| 16| 10/21| 16| 9| 7| 9| 4d10 |17 |-
Young | L| 13d12+39 (117 hp) | 27| 10| 17| 12| 17| 16| 13/25| 20| 11| 8| 11| 6d10 |19 |-
Juvenile| H| 16d12+48 (143 hp) | 29| 10| 17| 14| 19| 18| 16/33| 23| 13| 10| 14| 8d10 |21 |-
Young Adult| H| 19d12+76 (199 hp) | 31| 10| 19| 16| 19| 20| 19/37| 27| 15| 11| 15| 10d10 |23 |24
Adult| H| 22d12+110 (253 hp) | 33| 10| 21| 16| 21| 20| 22/41| 31| 18| 13| 18| 12d10 |26 |26
Mature Adult| H| 25d12+150 (312 hp) | 35| 10| 23| 18| 21| 22| 25/45| 35| 20| 14| 19| 14d10 |28 |28
Old | G| 28d12+168 (350 hp) | 39| 10| 23| 18| 23| 22| 28/54| 38| 22| 16| 22| 16d10 |30 |30
Very Old| G| 31d12+217 (418 hp) | 41| 10| 25| 20| 25| 24| 31/58| 42| 24| 17| 24| 18d10 |32 |32
Ancient| G| 34d12+272 (493 hp) | 43| 10| 27| 22| 27| 26| 34/62| 46| 27| 19| 27| 20d10 |35 |35
Wyrm | C| 37d12+343 (573 hp) | 47| 10| 29| 24| 29| 28| 37/71| 47| 29| 20| 29| 22d10 |37 |37
Great Wyrm | C| 40d12+400 (650 hp) | 49| 10| 31| 26| 31| 30| 40/75| 51| 32| 22| 32| 24d10 |40 |40[/table]

{table]Age |Speed |Init |AC |SR |Special Abilities |Caster Level
Wyrmling |40-ft, fly 100-ft (average) |+0 |16 (+6 natural) |- |Immunity to fire, electricity petrification, and cold, +4 on saves versus Poison, Warbred, |-
Very Young |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |18 (-1 size, +9 natural) |- |Alternate Form, Sword of Celestia |-
Young |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |21 (-1 size, +12 natural) |- |Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues |-
Juvenile |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |23 (-2 size, +15 natural) |- |Domains |1st
Young Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |26 (-2 size, +18 natural) |21 |DR 5/evil |3rd
Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |29 (-2 size, +21 natural) |23 |Light of Solder |5th
Mature Adult |40-ft, fly 150-ft (poor) |+0 |32 (-2 size, +24 natural) |26 |DR 10/evil |7th
Old |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |33 (-4 size, +27 natural) |28 |Aura of Menace |9th
Very Old |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |36 (-4 size, +30 natural) |31 |DR 15/evil |11th
Ancient |40-ft, fly 200-ft (clumsy) |+0 |39 (-4 size, +33 natural) |34 |Greater Teleport |13th
Wyrm |40-ft, fly 250-ft (clumsy) |+0 |38 (-8 size, +36 natural) |37 |DR 20/evil |15th
Great Wyrm |40-ft, fly 250-ft (clumsy) |+0 |41 (-8 size, +39 natural) |40 |Aura of Terror, Burning Sun |17th[/table]

Special Abilities:

Breath Weapon (Su): A Solder dragon has a single breath weapon a cone of holy Energy. This breath weapon deals fire damage but ignores any fire resistance or immunity that evil creatures struck by it might possess. In addition undead struck by this breath weapon are turned as if by a cleric whose level is half the Solder dragon’s hit dice.

Warbred (Ex): A Solder dragon gains proficiency in light and medium armor, as well as shields. They may also select any one exotic shield, weapon, or light or medium armor and gain proficiency in it as well. Solder dragons are considered war-trained mounts for the purposes of the Ride skill.

Alternate Form (Su): A very young or older Solder dragon can assume any humanoid form of Medium size or smaller or the form of a riding dog or a large warhound (use stats for a dire wolf) as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its canine or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

Sword of Celestia (Su): A very young or older Solder dragon adds one-half (rounded down) of its age category as bonus weapon damage to: creatures with the evil subtype, evil paladins, evil clerics, evil incarnates, undead, and evil aligned outsiders. They add only one-fourth their age category against evil aligned creatures which do not fall into any of these categories.

Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A young or older Solder dragon is constantly surrounded by an aura of protection against evil which functions like a Magic Circle against Evil (caster level 14th).

Tongues (Su): A young or older Solder dragon can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

Domains: A juvenile Solder dragon must select two domains from the following list: Good, Law, Strength, Protection, War, Dragon, Metallic Dragon (from a dragon magazine), Air, Fire, Nobility, Courage, Wrath (BoED version), Endurance, Glory, and Hero (shaman domain from OA). They gain the ability to cast spells from these domains (see spells below), and gain the granted power from these domains (their effective cleric level equals their racial caster level). They may also instead choose the Celestia domain in place of both domains they would normally have access to.

Light of Solder (Su): When an adult or older Solder dragon uses its breath weapon it flashes with brilliant light; for a split second it radiates bright light within a radius equal to their length of their breath weapon, and shadowy illumination for an equal distance beyond that. Any neutral creature within this area must make a Fort save (same DC as Frightful Presence) or be dazzled for 1d4 rounds. Evil creatures within this area are blinded for 1 round and then dazzled for 1d4 rounds if they fail the save. Undead and creatures with the Evil subtype are dazzled for 1d4 rounds even if they succeed their saving throw. This ability interacts with magical darkness as if it were a light spell with a spell level equal to the Solder dragon’s age category.

Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds old or older Solder dragons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of a Solder dragon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC equals that of the dragon’s frightful presence. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the dragon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same dragon’s aura for 24 hours.

Aura of Terror (Su): A great wyrm’s Solder dragon’s aura of menace is even more terrible. Hostile creatures within a 20-ft radius of a Solder dragon which make their saves still suffer the normal effects of an Aura of Menace (see above), and those that fail their saves cower for 1 round and take double the normal penalty from Aura of Menace. Striking the Solder dragon is no longer enough for those who fail their save against this effect, they must successfully deal at least 25 damage to the Solder dragon to end it.

Form of the Burning Sun (Su): A great wyrm Solder dragon may, 1/day as a free action immolate itself. While it burns with holy fires it gains a +4 sacred bonus to all ability scores, a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modifier, and deals bonus damage to any evil creature it strikes equal to its Charisma modifier. Its SR is also increased by its Charisma modifier. While ablaze the Solder dragon produces bright light within a 120-ft radius, and shadowy illumination another 120-ft beyond that; this light is as strong as a 12th level light descriptor spell's and suppresses magical darkness that is weaker than this. Finally any creature striking it with a non-reach weapon in melee takes 1d6+15 fire damage and cold effects deal half damage to the dragon while this ability is active, half of this damage is divine in nature and unaffected by fire resistance or immunity. This ability is extremely draining and each round it is active the Solder dragon takes 2 points of Constitution burn and the dragon must make a Fortitude save to continue this ability after each round, the DC is 45 + 2 per previous save.
While this ability is active the dragon is wreathed in holy flames which cause it to appear almost like a four-legged phoenix. Only their feathers are not completely concealed by this bright flame.

Spells: A Solder dragon may cast spells from the two domains it selected above. Its spells per day are those of a cleric of the listed level (normal and domain spells put together) but all slots must be filled with spells from the dragon’s two domains.

Spell-like Abilities: At-will Greater Teleport (ancient or older, self and lawful good rider with up to 50 lbs of gear each only).

Skills: Heal, Ride, and Tumble are class skills for a Solder dragon.

Stolen, slightly, but i think it works.


Why would you get that?

[lunar2]

half gold silver dragon monk 1. the damn party killer.

3 energy immunities, through the roof AC and saves, you can't hit it, it can't miss you.

[afroakuma]

@afroakuma: Did you make that list? Wow. :smallbiggrin:

Pfft. I made those dragons. I just suggested the half-hearted way of doing it using the template cause I'm too lazy to dig through my files.

[Mirakk]

As long as the creature is living and corporeal, you can apply the half-dragon template to it.

I used a Half Black Dragon Camel in a story once. It was a memorable encounter to be sure.