Questions about sniping, cover and concealment during ambush.

[Rukia]

So I'm planning to ambush my players tomorrow night as they journey towards their destination. Basically they weren't careful and all but announced their intention to travel there and the inhabitants have gotten word. The plan is to use some rather large rocks as natural cover on either side of the road and wait until they're in the perfect position to be flanked on either side. The ambush is only meant to soften them up and teach them about the benefits of having cover against those without but I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

1. I'll roll their hide checks beforehand and players will have to spot them to defeat the ambush. However if only 1 player spots them at the last second will the enemies still get a surprise round on anyone who didn't and the one who did will be allowed to act? Normally I allow one person to be enough to prevent surprise, but in this case it wouldn't be enough.

2. Would it be possible for the ambushers to ready an attack action to "fire the instant any of them reach "x" position"?

3. Assume the rocks are between waist and chest high and that they get a surprise round. Is a standard action enough for them to fire and then attempt a hide check afterwards, or would that require a move action?

4. Even if they don't hide, they have partial cover so I'm thinking at a minimum they get 20% concealment. What about an AC bonus due to the rock blocking half their body even if they just stand there?


Basically the players are low level and don't really use many ranged attacks so they'll have to close the distance. It will take them at least 2 rounds to get to any of the ambushers due to the terrain so what I mostly want is for them to eat a few arrows while doing so and want to ensure I'm not going about it the wrong way.

[TuggyNE]

1. I'll roll their hide checks beforehand and players will have to spot them to defeat the ambush. However if only 1 player spots them at the last second will the enemies still get a surprise round on anyone who didn't and the one who did will be allowed to act? Normally I allow one person to be enough to prevent surprise, but in this case it wouldn't be enough.

Correct.


2. Would it be possible for the ambushers to ready an attack action to "fire the instant any of them reach "x" position"?

No; readying can't be done outside initiative (and would likely cause balance problems if you could, so it's just as well).


3. Assume the rocks are between waist and chest high and that they get a surprise round. Is a standard action enough for them to fire and then attempt a hide check afterwards, or would that require a move action?

Move action, although they could conceivably try to use the hiding while attacking option, at the same penalty. (Whether this is actually practical given the cover involved, and whether this is even legal at range, are two other questions that may get different answers from other people.)


4. Even if they don't hide, they have partial cover so I'm thinking at a minimum they get 20% concealment. What about an AC bonus due to the rock blocking half their body even if they just stand there?

Standard cover, such as low walls, is +4 AC (and nothing else; no miss chance).

[Rukia]

Thanks, this clears a few things up. The AC bonus for cover honestly makes it easier to deal with then worrying about concealment and such.

[Gwendol]

A bunch of questions and some suggestions:

What is the goal of the ambushers, kill and loot, or something else?
What are they armed with and how do they plan to acheive their goals?

They can (and should) have both cover and concealment. Rocks provide cover while leafy bushes grant concealment.

Do the ambush using bows? If so they could attack the players over much longer range (100' for example) and using terrain so that charging is impossible (upward slope, uneven terrain, etc).

Do the ambushers know anything about the players? Presence of spellcasters, strengths and weaknesses etc? Will they take advantage?

[Rukia]

A bunch of questions and some suggestions:

What is the goal of the ambushers, kill and loot, or something else?
What are they armed with and how do they plan to acheive their goals?

They can (and should) have both cover and concealment. Rocks provide cover while leafy bushes grant concealment.

Do the ambush using bows? If so they could attack the players over much longer range (100' for example) and using terrain so that charging is impossible (upward slope, uneven terrain, etc).

Do the ambushers know anything about the players? Presence of spellcasters, strengths and weaknesses etc? Will they take advantage?

Basically I'm running Village of Hommlet and they're going to be heading to the Moathouse. However they took a quest from the Innkeeper to take out some bandits that had been hijacking his shipments and one of the party members was bold enough to cut off their ears as proof and show them at the Inn. With the spies around Hommlet, and PC's not being discrete about intentions, word got out that they were killing bandits and were going to be investigating the Moathouse.

So basically I'm just setting up a simple ambush on the path to the Moathouse which is the only one they can take due to getting the directions from a Bandit whom they questioned. They are equipped with Longbows and will be hiding behind the rocks until the PC's are in position and will then pounce(not literally of course). Their goal is to simply kill the PC's though I guess my goal as DM is to introduce them to ambushes, cover and difficult terrain. I'm using the wilderness tiles set and it is setup so that they will not have a simple direct path to any of the Archers, meaning it will take at least a full round just to reach any one of them. They are spread out so a spellcaster is only going to be able to affect one of them with any given spell.

I know that I could have them firing off arrows from a distance, but I'd rather have them lured in to closer range so that their sneak attack can kick in and give the PC's a good scare during the surprise round(assuming they don't spot). The ambusher's know somewhat about the players given that they didn't hide evidence of their bandit killing(corpses all died of melee damage) and whatever the spies were able to discern from town.

[Diarmuid]

Not sure how smart these bandits are, or how cutthroat you want t be, but if they have a lot of time to set up their ambush there's really no reason they wouldn't take the time and simple "take 20" on their hide checks.

[Rukia]

Not sure how smart these bandits are, or how cutthroat you want t be, but if they have a lot of time to set up their ambush there's really no reason they wouldn't take the time and simple "take 20" on their hide checks.

I just read a very long thread about whether or not you can take 20 with hide, though in the end it won't matter. I'll just be giving them a very large bonus due to the fact that they have plenty of time to prepare and know the PC's are coming. I also gave them camouflage kits and such so they are already at +15 normally without the bonus for being prepared. I suspect the only PC that stands a chance at seeing them will be the Ranger.

It isn't my goal to kill them, just soften them up a bit so they're already down resources by the time they hit the giant frogs and the rest of the bandits waiting in the Moathouse(who are also aware to their plans). If they slack off and don't fully recover after the ambush it might very well kill them.

[Diarmuid]

I'm curious what the rationale might be for not being able to take 20 on a hide check.

[Gwendol]

It's because it's an opposed check. Hiding can't be done in a vacuum. However, if they have time and the skills, the DM can give them a bonus to the check.

[Gwendol]

If the goal is to kill using bows they should pick an ambush site from which they can use the impressive range of the weapon. They should have both cover and concealment (rocks and foliage), and a terrain that makes it hard for the PCs to reach them while having difficulties finding shelter from the arrows. Ideally, you will take one or more into negative hp.

[Rukia]

If the goal is to kill using bows they should pick an ambush site from which they can use the impressive range of the weapon. They should have both cover and concealment (rocks and foliage), and a terrain that makes it hard for the PCs to reach them while having difficulties finding shelter from the arrows. Ideally, you will take one or more into negative hp.

That's pretty much exactly how I have it setup. The PC's can't reach them without going around quite a bit of obstacles or finding a way over the terrain which at their level is pretty much impossible. Once they reach them it's game over, but with luck they might knock a few into negatives.

[Diarmuid]

It's because it's an opposed check. Hiding can't be done in a vacuum. However, if they have time and the skills, the DM can give them a bonus to the check.

I'm sorry, are you saying that without someone to make an opposed spot check that you can't make a hide check?

That's pretty ridiculous, especially considering that the hide check requires at minimum a move action and the resulting Spot check is a free action that can be made even when it's not your turn.

I'm sorry, without some very strong RAW to support that stance I just don't buy it.

[Gwendol]

It's right there in the description of the skill: if no-one can see you there is no need for a hide check.

[TuggyNE]

I'm sorry, are you saying that without someone to make an opposed spot check that you can't make a hide check?

That's pretty ridiculous, especially considering that the hide check requires at minimum a move action and the resulting Spot check is a free action that can be made even when it's not your turn.

I'm sorry, without some very strong RAW to support that stance I just don't buy it.

Spot and Hide are both pretty thoroughly messed up in all kinds of subtle ways, so this particular weirdness isn't terribly surprising.

[Rukia]

Just wanted to pop in and say that the game went down last night and went very well. The ranger bombed his spot roll and so the ambush went off as planned. No one went into negatives but the Warforged Crusader took a nasty round and got down to 5 hit points. If it weren't for his adamantine body giving DR he'd have no doubt been down. 3 of the 6 ambushers also rolled the highest initiative so they got their surprise round followed immediately by another round. If they had not missed the Crusader on the 2nd volley of attacks, he'd have probably been dead due to the sneak attack damage.

The Beguiler cast obscuring mist which really saved the day and allowed them to slowly but surely make it to their targets and take them out, though at level 2 with the concealment miss chance it was a fairly long fight. One of the bandits rolled 3 20's in a row against the beguiler though with 1d4 short swords(goblins) it didn't really pan out to crippling damage. Our previous DM, who is now playing while I DM had a house rule that 3 20's was an instant death, though I dislike the rule and simply increase the crit modifier for every 20 on the confirmation that sparks another roll.

Best part is however that one of the Giant frog's successfully swallowed the Gnome beguiler who almost trivialized the encounter. He cast hypnotize on the 2 largest frogs, but one of them saved. The one that saved swallowed him on the next round therefore ending his concentration and which allowed the 2nd to act. He only stayed in the stomach for one round as the Crusader killed the frog soon after, but it was satisfying enough for the player to squirm.

Needless to say in those 2 fights alone the party burned through almost all of their resources and have decided to retreat from the moathouse to recover for the night.

[Cerlis]

I'm sorry, are you saying that without someone to make an opposed spot check that you can't make a hide check?

That's pretty ridiculous, especially considering that the hide check requires at minimum a move action and the resulting Spot check is a free action that can be made even when it's not your turn.

I'm sorry, without some very strong RAW to support that stance I just don't buy it.

you can still try to hide when people are around, and you can still fail at doing anything to conceal your presence when there are people around you are trying to hide from.

The second of those two would be such as you are trying to hide from someone by using a bush as cover, but they are on the opposite side you think. Even though you are trying to hide, you dont get a hide check because you are smack dab right in front of them and they automatically see you.

You cant take 20 on a hide check (or rather you wouldnt want to, but still can) because taking 20 assumes that you can reach a 20 by trying 20 times. Its explicitly stated in the rules that taking 20 on a check in which its possible to fail (as in, not not-succeeding, but fail,such as hiding or climbing) then you are treated as having rolled a 1 initially.

I.E. if there is a good chance you would fall off a cliff while climbing it you wouldnt take 20 because that assumes you get a 1-20 on your roll and anything between 1-10 means you fall. This is equivalent to (thought not entirely represented by) the notion of making minimal effort and then working your way up. Imagine a person on ground level tries to pull himself up with his fingernails, then his fings, then just his wrists, then his arms, then he tries adding his legs in. if done 20 feet in the air any of those first actions would have resulted in him falling.

SO basically taking 20 on their hide checks would be if they made sure they where in plain view, and then slowly hunkered down behind the cliff and behind the wall till it was obvious they where completely hidden. Otherwise they have to actively make that check, causing the potential of letting their hair stick out, or an arm. or some clothing.

Of course before the people arrive there they could take 20 on their hide check. They probably wouldnt be ok with hiding completely behind a rock , not moving for 20 minutes. And of course as soon as someone peeks behind the rock to see if they are close enough to ambush he has to make an active hide check.*

The rules are fine, you just have to remember why some skills you cant retry, and some you cant or dont want to take 10 or take 20 at

* and if they remembered the spots they where completely concealed in they wouldnt need hide checks because they have full concealment and cant be seen. thus only needing a hide check to see if they hid well enough, when they peek out.
Checks are only needed when there is a chance of failure. you can Hide (which means moving at half speed)when no one is around, you just dont need a check.....cus no one is around.

[Gwendol]

Sounds like quite the fight! There's a reason why I always have obscuring mist handy when playing cleric, it's one of those really useful spells to pull out in a clinch.