[3.5] Optimizing an epic Level character

[Nerethil]

Good morning everyone!

I've been asked to take part in an epic campaign as a player. The information I was given was as follows:

-You can make whatever you want as long as it's official 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder. It'll be a game based on the running events of Forgotten Realms (Rise of the Underdark) with political intrigue.

I was pretty happy to hear that, thinking that I shouldn't pay attention to the actual build and just focus on roleplaying. I decided to make a rogue/shadowdancer type of guy, part of the Zhentarim. What came next threw me off though:

-50 level character
-Be broken or you won't survive an epic campaign

So there you have it... I've already told my dm I'll be a rogue (plus I really wanted to go with that) so I can't really go back on my word. But the build is not final... Any suggestions?

The original build was this: 5 lvls rogue/11 lvls wiz/10 lvls arcane trickster/10 levels shadowdancer/6 lvls Teflaramm Shadowlord/5 lvls Zhentarim Spy (and I didn't know what to do with the remaining 3 lvls)

I hadn't checked out any feats or races...

Can you help me optimize the s**t out of a 50th-level roguish guy?

Thank you in advance

[jywu98]

If you're a caster, always, always, always take Epic Spellcasting if it isn't banned, and if you could take it. It's just that good.

[ShurikVch]

If your PC nonlawful, take a Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)
Void Presence (Ex): Opponents of a void incarnate unconsciously ignore the void incarnate's presence starting at 3rd level. They are always treated as flat-footed to the void incarnate (and thus may not apply their Dexterity modifier to AC). This lasts until the void incarnate attacks the opponent, but resumes again at the start of the void incarnate's next turn. This is a mind-affecting effect.
On higher levels it will give permanent Mind Blank, permanent Freedom of Movement and immunity to [force] effects.

[Carth]

Shadowdancer is only worthwhile for hide in plain sight. You can grab the hide in plain sight ability from a collar of umbral metamorphosis instead, which also grants the dark template, giving you bonuses that are right up your alley.

Wizard2/sorc2/rogue1/unseen seer5/zhentarim spy5/magelord10/incantatrix4/mindbender1/arcane trickster10/loremaster1/tef shadowlord4/unseen seer+5

Able to get exactly 20 levels of wizard and sorcerer casting, make sure to make incantatrix advance sorcerer so that you don't ban a school of magic on your wizard side

Unseen seer can learn divination spells from any list, use that to learn hunter's eye, which grants an additional sneak attack die per 3 caster levels

Magelord goes a long way toward making your wizard a spontaneous caster, too, so you'll pretty much always always be able to have the right spell

Death attack isn't worthwhile, once you get shadowpounce you should bail from shadowlord

Don't underestimate a loremaster's level 2 ability, bardic knowledge can be great, and you'll have a huge int score in at your level

Incantatrix gets you persist spell shenangians at level 3, make good use of them

Take the feat arcane disciple (luck), take the feat improved spell capacity enough times to get 17th level spell slots, then take the Complete Arcane version of innate spell. Pick miracle for innate spell. This effectively gives you unlimited spells of 7th level or lower from any class list, and unlimited 8th level cleric spells.

And just for kicks, take innate spell (time stop). This effectively gives you unlimited buffing time.

You'll want to use miracle to then cast body outside body, and persist it. By strict RAW, all copies created by body outside body can now also cast miracle and time stop at will, because they're casting it as a SLA, not as a spell.

Here's a good start for getting your intelligence extremely high so you're able to afford lots of skill points (though not all of these will get you skill points)

18 - base
+12 - level ups
+5 - inherent bonus
+2 - be old, just have the shapechange spell active all day long (perfect for a rogue anyway), and that eliminates the physical drawbacks of aging
+1 - be pooped out by the worm of Minauros (see Fiendish Codex 2)
+12 - epic headband of intellect
+4 - persist greater visage of the deity around the clock, get access to the spell by taking arcane disciple (competition domain, see Spell Comp.)
+4 - get infected with warp touch (Book of Vile Darkness), and if you don't get the +4 int bonus, use an amulet of second chances and mantle of second chances if you don't like the results, and try again the next day
+2 be a mushroom powder user (Book of Vile Darkness)
+2 racial bonus (be a gray elf)
Good for an int score of 62, which is an int mod of 21 that gets you bonus spells thusly (first number is level 1 spells, second is level 2 spells and so forth)
6 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1

So once you take improved spell capacity enough times to get 17th level spell slots, you can be sure that you'll have a good amount of bonus spells for those slots. :smallbiggrin:

Here's an off the top of my head feat progression:

Flaw: arcane disciple (destiny) - persist choose destiny from this domain to roll twice on all saves
Flaw: arcane disciple (luck)
Frog God's fane: skill focus (history)
Court of thieves: lucky start
Otyugh hole: iron will
Metamagic storm: twin spell (great for forcing things to make a save twice)
Wiz1: improved initiative (use martial variant to trade out scribe scroll)
Elf1: Quicken spell (use chaos shuffle to get rid of an elf's racial weapon feats)
Elf2: Repeat spell
Elf3: Maximize spell
Elf4: Empower spell
1: eschew materials
3: arcane disciple (competition)
6: deceitful (terrible pre req for zhent spy)
Unseen seer: silent spell
9: still spell
12: Mindsight
15: Spell mastery
18: Signature spell
Incantatrix1: extend spell
Incantatrix4: persist spell
21: Imp. spell capacity
24: Imp. spell capacity
27: Imp. spell capacity
30: Imp. spell capacity
33: Imp. spell capacity
36: Imp. spell capacity
39: Imp. spell capacity
42: Imp. spell capacity
45: Innate spell (miracle)
Loremaster: Innate spell (time stop)
48: Ignore material components


I intentionally did not use any feat slots on tef shadowlord's pre req feats, because I intent put shadowlord at the back of the build so that by the time you've taken it, you'll be able to cast the spell heroics often enough to always have those feats active. Once you're able to cast miracle at will, you'll simply have all fighter bonus feats all the time (except ones that require actual fighter levels), too. This also takes care of weapon focus (ray) for magelord.

Unless you're allowed to make up your own epic spells, epic spellcasting isn't really worthwhile, so I left it out. If you are able to, though...

The order of feats is probably wonky, but you're able to qualify for everything on time I'm pretty sure if you just move things around as needed.

[Randomguy]

11 levels of wizard is overkill. Take only a few levels and after that take skillgish prestige classes like Unseen Seer, spellwarped sniper and daggerspell mage.

If you're lawful and have a high wisdom, then a 2 level dip in monk will get you feats and evasion (which you can trade away for something), and give you all the feat prereqs for Infinite Deflection, Deflect Anything and Reflect arrows. These three epic feats in combination basically make you immune to all ranged attacks except area spells, and that's what evasion + improved evasion is for.
Make sure you take those monk levels early on, so that you benefit from the all good saves.

Consider being a spellthief instead of a rogue, if it doesn't mess up your build too much. They get some nice tricks.

[Jack_Simth]

Good morning everyone!

I've been asked to take part in an epic campaign as a player. The information I was given was as follows:

-You can make whatever you want as long as it's official 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder. It'll be a game based on the running events of Forgotten Realms (Rise of the Underdark) with political intrigue.
OK. Rogue-ish, eh?

Let's go with....

Wizard-3/Cloistered Cleric-3/Rogue-1/Unseen Seer(Complete Mage)-2/Arcane Trickster-10/Master Transmorgifist-10 (Complete Arcane)/Arcane Trickster+20

For your Master Transmorgifist Favored shapes, make sure to pick up the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and the Ocean Giant (Monster Manual II). Also grab Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm), enough Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) to use it on a 9th (or a way to reduce metamagic costs, that works too), Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), and Initiate of Mystra (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Persist Antimagic Field and Shapechange (Initiate of Mystra is in there to let you cast spells in an antimagic field). Use Shapechange to take the form of a Zodar (for the Invulnerability as an Ex special quality, which makes you immune to everything except Bludgeoning damage), and use the Master Transmorgifist capstone to grab the Ocean Giant's Immunity to Bludgeoning damage (also Ex).

There. You're now immune to everything the DM can throw at you short of:
1) Fiat or Homebrew.
2) Disjunction (which has a chance of penetrating antimagic fields)
3) Someone else with Initiate of Mystra and either disjunction or an uncapped dispel method (caster level of 41, so a standard Greater Dispel Magic can't touch you).
4) Epic Magic

To fix 2 & 3, you need an Epic Ward spell to make yourself immune to the spells that might dispel you. 1 you can never stop, and you're debatably immune to 4.

[Derpldorf]

If homebrew is allowed then try to get This Gem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13461676&postcount=18)

Provided you take it from lvl 21-50 it provides 75 virtual levels! Provided you have rogue progression up to 20 you could easily have an effective rogue level of 35 and a wizard and war blade level of 30 each, on top of whatever pre 20 Prc's you pick up.

[Slipperychicken]

Epic spells let you get away with all kinds of shenanigans, especially if you mitigate the DCs down to zero or near-zero, which is especially easy with your party members helping out with spellcasting. Like the Summon Seed.

Extend all Epic casting times to 100 days + 10 minutes (-218 spellcraft DC), then take Uncanny Forethought so you can cast the spell as a Full-Round action.

That alone can score you absurdly-powerful creatures of any type you want serving you.

Also, squeezing in 11 levels of Factotum may be nice to ignore SR and Magic Immunity.

[Vaz]

Here is how to break epic spellcasting by Level 21.

Get your Intelligence to 44. Easily done. Be a Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 10/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 2, advancing Wu Jen on Geomancer. At 20th level (Archmage 1, in this case)

This makes you 21st level, casting as an 18th level geomancer, with 4 9th's per day.

Cast Body Outside Body. Persist with Incantrix, Extend with Incantatrix. Congratulations, your 3+ Clones (typical Caster Level enhancement ups this to 8) last 48 hours. Each clone uses Miracle SLA 4x a day (so this means that they can use it 12 times in total each) to get Clones (BOB is a 7th level spell). Persist and Extend. Rinse and Repeat ad infinitum, until you've got arbitrary number of Clones. Each of these clones then supply an Epic Spell slot to reduce the DC. Each of these clones reduce the DC by 19, IIRC. You can easily get to around 10 million billion clones in the space of a minute or so.

For any buff spell, apply the Healing Seed, and then any other. My favourite is the one which allows you to become Invisible. As you take the shortest duration possible (Instantaneous is much shorter than 10 rounds or whatever). With the Unbeatably high DC (literally, choose any number in the world, and with enough time, you can beat the number of clones), it means that even epic equivalent true seeing cannot see you, and you are now completely and utterly invisible to everything in the world. I don't even think Divine Rank 30 can see you, although I don't have Deities and Demigod's to hand.

Sorted.

[Emperor Tippy]

You have fifty character levels.

Note that saves and BAB don't increase the same in epic.

I would probably go Monk 8/Factotum 19 (this gets you all good saves and 3/4th BAB, all skills as class skills, and the various class abilities)/ Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5/ Incatatrix 3.

Then you want to Chaos Shuffle so that you can rework all your feats.

You want Improved Spell Capacity three times for Factotum as that gives you a 10th level spell slot and thus let's you select up to 11 9th level spells each day.

You also want Improved Metamagic 4 times, combined with the Incantatrix capstone that reduces all meta by 5 (and can't go to zero) which means that any non epic meta can be used on any spell with just a +1 spell level per meta cost.

Ignore Material Components is also a good choice.

Multispell once or twice is also nice.

Grab Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection.

Epic Spellcasting goes without saying (assuming that it is allowed).

----
The problem is that with fifty levels there is a ton of things you can do. So long as you have 21 levels of Wizard and Epic Spellcasting, not much else matters all that much. Factotum synergies well and fills in most of the wizards "weaknesses".

[Nerethil]

I gotta say, I've overwhelmed and a bit lost!

Thank you all, I can see I've got quite some studying to do, it'll take a while before I can work out what all those builds can do and which one I'm more interested in.

From what I can see most of you have focused on the spellcasting part of the progression. Does that mean that a more direct approach, focusing on melee or ranged attacks wouldn't really stand a chance?

[Vaz]

Spellcasting is strong enough in the base game. What melee character allows you to Wish, Apocalypse from the Sky or Transcend Mortality? Throw in epic casting and you can pretty much recreate any feat in the game, but make it better.

If it is a buff, just apply the Healing seed and not only does it heal you but it instantly and irrevocably grants you that ability, provided it is passive. (I.e a spell doing DR 30/epic hasa nominal DC of 50. Make its DC 75 or so with Healing and spawn/summon/pay/mindrape an army oflow level casters to donate spellslots in a ritual (or do like the Wu Jen/Archmage above) to off set that cost. It is now an Instantaneous duration, rather than X rounds or minutes etc.

Epic is where the game falls apart, once Spellcasting comes into play. For mundane, it is fine and quite fun, one i like to play with Deities and Demigods, with.

[jywu98]

I gotta say, I've overwhelmed and a bit lost!

Thank you all, I can see I've got quite some studying to do, it'll take a while before I can work out what all those builds can do and which one I'm more interested in.

From what I can see most of you have focused on the spellcasting part of the progression. Does that mean that a more direct approach, focusing on melee or ranged attacks wouldn't really stand a chance?

Maybe "wouldn't stand a chance" is a bit too harsh, but it is very ineffective compared to casting/manifesting.

[herrhauptmann]

I gotta say, I've overwhelmed and a bit lost!

Thank you all, I can see I've got quite some studying to do, it'll take a while before I can work out what all those builds can do and which one I'm more interested in.

From what I can see most of you have focused on the spellcasting part of the progression. Does that mean that a more direct approach, focusing on melee or ranged attacks wouldn't really stand a chance?

You said it has to be broken or it won't survive a game.
There's a lot of stuff you have to become immune to to survive an epic game. And there's a lot of stuff you have to be able to do to be effective in an epic level game.
You can do it with items as a warrior or rogue type, with scrolls/wands via UMD which eats a bit of your WBL. Or you can be a caster. Where you can get those things via your spells, leaving you to spend your wealth on other things.

In other words, listen to Tippy. Maybe look into his Tippyverse explanation(s). Tippys advice on casting=win.

[Carth]

I gotta say, I've overwhelmed and a bit lost!

Thank you all, I can see I've got quite some studying to do, it'll take a while before I can work out what all those builds can do and which one I'm more interested in.

From what I can see most of you have focused on the spellcasting part of the progression. Does that mean that a more direct approach, focusing on melee or ranged attacks wouldn't really stand a chance?

I fought very hard against removing tef shadowlord from my build. I think mine maintains enough rogueness that it's plausible, but as has been mentioned, if you want to keep up at level 50, you basically need spellcasting. That said, my build has plenty of sneak attack progression, I'm pretty sure it gets at least 12d6, and you've got every fighter bonus feat ever complementing that. Plus, you've got an army of clones that also have every fighter bonus feat ever (they can all cast time stop and miracle at will to buff themselves to the hilt) that also have all your class levels, feats, and abilities.

[Emperor Tippy]

I gotta say, I've overwhelmed and a bit lost!

Thank you all, I can see I've got quite some studying to do, it'll take a while before I can work out what all those builds can do and which one I'm more interested in.

From what I can see most of you have focused on the spellcasting part of the progression. Does that mean that a more direct approach, focusing on melee or ranged attacks wouldn't really stand a chance?

Before anything else you need to ask your DM whether Epic Spellcasting is in play or not and, if it is in play, what house rules or gentlemen's agreements he is using for it.

With Epic Spellcasting there is nothing that you can't do in D&D. Want to teleport a planet? I can tell you how to do it at no cost at level 21. Want to *create* a star? I can tell you how to do it at no cost at level 21. Want to shut down all casting by anyone else across the entire planet? I can tell you how to do it at no cost at level 21.

If Epic Spellcasting is in play and you want to remain able to compete in Epic then you need to have it. That means that you need your twenty or so levels in a spell casting class.

If you DM is smart and bans epic spellcasting then it's somewhat different.

---
Now, taking more that twenty or so spell casting levels in generally a waste. You don't gain higher level spell slots, you don't gain more spells, you don't gain more AB, you don't gain better saves, etc.

The only real benefit is to pick up the various special abilities from casting PrC's; and most of those are a whole lot less useful in Epic.

----
Now you are building a character that starts at level 50, and thus doesn't have to survive to that point.

That means that your first twenty levels should be in non casting classes with higher AB and saves, generally.

Honestly, Fighter is a good choice. You get d10 HD, full AB, and 11 extra feats.

Use the Chaos Shuffle to replace four of those 11 feats with Iron Will, Epic Will, Lighting Reflexes, and Epic Reflexes. That nets you +6 to both Reflex and Will saves and thus, effectively, gives you all good saves.

So full AB, all good saves, d10 HD for 20 levels, (crap skills though), and seven feats.

Now take three levels of Wizard, three levels of Psion, and seventeen levels of Cerebremancer. That gets you 20th level Wizard casting and 20th level Psion Manifesting.

That should put you at level 43.

I would probably fill the remaining seven levels with Factotum but there are also casting PrC's and other options.

The end result of all of this is full AB, three good saves, 20th level Wizard casting, 20th level Psion Manifesting, crap skills, decent HP, and seven extra feats.

Now create an Ice Assassin of yourself. Then have it take Epic Expanded Knowledge, Expanded Knowledge, and Power Knowledge to end up with all of the Powers in the game that you don't otherwise have before having said Ice Assassin use Psychic Chirurgery to permanently give you all of those powers. When it runs out of XP just create a new Ice Assassin until you have all of the powers in the game.

Spend your feats on the various things that make you a better caster and the rest taking Great Intelligence. That generally provides the most bang for your buck.

I would also finish off Factotum as you level up and then grab a good amount of Font of Inspiration. The 11th level ability to ignore Spell Resistance is a huge boon, as is Cunning Surge.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions or for explanations.

[AmberVael]

You want Improved Spell Capacity three times for Factotum as that gives you a 10th level spell slot and thus let's you select up to 11 9th level spells each day.

Does this actually work? Factotum can't actually cast spells, after all. Is their pseudo-casting actually enough to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity?

My impression is that it wouldn't, but maybe there's some kind of wording loophole that I'm not quite seeing?

[Jack_Simth]

Does this actually work? Factotum can't actually cast spells, after all. Is their pseudo-casting actually enough to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity?

My impression is that it wouldn't, but maybe there's some kind of wording loophole that I'm not quite seeing?

Yep. The loophole is hiding under the definition of spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities):
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell(emphasis added)

So by *Core* RAW, your spell like ability counts as a spell of it's level for the purposes of feat requirements, PrC requirements, and so on. I believe Complete Arcane and The Rules Compendium may have something else to say about that, however.

[vhfforever]

Honestly, just to keep it as simple and versatile as you can I would go for triple 9's until 20th level and then just use the last 29 levels (because you'll be taking Epic Spellcasting...right?) to add whatever kind of flavor you want into your build.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does this actually work? Factotum can't actually cast spells, after all. Is their pseudo-casting actually enough to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity?

My impression is that it wouldn't, but maybe there's some kind of wording loophole that I'm not quite seeing?

See Jack Smith's response, but yes it does work.

Oh, when did you get your name changed?

[Slipperychicken]

Honestly, just to keep it as simple and versatile as you can I would go for triple 9's until 20th level and then just use the last 29 levels (because you'll be taking Epic Spellcasting...right?) to add whatever kind of flavor you want into your build.

First 20 levels, you want to cram in all the BAB you can (without compromising the build or feat progression, of course. Magic > BAB), because you use Epic Attack Bonus afterward, which scales the same for everyone and IIRC doesn't give extra attacks. Of course, you'll want to qualify for all the magic feats you take in those first 20 levels, so keep on top of that.

[vhfforever]

First 20 levels, you want to cram in all the BAB you can (without compromising the build or feat progression, of course. Magic > BAB), because you use Epic Attack Bonus afterward, which scales the same for everyone and IIRC doesn't give extra attacks. Of course, you'll want to qualify for all the magic feats you take in those first 20 levels, so keep on top of that.

If Epic Spellcasting is on the table, BAB doesn't matter. Also, when using Beholder Mage to get your trip-9's, you really never have to worry about making an attack roll, you simply spam 10 spells a round and use the save-game trick from your manifesting classes to go back in time if someone every actually does get the jump on you.

[Jack_Simth]

See Jack Smith's response, but yes it does work.

Oh, when did you get your name changed?
It's always been "Simth" rather than "Smith". It's deliberate, to see who is paying attention.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's always been "Simth" rather than "Smith". It's deliberate, to see who is paying attention.

Nah, I know about yours. I was talking about Vael. I was curious when the Amber appeared.

[Slipperychicken]

If Epic Spellcasting is on the table, BAB doesn't matter. Also, when using Beholder Mage to get your trip-9's, you really never have to worry about making an attack roll, you simply spam 10 spells a round and use the save-game trick from your manifesting classes to go back in time if someone every actually does get the jump on you.

It's nice to have it around as long as you aren't sacrificing anything for it. Like if you're taking Factoum20 anyway, there's no reason to lose out on the BAB. Besides, he wants to be a rogue-type, so he's going to make an attack roll sometime.

[Jack_Simth]

It's nice to have it around as long as you aren't sacrificing anything for it. Like if you're taking Factoum20 anyway, there's no reason to lose out on the BAB. Besides, he wants to be a rogue-type, so he's going to make an attack roll sometime.
...
Isn't that what a Persistent Divine Power is for? BAB=character level (50, in this case... which technically stacks with the Epic Attack Bonus...)?

Nah, I know about yours.
And yet, you spelled it "Smith" ....

[Emperor Tippy]

If Epic Spellcasting is on the table, BAB doesn't matter. Also, when using Beholder Mage to get your trip-9's, you really never have to worry about making an attack roll, you simply spam 10 spells a round and use the save-game trick from your manifesting classes to go back in time if someone every actually does get the jump on you.

And then you face someone with Infinite and Exceptional Deflection and he laughs at virtually all of your spells.

Then you have the Epic Ward spells that just completely no sell all non epic spells (regardless of SR or save DC).


And yet, you spelled it "Smith" ....

My dyslexia automatically corrects spelling mistakes like that. ;)

[vhfforever]

It's nice to have it around as long as you aren't sacrificing anything for it. Like if you're taking Factoum20 anyway, there's no reason to lose out on the BAB. Besides, he wants to be a rogue-type, so he's going to make an attack roll sometime.

Well, that is true enough, but at that point you're putting your build on the back end and just saying it came first. Build the first 20 levels with a combination of full or Medium BAB progressing classes and all of the ACF's or Substitution levels you could dream of to fulfill the theme (Zhent Fighter, Ranger with th Trapfinding ACF, Hexblade with the Dark Companion ACF, Swashbuckler for skill points and a bonus feat, Vecna-blooded for undetectability, etc etc etc) just to hit your BAB 16 and have saves as close to full as you can manage.

In all honestly, with 50 levels, anything is possible. Heck, with 21 anything is possible. If you 'have to be bringing broken to the table' to be able to make it, there's very little better than an unfindable, unkillable, spell-spamming engine of destruction, shar-betraying, mystra-initiated beast that doesn't even really have to do anything to get through the day.

You have enough levels to pile on basically every dirty trick for survival you could want, and still build for your flavor with the fluff.

[Carth]

If you want to be fiddly with exploiting how pre epic transitions into epic, forget about BAB. You can raise your BAB with divine power, which only costs a feat (which I took in the build I posted already). Instead, focus on jacking up your base saves by multiclassing as much as you can pre epic.

[AmberVael]

Yep. The loophole is hiding under the definition of spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities):(emphasis added)

So by *Core* RAW, your spell like ability counts as a spell of it's level for the purposes of feat requirements, PrC requirements, and so on. I believe Complete Arcane and The Rules Compendium may have something else to say about that, however.

Hm... I guess I can see that reasoning, though I dunno that I would quite interpret it that way. Seems like there's a difference between functioning like something else, and actually counting as something else.

But it's a kind of ambiguous argument in the end, and if a factotum wants to spend epic feats to get higher level spell slots, okay. The world won't end.


See Jack Smith's response, but yes it does work.

Oh, when did you get your name changed?

01-13-2013 at 06:47 PM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13556996&postcount=445)

[Mishkov]

I'd just go druid 40/Master of Many Forms 10. Sit in Tarrasque form all day.

There's many other epic feats to let you shift into magical beasts/dragons/whatever you feel like. You have epic casting of a druid and can basically shift into most anything in the game with any of their EX abilities and attacks. 50 HD is a lot.

(...ok it's not a rogue, but it is funny)

[Randomguy]

OK. Rogue-ish, eh?

Let's go with....

Wizard-3/Cloistered Cleric-3/Rogue-1/Unseen Seer(Complete Mage)-2/Arcane Trickster-10/Master Transmorgifist-10 (Complete Arcane)/Arcane Trickster+20

For your Master Transmorgifist Favored shapes, make sure to pick up the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and the Ocean Giant (Monster Manual II). Also grab Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm), enough Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) to use it on a 9th (or a way to reduce metamagic costs, that works too), Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), and Initiate of Mystra (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Persist Antimagic Field and Shapechange (Initiate of Mystra is in there to let you cast spells in an antimagic field). Use Shapechange to take the form of a Zodar (for the Invulnerability as an Ex special quality, which makes you immune to everything except Bludgeoning damage), and use the Master Transmorgifist capstone to grab the Ocean Giant's Immunity to Bludgeoning damage (also Ex).

There. You're now immune to everything the DM can throw at you short of:
1) Fiat or Homebrew.
2) Disjunction (which has a chance of penetrating antimagic fields)
3) Someone else with Initiate of Mystra and either disjunction or an uncapped dispel method (caster level of 41, so a standard Greater Dispel Magic can't touch you).
4) Epic Magic

To fix 2 & 3, you need an Epic Ward spell to make yourself immune to the spells that might dispel you. 1 you can never stop, and you're debatably immune to 4.

I feel the need to point out this doesn't actually work: You can only use the Master Transmogrifier capstone to add abilities onto a base "favoured form", which needs to be a form that you can assume via polymorph, not shapechange. Zodars have 16hd, so you can't pick a zodar as a favoured form. Well, not unless you took Reserves of Strength. But really, how many layers of cheese do you need?

Also, at this level CL 50 isn't too hard to get, so disjunction without any boosters has a 50% chance of breaking an AMF, and that's without CL boosting feats and items. Also, there are epic magic dispels.

Of course, the above druid build would be able to do the same thing better by turning into a Protean.

I wonder: How good would the Mage Slayer line be in epic? It wouldn't even hinder casting much, and if you really wanted to even out the CL you could take Practiced Spellcaster 3 times. Funnily enough, Pierce Magical Protection will let you rip through even an Epic Mage Armour spell. That plus wraithstrike would be a killer combination, since almost all deflection bonuses are from spells, or from natural armour + scintillating scales, which you would ignore either way.

[Jack_Simth]

I feel the need to point out this doesn't actually work: You can only use the Master Transmogrifier capstone to add abilities onto a base "favoured form", which needs to be a form that you can assume via polymorph, not shapechange. Zodars have 16hd, so you can't pick a zodar as a favoured form. Well, not unless you took Reserves of Strength. But really, how many layers of cheese do you need?
Well, the capstone is phrased "At 10th level, a master transmogrifist gains the ability to create completely imaginary forms when he casts polymorph, polymorph any object, or shapechange on himself." (emphasis added) and only the base form needs to be on the favored shapes list. The second form simply needs to be one he's able to assume with the spell he's using. So... yeah, it works with Shapechange. easily, and arguably with PAO if you bypass the HD cap somehow.



Also, at this level CL 50 isn't too hard to get, so disjunction without any boosters has a 50% chance of breaking an AMF, and that's without CL boosting feats and items. Also, there are epic magic dispels.
...

I mentioned both of those in the section you quoted, although I didn't give numbers.


Of course, the above druid build would be able to do the same thing better by turning into a Protean.
Maybe, maybe not. Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) is Su; do you know of any method by which to maintain Supernatural abilities in an antimagic field? If not, there's a relatively easy way (in Epic, anyway) to turn off your defences. Also, post-wildshape-errata, Wildshape is based on Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) (rather than Polymorph), which specifies "The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form." - and the protean's Alter Shape is listed under special qualities, not special attacks.

[icefractal]

-50 level character
-Be broken or you won't survive an epic campaignThe problem with this is that "be broken" is pretty divergent even at 15th level, much less 50th. At 50th, there are no good benchmarks for what a character should be able to do, and one build could easily be 1000 times stronger than another. Not an exaggeration.

For example, if someone told me to make a 25th level character, and emphasized that it should be broken, and I believed them, I would make something with an infinite loop. But let's assume that those are out (probably the right assumption). I'd still end up with at least this:
* An army of hundreds of high-level monsters, all securely mind-controlled (or Ice Assassins) and buffed to the teeth, so each one is effectively CR 30+ ...
* ... which are operating out of my significantly large, intelligent, constantly changing extradimensional space, which poses a serious hazard to any intruders ...
* ... and which I never leave, operating entirely by Astral Projection, so that I can come back from anything in about 18 seconds, with my full resources for the day restored.
* Also I have Epic Spells that give me huge bonuses to everything important, create a Mythal of every useful effect, and make it impossible for any of that to be dispelled.
* And this is without any build-specific stuff, which would bump it up a bit more.

By 50th level - I don't even know. Mostly just more of the same, but add in every special trick of every useful class. Probably has several dozen absolute responses to just about anything.

The character would absolute crush anybody with a lesser definition of broken, and be absolutely crushed by anybody with a greater definition. And this is differences of definition that might be not even be apparent in a 10th level game.

So - Step #1 - Find out what your DM considers "broken".

[Nerethil]

The problem with this is that "be broken" is pretty divergent even at 15th level, much less 50th. At 50th, there are no good benchmarks for what a character should be able to do, and one build could easily be 1000 times stronger than another. Not an exaggeration.

For example, if someone told me to make a 25th level character, and emphasized that it should be broken, and I believed them, I would make something with an infinite loop. But let's assume that those are out (probably the right assumption). I'd still end up with at least this:
* An army of hundreds of high-level monsters, all securely mind-controlled (or Ice Assassins) and buffed to the teeth, so each one is effectively CR 30+ ...
* ... which are operating out of my significantly large, intelligent, constantly changing extradimensional space, which poses a serious hazard to any intruders ...
* ... and which I never leave, operating entirely by Astral Projection, so that I can come back from anything in about 18 seconds, with my full resources for the day restored.
* Also I have Epic Spells that give me huge bonuses to everything important, create a Mythal of every useful effect, and make it impossible for any of that to be dispelled.
* And this is without any build-specific stuff, which would bump it up a bit more.

By 50th level - I don't even know. Mostly just more of the same, but add in every special trick of every useful class. Probably has several dozen absolute responses to just about anything.

The character would absolute crush anybody with a lesser definition of broken, and be absolutely crushed by anybody with a greater definition. And this is differences of definition that might be not even be apparent in a 10th level game.

So - Step #1 - Find out what your DM considers "broken".

Truth be told, he's extremely generic. He considers the classic chain-gun tripper build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870774/Fighter-20:_The_34;Gatling_Chain_Gun34;_Tripper) broken and told me to find something of equal broken-ness...

I did learn that epic spellcastin is allowed.

My problem is that I can't really figure out what type of campaign will this be. The reason I went with Teflaram Shadowlord is because he suggested it (I hadn't heard of it before) because he thought that disolving into shadows instead of dying was really cool. Indeed it is, but considering the DC is a reflex save based on the damage you receive, I think it's actually pretty useless (especially at higher levels when the damage becomes enormous)...

So there you have it. I have no idea what does the DM consider broken and since it'll be my first time playing with him I have no way of telling what he's gonna throw at us.

I spent a good two hours looking up the builds and spells and I still have questions here and there, but I get the gist of it all. From what I can tell, I use Factotum to make me fill in the gaps of every class there is other than arcane caster (thus going rogue-ish) and then actually max out an arcane casting class so I'm practically awesome all around, right?

I'll be asking my dm whether or not can I use psionic stuffs as well and get back to you on that

[vhfforever]

From what I can tell, I use Factotum to make me fill in the gaps of every class there is other than arcane caster (thus going rogue-ish) and then actually max out an arcane casting class so I'm practically awesome all around, right?

That is basically the entire gist of it, yes. Though, just for multiple attacks sake, it would be

Factotum 16, full BAB 4, Factotum +4, Broken Casting Classes 30

[Randomguy]

Well, the capstone is phrased "At 10th level, a master transmogrifist gains the ability to create completely imaginary forms when he casts polymorph, polymorph any object, or shapechange on himself." (emphasis added) and only the base form needs to be on the favored shapes list. The second form simply needs to be one he's able to assume with the spell he's using. So... yeah, it works with Shapechange. easily, and arguably with PAO if you bypass the HD cap somehow.


That's kind of my point. With these limitations, you can't


Use Shapechange to take the form of a Zodar (for the Invulnerability as an Ex special quality, which makes you immune to everything except Bludgeoning damage), and use the Master Transmorgifist capstone to grab the Ocean Giant's Immunity to Bludgeoning damage (also Ex).


since you can't use the Master Transmogrifist capstone to add anything onto a Zodar base form, since the base form has to be on the favoured shapes list. You can take the form of a Zodar, or staple the Zodar's invulnerability special quality onto one of your favoured shapes, but you can't staple anything onto a Zodar. You can't take Ocean Giant as the base shape and staple Zodar stuff onto that either, since Ocean Giant also has too many HD for polymorph.