This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]

[Amechra]

This isn't a Fix
This isn't a fix because I am sick and tired of fixes. I'm calling it a rewrite so that I can feel good about what I'm doing, rather than dirty inside.

Thank you for listening.

The Monk

Be like the man who is distributing the beating. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upwyWKzozII)

We cannot deny our origin; birds fly, flowers grow, and, my friend, I hurt people.

You know what a monk is! Do not deny it; they are the warriors who, with nothing but their own hands, stand against their foes. They are light on their feat, and strong in their nature.

They took the name "monk" after their cloistered nature, like unto the monks of the religious orders, though beyond that the two groups share no truly common traits.

MAKING A MONK
You run up to someone and punch them in the face. Hard. Often. Let them know how much you enjoy demolishing them without taking up a weapon.
Abilities: It would be best for you to look to Wisdom, as it is what most of the class is based off of; Intelligence gives you the knowledge of when not to fight, and Charisma gives you the drive to do it anyway.
Races: Monks appear most often among the arrogant elves and the presumptuous humans, though they are quite common among other races, as the training only takes your bare hands and common clothing.
Alignment: A monk may be of any alignment; their training is not some presumptuous doctrine, that it would restrict itself to those of some belief!
Starting Gold: 1d4x10(25 gp)
Starting Age: As Monk.

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int) (all taken individually), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d8


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Abundant Step
1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Unarmed Fighter (1d8), Thousand Fists|-
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Unorthodox Expertise, Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|-
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Unarmed Fighter (1d8, +1), Abundant Step|10'
4th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Elegant Defense, School of Hard Knocks|10'
5th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Unarmed Fighter (2d8, +1), Iron Fists, Imperishable Body|10'
6th|+4|+5|+5|+5|School of Hard Knocks, Rough and Tumble|10'
7th|+5|+5|+5|+5|Unarmed Fighter (2d8, +2), Eyes of Clarity|20'
8th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Improved Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|20'
9th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Unarmed Fighter (3d8, +2), Righteous Fist|20'
10th|+7/+2|+7|+7|+7|School of Hard Knocks, Unlimited Activity|20'
11th|+8/+3|+7|+7|+7|Unarmed Fighter (3d8, +3), Imperishable Mind|30'
12th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Flawless Defense, School of Hard Knocks|30'
13th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Unarmed Fighter (4d8, +3)|30'
14th|+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|School of Hard Knocks, Wholeness of Body|30'
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+9|+9|Unarmed Fighter (4d8, +4), Imperishable Self|40'
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|School of Hard Knocks, Empty Step|40'
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Unarmed Fighter (5d8, +4)|40'
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|School of Hard Knocks, Splintering Fist|40'
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Unarmed Fighter (5d8, +5)|50'
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|School of Hard Knocks, Perfection of Form|50'[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Monk is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as any weapon that is a "special monk weapon"; they are not proficient in any form of armor.

Unarmed Fighter (Ex): A monk is beautiful to watch in a fight, a testament to the monstrous nature of combat.

At 1st level, a Monk gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat, dealing damage with their Unarmed Strike as indicated on the above table.

In addition, they may add their Wisdom modifier to their attack rolls in place of their Strength modifier when they make attacks with their Unarmed Strike. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Monk's unarmed strike deals an additional die of damage.

Additionally, a monk that is not currently experiencing a penalty to any of their skills due to armor or encumbrance adds their Wisdom modifier to their Armor Class as a Dodge bonus. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and ever 4 levels thereafter.

Thousand Fists (Ex): A Monk strikes with a speed that would be utterly impossible to duplicate by a normal human being.

At 1st level, a Monk may make an attack with their Unarmed Strike as a Swift action.

Unorthodox Expertise (Ex): A Monk is able to do things that a lesser person would find to be fairly exceptional. I mean, if they really thought about it.

A Monk of at least 2nd level is constantly under the effects of the Feather Fall spell; in addition, the Monk weighs 25 lbs less for each class level that they have, to a minimum of 1 ounce, whenever it would be beneficial for them.

Finally, they may balance on any surface that can support their weight as if it were 2 inches wide, and do not take a -5 penalty on their Balance check for moving up to their speed.

Evasion (Ex): As the Rogue class feature.

School of Hard Knocks (Ex): A Monk has learned the most basic of lessons; get good, or wash out. They have taken this lesson to heart.

At 2nd level, and every even level thereafter, a Monk may choose to either gain Skill Mastery with one of their class skills (allowing them to take 10 on that skill, even under stressful circumstances), or to gain a single Skill Trick that they qualify for; Skill Tricks gained through this class feature don't count towards the maximum number of Skill Tricks that they may have.

Abundant Step (Ex): A Monk has learned the secret of surging forward really, really quickly.

A Monk of at least 3rd level may use a Swift action as part of a Move or Run action to increase their speed for that turn by the amount listed on the table above, and gains a bonus to Tumble and Balance checks during that movement equal to half their class level.

Alternatively, a Monk may instead use their Swift action to increase the distance of their next 5' step to equal the distance listed on the table above.

Elegant Defense (Ex): A Monk has learned how to elegantly and daintily slap aside the arrows and slings of their foes, as well as how to better defend their vitals from the blows of others.

A Monk of at least 4th level may, as an immediate action, cause a ranged attack to miss. They must be aware of the attack.

Alternatively, they may take an immediate action to gain Light Fortification until the beginning of their next round.

Iron Fists (Ex): A Monk's fists have become far harder than stone in your long travels. Far, far harder.

A Monk of at least 5th level ignores all hardness and damage reduction that would be bypassed by magical weapons or a specific material when making Unarmed Attacks. In addition, they Unarmed Strikes are treated as magical weapons when determining whether or not they would hit an Incorporeal opponent.

Imperishable Body (Ex): A Monk could sleep on broken glass without discomfort, and can walk through a plague-zone without dying. It is simply their nature.

A Monk of at least 5th level adds their class level to their character level when determining how many hit points they regain by resting, and may treat any time where they get at least 8 hours of sleep as 8 hours of restful sleep for the purpose of regaining hit points.

In addition, they may choose to make an additional save against a poison or a disease as an Immediate action. If they succeed, they are treated as if they had succeeded on the original save. They may only make 1 additional save against the effect, and must make the save within a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Finally, the Monk's flesh is immune to rot and decay; if they die or parts of their body are removed, those body parts are affected as if by an extraordinary Gentle Repose effect.

Rough and Tumble (Ex): A Monk is full of pep and ready for any sort of fight that you could throw at him.

A Monk of at least 6th level adds their Wisdom modifier to any Strength or Dexterity check that they make as an Insight bonus. In addition, they may use their Wisdom modifier in place of their Strength modifier when determining how much damage their Unarmed Strikes deal.

Finally, whenever a Monk uses or is targeted by a special combat maneuver, the bonus that their opponent gains from size is halved.

Eyes of Clarity (Ex): A Monk can see the invisible and can strike things that aren't even there; how can you hope to fight such a monster?

A Monk of at least 7th level gains Blind Fight as a bonus feat, and additionally halves the bonus to Hide checks that another creature gets for being invisible when they roll Spot checks. If they already have Blind Fight upon gaining this class feature, the benefits of the feat apply to all attacks instead of just melee attacks, and they reduce any miss chance from concealment above 20% down to 20%.

Finally, they may now use Elegant Defense against attacks that they are not aware of.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As the Rogue class feature.

Righteous Fist (Ex): A Monk may strike others just as they are being struck! It is a glorious method of combat!

A Monk of at least 9th level may use their Thousand Fists class feature as an Immediate action.

Unlimited Actions (Ex): A Monk has reflexes that make a normal mortal confused as to what is happening.

A Monk of at least 10th level gains an additional Immediate action each round, which may only be used to use their Abundant Step, Elegant Defense, Imperishable Body, or Thousand Fists class features.

Imperishable Mind (Ex): A Monk thinks in a proper manner, and will not be swayed by mere tricks!

A Monk of at least 11th level may use Imperishable Body to make saves against Mind-Affecting abilities, and furthermore may use Imperishable Body even if they are not consciously capable or willing to use the ability themselves, such as if they are dominated, or if they are asleep.

In addition, a Monk gains the benefit of the Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body.

Finally, they may use Imperishable Body against a single effect twice.

Flawless Defense (Ex): A Monk is not struck unless they wish to be.

A Monk of at least 12th level may apply their Elegant Defense class feature to melee attacks. Alternatively, if they choose to gain Light Fortification, they instead gain Heavy Fortification for the same duration.

Wholeness of Body (Ex): A Monk sees no reason to quit! Never, and even a day after that!

A Monk of at least 14th level gains DR X/- on any round where they use Elegant Defense to grant themselves Heavy Fortification, where X is equal to their Wisdom modifier.

In addition, whenever a Monk successfully uses Imperishable Body to negate an effect, they regain a number of hit points equal to half of their class level plus their Wisdom modifier.

Finally, as a Swift action, a Monk may regain a number of hit points equal to half their class level plus their Wisdom modifier.

Imperishable Self (Ex): A Monk may not be changed unless they will it.

A Monk of at least 15th level may use Imperishable Body to apply to Death effects and Polymorph effects; they may use Imperishable Body for 1 round after they die, despite the fact that dead creatures can't take actions.

In addition, a Monk gains the benefits of the Improved Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body.

Finally, they are utterly immune to any effect that would remove one of their limbs without their consent; for the purposes of this class feature, the head is a limb.

Empty Step (Ex): A Monk will not be stopped by a simple patch of clinging vines, nor even ropes that tether them! They can simply slip free, and move on!

Whenever a Monk of at least 16th level either increases their speed due to Abundant Step or increases the distance of a 5' step with the same class feature, that movement ignores difficult terrain, as well as any effect that would immobilize, entangle, or slow them; in addition, that movement instantly frees the Monk from any effect that was inflicting any of the above.

This does not allow the Monk to move through barriers that would completely block their movement.

In addition, the Monk may Take 15 on any skill check made as part of this movement.

Splintering Fist (Ex): A Monk is a lethal combatant, whose fists threaten life and limb!

Whenever a Monk of at least 18th level makes an attack due to Thousand Fists against a creature that they have successfully attacked at least once this round, they may choose to deal 4 Constitution damage instead of the base damage of their Unarmed Strike.

If the attack would be a critical hit, they may elect to deal their normal base damage plus 4 Constitution damage.

If a creature would be killed by one of the Monk's Unarmed Strikes, they may elect to make that creature's body too damaged to resurrect with any effect short of True Resurrection.

Perfection of Form (Ex): A Monk has become so potent that they are resistant to most everything. They don't like to brag though.

A Monk of at least 20th level no longer has a maximum age. In addition, whenever they use Elegant Defense, they may choose to gain Total Cover against the next detrimental effect that targets them.

Furthermore, their Unarmed Strike now bypasses all forms of damage reduction.

Finally, all penalties due to distance to their skill checks and attack rolls are halved.

PLAYING A MONK
You get in someone's face, and you beat them down. They cast some big "death spell" on you? Shake death off an continue punching them in the face.
Combat: Face, meet fist. FIST! MEET! FACE!.
Advancement: Advance however you feel like.
Resources: A Monk has a ton of resources, because they are at least a bit respected by those around them now.

CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD
"That's no Monk! I'm a Monk! Guys? Guys? Why are you taking him instead of me?"
-Some "Monk"

A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!
Daily Life: Wake up, wondering about what crazy things you got up to in the bar. Roll over, and notice with satisfaction that it's just one of your groupies. Then you have an awesome day.
Notables: There have been many monks, but none are so famous as Frank the Brawler (Monk 6), who came from a small town, running away from the angry mob whipped up by a Cleric who disapproved of his whoring ways.
Organizations: A Monk fits in anywhere where they want someone who can fight that still has some smarts.

NPC Reaction
It largely depends on how a Monk spends his time; if he spends it beating up malcontents and protecting a town, he is lauded; if he keeps beating people up for lunch money, he is frowned upon.

MONKS IN THE GAME
A Monk's main advantage is that he has a solid bank of swift and immediate action abilities. Honestly, if a ToB class wouldn't unbalance your campaign, the Monk will be fine.
Adaptation: The Monk is just a tough guy who fights smart. It's not that hard of a concept to twist to your purposes.
Encounters: They may meet them anywhere, ranging from one of the before-mentioned bars to the depths of dungeons or in forbidden temples.

Monk Feats

Kung-Fu Genius [Monk]
You focus far more on smarts than on experience; you do have to put up with people saying that your glasses look dorky, though.
Prerequisites: Must be taking your first level of Monk, Int 13
Benefit: The benefits of your Monk class features are based off of your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier.

Hot-Blooded Sifu [Monk]
You got where you are more due to your chutzpah than your insight.
Prerequisites: Must be taking your first level of Monk, Cha 13
Benefit: The benefits of your Monk class features are based off of your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier.

Monastic Weapon User [Monk]
You are particularly good with a specific weapon; you are so damn good, in fact, that you can do such crazy tricks with it...
Prerequisites: Unarmed Fighter (1d8)
Benefit: You are proficient in a single Light, One-Handed, or Ranged Martial weapon of your choice. In addition, any of your Monk class features that apply to your Unarmed Strike apply to this weapon as well, including the alteration to the damage dealt by your Unarmed Strikes due to Unarmed Fighter.
Special: Improvised Weapons count as a One-Handed Martial weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Ascetic Hunter [Monk]
You have combined your focus as a hunter with your drive as a brawler. Excellent.
Prerequisites: Favored Enemy, Unarmored Fighter (1d8/+1)
Benefit: Your levels in the Ranger and the Monk classes stack for the purpose of your Favored Enemy and Unarmored Fighter class features.

In addition, against your Favored Enemies, you may replace your Dodge bonus to Armor Class from Unarmored Fighter with your Wisdom bonus plus the relevant Favored Enemy bonus.

For example, if you were a Monk 3/Ranger 3 with a Wisdom of 18 and Favored Enemy (Dragons) +4, you would have a +8 Dodge bonus to AC against Dragons, instead of the +5 you would gain against a lesser enemy.

Mystical Body [General]
Following certain mystic traditions, you are capable of enchanting your body as if it were weapons and armor.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, 3rd level.
Benefit: Your Unarmed Strikes are treated as either Masterwork Manufactured Weapon (granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls) or natural weapons, whichever would be better for you at that particular moment.

At any time, you may retreat to a location significant to you, and spend time in practice in order to awaken the mystic power of your body. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your wish to emulate, and the worth of all the valuable items that you have sacrificed so far.

This sacrifice does not have to be gold--you can sacrifice magic items or other goods worth the required amount, rather than selling your goods (at half value) to pay for the sacrifice. You must spend 1 day per 1,000 gp value you sacrifice. During this time, you must spend at least 8 hours each day in practice or meditation, not stopping to eat or rest.

You are limited in terms of how much you can "spend" on your Unarmed Strikes as given on the following table:

{table]Character Level|Maximum Wealth Invested
3rd|1350 gp
4th|2700 gp
5th|4500 gp
6th|6500 gp
7th|9500 gp
8th|13500 gp
9th|18000 gp
10th|24500 gp
11th|33000 gp
12th|44000 go
13th|55000 gp
14th|75000 gp
15th|100000 gp
16th|130000 gp
17th|170000 gp
18th|220000 gp
19th|290000 gp
20th|380000 gp[/table]

Supreme Initiative [General]
You are a twitchy guy, you know that?
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Character level 6th.
Benefit: You may act normally during a surprise round.

Monk ACFs
Ancestral Daisho
You are a master of a particular weapon, which was passed down from your ancestors to you.
Level: 1st
Modifies: Unarmed Fighter
Benefit: You gain Monastic Weapon User as a bonus feat instead of Improved Unarmed Strike; you may treat Monastic Weapon User as if it were Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of prerequisites.

Cloistered Viper
You are a danger to those around you. Mostly because you like poisoning people.
Levels: 1st, 5th, 10th, 11th, 15th
Modifies: Unlimited Activity
Replaces: Imperishable Body, Imperishable Mind, Imperishable Self
Benefits: At 1st level, you gain the Poison Use ability, and no longer risk accidentally poisoning yourself when you apply poison to a weapon.

At 5th level, you gain the ability to apply poison to a weapon as a Swift action. In addition, as a Swift action, you may suppress any resistance or immunity to poison that a creature has for 1 round; however, creatures who are immune to poison gain a +4 bonus on their save.

At 10th level, Unlimited Activity allows you to use your additional Swift action per round on either aspect of Cloistered Viper.

At 11th level, the bonus to saves against poison by creatures with immunity to poison is reduced to +2. In addition, the duration of the suppression increases to 1 minute.

At 15th level, creatures that are immune to poison no longer receive a bonus on their save. In addition, all saving throws against poison are improved to 10 + 1/2 your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier, if that would be higher than normal.

Decisive Strike
You favor a few certain blows over a crass "flurry of blows"
Levels: 1st, 9th, 18th
Replaces: Thousand Fists, Righteous Fist, Splintering Fist
Benefit: At 1st level, you may, as a Swift action, double the damage of an attack made as a Standard action that round.

At 9th level, this ability applies to the first attack you make against a given creature that round.

At 18th level, this ability applies to all attacks you make that round.

Iron Glare
People can't meet your eyes for very long.
Levels: 1st, 3rd, 7th
Replaces: Abundant Step
Benefits: Intimidate is a class skill for you; in addition, you may use your Wisdom score in place of your Charisma score when making an Intimidate check.

At 3rd level, you may use the Demoralize function of the Intimidate skill as a swift action, and may demoralize any creature within the distance given in the Abundant Step column on the table above. If you make demoralize as a Standard action, you may add half your Monk level as a competence bonus to your Intimidate check. The fear caused by your Intimidate checks does not stack with itself.

At 7th level, creatures that you demoralize are Frightened for one round and then Shaken for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you demoralize a creature twice or more in one round, they are instead Panicked for one round and Frightened for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Mind over Matter
You are capable of bearing great loads as if they were nothing more than feathers.
Levels: 2nd, 3rd
Modifies: Abundant Step
Replaces: Unorthodox Expertise
Benefits: At 2nd level, subtract your Wisdom modifier from the penalties to skills that you take due to encumbrance (double your Wisdom modifier when reducing the penalty to Swim checks). In addition, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to AC while lifting more than your heavy load.

At 3rd level, the ability to move 5' as a full-round action while lifting something that weighs more than your heavy load is considered a 5' step for the purposes of Abundant Step.

Stepping Between Raindrops
You are stealthy like woah. Seriously, duke, you are the stealthiest.
Levels: 2nd, 8th, 14th
Replaces: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Wholeness of Body
Benefits: At 2nd level, you may, as an Immediate action, become Invisible for one round. You may must wait 3 rounds before using this ability again.

At 8th level, you may grant yourself the benefits of the Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm) spell for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier as a Swift action. You must wait 3 rounds after the effect ends before using this ability again.

At 14th level, while you are under the effects of Blink, you no longer suffer a miss chance against other creatures due to the effect.

Zen Meditant
You have some freaky mind powers. You got them from meditating. Or something...
Levels:1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 20th
Replaces: School of Hard Knocks
Benefits: You gain 1 power point per level of Monk that you have, as well as the Psionic subtype. In addition, you have a manifester level equal to your Monk level.

In addition, at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, you gain a single [Psionic] feat you qualify for as a bonus feat.

Finally, whenever you take levels in a prestige class that advances manifesting, you may choose to have any level that advances manifesting to advance your Monk abilities instead. Any prestige class that advances your Monk abilities advances your manifester level and your power points per level as well.

Monks and Prestige Classes
For the purposes of prerequisites, Thousand Fists counts as Flurry of Blows for all purposes.

In addition, if a prestige class advances "Monk Abilities", levels in that class are added to your Monk level to determine whether or not you have the Thousand Fists, Abundant Step, Elegant Defense, Imperishable Body, Imperishable Mind, Imperishable Soul, Righteous Fist and Unlimited Activity class features, or any alternate class features that replace the above class features.

Finally, prestige classes that advance Monk abilities are also added to your class level when calculating the benefits granted by Unarmed Fighter and Abundant Step.

[Xeratos]

In terms of flavor:

I do not like this. This does not feel like a monk to me. I feel like this class should be named "drunk bar fighter/rock star" on the basis of such descriptions as:

"A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!
Daily Life: Wake up, wondering about what crazy things you got up to in the bar. Roll over, and notice with satisfaction that it's just one of your groupies. Then you have an awesome day.
Notables: There have been many monks, but none are so famous as Frank the Brawler (Monk 6), who came from a small town, running away from the angry mob whipped up by a Cleric who disapproved of his whoring ways.
Organizations: A Monk fits in anywhere where they want someone who can fight that still has some smarts."

I'm pretty sure the word "discipline" is repeated over and over in just about everything that ever even thought of using the word monk. I don't see that so much in your description of this class.

Mechanically speaking:
Cutting out the multiple attribute dependent portion is definitely a step in the right direction. Allowing your class to substitute wisdom for strength is a pretty solid, if generic, change. Full BAB progression is another standard and much needed upgrade for the class, as well as better damage scaling for unarmed strikes.

In terms of some of their other abilities, I'm not familiar enough with some of your terminology (what is a skill trick? How is it different from a regular skill? The difference between a swift and immediate action is what exactly?) to really judge exactly how useful some of it might be. Without comparing it to the standard 3.5 list of monk abilities, I will say that I find your variety to be rather lacking, but as far as monk abilities go in the standard rule book, they're pretty much all flavor anyway, so anything is better than nothing.

Final Opinion:
Interesting ideas, but I don't feel this accurately captures the flavor of the monk class, at least not monks as presented in 3.5. The buffs to their combat capabilities all seem to be very much in line with popular opinion as to what monks needed to be fixed (wisdom being valuable to offense, full BaB, better dice scaling).

Sorry for the harsh review, but you did say evaluate and critique honestly.

[Amechra]

Considering that one of the quintessential monk PrCs is called the "Drunken Master", and gains benefits by boozing (this is an official PrC, I kid you not)...

If you want discipline... if the Monk so wills it, he cannot become drunk. At all. His head might get a bit fuzzy, but he will shake it off. Later on, that ability to simply shake off petty inconveniences expands to mind control and death itself.

Swift/Immediate actions are in every book that isn't the Core 3; an Immediate action is a Swift action that can be taken during some other guy's turn.

Skill Tricks were introduced in Complete Scoundrel, and only appeared in that book (though there are some good homebrew ones.)

Basically, they are a 1/encounter ability you can get by spending 2 skill points on at level up, that you can have a number of equal to half your ECL.

Basically, in comparison to the monk, I dropped pretty much anything that couldn't be expressed as heroic composure/being good at punching, but the advantage here is that a level 1 monk, even if they had to flat out run to get to their opponent, can still get an attack in.

By 10th level, the Monk can essentially 1/round go "nope" to an attack and punch the guy who tried in the face. Or, by 11th level, they can use a Swift action to move 30' feet as a 5' step, make a full attack, and later that round slap aside a Disintegrate that an opposing wizard cast on them.

By 2nd level they can fight without seeing, fall from any height, and balance on things that should not bare their weight.

By 7th level, if they are assiduous in their training, they can walk on water, and see with their ears.

The only thing that disappoints me is that I can't think of any high level class features...

[General Patton]

Definitely an Abundant Step in the right direction, though I can't tell if it's enough.


The difference between a swift and immediate action is what exactly?

You can take an Immediate action outside of your turn, though it normally uses up your Swift action for your next turn. It pretty much let's you go "Objection!" and interrupt something that just started to happen while retconning your action to happen first. That's why Feather Fall is cast as an Immediate action. "You fall and take 5d6 dam-FEATHER FALL!"

Edit: I recommend this for ideas on Class Features. www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227023

[Amechra]

And with Elegant Defense, you literally get to yell "Objection" to anything short of melee attacks... until 12th level.

Do you think that I should include an ability that allows the Monk to heal themselves? By shear determination! I could just knead it into Imperishable Body, but that would kinda overload that option... Though it is a bit situational and reactive right now.

Also, if you are playing a human (or your DM allows flaws)... This is also a Swashbuckler rewrite (Look at Monastic Weapon User and Hot-Blooded Sifu.)

[Tovec]

I definitely prefer this rewrite/fix compared to many others I have seen. I have serious concerns and questions though (in red err.. blue since you already used red):



This isn't a Fix
This isn't a fix because I am sick and tired of fixes. I'm calling it a rewrite so that I can feel good about what I'm doing, rather than dirty inside.

Thank you for listening.

The Monk

Be like the man who is distributing the beating. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upwyWKzozII)

We cannot deny our origin; birds fly, flowers grow, and, my friend, I hurt people.

You know what a monk is! Do not deny it; they are the warriors who, with nothing but their own hands, stand against their foes. They are light on their feat, and strong in their nature.

They took the name "monk" after their cloistered nature, like unto the monks of the religious orders, though beyond that the two groups share no truly common traits.

MAKING A MONK
You run up to someone and punch them in the face. Hard. Often. Let them know how much you enjoy demolishing them without taking up a weapon.
Abilities: It would be best for you to look to Wisdom, as it is what most of the class is based off of; Intelligence gives you the knowledge of when not to fight, and Charisma gives you the drive to do it anyway.
I don't see why Charisma is at all useful to this monk. Dex and Con should still be valued more highly if only to boost saves and add to AC and HP.
Races: Monks appear most often among the arrogant elves and the presumptuous humans, though they are quite common among other races, as the training only takes your bare hands and common clothing.
Why is arrogance a requisite?
Alignment: A monk may be of any alignment; their training is not some presumptuous doctrine, that it would restrict itself to those of some belief!
Starting Gold: 1d4x10(25 gp)
Starting Age: As Monk.This is a concern I'll address again with other abilities.. but this is the monk class right? So.. starting age as per .. this class.. which you don't provide.

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int) (all taken individually), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Why do they need knowledge (any)?
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int
Hit Dice: d8


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Abundant Step
1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Unarmed Fighter (1 die), Thousand Fists (Rapid Strikes)|-
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Unorthodox Expertise, Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|-
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Unarmed Fighter (1 die, +1), Abundant Step|10'
4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Elegant Defense, School of Hard Knocks|10'
5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Unarmed Fighter (2 dice, +1), Iron Fists, Imperishable Body|10'
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|School of Hard Knocks, Rough and Tumble|10'
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Unarmed Fighter (2 dice, +2), Ring the Golden Bell|20'
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Improved Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|20'
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Unarmed Fighter (3 dice, +2), Righteous Fist|20'
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|School of Hard Knocks, Unlimited Activity|20'
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Unarmed Fighter (3 dice, +3), Imperishable Mind|30'
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Flawless Defense, School of Hard Knocks|30'
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|Unarmed Fighter (4 dice, +3)|30'
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|School of Hard Knocks|30'
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Unarmed Fighter (4 dice, +4), Imperishable Self|40'
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|School of Hard Knocks|40'
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Unarmed Fighter (5 dice, +4)|40'
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|School of Hard Knocks|40'
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Unarmed Fighter (5 dice, +5)|50'
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|School of Hard Knocks|50'[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Monk is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as any weapon that is a "special monk weapon"; they are not proficient in any form of armor.
Special Monk Weapons not defined

Unarmed Fighter (Ex): A monk is beautiful to watch in a fight, a testament to the monstrous nature of combat.

At 1st level, a Monk gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat, dealing damage with their Unarmed Strike as indicated on the following table. In addition, they may add their Wisdom modifier to their attack rolls in place of their Strength modifier when they make attacks with their Unarmed Strike. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Monk's unarmed strike deals an additional die of damage.
An additional die? So they increase from 1d6 to 2d6 and 3d6 and so on? Personally I prefer the old version, or more accurately some updated versions that give higher/better dice but that is just me.

Additionally, a monk that is not currently experiencing a penalty to any of their skills due to armor or encumbrance adds their Wisdom modifier to their Armor Class as a Dodge bonus. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and ever 4 levels thereafter.
Awkwardly worded.

{table=head]Size|Damage
Fine|1
Diminutive|1d2
Tiny|1d3
Small|1d4
Medium|1d6
Large|1d8
Huge|1d10
Gargantuan or Larger|1d12[/table]

Thousand Fists (Ex): A Monk strikes with a speed that would be utterly impossible to duplicate by a normal human being.
A. Why human? B. Awkwardly worded. C. What about "A monk strikes with speed that would be utterly impossible to duplicate without training?"

At 1st level, a Monk may make an attack with their Unarmed Strike as a Swift action.
I understand action economy fine. I don't know what this means. So.. in a regular round they get full attack+swift and use both forms to attack and get (at 20th) 5 attacks? Also, I'm assuming since you don't specify, that this attack is in addition to others they are capable of performing. And that it is at their full BAB.

Unorthodox Expertise (Ex): A Monk really is just good enough to hear where you stand and to stand on a hair. They really are.
Things like, "They really are" are not needed. It doesn't give more information it only makes it seem like the person writing this can barely believe it!

A Monk of at least 2nd level is constantly under the effects of Balancing Lorecall, Feather Fall, and Listening Lorecall spells as an extraordinary ability.
Feather Fall I know. I don't know Listening Lorecall or Balancing Lorecall. Could you define them and what they mean as extraordinary abilities? I would have said "always active" somewhere in there too.

Evasion (Ex): As the Monk class feature.
Read back when I commented on starting age. This is the monk, so.. as per this version we must look at this version. Instead substitute "As per Rogue", or otherwise specify you mean the original monk, or change the name of this class.

School of Hard Knocks (Ex): A Monk has learned the most basic of lessons; get good, or wash out. They have taken this lesson to heart.

At 2nd level, and every even level thereafter, a Monk may choose to either gain Skill Mastery with one of their class skills (allowing them to take 10 on that skill, even under stressful circumstances), or to gain a single Skill Trick that they qualify for; Skill Tricks gained through this class feature don't count towards the maximum number of Skill Tricks that they may have.

Abundant Step (Ex): A Monk has learned the secret of surging forward really, really quickly.

A Monk of at least 3rd level may use a Swift action as part of a Move Action to increase their speed for that move action by the amount listed on the table above, and gains a bonus to tumble checks during that movement equal to half their class level.
So, I gather this ability was meant to be used to replace the monk's bonus speed. There is a small conflict that arises though. It relies on a swift action and as such it conflicts with the previous ability. Also, as written, they can only use abundant step as a swift action and not as a move, standard, or full, and therefore are slower when using other methods to move.

Alternatively, a Monk may instead use their Swift action to increase the distance of their next 5' step to equal the distance listed on the table above.
This I actually kind of like. But it again lacks definition.I'm assuming they don't provoke attacks of opportunity. But moving 50 feet, in my mind, probably should. It does not account for difficult terrain. It does not say if they must go in a straight line, or not.

Elegant Defense (Ex): A Monk has learned how to elegantly and daintily slap aside the arrows and slings of their foes, as well as how to better defend their vitals from the blows of others.

A Monk of at least 4th level may, as an immediate action, cause a ranged attack to miss.
I think this is trying to replace deflect arrows? Look at the way that feat is written and then rewrite this.

Alternatively, they may take an immediate action to gain Light Fortification until the beginning of their next round.
Define light fortification. Consider edge uses.

Iron Fists (Ex): A Monk's fists have become far harder than stone in your long travels. Far, far harder.
Don't need "far, far harder."

A Monk of at least 5th level ignores all damage reduction and hardness when making Unarmed Attacks.
As originally conceived this comes in stages, first magic, then lawful then adamantine. I can understand wanting to consolidate it and move it earlier, but you have bypassed DR/- with this ability as written, which opens up all kinds of issues. Also, Iron is NOT the hardest thing around, so consider renaming that part - I suggest Adamantine or Diamond.

Imperishable Body (Ex): A Monk could sleep on broken glass without discomfort, and can walk through a plague-zone without dying. It is simply their nature.
What is a 'plague-zone'? Also, the name of this ability is missing something, IMHO.

A Monk of at least 5th level adds their class level to their character level when determining how many hit points they regain by resting, and may treat any time where they get at least 8 hours of sleep as 8 hours of restful sleep for the purpose of regaining hit points.
What other reasons would they need to sleep? Perhaps give them an ability to trance, similar to elves. As written it is not game breaking or anything, but it doesn't really make sense. How can simply not exerting yourself for 8 hours heal HP? It is equally silly for regular sleep-rejuvenation, sure, but that has some reasons why, and is tethered in reality and existing fiction. Also, if you want to give them sort of quick or extra HP recovery why not do it similar to lay on hands or the existing monk ability?

Below here seems like a different ability to the HP recovery parts. Consider breaking it up.
In addition, they may choose to make an additional save against a poison or a disease as an Immediate action. If they succeed, they are treated as if they had succeeded on the original save.
As written they need not make the save immediately. They get an additional save that is all. They can use it as an immediate action but there is no reason why they would do so in the case of poisons or diseases most of the time, especially since many of those take long periods to incubate before requiring a second save to actually hurt you. So, consider adding in they must do it immediately, then again if you do you run into the luck/fate problem that usually makes these kinds of abilities 1/day.

If they fail, they are treated as if they had failed whatever the next save against the effect would be; for example, if this ability was used against the primary damage of a poison, they would take the secondary damage for that poison, and would remove the poison from their system.
While, in theory, I like the concept of not wanting to waste the ability I don't think this part achieves what it is trying to. It in fact seems to work contrary to the previous part in that you suffer negative effects immediately on a failed save. Yes, with the saves as they are it is unlikely you are going to fail but if you do it is only worse for you. I would probably remove this part of the ability, though it is the only real reason why you wouldn't want to use (this part) of the ability on every failed check.

Finally, the Monk's flesh is immune to rot and decay; if they die or parts of their body are removed, those body parts are affected as if by an extraordinary Gentle Repose effect.
Walking on glass and not being bothered, okay. For some reason flesh doesn't rot when cut away? Now you've lost me. How long are they gently reposed? I don't know about you, but if someone manages to scrape some skin off my face when we fight, I don't necessarily care if that skin dies off.

Rough and Tumble (Ex): A Monk is full of pep and ready for any sort of fight that you could throw at him.

A Monk of at least 6th level adds their Wisdom modifier to any Strength or Dexterity check that they make as an Insight bonus. In addition, they may use their Wisdom modifier in place of their Strength modifier when determining how much damage their Unarmed Strikes deal.
I'm surprised this takes 6 levels.

Finally, whenever a Monk uses or is targeted by a special combat maneuver, the bonus that their opponent gains from size is halved.
Unclear what you mean here. What is cut in half? Why/How is it cut in half?

Ring the Golden Bell (Ex): A Monk can punch the air so hard that people across the room can still feel it; they are just that good.

A Monk of at least 7th level may make attacks with their Unarmed Strike as a ranged attack, with a range equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature.
Cool, airbending.
Also, specify how this works. Ranged attack using melee or ranged bonuses. Ie. Dex or Wis? Is it still considered an unarmed attack?

Improved Evasion (Ex): As the Monk class feature.

Righteous Fist (Ex): A Monk may strike others just as they are being struck! It is a glorious method of combat! As glorious as it may be, it would be cooler if you don't point it out!

A Monk of at least 9th level may use their Thousand Fists class feature as an Immediate action.
How? When? Someone attacks them, does it resolve before or after their attack resolves. Does it interrupt the attacker? A single attack and not a flurry?

Unlimited Actions (Ex): A Monk has reflexes that make a normal mortal confused as to what is happening.I know what they mean.

A Monk of at least 10th level gains an additional Immediate action each round, which may only be used to use their Abundant Step, Elegant Defense, Imperishable Body, or Thousand Fists class features.
Almost necessary given my comments earlier about abundant step.

Imperishable Mind (Ex): A Monk thinks in a proper manner, and will not be swayed by mere tricks!

A Monk of at least 11th level may use Imperishable Body to make saves against Mind-Affecting abilities, and furthermore may use Imperishable Body even if they are not consciously capable or willing to use the ability themselves, such as if they are dominated, or if they are asleep.
They can use Imperishable Mind while asleep too, right? Personally I would combine this ability with the latter half of Imperishable Body, and then specify what happens at different levels.

In addition, a Monk gains the benefit of the Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body. Define Mettle.

Flawless Defense (Ex): A Monk is not struck unless they wish to be.Uhhh... I'm all for making monks/fighters/anyone hard to hit. I think it gets very icky when you make them impossible to be hit.

A Monk of at least 12th level may apply their Elegant Defense class feature to melee attacks. Alternatively, if they choose to gain Light Fortification, they instead are immune to Critical Hits and Precision damage until the beginning of their next round.
A. Same concerns with melee version of this as the ranged.
B. What is the difference between Light fortification and immunity to crits/precision? I mean one is better but that is all I can see. Why not just up the Light to Heavy?

Imperishable Self (Ex): A Monk may not be changed unless they will it.

A Monk of at least 15th level may use Imperishable Body to apply to Death effects, effects that are treated as the Disintegrate spell, and Polymorph effects; they may use Imperishable Body for 1 round after they die, regardless of whether or not their body is intact and despite the fact that dead creatures can't take actions.
Which abilities are you foreseeing you have to overcome when you are already dead?

In addition, a Monk gains the benefits of the Improved Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body.
Perhaps this is just me. I hadn't herd of Improved Mettle. Also, please define the ability.

Finally, they are utterly immune to any effect that would remove one of their limbs without their consent; for the purposes of this class feature, the head is a limb.
Even after death? How are they simply immune? What causes their body to be immune? This invalidates all forms of crits, precision damage, called shots and even coup de grace.

Also, after 15th level there is no reason to be a monk anymore. I don't mean this because there are no class features after 15th. I mean that even if there WERE you wouldn't need them.

As far as other things to put in post-15.. take a look at the monk and see if you can rewrite those to work better. Ethereal, teleportation, death effects, timeless body, outsider/DR and spell resistance, all treasure troves if done correctly.

Also, I ignored everything after here, therefore Cut.


I love what you did in a lot of areas. A very wuxia yet oddly realistic set of abilities. I would love to see some rewrites and I'll stay tuned to future developments. My notes were for your benefit. I don't really need rebuttals per se.

[Amechra]

Before I go through and address all your critiques, the line directly after each class ability name is fluff. I do this with every single one of my classes.

In this case, it is best to imagine them being spoken rather loudly by the kind of person who would actually say "Your Happy Dragon Greets The Dawn Strike is no match for my Monkey Crane Style Stance!"

Should I change the person of the ability fluff descriptions? After all, having it be "You" rather than a "A Monk", and having the actual abilities still be in 3rd person, is a pretty distinct separation, I would think.

EDIT: Initial comments about the Imperishable line of abilities.

The intent was the whole thing where the stalwart martial artist shakes off the negative effects of someone doing stuff to them. In the case of Imperishable Self, you have a round to try again to try to retroactively make your save against the death effect (so it only looks like they killed you.)

Also, the other bit of Imperishable Self, where they can't have limbs removed... the only effect in D&D that mechanically removes limbs is the Vorpal enhancement. They are still fundamentally stab-able, and you could easily use your Coup de Grace to slit their throat and such.

You just can't, you know, choose to say that you decapitate them.

The whole idea is that, in the search of bodily perfection (or whatever they are doing), their fists aren't the only part of their bodies that you could break bricks over, and stuff that dense and tough tends not to rot.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Before I go through and address all your critiques, the line directly after each class ability name is fluff. I do this with every single one of my classes.

Should I change the person of the ability fluff descriptions? After all, having it be "You" rather than a "A Monk", and having the actual abilities still be in 3rd person, is a pretty distinct separation, I would think.

No offense intended to Tovec, but I don't think most of his critiques need to be addressed; they're either responding to flavor or to standard terms like "this bonus is halved," "special monk weapons," "as the Monk class feature," "use X as an immediate action," and so forth that have fairly well-defined meanings already and are no more obtuse than other homebrew on these boards.

As for those critiques that do need to be addressed:

Abundant Step (Ex): A Monk has learned the secret of surging forward really, really quickly.

A Monk of at least 3rd level may use a Swift action as part of a Move Action to increase their speed for that move action by the amount listed on the table above, and gains a bonus to tumble checks during that movement equal to half their class level.
So, I gather this ability was meant to be used to replace the monk's bonus speed. There is a small conflict that arises though. It relies on a swift action and as such it conflicts with the previous ability. Also, as written, they can only use abundant step as a swift action and not as a move, standard, or full, and therefore are slower when using other methods to move.

He's right that you should probably change "as part of a Move Action to increase their speed for that move action" to "as part of a Move or Run action to increase their speed for that turn;" a normal base speed increase also increases double move and run speed as a side effect, so it's a bit strange that Abundant Step doesn't do the same.


Rough and Tumble (Ex): A Monk is full of pep and ready for any sort of fight that you could throw at him.

A Monk of at least 6th level adds their Wisdom modifier to any Strength or Dexterity check that they make as an Insight bonus. In addition, they may use their Wisdom modifier in place of their Strength modifier when determining how much damage their Unarmed Strikes deal.
I'm surprised this takes 6 levels.

For comparison, the factotum gets Brains Over Brawn at 3rd level, and giving Wis to damage several levels after Wis to attack means you can't focus solely on Wis in character creation. I would allow the monk to use Wis instead of Str/Dex for checks as part of Unorthodox Expertise and Wis instead of Str for damage as part of Unarmed Fighter, so it's a bit of a smoother progression and relieves MAD at low levels.


Ring the Golden Bell (Ex): A Monk can punch the air so hard that people across the room can still feel it; they are just that good.

A Monk of at least 7th level may make attacks with their Unarmed Strike as a ranged attack, with a range equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature.
Cool, airbending.
Also, specify how this works. Ranged attack using melee or ranged bonuses. Ie. Dex or Wis? Is it still considered an unarmed attack?

If the intention here is to let them make a melee attack at range, like the Bloodstorm Blade can, this should be phrased something like "A Monk of at least 7th level may make melee attacks with their Unarmed Strike at range, up to a maximum distance equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature" to clarify that it is still treated as a melee attack for all intents and purposes.

If the intention is to make it an actual ranged attack, with Dex instead of Str and range increments and everything, this should be phrased something like "A Monk of at least 7th level may make attacks with their Unarmed Strike as a ranged attack. This is treated as a ranged attack in all respects, and has a range increment equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature."


Flawless Defense (Ex): A Monk is not struck unless they wish to be.

A Monk of at least 12th level may apply their Elegant Defense class feature to melee attacks. Alternatively, if they choose to gain Light Fortification, they instead are immune to Critical Hits and Precision damage until the beginning of their next round.
What is the difference between Light fortification and immunity to crits/precision? I mean one is better but that is all I can see. Why not just up the Light to Heavy?

He's right, just upgrading from light to heavy fortification would have the same effect and is more elegant.


As far as other things to put in post-15.. take a look at the monk and see if you can rewrite those to work better. Ethereal, teleportation, death effects, timeless body, outsider/DR and spell resistance, all treasure troves if done correctly.

I'd have to agree here; you haven't covered teleportation, in-combat healing, etherealness, or Quivering Palm among the traditional monk abilities, and if you can't think of anything else for the last few levels you have plenty of room to add them.

My suggestions:
At 14th level, add "Wholeness of Body (Ex): You just can't keep a monk down. The monk gains DR 5/chaotic and, once per combat, may heal hit points equal to his Wis mod times 1/2 his class level as a swift action." The DR+healing fits in as an upgrade to Imperishable Body, and being in-combat only prevents spamming.
At 16th level, add "Empty Step (Ex): And you thought the monk was fast before! When using his Abundant Step feature, the monk may choose to teleport instead of moving as long as he has line of sight and line of effectto his destination." The LoS/LoE restrictions make it closer to a flash step than a magical teleport, and it's just generally useful.
At 18th level, add "Quivering Fist (Ex): Righteous Fist, now with 200% more righteousness! If the monk successfully strikes a single opponent twice in one round, as a swift action he may force his target to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Wis) or either die or become paralyzed for 1d4 minutes, at his option." (Or you can call it Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, up to you. :smallwink:)
At 20th level, add "Perfect Self (Ex): The monk is treated as an outsider whenever it would be beneficial to do so. Additionally, he may become ethereal at will, shifting back and forth between the Material and Ethereal Planes with a swift action each way."

[Amechra]

Alright, thanks for looking at the wording; I was a bit sleep deprived when I wrote this (it's when I write my "best" homebrew.)

Ring the Golden Bell is supposed to let you just make a ranged attack (as stated, explicitly, in the ability itself) out to a range of your Abundant Step distance (again, as stated explicitly in the ability itself.)

Though I might make it have a range increment...

For your suggested abilities, I'm trying to avoid having any class feature that has uses a limited number of times per day (the 4 key active class features of the class are designed to be in conflict with each-other action-wise, as a balancing point, and so that it has a more tactical feel.)

So, I'll make the changes to the abilities (you have better wording, and Heavy Fortification was what I was looking for (the original enhancement has Heavy Fortification as 75%, iirc, that's why I was confused.))

But I'll probably throw Wholeness of Body as the ability to regain an amount of HP equal to your Wisdom modifier plus half your class level as a swift action, which you may use your additional swift action from Unlimited Activity with.

Empty Step will just add to Abundant Step (it's the logical next "step", as it were.)

Quivering Fist... I can't think of a way to add it in that would fit in with the action-economy shenanigans I'm thinking of. I'll have to "meditate" on it.

As for Perfect Self... I don't know, this version of the Monk doesn't have a logical step to Outsider status.

The reason why I'm approaching this as a rewrite and not a fix (beyond the reason given in the OP), is the fact that I'm not tied to any of the other Monk's abilities; I pull of the combat style in a different (and, in my opinion, far more elegant) manner.

I do have to ask, what is your over-all opinion?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Ring the Golden Bell is supposed to let you just make a ranged attack (as stated, explicitly, in the ability itself) out to a range of your Abundant Step distance (again, as stated explicitly in the ability itself.)

I assumed as much, but because nonmagical ranged attacks use range increments instead of a flat range and the actual Ring the Golden Bell feat has different wording that implies it's not a normal ranged attack ("you may inflict unarmed strike damage with a successful ranged attack" and "This attack can deliver any effect your unarmed strike can normally deliver") I thought it best to clarify.


But I'll probably throw Wholeness of Body as the ability to regain an amount of HP equal to your Wisdom modifier plus half your class level as a swift action, which you may use your additional swift action from Unlimited Activity with.

That works. I know some people don't like at-will healing so I suggested a per-combat use, but Wis + level/2 isn't problematic at all.


Quivering Fist... I can't think of a way to add it in that would fit in with the action-economy shenanigans I'm thinking of. I'll have to "meditate" on it.

It requires a swift action like the other abilities, so you still have to make the choice between more attacks, more speed, or better defense; if someone lets this monk get up close to them (doesn't need Abundant Step) and didn't successfully attack them last round (doesn't need Elegant Defense or Imperishable Body), they're already in for a world of hurt, it's just a question of whether the monk thinks he can already hit them twice (Quivering Fist) or wants another chance to hit (Thousand Fists). But of course it's all up to you.


The reason why I'm approaching this as a rewrite and not a fix (beyond the reason given in the OP), is the fact that I'm not tied to any of the other Monk's abilities; I pull of the combat style in a different (and, in my opinion, far more elegant) manner.

Granted; they were just suggestions of how to adept the standard monk high-level abilities if you can't think of anything else.


I do have to ask, what is your over-all opinion?

Aside from a few small wording tweaks as mentioned, I really like it. It manages to do everything the core monk does more elegantly, and does what the monk is supposed to do (kill low-/mid-op casters, be a skirmisher, be hard to kill) much more effectively.

The only real issue is the lack of customizability within the class, but I figure keeping things simple is a benefit and the monk already does what it needs to do so it's not a problem you need to worry about.

[Amechra]

Alright, I fixed some things up (though I did not move Wis to damage and to certain checks down; the fact that they can't be entirely Wisdom SAD is intentional.)

Also, a 20th level Monk may now run on spiderwebs upside down, effortlessly say nope to single target effects (can't target someone with Total Cover, you know), can heal themselves a smidge, and if you are foolish enough to let them stand next to you be within a single movement distance, they can deal 10 Con damage to you a round. Ouch.

I was actually specifically avoiding having a unique customization system for this class, mainly because I can't be bothered, and also because it makes this thing dead simple. The only real choices you have when building your monk are what Skill Tricks you want. Also, if you want to be distinct from another Monk, you can multiclass; that's what that option is for.

I also just noticed how nicely this class works with E6; you get all your bread and butter choices by level 6, which is also the point right before you get your first really unbelievable class feature (punching people on the other side of the room.)

Also, a dip of 2 levels of Monk is rather nice (it's got an excellent chassis, as well as nice class features), but it doesn't personally look like it's something that every melee character ever will take.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Also, a 20th level Monk may now run on spiderwebs upside down, effortlessly say nope to single target effects (can't target someone with Total Cover, you know), can heal themselves a smidge, and if you are foolish enough to let them stand next to you be within a single movement distance, they can deal 10 Con damage to you a round. Ouch.

Excellent job tying the new features into the existing ones; I like it.

[Amechra]

Thanks.

Does anyone else have any commentary? Or should I call this one done?

[nonsi]

Ok, I don't have a lot of spare time right now, so I'll make it short.


Too many dice rolls on a regular basis slow down the game.

Monks need teleportation. It's one of the few good tricks the core class offers.

I like Iron Fists. Clean & simple.

The one thing that's apparently absent is a decent amount of features that bring new options to the gaming table.

I don't like "Unarmed Fighter" appearing on the table 10 times for the same reason I don't like SA appearing 10 times on the Rogue's table. It's the same friggin feature and it takes the place of real features.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Too many dice rolls on a regular basis slow down the game.

It's a good thing this monk doesn't do that, then. :smallwink: Even with two Thousand Fists attacks per round, it's making fewer attacks (and rolling fewer damage dice) than a TWF rogue of comparable level.

[Amechra]

I was trying to stay away from the overtly supernatural stuff, kind of as a challenge to myself.

I'll wait until you have more time before I start glaring at bits of the class to get them back in submission.

However, on the subject of new options... I'd like you to think of how much a swift action attack brings to the table; it lets you actually move and still get off your attacks that are most likely to hit. It gets better when you have immediate action attacks, since those can be used for a bunch of different uses.

Abundant Step I agree brings little to the table.

Elegant Defense is a pretty decent defensive buff that helps you frontline even though you have a d8 for HD; at later levels, it essentially becomes a "soft" counter to a great deal of things. After all, they are deflecting rays by 4th level, and by 12th level, a Monk on the defensive can block most direct assaults that don't just target them.

Imperishable Body is the standard "recovery" ability that the Monk gets; I probably should let them immediately stabilize with it at earlier levels. It is meant as an "after the fact" defense.

Most of the strategy in the class comes from the interplay of the 4 swift action features.

Unlike a lot of homebrew on these boards, I'm not assuming that the Monk isn't going to be grabbing treasure; everyone's a Christmas tree in D&D. Though I think it should be noted that Necklaces of Natural Attacks need to be cheaper...

Honestly, they don't need to have debuffing attacks and such as part of the core class; I'm still writing feats for the class, and I really think that base classes should be reserved for your bread and butter, when you get down to it.

[kestrel404]

Hey, a monk rewrite. Let's see.

Chasis:
Full BAB, all good saves, cleric HP, 4+int skills w/ a good skill list, and Monk proficiencies. So far, we've traded 2 skill points for full bab, though I think it's fair considdering monks should have always had full bab to begin with.

Unarmed Fighter (Ex): Two changes here - you've tied the monk's wisdom-to-AC to an armor check penalty - a fair move, since not having said penalty is a reasonable approximation of not being encumbered by armor. I might even go so far as to state that such a penalty be straight out subtracted from the bonus - rather than an all-or-nothing loss. And as monks advance, they gain extra damage dice. Mildly abuseable since you get extra attacks, but not unreasonable given the progression and compared to other classes.

Thousand Fists (Ex): It's a good thing getting extra swift actions is so hard, or else this would be very abuseable. As it is, an extra attack per round (becuase if you're a monk of this flavor, you're going to be saving that swift action for just this) is pretty hefty, especially since it basically stacks with everything - including two-weapon fighting, haste, natural attacks, etc. Powerful, and perhaps too much so at first level, as it makes one level dips in this class awesome for everybody (just this, full BAB and all good saves would be enough for any melee fighter in existence). Balanced by it having to be a unarmed strike. I'd strongly recommend moving this to 2nd level. Swap it with School of Hard Knocks.

Unorthodox Expertise (Ex): Balancing Lorecall, Feather Fall, and Listening Lorecall - two 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell, as constant effects. And the 2nd level spells advance as you level. This is a bit too much, especially for 2nd level. Instead, just make it Feather Fall. Move Balancing Lorecall up to 4th level and change Listening Lorecall into straight up Blindsense 30' at 6th level and it's balanced.

Evasion (Ex): No problems.

School of Hard Knocks (Ex): Nice. Given the decrease in skill points, this keeps the monk as a relative skill-monkey-esque class. As previously suggested, you might move this down to 1st level in exchange for Thousand Fists not be an automatic 1-level-dip.

Abundant Step (Ex): The first part is great. Changing the distance you can move with your 5' step is completely broken for one reason: Skirmish. Considdering that there are Monk/Scout cross-class feats that continue to improve skirmish with monk levels (I don't feel like re-reading to see if it'll still work, but any GM that allows homebrew would easily accept this feat mod), I'm going to call this a bad idea. This basically says: Dip Scout & spend a feat to allow you to trade 1 attack for +nd6 on your iterative attack. Hmm...come to that, it's not all that broken after all.

Elegant Defense (Ex): So they can stop magic missiles (at least one), scorching rays, disintegrates, beholder eyebeams.... You may want to specify that they can stop missile weapons and thrown weapons instead of 'ranged attacks'.

Iron Fists (Ex): Umm, no. How about they gain the Versatile enhancement on their fists? This allows them to gain a single property for the purposes of overcoming DR. Straight up saying that they can bypass DR (like, say, DR/Epic) is broken.

Imperishable Body (Ex): Extra natural healing is fine, automatic gentle repose is kind of icky but fine, being able to make unlimited saves against poison/disease is not fine. You may want to re-word this.

Rough and Tumble (Ex): Sound fair.

Ring the Golden Bell (Ex): Make it a standard action, otherwise this has simply given the monk reach equal to their abundant step, which is patently ridiculous.

Improved Evasion (Ex): Fine

Righteous Fist (Ex): Immediate actions are a lot easier to gain than swift actions, and this is in no way better than an AoO, except you can basically do it without being provoked. Trash this completely.

Unlimited Actions (Ex): Make it a swift action. Those are harder to come by.

Imperishable Mind (Ex): Fix imperishable body and this is fine.

Flawless Defense (Ex): This is not quite so bad - at least melee attacks is more defined in D&D than 'ranged attacks'. But you may want to specify that it doesn't work against touch attacks.

Wholeness of Body (Ex): DR X/- of half class level + wis mod? In exchange for an immediate action (which, I continue to note, you can get more of). That's a bit too much, especially since this is in addition to another effect. Make it just wis mod. And an equal amount of fast healing to boot (in exchange for 1 attack, basically) - put a uses/day limit on that healing ability, or give them a limited healing pool, or reduce the healing to 1/4 Class Level (no wis mod) or something.

Imperishable Self (Ex): Fix imperishable body and this is fine. Also, defining the head as a limb: LOL.

Empty Step (Ex): As a 16th level ability, this is not unreasonable.

Splintering Fist (Ex): Make it 1d6 con damage, and looks good. Straight out 5 con damage/round is over the top even at this level. Since you can do it at least 2x/round, at-will, you need to scale back or the monk is going to kill virtually anything you throw at them in 4 rounds or less, by themselves (I've never seen a non-epic monster with more than 40 con).

Perfection of Form (Ex): As a capstone, this is pretty good. Perhaps a bit over the top (wings of cover at will!) but given limited actions on the monk's part, not completely unreasonable.


Overall looks very nice. My only real concern is: Kill Righteous Fist. Kill it with fire. Perhaps replace it with blindsight or the ability to ignore 5% miss chance per level, but immediate actions are too easy to optimize for.

Hope that helps.

[Amechra]

I will respond class feature by class feature:

Thousand Fists: I'm going to leave this at 1st level, because moving it a single level back would not impede dipping in the least, and it is your key low level trick.

I could equally say that everyone should go Barbarian, since you can easily, with one feat, get an additional attack, +6 to Strength, and +8 to Constitution, as well as Pounce, for a single level.

The only ways to generate more Swift actions that I can think of off the top of my head are a few obscure 1/day magic items, and Ruby Knight Windicator, which has better things than single melee attacks to be doing with its swift actions (like, I don't know, casting any one of their many spells?)

Unorthodox Expertise: Yes, it seems powerful, however...

Note that, at that level, you get a small boost to your senses, and you can balance on a few things extra things for a little while. You don't get large bonuses to those skills, so you would have to optimize for it yourself.

The balance of mundane class features to spell levels is not equivalent; I can think of a few higher level spells that would make decent lower level continual effects on a mundane character.

Abundant Step: I see you've noticed the fact that the class was designed to have action interference between its class features; and I would hardly say that Scouts being able to full-attack with skirmish damage is broken; it is trivial to get a 10' step with just a skill check.

Elegant Defense: They can block a single ranged attack. A ranged attack is just as well defined as a melee attack. It requires that the effect has an attack roll, and each attack roll is considered a different attack by definition.

So, no, you could not block magic missiles. You could block a disintegrate, though. Which is intended. Because the class feature is intended to be useful throughout your career.

Iron Fists Um, yes? ToB users were bypassing DR/Epic 2 levels ago, with the swiss-army jackhammer called Mountain Hammer. It is hardly inappropriate at the level.

Imperishable Body: I probably should put a limit on uses, shouldn't I? I'm thinking only up to, say, 3 rounds after the effect is applied to you. Sound fair?

Ring the Golden Bell: You make a ranged attack. With your Unarmed Strike. With a range increment equal to your Abundant Step distance. There are many things you can't do with a ranged attack that you can with a melee attack.

Flawless Defense: Is entirely intended to work against touch attacks. Just like Elegant Defense is intended to work against rays.

Because, quite frankly, magic getting a free ride is getting old. I'd pull out the old "mundane counterspell" picture, but I've forgotten the link.

You and Immediate Actions: I'm sorry, but where are you getting your immediate actions from? I'm not aware of any effects that generate extra immediate actions.

So where are you getting yours? This is a legitimate question; I am curious how you are getting more of an action that, as far as I can tell, you can only have one of (outside of possibly divine ranks. And, no, Stance of Alacrity does not work that way.)

Otherwise, I'd be hearing a lot more about double - Celerities.

Wholeness of Body: I find it kind of funny that you think that ~14 HP regained or DR 14/- are overpowered at levels where pretty much everything has started breaking the 100s in damage.

Also, there has been unlimited out of combat healing since level... 7 at the latest, if your party has a Binder, or 1st if someone is playing a Dread Necromancer and every one takes Tomb Tainted Soul.

Splintering Fist: This is 18th level; at this point, most enemies that you are fighting are either immune to the trick or would be very hard to land your fist on. So a sure bet is a good way to go. This is the point where you get shenanigans like getting two full attacks as a full-round action, summoning forth god-beings, and altering the laws of physics on a whim; 5 Con damage is not unreasonable.

[kestrel404]

Thousand Fists: I'm going to leave this at 1st level, because moving it a single level back would not impede dipping in the least, and it is your key low level trick.

I could equally say that everyone should go Barbarian, since you can easily, with one feat, get an additional attack, +6 to Strength, and +8 to Constitution, as well as Pounce, for a single level.

The only ways to generate more Swift actions that I can think of off the top of my head are a few obscure 1/day magic items, and Ruby Knight Windicator, which has better things than single melee attacks to be doing with its swift actions (like, I don't know, casting any one of their many spells?)

I like for things to be balanced against existing material when possible. Everyone knows that a 1-level dip in barbarian with several ACFs is pure cheese. Designing a homebrew class to be equivalent to that just means no GM ever lets their players use it, unless it's specifically a cheese game.

I'll grant that this class is probably only tier 4 as written, and there's nothing wrong with this class feature - it's just something that I think shouldn't be available to anyone from a 1-level dip. At least the Monk equivalent specifies you can't use armor while using it, meaning that the majority of builds ignore flurry of blows as basically useless. Thousand Fists, however, is basically Snap Kick as a swift action, at the cost of a (honestly loaded with goodies already) 1-level dip instead of a feat. If you're not making a spellcaster, yes, dipping this class would be a no-brainer.

Also, there's a huge difference between 1-level dips and 2-level dips. With a 1-level dip, you can be a rogue who took that level of monk and is basically missing out on nothing important, or a wizard who's doing the unarmed-gish thing and getting spells at the same time as a sorceror. The 2-level dip means that if you're not devoting a good portion of your build towards what you've side-tracked to get, then you're a spell level or a d6 of damage or whatever else behind for what's at best a side benefit.

As for it being your 'key low level trick'...2nd level is still low level. Really, unarmed combat should be your 'key low-level trick'.

The reason I make a big deal out of this is because Thousand fists basically means: After a full attack, hit one more time, always. Charge and hit twice without pounce. Double move and still take a swing. Make the Spring Attack feat even MORE worthless, because you can do that but better. All of this for 1 level in a class that gives 3 good saves with no loss of BAB, grants a bonus feat on the side, and adds a stat to AC while wearing light armor. I considder overloading 1st level like this to be a major sin of many homebrewers. But hey, that's just my opinion.


Unorthodox Expertise: Yes, it seems powerful, however...

Note that, at that level, you get a small boost to your senses, and you can balance on a few things extra things for a little while. You don't get large bonuses to those skills, so you would have to optimize for it yourself.

The balance of mundane class features to spell levels is not equivalent; I can think of a few higher level spells that would make decent lower level continual effects on a mundane character.

You get it at 2nd level. At 2nd level you have skills with 5 ranks. Which means when you get it, you immediately get blindsense 30' and a climb speed with a random/limited duration but which can be used at will.

Then, at 7th level, you gain blindsight and water walking. And these additional abilities are completely independent of gaining more class levels in your monk class.

One or the other of thost would be reasonable as a 2nd level class feature. But you're giving both, plus unlimited feather fall. I'm just saying, break it up and space out the abilities more. Otherwise, your class is a better 2-level-dip monk.


Abundant Step: I see you've noticed the fact that the class was designed to have action interference between its class features; and I would hardly say that Scouts being able to full-attack with skirmish damage is broken; it is trivial to get a 10' step with just a skill check.

I don't know that trick. Is there a skill trick that give you a 10' step?

And I'm not disagreeing that full attacking with skirmish is far from broken. Actually, I was more pointing out something that might have been an unintended consequence. If I'd been worrying about the power of this ability, I'd have been pointing out that it's basically a lesser version of pounce - you can use a swift action in the same round as a full attack, thereby moving your abundant step to get reach and then your iterative attacks to beat on them.

I'm curious, though. Would this swift movement provoke AoOs?


Elegant Defense: They can block a single ranged attack. A ranged attack is just as well defined as a melee attack. It requires that the effect has an attack roll, and each attack roll is considered a different attack by definition.

So, no, you could not block magic missiles. You could block a disintegrate, though. Which is intended. Because the class feature is intended to be useful throughout your career.

I cannot think of any melee attacks that do not require an attack roll of some kind. I can think of severl ranged attacks, including breath weapons and area affect spells, which do not. Are you really saying that a fireball is not a ranged attack? I just wanted a clarification on wording here, not for you to nerf the power. Also, if you're going to make the monk that strong against spellcasting and other abilities that are generally considdered 'dodge proof', then I suggest you change your fluff a bit to reflect it.


Iron Fists Um, yes? ToB users were bypassing DR/Epic 2 levels ago, with the swiss-army jackhammer called Mountain Hammer. It is hardly inappropriate at the level.

Ugh, I keep forgetting about that. However, the difference here is that you're making this an inherent ability for the monk, rather than something that's activated or used up. Mountain hammer is a standard action that cannot be used on every attack (every other attack if you're a warblade, granted). This is simply: I bypass this whole set of rules that reduce my damage, and ignore them from level 5 onwards.


Imperishable Body: I probably should put a limit on uses, shouldn't I? I'm thinking only up to, say, 3 rounds after the effect is applied to you. Sound fair?

I was thinking more along the lines of a single re-roll for each affect. That's perfectly in line with existing mechanics. Anything more than that and you might as well grant immunities. With all-good saves, con, wis & dex as power stats and multiple re-rolls, the numbers work out that any of these affects that would stick to you EVER would wipe out the rest of your party in one shot. Also, remembering to roll those additional saves is just annoying if you have to remember to do it again after your next turn.


Ring the Golden Bell: You make a ranged attack. With your Unarmed Strike. With a range increment equal to your Abundant Step distance. There are many things you can't do with a ranged attack that you can with a melee attack.

Again, the difference here is that it's an ability that you give without tradeoff. You no longer have to use your swift action to pounce at your abundant step range. You can simply beat on anything within 30'+ of you with a full attack + extras from your swift action(s). Once you get to this point, you're not a melee fighter anymore - you're a wizard who casts 'fist' repeatedly at his enemies. It just doesn't feel like a monk anymore.


Flawless Defense: Is entirely intended to work against touch attacks. Just like Elegant Defense is intended to work against rays.

Because, quite frankly, magic getting a free ride is getting old. I'd pull out the old "mundane counterspell" picture, but I've forgotten the link.

Again, if this is as intended, then fine. But have the fluff be more spectacular.


You and Immediate Actions: I'm sorry, but where are you getting your immediate actions from? I'm not aware of any effects that generate extra immediate actions.

So where are you getting yours? This is a legitimate question; I am curious how you are getting more of an action that, as far as I can tell, you can only have one of (outside of possibly divine ranks. And, no, Stance of Alacrity does not work that way.)

Otherwise, I'd be hearing a lot more about double - Celerities.

I was apparently confusing immediate actions with AoOs. I went back and checked, and you can still get ridiculous numbers of AoOs without having more than one immediate action. So ignore those comments. However, I'll point out that VERY FEW things offer the ability to affect things outside of your turn. There's good reason for this - doing so is annoying to everyone else at the table. At least when you do so constantly. Being able to do it once in a while is a good way to show off how awesome you are. Maybe a per-day limit?


Wholeness of Body: I find it kind of funny that you think that ~14 HP regained or DR 14/- are overpowered at levels where pretty much everything has started breaking the 100s in damage.

Also, there has been unlimited out of combat healing since level... 7 at the latest, if your party has a Binder, or 1st if someone is playing a Dread Necromancer and every one takes Tomb Tainted Soul.

And I find it amusing that you think ~30HP/round regen requiring you to expend your TWO swift actions (thereby still not preventing you from from full-attacking) is comparable to 1d6+7 requiring your caster to expend their standard action while at touch range to the melee attacker. Alternately, being 20th level and trading your extra swift action for DR 20/- whenever you feel like it. Seriously. Take a look at the numbers again.


Splintering Fist: This is 18th level; at this point, most enemies that you are fighting are either immune to the trick or would be very hard to land your fist on. So a sure bet is a good way to go. This is the point where you get shenanigans like getting two full attacks as a full-round action, summoning forth god-beings, and altering the laws of physics on a whim; 5 Con damage is not unreasonable.

You've got a point. It is on par with 9th level maneuvers. The difference, once again, is that those 9th level maneuvers are expendable resources - you need to devote effort into using them each time, you cannot use them twice in the same round, every round, forever.

I'm not trying to tear appart this class. I just want you to considder all of the consequences of what you've got. With all the stuff this monk does, it's still only tier 4, but it's a ridiculously strong tier 4, beyond the best optimization efforts of a hellfire warlock with legacy weapon cheese. A few simple tweaks, and it can be brought in line with the other tier 4 base classes (which are all quite playable and fun, even if I prefer tier 3).

Hope that helps.

[Amechra]

1. ... I apparently only ever play "cheese" games then, since I've never been in a game where you can't take a dip in Barbarian.

I do find merit in your worries about the ultra constant +attack that you get. I'll probably drop the BAB by a step to compensate; I was also planning on dropping it to 2 good saves, due to Imperishable Body and company.

2. I'm probably going to overhaul Unorthodox Expertise, mainly because the spells that it references are splatbook spells, but also because I'd forgotten how large the 5 rank benefits are.

3. As for 10' movement... Person Man says it better in his little guides here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898866&postcount=21) And it was an intended consequence; you are supposed to be movin' and skirmishin'.

Also, 5' steps don't provoke unless someone has an ability that make them provoke. I just noticed that I need to tweak that ability since, as written, you can spend a swift action now, and then take a 50' 5' step in an hour if you want to.

4. By game rules, anything that doesn't incorporate an attack roll isn't an attack. This guy could be blown up by a fireball just as easily as anyone else with a good reflex save.

5. I'll probably adjust Iron Fists; I personally use these rules (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4809.15) (scroll to the last post) for DR and Energy Resistance, so...

6. I'll probably end up limiting Imperishable Body to one extra save, with another extra one once you hit Imperishable Self.

7. I might modify Ring the Golden Bell to be once a round. I do find the image of just screaming "I CAST FIST" (http://i.imgur.com/akxj7.jpg) every time you use it, though.

8. As for fluff... you make your own fluff. You know what a perfectly good representation of how you negate their attack? Stepping out of the way.

9. You get an immediate action attack for two reasons; it either lets you disrupt a caster nearby who's casting defensively, or punch someone who just attacked you in the face. It doesn't disrupt actions that wouldn't already get disrupted by you getting hit.

Really, I don't think people will mind; in most games I'm in, unless someone specifically is trying to steal the spotlight, the party supports their friends being the big damn hero. I'd change it if it were some big ultra super move, but it's just a normal attack, so it shouldn't be any worse than if you, say, are playing an AoO build.

10. As to your Wholeness of Body points... remember that the rounds where you are using both of your swift/immediate actions on healing are rounds where you aren't using them to have better movement or extra attacks. This becomes even more the case if I drop their BAB to 3/4ths level.

I mean, you get the choice between either being faster in getting out of the place that is hurting you, or attacking the problem, and you are instead standing there where you can continue to get hit, and heal less than 40 HP (which they are undoubtedly dealing more than at those levels.) It is a trade-off which, at that point in the least, you are probably only going to be doing when you are either at the point of dying, or if you are outside of battle, in which case the amount of HP that you regain doesn't matter, since any amount of unlimited out of combat healing will pretty much fill you back up in a few minutes.

11. To deal that 10 Con damage, you have to make, and more importantly, hit with three attacks. This is after you've been in this class for 18 levels and, if you notice, this class doesn't give bonuses to your attack rolls.

Then factoring in the facts of what immunities high level monsters get; most are either immune to ability damage, or would be able to take the 10 Con damage and then retaliate in a way that would flatten the monk.

Remember that most high level fights only last for around 3 round on average; that 5 Con damage was intended to be one of those "if I haven't killed you by the end of 3 rounds, something is very wrong."

I might drop it by a bit (probably to 4 Con damage), if only because, looking back, 10 Con damage is a bit much.

12. No worries about tearing it to pieces; criticism is the only way that it can be made into a good class.

I do disagree with your "more powerful than an optimized Hellfire Warlock"; that particular combination can be throwing out 24d6 + 2 negative levels per attack, and could full attack for an average 252 damage and 6 negative levels as a full attack, which are made as touch attacks and which can be easily increased by another 15d6 damage on that full attack. The negative levels are also another 30 damage, along with -6 to pretty much everything.

If you put this Monk in a "most dangerous full-attacker" competition with the Hellfire Warlock, the Warlock is going to beat them to a pulp, figuratively.

[kestrel404]

1. ... I apparently only ever play "cheese" games then, since I've never been in a game where you can't take a dip in Barbarian.


I could equally say that everyone should go Barbarian, since you can easily, with one feat, get an additional attack, +6 to Strength, and +8 to Constitution, as well as Pounce, for a single level.

That's not just a level of Barbarian. That's a level of barbarian with at least 2 ACFs and a broken feat. Big differece in cheese levels. If you've never played with a GM who'd say no to that character, I'd love to meet some of your GMs.


I do find merit in your worries about the ultra constant +attack that you get. I'll probably drop the BAB by a step to compensate; I was also planning on dropping it to 2 good saves, due to Imperishable Body and company.[QUOTE]
Fair.

[QUOTE]Also, 5' steps don't provoke unless someone has an ability that make them provoke. I just noticed that I need to tweak that ability since, as written, you can spend a swift action now, and then take a 50' 5' step in an hour if you want to.
I figured. You may want to add some reminder text to that effect, as a GM I'd have interpreted it the other way.


4. By game rules, anything that doesn't incorporate an attack roll isn't an attack. This guy could be blown up by a fireball just as easily as anyone else with a good reflex save.
Specify that they need to make an attack roll in the class feature. This is not an obvious or well understood rule, and I do not automatically assume that Fireball is not an attack - it breaks invisibility, therefore it is an attack. There are actually multiple perfectly valid definitions of 'attack' in D&D depending on what you're talking about. I'm not asking for a change, just a clarification in the text.


5. I'll probably adjust Iron Fists; I personally use these rules (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4809.15) (scroll to the last post) for DR and Energy Resistance, so...
Yeah, completely different system. By standard, while DR is easy to bypass if you've got the right thing on hand, it's not something you should be outright ignoring/throwing away. Some monsters are only threats because of their DR 10/evil,silver & resistence lots to every concievable energy type and/or SR.


6. I'll probably end up limiting Imperishable Body to one extra save, with another extra one once you hit Imperishable Self.
Make it so you can get that extra re-roll (your third) when you get your additional swift action, and you must take it immediately. Or just state that the re-rolls must be taken before your next turn.


7. I might modify Ring the Golden Bell to be once a round. I do find the image of just screaming "I CAST FIST" (http://i.imgur.com/akxj7.jpg) every time you use it, though.

Muscle Wizard. Always funny. But Ranged!Unarmed-Monk just doesn't feel like monk, and without a limiter this makes his whole mobility schtic completely pointless.


9. You get an immediate action attack for two reasons; it either lets you disrupt a caster nearby who's casting defensively, or punch someone who just attacked you in the face. It doesn't disrupt actions that wouldn't already get disrupted by you getting hit.

Really, I don't think people will mind; in most games I'm in, unless someone specifically is trying to steal the spotlight, the party supports their friends being the big damn hero. I'd change it if it were some big ultra super move, but it's just a normal attack, so it shouldn't be any worse than if you, say, are playing an AoO build.
Eh, as long as you're thinking about it.


10. As to your Wholeness of Body points... remember that the rounds where you are using both of your swift/immediate actions on healing are rounds where you aren't using them to have better movement or extra attacks. This becomes even more the case if I drop their BAB to 3/4ths level.

I mean, you get the choice between either being faster in getting out of the place that is hurting you, or attacking the problem, and you are instead standing there where you can continue to get hit, and heal less than 40 HP (which they are undoubtedly dealing more than at those levels.) It is a trade-off which, at that point in the least, you are probably only going to be doing when you are either at the point of dying, or if you are outside of battle, in which case the amount of HP that you regain doesn't matter, since any amount of unlimited out of combat healing will pretty much fill you back up in a few minutes.
This is dependent on a few other things in the class. Let's say that you leave 'Ring the Bell' and this as-is. You no longer need to move. You no longer need your swift actions to provide mobility. Suddenly, you're a ranged tank who either hits the enemy more often, or else shrugs off any damage he chooses to deal - because no, you're NOT getting hit for 40+ damage a round by one guy who's also being attacked by the rest of your party. Either there's one bad-guy who's hitting you for a ridiculous amount of damage per attack (and he's getting chewed to pieces by your party members while he's wasting his attacks on your super-regenerative behind), or there's a hoard of little/medium guys who are each dealing piddling damage (because you've given yourself DR 15/- and they can each hit you for at most 5 damage). If there is a big guy AND little guys AND they're all beating on just you? Then congratulations, you're more useful in this encounter than the wizard. And you've also got DR 15/- and the big guy misses you at least once/round as you immediate-action-dodge him (especially if he's a spellcaster), so you can survive it for a good long while.

Just tone down the numbers a bit. Barbarians are supposed to be nigh-unkillable slaughter-machines, and their DR caps out at 7 (which is far lower than where yours starts). Alternately, make this a serious choice by toning down 'Ring the Bell' & Elegant defence.


11. To deal that 10 Con damage, you have to make, and more importantly, hit with three attacks. This is after you've been in this class for 18 levels and, if you notice, this class doesn't give bonuses to your attack rolls.

Then factoring in the facts of what immunities high level monsters get; most are either immune to ability damage, or would be able to take the 10 Con damage and then retaliate in a way that would flatten the monk.

Remember that most high level fights only last for around 3 round on average; that 5 Con damage was intended to be one of those "if I haven't killed you by the end of 3 rounds, something is very wrong."

I might drop it by a bit (probably to 4 Con damage), if only because, looking back, 10 Con damage is a bit much.

And 4 damage twice is 8 - whereas 2d6 is ~7. Which was my original suggestion. Also, I like the randomness of rolling dice - If I know in advance I'm going to be doing 4 con damage, that's nice. Having the ability to deal 1-6? A bit more fun for me.


12. No worries about tearing it to pieces; criticism is the only way that it can be made into a good class.

I do disagree with your "more powerful than an optimized Hellfire Warlock"; that particular combination can be throwing out 24d6 + 2 negative levels per attack, and could full attack for an average 252 damage and 6 negative levels as a full attack, which are made as touch attacks and which can be easily increased by another 15d6 damage on that full attack. The negative levels are also another 30 damage, along with -6 to pretty much everything.

If you put this Monk in a "most dangerous full-attacker" competition with the Hellfire Warlock, the Warlock is going to beat them to a pulp, figuratively.

Let's say you're an Aasimar Saint (BoED) Monk 20 (LA buyoff, since he gets Hellfire cheese) going up against said Hellfire Warlock.

Initiative is 50/50 since you're a light-armor build. Let's say you go first. You're size is currently Large (spell), though you deal damage as though Gargantuan thanks to a ring (or a feat, or a spell). You spend a swift action to 5' step up to the warlock. You then get a full attack - you've got the first 2 TWF feats and haste, plus you're wearing a +5 amulet of mighty fists and your standard stat-boosting gear. All told you've got a Wisdom mod of +14, a dex/con mod around +8. Your Str mod is a measly +3, but you've managed to get Dex to damage in place of Str, so you don't care. You get 4 attacks at 20+14+5+1+1-2=39 (before additional buffs), 2 attacks at +34, 1 at +29 and 1 at +24, and each one does 5d10+13 (average 40) damage. One of those attacks also does 4/5 con damage, so an extra 40 damage. Which means that if you hit with all of your attacks, you'll be dealing 9*40=360 HP damage.

That's off the top of my head optimization. The hypothetical hellfire warlock is already in 'theoretical optimization' territory to get that 24d6 damage/shot, and they'd have to be a Glaivelock build to be able to do that iteratively (I don't think you can stack the negative levels on an eldritch glaive, either, though that might be wrong).

Just throwing out some numbers, so you know where I'm coming from.

[Amechra]

1. Again, my DMs have never barred that combination; it's because all the people I play with play mid-high op games, so that is the kind of "cheese" I consider "competent".

2. Adding that in would be reduntant; it's still a 5' step, even though you are moving more than 5'. Therefor, it still uses the same mechanical baseline as a 5' step.

4. I completely forgot about the Invisibility definition. I'll have to specify.

5. I'm thinking about this one; I think I'll change it so that you bypass DR magic and DR material, but not DR alignment. And then I can just have the capstone increase it to "screw you, DR".

6. That sounds acceptable; it also makes using effects that would trigger Imperishable Body take an action from you instead of taking effect, so...

7. + 10. Taking these points into account... it really does reveal Ring the Golden Bell to be out of theme (you should be running around, punching people you don't like in the face); and, since you could grab a martial Light/One-Handed Throwing weapon with Monastic Weapon User if you want to fight at a range, I think I'll drop it. I just need another 7th level class feature...

10. You see, that DR 7/-? That's if you aren't dipping around to boost it. Barbarian DR is also horribly low; I'm going to be redoing the barbarian, and it will get hella DR as a thing. I'm going to shift Monk DR back down to just Wis mod, though.

11. Normally, I would agree with you about making it 1d6, but one of the things I'm restricting myself to with this class is that everything you do should be reliable, so that you can pretty much think your actions ahead, rather than leaving it up to chance.

I don't feel that this kind of fighting style is one that leaves much to chance.

12. For the Hellfire Warlock, you forgot Mortalbane, or the fact that they can take a single feat to get +2d6+20 damage against the monk if they are flatfooted (a bit unfair, since the Monk could do the same, but...)

Also, you are using Saint, which A. is one of the most powerful LA +2 templates in existence and B. is cripplingly specific in what kind of character you can play with it. Of course the Monk is going to be stronger! I've been in games that allowed the Hellfire Warlock but that didn't allow the Saint Template because the latter was too strong; it hands you a bunch of really strong defensive boosts.

Consider that in most mid-high op games, the Hellfire Warlock is considered to be necessary for the class to deal damage. The Warlock is a debuffer, not a damage dealer.

If we are doing a damage comparison, use Ubercharger instead of a Hellfire Warlock; the Hellfire Warlock (which is CO, not TO), while nice, is just a mildly cheesy way to get the Warlock to deal competent levels of damage without having to use a Glaivelock build.

Especially after I drop RtGB, the Monk would actually probably die to the Warlock, since the Warlock would be flying and would have a 200' range.

[Amechra]

I tweaked some things; Elegant Defense did not have to be tweaked, since effects that don't have an attack roll can't miss, and the class feature causes attacks to miss, instead of negating them.

I also reduced the BAB (they get 3 attacks at full BAB), and Ring the Golden Bell has been replaced by Eyes of Clarity, which lets you play a blind monk (or lets you play a monk who later gets blind, at the very least.)

I'm considering giving them some boost to their attack rolls, but I don't feel that that would be very necessary.

[Haluesen]

Wow there is a lot being said here. O.O I can't keep up with all the stuff so I'm just gonna say what I say.

Honestly this is a very cool class idea. I really do feel that the monk was in need of some tough love. Yeah honestly flavor-wise it doesn't really seem like a monk per se, but it at least has a lot of fun with what it does. And I do commend you making this class so spirited.

As far as balance goes I don't see anything wrong with it. I like how so many abilities for this class take the swift action, it really makes the player use their head with what they want to do. But overall I'm fairly new to any idea of optimization, so I have no idea how balanced the class actually is, just that it looks pretty well done. But I do want to say good job. :smallsmile:

[Amechra]

Thanks for the complement. It's nice to feel appreciated :smallwink:.

[kestrel404]

2. Adding that in would be reduntant; it's still a 5' step, even though you are moving more than 5'. Therefor, it still uses the same mechanical baseline as a 5' step.
If you're moving more than 5', as a GM I could easily rule that you're no longer making a 5' step but simply moving as a swift action. That's actually my initial reading. In which case yes, that ability provokes AoOs.

5. I'm thinking about this one; I think I'll change it so that you bypass DR magic and DR material, but not DR alignment. And then I can just have the capstone increase it to "screw you, DR".
Sounds good.

7. + 10. Taking these points into account... it really does reveal Ring the Golden Bell to be out of theme (you should be running around, punching people you don't like in the face); and, since you could grab a martial Light/One-Handed Throwing weapon with Monastic Weapon User if you want to fight at a range, I think I'll drop it. I just need another 7th level class feature...
Just remove the option of full-attacking with it. Make it a standard action. Monks and 'ki blasts' are fairly in-theme, it's just not their primary mode of attack. Give the ranged option a downside and it won't see constant use unless it becomes your 'signature' technique (i.e. you optimize for it).

10. You see, that DR 7/-? That's if you aren't dipping around to boost it. Barbarian DR is also horribly low; I'm going to be redoing the barbarian, and it will get hella DR as a thing. I'm going to shift Monk DR back down to just Wis mod, though.
Sounds good. With other changes made, the large self-healing isn't too terrible. Makes the monk night unkillable by damage, but that can be said of many classes.

11. Normally, I would agree with you about making it 1d6, but one of the things I'm restricting myself to with this class is that everything you do should be reliable, so that you can pretty much think your actions ahead, rather than leaving it up to chance.
Fair enough.


12.-Snip-
You didn't read anything I wrote beyond 'Saint'. Take away the saint template. Make the guy an untemplated human with an untyped +6 bonus to wisdom. My argument remains unchanged.
As for your counter points: Warlocks with Hellfire Warlock who gain +18d6 to damage by extending a 3-level prestige class beyond 3 levels are TO. Just because they're playable does not mean that the concept isn't a complete violation of RAI.
And no, I'm not going to do a comparison with Supercharger. Supercharger is completely worthless at anything other than charging. They've chosen every feat, class level, racial feature and skill point to maximize their ability to charge, and everything else they try to do suffers because of it. The monk I posited, on the other hand, is a viable fighter in virtually any combat scenario I care to think of, and I had at most 4 feats listed. I could just as easily do a comparison with a Batman Wizard and say that in comparison the monk was perfectly balanced without editing. I chose the Hellfire Warlock for comparison because they're an example of reasonable, versatile and high-op build capable of really significant damage output, while still remaining tier-4.
As for a 20th level monk losing to something because it has flight, now you're just being silly. We're talking high-end optimization here.

Edit: I like Eyes of clerity, though. That's a nifty mechanic. I'd even add: If the monk already has Blind Fighting, they may choose a different feat as a bonus feat.

[Amechra]

I did read beyond Saint.

Hellfire Warlock is CO; CO isn't RAI in any way, shape, or form.

Also, the negative levels for the Warlock would apply to every attack.

Also, that TWF with your Unarmed attacks? You can't TWF with your base Unarmed Attack, though base Monks can. This reduces you to 5 attacks, 6 with Haste (which the Glaivelock can benefit from too.)

Again, you are assuming a ton of magic items on your Monk (also, please tell me where you are getting +6 untyped to Wisdom? Or did you have that as a placeholder for "+6 to Wisdom in some way or other.")

Compare the Monk to an optimized Rogue. Or to a Glaivelock with actual items.

And I was kinda kidding with the flight, if only because the Monk can grab a ranged weapon that matches their Unarmed Strike in utility.

As for the 5' step thing, it explicitly doesn't have you move as a swift action. The ability explicitly states that you are modifying the distance of your next 5' step. I don't need to change anything.

Ring the Golden Bell is still an official feat option, so you can just take that.

I'm going to fiddle with Eyes of Clarity; if you already have Blind Fight, it will instead allow you to apply its benefits against ranged attacks and it will reduce miss chance from concealment to 20% across the board.

[kestrel404]

OK, in all honesty, at this point I think the class looks to be in great shape. I don't have any real problems with its balance at all. I think a few of the class features need a bit more clarification, but I tend to be very wordy.

Good job overall. Looks very nice.

[Amechra]

Thanks; considering I've been torturing myself recently by looking at my early homebrew (which was eye-tearingly bad, I think that I'm pretty satisfied with this as well.)

Now, what to make next...

(If anyone still sees any problems, they are welcome to post.)

[Haluesen]

Looked over again after thinking about some other class stuff that I know. Yes the class is very powerful. That just means that the other classes around it need to be strong too. :smallbiggrin:

So...mind if I show some of my friends this? They need to see what a real monk is like.

[Amechra]

If I didn't want this class to be used, I wouldn't have posted it.

Feel free to show it around and, if you want to, play it. Give it a test run. Run it through it's paces.

I feel like either doing the Barbarian or the Knight... does anyone have a preference?

The Knight would have a variety of abilities about defense and locking down your enemies.

The Barbarian would be about being pissy all the time. And then angry at others.

[Haluesen]

Alright cool. :smallbiggrin: Old habits, even when it should be obvious I always ask.

And I would say go for the Knight. Sounds like another good one the community really needs. Or whichever just sounds more fun to you. That should always be the first concern.

[Amechra]

I fixed a little mistake; mainly, they had no way of fighting Incorporeal beings!

So now Iron Fists allows them to treat their Unarmed Strikes as magic for the purpose of striking Incorporeal.

Oh, and stay tuned: I'm updating old ACFs to work with this Monk, so that's pretty neat.

[Razanir]

they're either responding to flavor or to standard terms like "this bonus is halved," "special monk weapons," "as the Monk class feature," "use X as an immediate action," and so forth that have fairly well-defined meanings already and are no more obtuse than other homebrew on these boards.

With all due respect to PairO'Dice, you really should change "as the Monk class feature." This is the monk. Whether or not it's an accepted phrase, it's still self-referential. Just pick a different class with the same ability, or specify as core monk.

That aside: I'll return later with a full PEACH. My first impression, though. It looks like a nice class. However, I disagree that it should be called a monk. Monks are supposed to be the archetype of the highly disciplined martial artist. This is a brawler. To be honest, it's chaotic enough that I'd restrict their alignment to chaotic, or at least non-lawful.

[Amechra]

And I'll just counter with the fact that I don't believe that alignment restrictions should be imposed on base classes.

And I will change that at some point. Believe me, I will (I just haven't had time...)

[Yakk]

Needs some refactoring.

I'd do away with the size-based damage thing. Size matters not. Or if it does matter, just treat it like size categories. Just have the main progression table have unarmed damage dice.

You use swift actions a lot. I don't see why -- how would it be horrible that a Monk can both make an extra attack, and move extra far, on the same round?

Abundant Step, while neat at low levels, becomes pretty trivial at high levels. Make it scale faster.

I'd tie the "reduce falling damage" to "Abundant Step" honestly. If Abundant Step scales up to 200' by level 20 (no, I'm not kidding), cancelling the first 200' of falling distance is pretty close to unlimited fall as well. Maybe too complex.

I'd split the "wis bonus to AC" from the "class bonus to AC".

I'd want to grant enhancement bonuses to AC, Fort/Will/Reflex, and Attack/Damage. And maybe even str/dex/con. Basically self-only perma-buffs that reduce item dependencies.

The bonus to tumple and balance checks -- why not make it always on?

Causing ranged attacks to miss is sort of cute. But you'll note that you are much better at shutting down physical attacks instead of spells -- why grant so much to spells?

You could simply grant increasing number of "negate effect" abilities to the Monk defensively. So, "negate ranged attack", "negate melee attack", "negate reflex effect", "negate fortitude effect", "negate will effect" -- each doesn't give you another save, it simply makes the spell fail to work.

Throw in freedom of movement, and an ability to take a move action out-of-turn before an effect goes off (to move out of the radius of effect), and you have an actually decent set of defences for high-level 3e.

For pseudo-mundane combat utility, throw in some initiative boosting abilities and inability to be surprised.

Some way to jump rediculous distances may also be appropriate, as well as silly things like running up walls and stepping on leaves by mid-high levels.

Possibly the ability to set your fists on fire may be genre appropriate (basically, be able to enchant your unarmed strikes with a pool of weapon enhancements).

Your "Imperishable" abilities -- failing a save, then a round later passing it, is rather difficult to work in the 3e structure. You get disintegrated, then get better seems strange. What I'd propose is if you like the "resave" idea instead of the "just ignore it" is to allow the Monk to delay the effects of a spell or effect completely, and on a later round make a resave. Only after the Monk runs out of resaves does the spell finally take effect on the Monk.

So the fireball goes off, and the monk has fire floating around her until 3 rounds later when the final resave fails, and the monk's flesh burns.

[Razanir]

And I'll just counter with the fact that I don't believe that alignment restrictions should be imposed on base classes.

And I will change that at some point. Believe me, I will (I just haven't had time...)

1) I somewhat agree with you. I don't like some restrictions. I always use variant paladins that can't be neutral. (Actually, I might make paladin and cleric rewrites some time) On the other hand, I like the druid's restriction. They're supposed to be one with nature, and neutrality fits well with that.

2) This class. While there are some (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/07/03/episode-437-companion/) civilized (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/07/06/episode-438-makin-friends/) barbarians (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/07/08/episode-439-everything-is-fighters-fault/), you could still make the case for Berserker Axinhead being neutral at best. It's this type of case, like you class, where the archetype suggests one alignment so strongly, that I advocate restrictions.

bonus comic (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/07/10/episode-440-berserkers-want-what-we-all-want-civilization/)

[Amechra]

@Kazanir: Allow me to give you two possible characters, created using this class.

Alfred the LN Monk spends much of his 'extra' time in meditation on the deep nature of the universe, and lives his life by a strict moral and ethical code that prohibits him from even touching a drop of alcohol, and keeps him chaste. Due to this extraordinary discipline, his body can shake off poisons, he can feel the world around him on the wind to intercept or dodge attacks, and he can time his strikes with such precision that he can strike as he is being struck.

Frank the CN Monk spends his time drinking and partying, and has drunk so much booze that his body has developed an extreme tolerance to the stuff. His flailing limbs manage to deflect attacks every so often, and he is a "master" of hitting people over the head with chairs, bottles, and tankards at just the right time.

Now, what was that about it being tied too strongly to a given alignment? Remember, Batman is all 9 alignments (http://api.ning.com/files/Oc7NGe*XpFl2WNjA6y9nl6zBjB6ZQ87hFpVHxy5AtS0HS3FM-jKmKNLsXi45AQbEieoTJd-ITar2d*B6pm6GBw__/batmanalignment.jpg), and I can think of several ways to have a clearly Lawful Barbarian.

But can we please drop the alignment discussion? No one is going to convince anyone else, and there is no way I'm changing the alignment line of this base class, so it would be a waste of everyone's time.

@Yakk:

1. People complained when I didn't have it size based; and the fix I originally did, where you took the higher, didn't feel satisfactory. If you can think of a better solution, I'm all ears...

2. The swift actions is because they give the class a tactical aspect. The thing is, you don't need to have Uber Move Speed every round, and, well, you are getting an extra Swift/Immediate at 10th level, so...

3. I may end up increasing it to 70'; I don't really think it needs much beyond that (seriously, though? It is really, really hard to wrangle up an 80' speed that isn't Flight without spells. And this stacks with any other speed increase you might have. How is that too small?)

4. Quite honestly? Spellcasters have Feather Fall if they need it; this guy doesn't need it. He's like a cat; he lands on his feet. Dying from falling is out of character for a Wuxia martial artist.

5. Do you have a good reason for me to? I mean, I have no problem with it, but I'd like to have some idea of your thought processes on this one.

6. In a word, NO. Seriously, other than the fact that I just remembered that I need to put in the standard "can enchant your body as a weapon/armor" in (probably as a feat, since, despite the fact that it doesn't feel like it, having a weapon that you can't be relieved of/disarmed of/deprived of due to sundering is a definite bonus), I'm going to say that the entire system is going to have to be fixed, Magic Christmas Tree-wise, and the way to do that is not to hand piecemeal fixes out. Or take one of those fixed VoP things.

7. I don't really have a good reason to not have them be constant... oh wait! There is the fact that that's pretty much a fluff ability, since Tumble and Balance DCs tend to either be low, or something that you'd be willing to spend your Swift actions on?

8. Ranged attacks, which scales up to melee attacks, which scales up to "any effect that wouldn't be able to be used on someone with Total Cover". Also, the Ranged Attacks and Melee Attacks can block ranged touch attacks and rays; it isn't exactly my fault that there aren't that many mundane abilities that don't include attack rolls (wait a sec! Homebrewer. Yes, I can remedy that.)

9. Giving any resource to track outside of your actions is against my intent when I made this class; this is partially intended to be "baby's first action economics class". Plus, I think it's simpler my way.

10. For Freedom of Movement, Empty Step says high. As for Move Actions out of turn, I can kinda see a feat that lets you take a move action as an immediate action.

11. Look at Rough and Tumble. Notice the fact that Initiative checks are Dexterity checks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) Realize that the Monk has a built in +Wis to initiative. And, quite frankly, "negate surprise" sounds more like a feat budding off of Improved Initiative to me (Supreme Initiative?), rather than an exclusive class feature.

12. Unorthodox Expertise lets you stand on anything that can support your weight. Which can, due to that class feature, be 1 pound. I may scale it up a bit faster, and change the minimum to 1 ounce, to better facilitate walking on Spider Webs. If you want "running on walls", you have a decent Wisdom, and can pick up Up the Walls for the low, low price of getting your hands on even 1 Power Point. Which is seriously in flavor for the monk anyway, and opens you up for other spiffy psychic feats. Jumping far distances sounds like an enhancement to Abundant Step to me!

13. See "I'm going to make a feat that lets you enchant your body with magical enhancements" above, in #6.

14. Guess what? Disintegrate isn't a Death effect. Therefore, you can't use the Resave abilities against it. I'm going to be dropping the "need to be in one piece" requirement, since the Monk can't have their limbs removed by that point.

Alright, to make clear a few goals:


This guy is supposed to party with the Warlock and friends, not to stare whistfully at the party where the Tier 1s and Tier 2s are partying. Any "but it needs these things to compete!" should be seen in that light. It is, in my mind, more enjoyable to play in a Tier 3/4 game than it is to play with the big boys. Plus, as I was complaining to a friend, I could grant them Miracle as an SLA 1/day at 17th level and an extra time a day each level thereafter, and it would still be pretty much completely outstripped by the insanity that is Tier 1/2. So yeah... I'm rather pleased about where the class is.
What makes hand-to-hand fighters more worthy of freedom from magic item dependency than someone who uses a sword? Or a bow? Or, hell, a different hand-to-hand fighter (i.e., one built using a different class. Because the fact that you can mix-and-match classes is really the strength of 3e, and weakening that by setting up double-standards is what has resulted in our problems in the system, IMO.)?
This guy can, if he really feels like it, wear certain types of light armor. He can also wield weapons and have them be as good as his Unarmed Strike. So, yeah. Martial Artists should be able to be armored (a little bit, at least), and should be able to fight with their martial tradition of swordplay/axeplay/whatever. I think I need to expand Monastic Weapon User to apply to bows, though... It is within genre for Martial Artists to use magical weapons and even magical robes and such.

[Amechra]

Mystical Body is up as a feat (Ancestral Weapon for Unarmed Strikes), there is an ACF (so you can be a Samurai), and a slight tweak to our friend Unarmed Fighter (now it outright states that your Unarmed Strikes don't provoke. If that seems redundant to you, check out Monastic Weapon User, and how it now lets you use bows.)

Also, some class features are being tweaked...


Your effective weight decrease scales faster. Your average Monk will be balancing on leaves by 4th level.
Evasion and Improved Evasion now reference the Rogue class feature. I blame my carpal tunnel and the fact I have to type one-handed for my laziness.
Oh, and thank you for your critiques; I usually get barely any...

[Razanir]

PLAYING A MONK
You get in someone's face, and you beat them down. They cast some big "death spell" on you? Shake death off an continue punching them in the face.
Combat: Face, meet fist. FIST! MEET! FACE!.
Advancement: Advance however you feel like.
Resources: A Monk has a ton of resources, because they are at least a bit respected by those around them now.

CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD
"That's no Monk! I'm a Monk! Guys? Guys? Why are you taking him instead of me?"
-Some "Monk"

A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!
Daily Life: Wake up, wondering about what crazy things you got up to in the bar. Roll over, and notice with satisfaction that it's just one of your groupies. Then you have an awesome day.
Notables: There have been many monks, but none are so famous as Frank the Brawler (Monk 6), who came from a small town, running away from the angry mob whipped up by a Cleric who disapproved of his whoring ways.
Organizations: A Monk fits in anywhere where they want someone who can fight that still has some smarts.

It's some of this stuff, like "A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!" that make it tough for me to imagine this monk as disciplined

[Amechra]

Repeat after me:

"Fluff is entirely mutable. Fluff is entirely mutable. Much of that fluff was written as a joke, since I was under the impression that no-one actually reads/takes that stuff seriously."

And, quit frankly, what stops a lawful character from performing any of those behaviors? For all we know, Frank is lawful, and he has a very methodical way of going about his whoring.

If it makes you feel better, I'll clean up the fluff (because apparently people make value judgements off of entirely mutable window dressing?) after my carpal tunnel quiets down.

(Note to self: make a class one of these days that is completely devoid of fluff.)

[Haluesen]

Awe but I absolutely loved the fluff on this one...no joke. :smallfrown: It was very funny. Throw all that alignment and common conceptions on monks aside; this sounds like a monk that actually has fun being one. :smallbiggrin:

I would try to do a critique based on power or balance, but honestly even though I am a long time D&D player power and balance are entirely new to me. I wouldn't fully know how to judge this, until I have a chance to test it. I'm hoping to have a campaign running with some friends shortly, and one wants to play a grappler. Maybe I can convince him to give this a look and try it for the game. I would, but I'm DMing, and I'm already very loosely DMPCing a character for story reasons.

Suffice it to say, I like the work you've done here, but hopefully I will have something more helpful to say after I've seen the class in action compared to some others.

Also, fluff is entirely mutable. :smallamused:

[Amechra]

Sweetness! Please, playtest data is important.

If he's going to grapple, may I suggest this feat?

Supreme Grapple
You are a master of wrestling people you don't like to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple
Benefits: You no longer automatically lose when attempting to grapple a creature 2 or more sizes larger than you. In addition, your bonus from the Improved Grapple feat improves to either +2 per size category larger than you that the creature you are grappling, or +4, whichever would be higher.
Normal: You can't supplex a dragon. What's up with that?

[Haluesen]

Hehe that does sound good. And I can see it as fairly balanced. Aren't there already feats that give a bonus based on the creature's size relative to yours? And my friend is such a ham; he would love the idea of suplexing a dragon. :smalltongue: I'll let you know as we play through it. I'm certain he'll love this idea.

[Amechra]

So, yeah, I tweaked the Unarmed Strike damage. Go me.

[Amechra]

I have made a small addition to the first post; namely, a note on what happens if a PrC says that it "advances" your Monk abilities.

[Haluesen]

Sorry to say I still haven't started that campaign yet, which should be early next week. My friend will be playing your Monk and I'll let you know what we see of it. He's eager to give it a try. :smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

I actually did a little bit of playtesting, though I was doing it in a campaign with a large amount of houserules.

They are very straight-forward to run, let me tell you that...

[Amechra]

I just added the Decisive Strike, Stepping Between Raindrops, and Zen Meditant ACFs.

Decisive Strike will, by 10th level, allow you to possibly deal triple damage on your first attacks against a given creature each round.

Stepping Between Raindrops allows you to use this class to build a ninja. 'Nuff said.

Zen Meditant is based a bit off of those "fixes" that add manifesting to the Monk. While this is not at that power level, it gives you a bunch of Psionic feats, allowing you to pull off some fun tricks.

[Haluesen]

Yay more stuff added! :smallbiggrin:

Update on the testing: so far going well. The Monk character is easily the hardest hitting member of the group and has done a fair job surviving. The group is currently 5th level, so we still have more testing to do. Admittedly he hasn't done much yet besides fight in exuberant fashion. I need to talk to the player about Skill Tricks, he isn't even using that class feature well. That's him rather than your class. Or maybe show him that new ACF.

To test all of those other abilities he has still I need to throw new challenges at them. I'll keep you updated on how things are going.

[Amechra]

What is everyone else playing?

Has he used Elegant Defense yet? I kinda don't expect Imperishable Body to come up too often at lower levels, but I'd like to here how making any ranged attack miss 1/round works out for him.

Actually, on that note, does he use a mix of the Swift/Immediate class features, or does he use one of them a lot?

Could you possibly show me his build? I'd like to see what direction he's going.

I'm glad to hear that he's enjoying the class (and fighting exuberantly; that's part of the reason I made this class!)

[Haluesen]

Well here is the full team (please note, this whole team is odd):

-Half-Elf Half-Klingnon (long story, similar stats to half orc but a bit better) Monk 4 (about to be 5)
-Elf Scythe Fighter 4 (my own homebrew class, basically scythe-based melee class with special attacks for it based on dragonfire adept breath effects)
-Elf Vector Witch 4 (based on Medusa from the anime Soul Eater, homebrew class found on this site)
-Human Archivist 3/Domain Wizard 2 (NPC assistant to cover their lack of most magic)
-Human SOLDIER 4 (another homebrew based on the class from Final Fantasy VII)
EDIT: I also forgot to mention the Human Dread Necromantress 4 with a Mother Cyst and the kindest most benevolent member of the team.

As you can see there is a ton of homebrew here. The Vector Witch is the main ranged attacker, the Scythe Fighter is her protector (Monk does more damage on average with Thousand Fists), the caster is just there for support and utility magic, and the SOLDIER is the main tank, able to take more hits and uses damage for special attacks (average attacks do slightly less damage than the Monk, but Limit Breaks do insane ammounts of damage, usually only usable once every 3-5 fights).

He hasn't really used Elegant Defense a lot but that is more my fault, since I haven't really been throwing ranged attackers at the party. I shall be rectifying that next session. I know he intends to use it, since he was talking all about Elegant Defense to one of our other friends. He loves the idea of a 1/turn NOPE button. We'll see next session, next week.

He primarily sticks to using Thousand Fists, though there will be more Swift/Immediate options the more he levels up so it might kick in later. Abundant Step hasn't seen much use yet, since in most fights all he needs to do is basic move action to enemy and 2 strikes, then keep smashing. Which means that for the next adventure, the best way to test him more would be far off enemies with ranged attacks, make him use both of those. :smallsmile:

I have his sheet right here, here are the basics:

Kilingelf Monk 4
Str 19, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10 (32 point buy with small edit for higher stats)
hp 54, AC 15, Init +7
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5
BA +3, grapple +11
unarmed strike +8 (1d8+5)
escape artist +3, jump +11, knowledge (planes) +6, sense motive +8, tumble +10 (or is it +12? need to look up skill synergies)
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative (he chose not to go with flaws)

And that's basically it. He mentioned wanting to take more grapple oriented feats as he went up. He has so far used most of the class other than Elegant Defense (again my fault), Abundant Step (needs opportunities), and School of Hard Knocks (I either need to get him into Skill Tricks, or show him Zen Meditant).

He does have a lot of fun, and honestly I think we all do. :smalltongue: The only hard part I have is challenging them in combat, especially him.

[Amechra]

I'm kinda curious about him having such a low Wisdom... but whatever works for him.

As for Grapple feats, check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209661).

I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but if a I see any, I'll link them here.

[Haluesen]

I'm certain he'll improve his Wisdom more as he levels. I'll remind him of its utility.

And thanks for the page, those feats are rather inspired. :smallsmile: I'll have to make sure the rest of the group sees them.

My game is full of a lot of homebrew, but so far everything seems nicely balanced so I'm not too worried. :smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

I just realized that I didn't have enough glaring in this class.

So now Iron Glare is an ACF. It is a bit lower on the power scale, but I'm not sure how I should ramp it up.

Maybe giving +1/2 Monk level as a bonus to Intimidate checks to Demoralize as a Standard action? That might work.

Also, just for the record...

Ninjas are Monks with the Step Between the Raindrops ACF; I might need to add a Poison Use ACF...

Samurais are Monks with the Ancestral Daisho, Decisive Strike, and Iron Glare ACFs.

[Haluesen]

Yeah I could see that boost to Iron Glare being worthwhile. Maybe some kind of crowd version of demoralize like what the Samurai had. That said I do say don't make it too similar to the Samurai, since it could be a lot better. :smallfrown: Maybe at a certain level using Intimidate to do worse than just demoralize, requiring a higher check or surpassing an opposed check by a higher amount than to just demoralize. I do't know how effective the dazed condition is, but it would be kind of cool to glare at someone so sternly that they are left immobile for a round. Maybe limit it though so it cannot be spammed. Monks having useful lockdown abilities would be a different path to take. Just mentioning small ideas.

I guess them fitting as ninja's and samurai works. It is definitely an improvement beyond the current versions of the class. :smallsigh:

[Amechra]

I fixed up Iron Glare; now, you can take a round at 7th level to Panic a guy for a round and make them Frightened for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier.

I also added Cloistered Viper, which lets you go lolno to poison immunity. Sure, you sacrifice the main "oh no" button of the class (Imperishable Body and friends), but you get the ability to poison good.

And by "poison good", I mean "bypass all immunities and resistance to poison."

[Haluesen]

Okay cool, there definitely look like there are some interesting effective other options for the monk now. :smallsmile: I'll have my friend look at this later and see if there is anything different he might consider before he levels too much.

I hate doing things like this but I have to ask a favor. I recently homebrewed my own class, the Bloodcaster. Could you possibly take a look at it and tell me what you think so far? I'm really not having much luck getting people to check it out. :smallfrown: Still I hate spamming requests at all.

[Amechra]

I've taken a glance at the Bloodcaster and will add some critiques in a bit.

I added another ACF; namely, Mind over Matter.

It allows you to reduce penalties to skills due to carrying large objects, and mitigates the penalties for carrying things over your heavy load.

In other words, it lets you carry heavy things without actually increasing how much you can lift.

[Haluesen]

Hmm so I see. I admit that I don;t use rules having to do with encumbrance and weight and such very often. I just keep an eye on the players' equipment and make sure it makes sense. So I can't honestly say what I think of the utility of such a class feature. Seems about par on usage with Unorthodox Expertise but I find making yourself light as a feather to be more interesting, plus the little balancing trick is cool. :smallsmile:

And thank you for taking a look at it. :smallredface: I've been having so many ideas for it today and I know I will be making much more homebrew built around this class and it's small system eventually. I have been rather discouraged that not many people have posted on it or seemed to give it a look. :smallfrown:

[Amechra]

Don't worry; few people critique homebrew unless it is one of the more "provocative" subjects (fighter fixes, mage slayers, etc, etc), or something they are interested in.

I've found really great old homebrew that has no comments at all, which were from some of the most popular homebrewers at that point in time.

[Haluesen]

Hmm that's a good point. I'm not sure how many more people than me have had the idea for a blood spellcaster class but it sounds like a fairly popular idea, and with my campaign setting I had to give it a try. I've been trying to look at more homebrew myself lately and there is a lot I like but usually cannot think of enough to comment on. But I'm starting to figure out who some of the major homebrewers are. As long as I can just get a few people to think my ideas are interesting, I'll be happy. :smallsmile:

On the topic of your Monk, I haven't been able to get ahold of that friend yet to work out any ACF's he may wish to use. I'm sure I'll be in touch before our session Friday. And I know I will have plenty to challenge his other abilities with. :smallamused: I kinda like how the "trying to scare/destroy the players" is the only way I can make interesting challenges for them, but sometimes it gets to be overwhelming, and I forget to challenge them in more different ways. Hence why there haven't been many chances to test out Elegant Defense yet.

[Amechra]

Any news on the friend front?

[Haluesen]

Well I called to him about it yesterday. We aren't going to be working on the character details until Friday when I next see him, but he wants to try the Iron Glare and Zen Meditation (if that is what it was called, I forgot to check) ACF's. He is the type to enjoy using Intimidate, and the idea of a psychic monk appeals to him more than a skilled monk. It isn't that he doesn't use skills or is a combat only person, but skills are usually at the bottom of his attention when gaming. Giving him access to Psionic feats may be best for him.

That said he does reiterate that yes, he does enjoy the class. He knows just how hard it is for me to challenge him with it. :smallamused: We'll see if it stays that way though. The challenge of course. I know he will keep with loving the class.

[Amechra]

Alright, I'm looking forward to what he does with the class.

[Amechra]

Alright, I just had a brainwave.

I'm going to drop the Mystical Body feat.

Instead, I introduce... rewritten gauntlet rules!

Gauntlets: A creature wearing gauntlets deals lethal damage with their unarmed strikes, but is otherwise considered unarmed; in addition, unarmed strikes made by a creature wearing gauntlets are considered to be made out of whatever material the gauntlets are made out of for all purposes.

A gauntlet may be enchanted as if it were a weapon, except it does not have to be Masterwork to be enchanted; however, if the gauntlets are not Masterwork, then only creatures who have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may benefit from those enhancements.

If gauntlets that have been enchanted as magic weapons are worn by a creature, that creature's unarmed strike is considered to have received the same enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities as the gauntlets.

[Haluesen]

Hmm the changed rules seems pretty helpful but Mystical body seemed rather interesting. Still it's your call.

Campaign is delayed until next week because our last player has business. So sorry for the lack of playtesting update. Should all be settled next Saturday.

[Amechra]

I'm probably going to leave Mystical Body up; I'm kinda bummed that Ancestral Weapon (the feat that its based off) requires a Masterwork item to begin with, thus preventing you from applying it to your Unarmed Strike without DM fiat.

[Haluesen]

Oh I see then, okay, so that's what you are trying to correct?

P.S: My comments will not be very insightful today, I am quite ill. :smallfrown: Otherwise this writing would be more interesting than just trying to say that I am ill.

[Amechra]

That makes two of us; recovering from surgery sucks.

[Lord Shardok]

I've been playing your monk rewrite for our campaign for a while now, and I have to say it is awesome. I never imagined that simply punching things in D&D could be this much fun. I would have mentioned this earlier but I didn't make an account until my friend started bugging me everyday. Keep up the great work. :smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

Thanks!

Could I see your build? I'm kinda curious.

[Lord Shardok]

Thanks!

Could I see your build? I'm kinda curious.

I'll put it up when I get the character sheet from Haluesen this weekend.

[Haluesen]

Heh glad you could make it here. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah Amechra I meant to give an update but my head's been all over the place lately, though now he can help with it since he has the most direct experience. So far? I almost fear having given him the psionic options (your ACF), I thought he was a beast before, dang. Though they are needed to even things up when I allow our other player to run dungeons. :smallamused: So I would say it all comes out as a net positive.

[Lord Shardok]

Heh glad you could make it here. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah Amechra I meant to give an update but my head's been all over the place lately, though now he can help with it since he has the most direct experience. So far? I almost fear having given him the psionic options (your ACF), I thought he was a beast before, dang. Though they are needed to even things up when I allow our other player to run dungeons. :smallamused: So I would say it all comes out as a net positive.

Shouldn't you have learned by now? :smallamused: