Playing NPCs realistically vs. Screwing over the players

[SilverLeaf167]

Let's say an NPC Cleric knows that he is going to be a guarding a prisoner who is very physically tough (high HP and Fortitude save) and strong. If that Cleric were to specifically prepare his spells in order to keep that one prisoner under control, and also keep him at low health to make him easier to knock out, would you, as a player, feel somehow pissed off about the DM using a class to its logical capability against you? It's not cheese or extremely high-op or anything, just preparing plenty of Hold Person spells etc. As a DM, would you ever act like this?

I personally have no idea how easily what the players would think about this happening, and don't really know how I feel about behaving this way myself. The players didn't seem to mind a Duskblade using almost all his daily spells in order to subdue the prisoner, in fact they found it rather epic, exciting and badass in a way. However, what I'm discussing here would be a lot less epic and more "Nope, you can't do that", which I'm sort of worried about.

[JoshuaZ]

Let's say an NPC Cleric knows that he is going to be a guarding a prisoner who is very physically tough (high HP and Fortitude save) and strong. If that Cleric were to specifically prepare his spells in order to keep that one prisoner under control, and also keep him at low health to make him easier to knock out, would you, as a player, feel somehow pissed off about the DM using a class to its logical capability against you? It's not cheese or extremely high-op or anything, just preparing plenty of Hold Person spells etc. As a DM, would you ever act like this?

I personally have no idea how easily what the players would think about this happening, and don't really know how I feel about behaving this way myself. The players didn't seem to mind a Duskblade using almost all his daily spells in order to subdue the prisoner, in fact they found it rather epic, exciting and badass in a way. However, what I'm discussing here would be a lot less epic and more "Nope, you can't do that", which I'm sort of worried about.

If you do do this, make sure that the NPC is described as not stupid at some point. Clerics don't necessarily have to have high int. A cleric with int of 5 who does this is very different than an int 10 or in 15 cleric who does this. You could make it more tolerable in part by having the cleric and the individual in question talk a bit where the cleric can explain his reasoning (say having had to deal with captured meat shields before). The only possible issue I see is that in-game characters don't have a rigorous notion of hit point, so the difference between keeping someone at low hitpoints and accidentally killing them may be blurry so they won't do something like keep they at exactly 1 hit point or the like.

[JellyPooga]

NPC's acting in a logical and sensible manner? Why not?

Unless the given NPC is supposed to have some kind of obligation, compulsion or whatever preventing him from certain types of action (and that includes flagrant idiocy), then I see no reason why an NPC should act any differently to the way a PC would expect to act.

If I was a Cleric with a dangerous prisoner to guard, you can bet your manly parts that I'd be preparing a lot of Hold Person, if that was the best spell for the job.

"Epic" comes from exciting situations. Guarding a prisoner isn't an exciting situation. Stopping a prison-break, on the other hand; that could be epic. In that situation, as a PC, I'd be naffed off if the Cleric had spells prepared that were more appropriate to fending off a prison break than holding the prisoner, especially if the Cleric wasn't supposed to know about the impending prison break. Why did he have Invisibilty Purge prepared? Gits and Shiggles? It breaks the immersion, even if it makes for a more varied/exciting combat encounter.

[Slipperychicken]

I personally get pissed as a player when the DM plays NPCs like idiots, to my benefit or otherwise (unless the NPC is supposed to be an idiot, of course). If you were DMing for me, I'd say have the Cleric go all-out. He has a job to do, and doing otherwise is bad roleplaying.

Also, let the PC get some feeling of accomplishment. If you learn all your enemies were going easy on you, your victories become meaningless because you didn't win anything. There was no opposition and no struggle. You're not playing dnd, just talking in funny voices and gawking at dice like a moron.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I personally get pissed as a player when the DM plays NPCs like idiots, to my benefit of otherwise. If you were DMing for me, I'd say have the Cleric go all-out. He has a job to do, and doing otherwise is bad roleplaying.

Agreed. Evil-Stupid is still stupid. NPCs are just as capable of making creative and critical decisions as a PC.

[krai]

I think him having spells ready that can incapacitate the player perfect sense, hold person and the like. If you're fighting a cleric that's kinda what you expect them to use. The one thing I have a bit of a problem with is the idea of the guy beating on his prisoner, this is a somewhat frowned on activity.
I would make that decision more based on the cleric's alignment. If he's evil (or evilish) than ok have him beat up the player, if he is not I think he should be prepared to fight with him but not attacking him while he is defenseless.

[SilverLeaf167]

Well, the people who imprisoned him are actually the local city watch, which the Cleric is a full-time member of. The party was being questioned for being sighted riding an undead dragon (which was totally true), and the situation didn't become violent until the PCs suddenly panicked when asked to drop their weapons and ran into three different directions. Since their charges were rather serious and their behavior was very suspicious, the guards gave chase. One party member managed to Dimension Door away and one hid in the forest, but the Fighter didn't get away quite so easy and was knocked unconscious with sustained heavy non-lethal damage by the Duskblade guard captain.

The Fighter is now basically in temporary detention for resisting arrest, but unless the rest of the party mucks up very badly he'll probably get out after the trial due to lack of actual evidence. He was healed only partially because bringing him in was such a huge job in the first place (the Duskblade had to channel 5 shocking grasps on him before he finally fainted), but will be completely healed once it is convenient and safe to do so. They will only resort to knocking him out if he tries something very violent and/or drastic, and prefer to incapacitate him in other ways if possible (I like the mental picture of being hit with Hold Person and a bunch of guards running in with chains, wrapping him up). The Cleric is friendly and sympathetic to him but definitely willing to make sure the trial is completed in a just manner. Further resistance definitely won't make the Fighter look any less suspicious.

And yes, the player does realize he'll probably get out after the trial and most likely won't try to escape on his own, but the rest of the party is much more unpredictable. I fully expect them to ram a huge zombie dragon through the prison wall or something, and that's why I'm trying to figure out the Cleric's spells in the first place. :smalltongue:

I guess I might as well ask you about the spells: the Cleric is level 6 and has the Law and Retribution domains. I'm assuming that he has spent a couple spells earlier in the day for other purposes, but he still has Bestow Curse (very handy to curse prisoners with something like "must lay down when "banana milkshake" is spoken, but only used on particularly rebellious prisoners), 2 Commands, Enthrall, 2 Hold Persons, Magic Circle Against Chaos (irrelevant against the Fighter, but he's not the only prisoner) and Shield of Faith prepared. He can convert any of these into Cure spells, but also has a Wand of Lesser Vigor on his person.
Do you see anything particularly unreasonable, and/or would you recommend changing some spells?