Swiftblade questions

[SirAxealot]

I'm looking at a swiftblade for my next character, and I'm looking for some ideas and answers to a couple of questions

First off, Haste is a 3rd level spell in the Time domain. Is it possible to use this to get into swiftblade in some advantageous way? I know swiftblade only advances arcane casting, but something might be possible here.

Second, the Swiftblade Handbook recommends Illumians as a race, but I'm not really clear on why. Can anyone explain what their sigils can do for a Swiftblade?

Now, I want to make a swiftblade who's melee oriented, but with strong casting support. What's the best method of entry? Wu Jen looks like it might be neat, but I'm not stuck on it.

[Snowbluff]

I would call Wiz6 for entry, since you can replace the feat at 1 and 5 with fighter bonus feats, as per the UA.

Depending on how Arcane Disciple works, if you know the spell you can use Versatile spellcaster to enter early.

IIRC, Haste is a first level spell for one of the Trap classes, making an option for early entry though extra spell.

I don't know about Illums aside from the fact they get a DMM like effect with one of the sigil combos.

[SirAxealot]

IIRC, Haste is a first level spell for one of the Trap classes, making an option for early entry though extra spell.


Not sure what you're talking about here.

[Daftendirekt]

Trapsmith from Dungeonscape gets Haste as a 1st level spell. However, the requirement of 8 ranks in several skills to get into Trapsmith means level 6 is the earliest entry. Entering Swiftblade at level 7 is the norm. This is not an early entry route.

Also, having just checked out that handbook myself... it's not very well done at all.

[SirAxealot]

Also, having just checked out that handbook myself... it's not very well done at all.

What changes would you make to it?

(I was just reading your Swift Ambusher handbook the other day, good work.)

[barna10]

Several books make mention of converting Arcane Prestige classes to Divine version and vice versa. If you want a Swiftblade that advances divine casting instead, go for it.

For early entry, try convincing your DM that Swift Haste should allow you to qualify. It is treated as Haste for all respects so it's really not that big of a stretch.

IF he allows Swift Haste for entry, you could get in at level 4 by being a Mystic Ranger.

[Seharvepernfan]

I'd strongly consider checking this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198) out.

[Daftendirekt]

What changes would you make to it?

(I was just reading your Swift Ambusher handbook the other day, good work.)

Mostly just awkward formatting for a lot of little stuff, which I suppose is just personal preference on my part. But there are also some things that are included but not explained (like the aforementioned rating for Illumian without explaining why). And that list of "desirable spells"? A lot of them are subpar and none of them are rated or explained.

[jedipilot24]

I would call Wiz6 for entry, since you can replace the feat at 1 and 5 with fighter bonus feats, as per the UA.


A more optimized choice would be a Gray Elf with the Elven Generalist Wizard variant.


Second, the Swiftblade Handbook recommends Illumians as a race, but I'm not really clear on why. Can anyone explain what their sigils can do for a Swiftblade?

The Illumian Sigils Naen and Krau give you: +1 bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks. +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level) as well as the ability to leave a few spell slots empty to boost your DC's on the rest.


Now, I want to make a swiftblade who's melee oriented, but with strong casting support. What's the best method of entry? Wu Jen looks like it might be neat, but I'm not stuck on it.

See above, Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard. The first and third sub levels are generally seen as the most valuable, the fifth is not so important--especially since you're melee focused but you can still take regular Wizard up to 6th level.
The Elf Paragon class is possible but not recommended if you want 9th level spells.

[SirAxealot]

I'd strongly consider checking this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198) out.

Homebrew, unfortunately.


A more optimized choice would be a Gray Elf with the Elven Generalist Wizard variant.

See above, Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard. The first and third sub levels are generally seen as the most valuable, the fifth is not so important--especially since you're melee focused but you can still take regular Wizard up to 6th level.
The Elf Paragon class is possible but not recommended if you want 9th level spells.

I guess my main concern is the ability of an elf wizard to be able to suck up a hit in melee.

[tyckspoon]

I guess my main concern is the ability of an elf wizard to be able to suck up a hit in melee.

Pretty dang good, especially if you season your Swiftblade with a bit of Abjurant Champion... well, ok, you're still not so good at actually absorbing damage. You are quite good at *not getting hit* in the first place, tho.

[SirAxealot]

Yeah, it's when that hit inevitably gets through that worries me.

[Daftendirekt]

-2 Con doesn't mean you're incapable of having a decent Con score. It just makes it harder. It means having a 14 instead of a 16, for example.

[SirAxealot]

-2 Con doesn't mean you're incapable of having a decent Con score. It just makes it harder. It means having a 14 instead of a 16, for example.

Well for a 1st level swiftblade entering after wizard 6, you've got what, maybe 32 hitpoints? I know you can avoid stuff, but to me it seems incredibly low. Of course, I mostly have played barbarians and paladins and such, but still.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, anything feels low on HP after having a d12 HD. In my group's campaign that just ended at level 10, we did max HP. So, my gnome wizard (16 con) had I believe 81 HP. The human barbarian I believe had over 300 while raging.

[SirAxealot]

And the hits that are most likely to land are the ones most likely to hurt a lot thanks to crits...

[barna10]

I guess it really depends on how fast you want to get into Swiftblade. If you don't mind entering later (like 10th level) there are many options to make for a tougher Swiftblade.

What's your plan?

[nedz]

Well Swiftblade screams GISH to me which means quite late entry with the level 3 spell requirement, at least for a good one.

[Seer_of_Heart]

And the hits that are most likely to land are the ones most likely to hurt a lot thanks to crits...

If you're that worried about health take the faerie mysteries initiate feat to use Int for Hp instead of Con. Boom! Your highest ability score is now used for HP. (Can be abused to get a very large amount of health)

[barna10]

If you're that worried about health take the faerie mysteries initiate feat to use Int for Hp instead of Con. Boom! Your highest ability score is now used for HP. (Can be abused to get a very large amount of health)

That is as long as you don't mind having to make your game into a virtual porn as the feat requires you to copulate with a fairy regularly to keep the benefits.

[Seer_of_Heart]

That is as long as you don't mind having to make your game into a virtual porn as the feat requires you to copulate with a fairy regularly to keep the benefits.

Its just once. If you switch out the bonus for some reason you have to copulate again. But who'd do that? :smallconfused:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Did anyone mention that illumians can regain some lost spellcasting levels and change their casting stat to Strength? That is awesome. Also Battle Sorcerer (UA variant) is an amazing way to sneak into Swiftblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragonborn of Bahamut can help your Con needs if you don't mind looking like a humanoid dragon (and most people won't :smallcool:), Wing Aspect is pretty good for mobility and it can save you a few slots (why cast fly or even Overland Flight when you have EX fly speed). Heart Aspect gives you a rechargeable breath weapon, which means Entangling exhalation for some pretty decent battlefield control that once again doesn't cost you spell slots.

Even better you still count as elf for eveything, so you can still get the Wizard substitution levels (though I am not sure if you loose your racial proficiencies, sadly the class specify martial weapons; but it is pretty reasonable to ask your DM if EWP would work to meet the pre-requisite)

[SirAxealot]

I guess it really depends on how fast you want to get into Swiftblade. If you don't mind entering later (like 10th level) there are many options to make for a tougher Swiftblade.

What's your plan?


Well Swiftblade screams GISH to me which means quite late entry with the level 3 spell requirement, at least for a good one.

Not quite sure, but I'd like to get into it pretty early, my game is in low levels and we level slowly.

Beguiler, factotum, wu jen, and shugenja are all alternatives to Sorc/Wizard that can get in at level 7. I have no interest in bard.

Duskblade and Hexblade are both cool gish bases, but insofar as I'm aware they can't get in thanks to lacking Haste. I'm sure someone else knows a way around this though.

Like I said in my first post, I'd like to do most of my fighting in melee, with spells for utility and buffing, if that helps narrow things down.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Battle Sorcerer gets you in at 6, as does Beguiler. With an alternative class feature War Mage can swing you in at 8. All three have decent HP and spell selection.

[barna10]

Not quite sure, but I'd like to get into it pretty early, my game is in low levels and we level slowly.

Beguiler, factotum, wu jen, and shugenja are all alternatives to Sorc/Wizard that can get in at level 7. I have no interest in bard.

Duskblade and Hexblade are both cool gish bases, but insofar as I'm aware they can't get in thanks to lacking Haste. I'm sure someone else knows a way around this though.

Like I said in my first post, I'd like to do most of my fighting in melee, with spells for utility and buffing, if that helps narrow things down.

Factotum is an interesting choice, but Swiftblade doesn't advance the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability nor can he actually "cast" Haste by RAW (spell like abilities). Even if your DM allows the Factotum to qualify, He can only cast Haste once per day (as per Arcane Dilettante).

Master Trapsmith is an entry method that works by RAW (it's in Dungeonscape). Take Factotum 5/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade x.

My preferred entry method is Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane order feat (allows Ranger to cast Wizard spells using Ranger slots). This can be interpreted that the "Ranger" class is now an Arcane casting class (since it enables you to cast Wizard spells) and therefore should work with Swiftblade. This then gives you access to Swift Haste which states that it functions as Haste which means you should be able to trigger the Swiftblade class abilities by casting it.

[Averis Vol]

Seconding battle sorcerer with stalwart from Cmage. That will give you 1d8+2 hp a level before con, as well as martial weapon prof and focus with a weapon (General consensus is greatsword, as always.) also, if you are jsut worried about the con loss, go with snow elf from frostburn; +2 dex -2 cha for base stats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Stalwart is more iffy here. The +2 is nice, but I only take it if I intend stay in Battle Sorcerer for more than 5 levels. So BSorc 10/Swift 10 would be fine, but I prefer BSorc 6/Swiftbalde 10/Ab Champion 4, so Stalwart is sub-par there.

[nyjastul69]

That is as long as you don't mind having to make your game into a virtual porn as the feat requires you to copulate with a fairy regularly to keep the benefits.

How so? An intimate relationship does not imply copulation. I have a more intimate relation with my mother than my siblings do, that does not mean I've ever copulated with her. :smallconfused:

[SirAxealot]

Yes, it seems to me that Stalwart sorcerer just isn't worth it, sacrifice too much for class features that will just be replaced later.

Battle sorcerer is iffier, the D8 HD is great but the spell reduction hurts. Assuming you have an 18 in Cha though, you're still getting 6 lvl 3 spells per day at level 6.

otoh Wizards can get into Swiftblade at level 6 instead of level 7... Tough call!

[barna10]

How so? An intimate relationship does not imply copulation. I have a more intimate relation with my mother than my siblings do, that does not mean I've ever copulated with her. :smallconfused:

It doesn't say "intimate" it says an "exuberant sensual act" which leaves both "partners invigorated". I don't see myself doing this with my mom.

[nyjastul69]

It doesn't say "intimate" it says an "exuberant sensual act" which leaves both "partners invigorated". I don't see myself doing this with my mom.

You are correct. I confused it with Nymph's Kiss for some reason. I apologize for the the distraction.:smalleek:

[Namfuak]

It doesn't say "intimate" it says an "exuberant sensual act" which leaves both "partners invigorated". I don't see myself doing this with my mom.

You've never seen fireworks with your mom before? That's exuberant and sensual. Maybe the two people are just casting really interesting dancing light patterns at each other.

[barna10]

You've never seen fireworks with your mom before? That's exuberant and sensual. Maybe the two people are just casting really interesting dancing light patterns at each other.

Sure, fireworks.

[SirAxealot]

One other thing - How necessary is power attack for a Swiftblade?

[ZamielVanWeber]

You can grab all sorts of buffing spells. I would spend my fears on buffing my buff spells and toys like combat casting. Add in a damage spell or two and power attack just looks worthless.

[Averis Vol]

Stalwart is more iffy here. The +2 is nice, but I only take it if I intend stay in Battle Sorcerer for more than 5 levels. So BSorc 10/Swift 10 would be fine, but I prefer BSorc 6/Swiftbalde 10/Ab Champion 4, so Stalwart is sub-par there.

The thing is, I really see no reason not to take it. Yes, you lose out on spells known, but a character meant strictly for melee can just choose his combat buff spells without having to worry about party utility. Sure, that is rough if he/she is the only caster in the party, but for the most part the rogue can UMD the occasional utility spell (Or you can use it from a scroll or wand or staff or what have you).

[Averis Vol]

One other thing - How necessary is power attack for a Swiftblade?

only as important as it is to other non precision melee damage characters.

[Andreaz]

One other thing - How necessary is power attack for a Swiftblade?Depends on what you want to do with it. If you're getting just PA it doesn't do much, but it's handy. If you're getting any of the complementary feats go to town. An advantage is that you can always cast Wraithstrike and PA against touch AC, nearly guaranteeing the hit against most enemies.

[SirAxealot]

I was just wondering about PA cause I had seen a couple of places where people said it was suboptimal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The thing is, I really see no reason not to take it. Yes, you lose out on spells known, but a character meant strictly for melee can just choose his combat buff spells without having to worry about party utility. Sure, that is rough if he/she is the only caster in the party, but for the most part the rogue can UMD the occasional utility spell (Or you can use it from a scroll or wand or staff or what have you).

Thing is, combined you lose two spells per level, so it takes 4 levels to get a new spell after the first. Combined with 4 levels lost and a mandatory haste at 3rd level, you have no room for buff spells. If you are taking more levels of sorcerer and improved familiar it would be awesome. As is he is not doing either, it makes sense.

[Andreaz]

I was just wondering about PA cause I had seen a couple of places where people said it was suboptimal.Arcane gishes typically are lighter armored and favor dex over str, and thus will use weapons to which PA isn't useful.
But you can be a full-str gish and break faces.

[SirAxealot]

So what would a typical combat look like for, say, a Sorc 6/swiftblade 7 look like?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, so quickened haste, animalistic frenzy for +2 to all physical stats. Move and attack. Use spell shield to deflect return damage. Next turn ray of enfeeblement, full attack. Just loop appropriate buff/debuff spell +full attack.

[Averis Vol]

bladeweave and fist of stone before combat. Once it starts, quickened haste, charge. I would suggest a warmace for your weapon, for the full d12 damage two handed as martial, plus you can throw greater mighty wallop on it. then activate wand of wraithstrike and full attack to your hearts content.

[Averis Vol]

Thing is, combined you lose two spells per level, so it takes 4 levels to get a new spell after the first. Combined with 4 levels lost and a mandatory haste at 3rd level, you have no room for buff spells. If you are taking more levels of sorcerer and improved familiar it would be awesome. As is he is not doing either, it makes sense.

you lose one spell known of the highest level you can cast and one spell per day.

[SirAxealot]

bladeweave and fist of stone before combat. Once it starts, quickened haste, charge. I would suggest a warmace for your weapon, for the full d12 damage two handed as martial, plus you can throw greater mighty wallop on it. then activate wand of wraithstrike and full attack to your hearts content.

Why a warmace as opposed to the ever-popular greatsword?

[tyckspoon]

Why a warmace as opposed to the ever-popular greatsword?

Bludgeoning weapons qualify for (Greater) Mighty Wallop, which makes it deal damage as if it was up to five size categories larger. There is no equivalent spell for slashing/piercing weapons, AFAIK, which makes a bludgeoning weapon the best choice if you want the best damage you can get off the weapon itself. I don't think I'd bother with the Warmace if you're going to be wielding it two handed, tho; the difference between the d12 and d10 size progressions is not huge, and there's a really stupid -1 AC penalty on using the Warmace.

[Averis Vol]

Bludgeoning weapons qualify for (Greater) Mighty Wallop, which makes it deal damage as if it was up to five size categories larger. There is no equivalent spell for slashing/piercing weapons, AFAIK, which makes a bludgeoning weapon the best choice if you want the best damage you can get off the weapon itself. I don't think I'd bother with the Warmace if you're going to be wielding it two handed, tho; the difference between the d12 and d10 size progressions is not huge, and there's a really stupid -1 AC penalty on using the Warmace.

Basically that, though I forgot about the -1 to ac.....you'd be better off with a maul or some such.

[SirAxealot]

Something else I was just thinking: Would a Warblade's maneuvers work well with a swiftblade, since to use Leap Attack you can only make one hit per turn?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Possibly, but beware spreading yourself too thin. Big reasons I like BSorc for this: massive flexibility in selection lets you tailor your buff spells to suit your party; customized list; you can drop some zany shenanigans. Haste followed by anti magic field is hilarious when you crash into melee.

[SirAxealot]

Well, I was just thinking that
1) Warblade would be a good way to get the martial weapon proficiencies
2) Better starting skills than Wizard or Sorc - not that this is a huge deal, but still.
3) The "Typical" Swiftblade is Sorc 6, Swiftblade 9, Abjurant Champion 5. However, Abjurant Champion 5 doesn't do all that much for you, and while I think it would lead to losing out on 8ths, if you never get to 8ths it doesn't matter much, and Sorc 6/Warblade 1/Swiftblade X seems like it would be a bit punchier in melee.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorcerer 6, swift 9/10, abj 4/5 gives 8th.

[Averis Vol]

Sorcerer 6, swift 9/10, abj 4/5 gives 8th.

Another point. Swiftblade has some seriously gimped casting, so if you are okay with that, then shoot for it, but if 9ths are a necessity to you, well...... I would stop after 3 or 5 levels.

Warblade is on the same thought train as full swiftblade, if you don't mind no 9ths, go for it, but I would take it at 7th level, so you can get a choice of decent level two maneuvers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I prefer wizard base because you don't loose 9ths if you go Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 5

[ZamielVanWeber]

Some clarity: when it says the Swiftblade does 2d6 damage the turn she moves 20+ feet, does that mean of an a!or all attacks or automatically? I always took it to mean all attacks.

[Snowbluff]

Not sure what you're talking about here.


I prefer wizard base because you don't loose 9ths if you go Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 5

Don't forget the feats. :smallwink:

[SirAxealot]

Sorcerer 6, swift 9/10, abj 4/5 gives 8th.

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I mean that if you never play to a level where you get 8ths, then not getting 8ths doesn't matter much. Thus, you might was well take a little dip now that will help a lot in the level you are at


Don't forget the feats. :smallwink:

Which feats?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay. I see what you mean. That it boils heavily down to personal preference. The trade off is even enough. My only big concern is that you lose out on a lot of racial choices because of multiclassing penalty.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I mean that if you never play to a level where you get 8ths, then not getting 8ths doesn't matter much. Thus, you might was well take a little dip now that will help a lot in the level you are at



Which feats?

Martial Wizard (variant from UA/SRD) trades normal wizard bonus feats (and scribe scroll) to be able to select feats from the fighter feat list. Thus a Wizard 6 would have 2 extra feats over sorc 6.

[SirAxealot]

So wait, you would get feats a 1, 2, 4, and 6?

Wow, that's awesome. Too bad it's limited to fighter feats : /

[only1doug]

Martial Wizard (variant from UA/SRD) trades normal wizard bonus feats (and scribe scroll) to be able to select feats from the fighter feat list. Thus a Wizard 6 would have 2 extra feats over sorc 6.


So wait, you would get feats a 1, 2, 4, and 6?

Wow, that's awesome. Too bad it's limited to fighter feats : /

umm, not quite that way, you gain a fighter bonus feat at 1,5,10 and 15 (or 1 and 5 for this case) and lose scribe scroll and wizard bonus feats.


Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)
Some wizards trade their knowledge of magic and craft to improve their combat prowess.

Gain
Bonus feat list (as fighter; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard).

Lose
Scribe Scroll, wizard bonus feat list.

[SirAxealot]

So I'm still undecided on Sorcerer vs Wizard for my entry.

The Sorcblade:
Battle Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 4/Spellsword 1
- BAB 18, 8th level spells
- average of 88 HP before Con & such
- 8 Fort, 9 Ref, 17 Will

Feats:
1st Expeditious Dodge
Flaw Mobility
3rd Combat Casting
6th Arcane Strike
9th Power Attack
12th Elusive Target
15th Metamagic: Quicken
18th Practiced Spellcaster

Race undecided. One option would be Silverbrow Human with the Draconic Sorcerer substitution levels, swapping a level of Sorc in for that last level of Abj Champ. And picking up a feat.


The Wizzblade

Wizard 5/Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 5/Spellsword 1
- BAB 17, 9th level spell(s)
- average of 78 HP before Con & such. However if Faerie Mysteries Initiate is taken then HP will go up considerably.
- 7 Fort, 8 Ref, 16 Will

1st Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Flaw Expeditious Dodge
3rd Mobility
5th Metamagic: Quicken
6th Combat Casting
9th Arcane Strike
12th Power Attack
15th Elusive Target
18th Practiced Spellcaster

Race undecided. Human, Illumian, or some sort of Elf.


The Gishblade
Same as the Wizzblade, but it drops a level of Abj Champ to put in Crusader, getting some maneuvers and a stance but missing out on 9ths by a whisker. While I love ToB, I'm a bit torn here.

Considerations:
Torn between the juiciness of an elf for the wizard, or human/silverbrow human for extra feat. Silverbrow might have a little perk for Sorcerer. Illumian is a third option, but I'm not that familiar with what their head things do.

The 5th level of Abj Champ is relatively lame from a class feature standpoint, and spellsword is reasonable enough but also nothing spectacular. I'm open to replacing those two levels with something else or even getting rid of Abj Champ entirely, should a good enough suggestion present itself.

Not sure on my feat choices, critique welcome. Curse you feat taxes, and whoever thought you were a good idea!

I'm sure I'm missing something, as it's almost 6 am lol

[Daftendirekt]

Some clarity: when it says the Swiftblade does 2d6 damage the turn she moves 20+ feet, does that mean of an a!or all attacks or automatically? I always took it to mean all attacks.

I read that ability as pretty much working like Skirmish. Therefore, it would work on every attack in a round that it is triggered.

[SirAxealot]

One other racial option: Magic-Blooded Lesser Maeluth for Sorcerer, if that will qualify you for the dwarf sorc substitution levels. +4 Con, + 2 Cha, -2 Dex, -2 Wis. While the negative to Dex is a pain, you get to have both your Cha and your massive Con count for bonus spells per day, for a whopping 9 per day if you get 20 Con, 18 Cha, and 13 dex, 10 Str, 10 Int, 6 Wis under 32 point buy. It even works well for a Maeluth - you're a a bundle of eldritch dynamite with a very short fuse. And reasonably tough to boot, especially if you still go Battle Sorcerer.

And with that burst of optimization, I am exhausted.

[Aracor]

The Sorcblade:
Battle Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 4/Spellsword 1
- BAB 18, 8th level spells
- average of 88 HP before Con & such
- 8 Fort, 9 Ref, 17 Will

Feats:
1st Expeditious Dodge
Flaw Mobility
3rd Combat Casting
6th Arcane Strike
9th Power Attack
12th Elusive Target
15th Metamagic: Quicken
18th Practiced Spellcaster

Race undecided. One option would be Silverbrow Human with the Draconic Sorcerer substitution levels, swapping a level of Sorc in for that last level of Abj Champ. And picking up a feat.

Does this meet the requirements for Spellsword? I don't see any method of getting proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, and all armor.


The Wizzblade

Wizard 5/Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 5/Spellsword 1
- BAB 17, 9th level spell(s)
- average of 78 HP before Con & such. However if Faerie Mysteries Initiate is taken then HP will go up considerably.
- 7 Fort, 8 Ref, 16 Will

1st Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Flaw Expeditious Dodge
3rd Mobility
5th Metamagic: Quicken
6th Combat Casting
9th Arcane Strike
12th Power Attack
15th Elusive Target
18th Practiced Spellcaster

Race undecided. Human, Illumian, or some sort of Elf.

Wizard 5 doesn't have a +3 BAB, so you've definitely not reached the prerequisites for Swiftblade here. Same comment about spellsword and weapon/armor proficiencies.


The Gishblade
Same as the Wizzblade, but it drops a level of Abj Champ to put in Crusader, getting some maneuvers and a stance but missing out on 9ths by a whisker. While I love ToB, I'm a bit torn here.
This one would work if you put the Crusader level as your level 6. Crusader also meets the requirements for Swiftblade.


Considerations:
Torn between the juiciness of an elf for the wizard, or human/silverbrow human for extra feat. Silverbrow might have a little perk for Sorcerer. Illumian is a third option, but I'm not that familiar with what their head things do.

The 5th level of Abj Champ is relatively lame from a class feature standpoint, and spellsword is reasonable enough but also nothing spectacular. I'm open to replacing those two levels with something else or even getting rid of Abj Champ entirely, should a good enough suggestion present itself.

Not sure on my feat choices, critique welcome. Curse you feat taxes, and whoever thought you were a good idea!

I'm sure I'm missing something, as it's almost 6 am lol
Spellsword is tricky without taking a level in an actual fighter-type class because of the "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor" requirement. So at least a couple of those builds you've got don't work as listed unless I'm missing something obvious (which I might be).

[SirAxealot]

Good catches, thanks!

Any advice on other classes to slide in there? They can be normal casting classes, since good gish PrCs seem to be somewhat thin on the ground

I wish Bladesinger wasn't such a pain to get into, it would fit perfectly from a flavor perspective.

EDIT: Speaking of Bladesinger, would Spelldancer have anything to offer here? A couple of levels A little BAB hit, but full casting and some good abilities. And you'd only have to get Endurance, as the other prereqs would be taken for Swiftblade and Abj. Champ anyways.

[Aracor]

Dragonslayer is the only one I know off the top of my head that actually GIVES a bunch of proficiencies rather than just requiring them. But overall, I guess I don't really see what spellsword is giving you though. If you're taking abjurant champion, one of the major things the class gives you is increased effectiveness of armor and shield spells, so the 5th level of it is increasing your armor and shield bonuses by one each as long as you're using spells to get those bonuses rather than equipment - which means you'll be getting a +2 to your AC total. I can't see spellsword giving anything better than that, especially if you either get a house-ruled abjuration version of Mage Armor, or just use luminous armor instead. +9 armor and +9 shield bonus between mage armor and shield seems helpful to your squishiness. Along with the evasion-type abilities you get from Swiftblade, it should be a reasonable defense.

[tyckspoon]

If you're taking abjurant champion, one of the major things the class gives you is increased effectiveness of armor and shield spells, so the 5th level of it is increasing your armor and shield bonuses by one each as long as you're using spells to get those bonuses rather than equipment ...

Equipment gives you a place to mount armor/shield properties that spells do not, but if that's all you're using them for it's not terribly difficult to get (relatively cheap, certainly cheaper than a class level) 0-ASF armors and shields. I agree- if you're using spells for your Armor and Shield bonuses anyway, the single Spellsword level isn't doing you too much good. It's usually used in a build that carries a level of a Full BAB class (Fighter, typically, given its requirements) to smooth progression into other gishing PrCs, which doesn't seem to be of use here since the poster is prioritizing maintaining spell levels in his entry over higher BAB/faster entry to Abj. Champ.

[SirAxealot]

Gotcha, I'll get rid of Spellsword then. That also explains why a bunch of the builds I've seen involve a level in Dragonslayer!

[SirAxealot]

So I'm looking at this character I've got planned out, and I'm wondering:

What sort of problems will I encounter in play? Will I have a hard time overcoming spell resistance? Will I have a hard time hitting my targets with my sword? Will I get lots of hits in but do a tiny amount of damage? Will I die the second a good hit lands?

I haven't played past level 10 or so before, so I'm not really sure how this will go at higher levels. The last thing is still the biggest concern - I've had a barbarian drop from half health to dead in one turn, and this character has less HP at max than my barb did at half. The concealment and such are gret, but eventually something ~will~ get through, and since it's likely to be an 18-20 that does, that hit is going to hurt A LOT. I know it was addressed a bit earlier but it's still a big worry.

[Averis Vol]

this is why you negate the things that would hit you; when hasted you get a natural 50% miss chance, so half the time a hit will miss outright. If this isn't enough the abjurant champion levels will get you some insane bonuses to shield (+9 to be exact) and when you pair that with greater luminescent armor, your AC will be sky high as well as your miss chance. How hard you hit is solely dependent on how you play; if you go for a shock trooper is leap attack monster, then you will probably hit like a........well, shock trooping leap attacking monster. SR is only a problem if you use your spells to not buff yourself, if you do, then you shouldn't need to worry.

[Vaz]

Good catches, thanks!

Any advice on other classes to slide in there? They can be normal casting classes, since good gish PrCs seem to be somewhat thin on the ground

I wish Bladesinger wasn't such a pain to get into, it would fit perfectly from a flavor perspective.

EDIT: Speaking of Bladesinger, would Spelldancer have anything to offer here? A couple of levels A little BAB hit, but full casting and some good abilities. And you'd only have to get Endurance, as the other prereqs would be taken for Swiftblade and Abj. Champ anyways.

No bladesinger wouldn't. Carmendine Invisible Fist Monk 2/Full Spellcaster 2 does exactly what Bladesinger 4 does, without limitations, wasted feats, useless class features, etc. Keep an eye on the Ironchef for Bladesinger, I can almost guarantee there is some Swiftblade in it somewhere.

[SirAxealot]

My previous character was a pouncebarian with 24 Str, so I know how that works, but I'm not sure how it will combine with the one-handed weapon, since Power Attack is much less effective and the Str bonus of a Swiftblade is negligible. Of course, there are the buff spells, which I suppose put stats on a similar level to some extent, but still, it doesn't seem like the power attack/shock trooper/leap attack combo will be as effective. Should I be looking to boost my damage and to-hit via Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, etc instead? Or will spells entirely take care of this?

As you may be able to tell, my group doesn't have a lot of experience with casters, and we're going for a more high-power, high-magic feel this time around, leaving us all a bit uncertain.

[SirAxealot]

No bladesinger wouldn't. Carmendine Invisible Fist Monk 2/Full Spellcaster 2 does exactly what Bladesinger 4 does, without limitations, wasted feats, useless class features, etc. Keep an eye on the Ironchef for Bladesinger, I can almost guarantee there is some Swiftblade in it somewhere.

Which version of Bladesinger are you thinking, the CW one? I was only aware of the Races of Faerun version until a little while ago.

I'll keep an eye on that.

[Vaz]

Yea, the faerun one IIRC gives bonus (fighter?) Feats to help you at least multiclass out.

[Venger]

No bladesinger wouldn't. Carmendine Invisible Fist Monk 2/Full Spellcaster 2 does exactly what Bladesinger 4 does, without limitations, wasted feats, useless class features, etc. Keep an eye on the Ironchef for Bladesinger, I can almost guarantee there is some Swiftblade in it somewhere.

iron chef thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122) and the deadline's saturday at 6pm central on saturday so you can see our tasty dishes

[SirAxealot]

Yeah, I've been reading through it. Amusing how the first few pages are almost entirely occupied by whining about how bad the CW version is, lol