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Zancloufer
2013-03-10, 11:23 AM
A lot of the base classes in Core are a bit, weak. Anyway I always liked the Paladin (First class I played in D&D, well it was 1dt ED Paladin but w/e) but it doesn't quite scale up. People even say that a Crusader or "Prestige Paladin" is better.

I'm Not questioning that, I just think the Paladin was on the edge of being decent. So here's my buff, doesn't change the Paladin's Flavour or abilities, just makes them more relevant.

Table 1 : The Paladin
{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Aura of good, Detect evil, Smite evil
2 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 3 | Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 4 | Turn Undead
5 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 4 | Special Mount, Smite Evil 2x
6 | 6\1 | 5 | 2 | 5 | Touch of Vitality
7 | 7\2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | Protection From Evil
8 | 8\3 | 6 | 2 | 6 |Smite Evil 3x
9 | 9\4 | 6 | 3 | 6 | Mettle
10 | 10\5 | 7 | 3 | 7 | Swift Spell Like Ability
11 | 11\6\1 | 7 | 3 | 7 | Smite Evil 4x
12 | 12\7\2 | 8 | 4 | 8 | Supreme Smite
13 | 13\8\3 | 8 | 4 | 8 | Spell Resistance
14 | 14\9\4 | 9 | 4 | 9 | Smite Evil 5x
15 | 15\10\5 | 9 |5 | 9 | Divine Transparency
16 | 16\11\6\1 | 10 | 5 | 10 | Planar Turning
17 | 17\12\7\2 | 11 | 5 | 10 | Smite Evil 6x
18 | 18\13\8\3 | 11 | 6 | 11 |
19 | 19\14\9\4 | 11 | 6 | 11 |
20 | 20\15\10\5 | 12 | 6 | 12 | Smite Evil 7x
[/table]
Hit Dice: d10
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields.

Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Smite Evil (Su)
Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that encounter.
At 4th level, and at every four levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per encounter at 20th level.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus × 3. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Aura of Courage (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 untyped bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. The Paladin also gains a +4 untyped bonus to resisting poisons
.
Turn Undead (Su)
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a if she was a cleric of equal level to her Paladin level.

Spells
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list.
To cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin Spells. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. The paladin gains access to one domain's spells and granted powers, of which she must choose by third level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a paladin need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. She does not have to decide ahead of time which spells she’ll cast.

For the first two levels, a paladin has no caster level. At 3rd level and higher, her caster level is her paladin level.
Table 2 : Paladin Spells Per Day
{table=head] Level | 0 | 1 |2 | 3 | 4 | 5
3 | 1 | 0 | - | - | - | - |
4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | - | - | - |
5 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - |
6 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | - |
7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - |
8 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | - |
9 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - |
10 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
11 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
12 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
13 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 |
14 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 |
15 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 |
16 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 |
17 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 |
18 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 |
19 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 |
20 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 |
[/table]
Paladin Spells Known
0-Level Paladin Spells
Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Inflict Minor Wounds: Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
1st-Level Paladin Spells
Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and +1 on saves against fear.
Bless Water: Makes holy water.
Bless Weapon: Weapon strikes true against evil foes.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Protection from Chaos/Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
2nd-Level Paladin Spells
Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, or lawful.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Consecrate: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Continual Flame: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Shield Other : You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.
3rd-Level Paladin Spells
Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
Glyph of Warding: Inscription harms those who pass it.
Heal Mount: As heal on warhorse or other special mount.
Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Circle against Chaos: As protection from chaos, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Evil: As protection from evil, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Meld into Stone: You and your gear merge with stone.
Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies -1 penalty.
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
4th-Level Paladin Spells
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dispel Chaos: +4 bonus against attacks by chaotic creatures.
Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Holy Sword: Weapon becomes +5, deals +2d6 damage against evil.
Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Planar Ally, Lesser: Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Restoration: Restores level and ability score drains.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels
Tongues: Speak any language.
5th-Level Paladin Spells
Atonement: Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/ level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Forbiddance: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Glyph of Warding, Greater: As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 5th-level spell.
Hallow: Designates location as holy.
Plane Shift: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Planar Ally: As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Raise Dead: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Undeath to Death: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.

Design Note:
The Paladin spell list here is probably incomplete. I just went through Core for the time being. With Complete Divine and other splat books with decent divine spell counts more spells COULD be added. I think knowing the entire list every day is a bit too much but IDK exactly how to limit it. Perhaps something related to level and Charisma Mod that they can choose to have ready each day?

Special Mount (Sp)
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.
Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for one week or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, unless the mount is somehow returned from the dead.

Touch of Vitality (Sp)
At 6th level, a paladin can remedy a variety of aliments by using up some of her Lay on Hands power. For every 5 points used up she can heal 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, sicken or fatigued effect. For every 10 points of healing expanded the Paladin can remove the poisoned, exhausted, stunned, or nauseated effect. For every 15 points she can remove the diseased, blinded, deafened, stunned, or an negative level. She can combine all these effect along with normal healing as long as it's on a single target.

Protection From Evil (Su)
Starting at 7th level the Paladin is constantly under the effect of a protection from evil spell. At level 13 this becomes a magic circle against evil radiating from the Paladin.

Mettle (Ex)
The Paladin can resist magical attacks more than most others. If she succeeds a saving throw against a Fortitude or Will that would normally produce an effect on a successful save (Will half or Fortitude partial) you instead ignore that effect.

Swift Spell Like Ability (Su)
Starting at 10th level the Paladin can using any of her SLAs (Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Summon Mount) as a Swift action once per day per Charisma modifier. IE: A Paladin with 20 Charisma can make up to five of her SLAs a swift action per day.

Supreme Smite (Su)
When ever a Paladin successfully Smites Evil, all her damage is considered Divine for that attack is considered any damage type/alignment for the sake of overcoming DR and ignores concealment and miss chance, if the target of the smite is indeed evil.

Spell Resistance
Starting at level 13 the Paladin gains a SR equal to 13+her Paladin level. Unlike spell resistance gained from other sources, the paladin can automatically choose to waive her resistance without taking an action whenever she would be affected by a spell, so long as she is conscious. When she is unconscious, her spell resistance does not block harmless spells (such as healing spells), but will interfere with any other spells that would affect her.

Divine Transparency
At 15th level the Paladin combines her Smite Evil and Turn Undead pools. She may use her Smite Evil attempts to cover for turning attempts (or special abilities that use turn attempts to power them) and use Turn Undead attempts to fuel a Smite Evil.

Planar Turning (Su)
Starting at 16th level the Paladin can use her Turn Undead attempts to turn outsiders. This ability works with any outsider than is not good aligned, or has the Good subtype. The paladin rolls to see the highest level outsider she can turn and how many HD she can effect. Any outsider who has less that 2/3rds the HD the Paladin is banished, other wise they flee and/or cower for the next 10 rounds. There is no save allowed to resist this ability.

Code of Conduct[/B] Do we really need this here again?
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

The Paladin’s Mount
The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well. Starting at 11th level the Paladin can choose a good aligned magical beast as her mount instead.

A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

{table=head] Paladin Level | Nat Armour Bonus |Str Adj | Int Adj | Special Abilities
5th-7th | 4 | 1 | 2 | Empathic link, Improved Evasion, Share spells, Share saving throws
8th-10th | 6 | 2 | 3 | Improved Speed
11th-14th | 8 | 3 | 4 | Command Creatures of it's Kind
15th-18th | 10 | 4 | 5 | Spell Resistance
19th-20th | 12 | 6 | 7 |
[/table]



Paladin’s Mount Basics
Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

Mount HD
The Paladin's Mount gas a number of eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice equal to the Paladin's level. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Natural Armor Adj.
The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.

Str Adj.
Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.

Int Adj.
Add this figure to the mount’s Intelligence score.

Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically.
Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.
Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

Share Spells
At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount.
The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).

Share Saving Throws
For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

Improved Speed (Ex)
The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.

Command (Sp)
Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + ½ paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

Spell Resistance (Ex)
A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 12. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.

Some Notes now:
Mount scales better with the Paladin. Tempted to Just say it's HD = Paladin's -1 or something though tbh. The current adjustment works well for most mounts except the shark (Epic Level mount by level 19 then). Make Smite Per encounter and Remove Disease per Day. Honestly Per Week powers have to be OP or they suck and making Smite per encounter help's the Paladin's Damage. Making Casting based off Cha and 4+int Skill points makes her less MAD. Buffed the casting a little with some nice higher level spells. Might be a bit powerful and numerous with a good domain choice. However I stuck to mostly support spells so even if they can throw almost as many spells as a cleric can they have a lot less variety.

Overall I think it's a decent Power bump without really changing how the class plays.

Comments? Concerns? Seals of Approval?

bobthe6th
2013-03-10, 11:38 AM
Most of this is the general idea of a paladin fix, but a few points.

Still heavily frontloaded. it gets every ability it really cares about level 1-5, setting up for an easy hop into a prc.

Half caster is even better, Like a bard.

Wait, why ref and will, not will and fort?

Needs, mettle and SR at higher levels.

Touch of vitality(dragon shaman) as part of lay on hands works better then a remove diseases SLA.

Also this lacks stuff at higher levels, except smite. If casting is the only abilaty, they will Prc out to get full casting and actual abilities.

I don't see why mount HD=pally HD is a bad thing.

Zancloufer
2013-03-11, 11:15 AM
Most of this is the general idea of a paladin fix, but a few points.

Still heavily frontloaded. it gets every ability it really cares about level 1-5, setting up for an easy hop into a prc.

It might be a bit front loaded, but with ~2/3rds casting, a proper scaling Mount (essentially an animal companion) and a solid Chassis PRcing out might not net you as much as you think. Anything based around full (or even half) casting is going to have a weaker chassis AND loose the extra smite/mount/Healing progression. Would have to have some nifty abilities to compensate for that.



Half caster is even better, Like a bard.


I would compare this Paladin's casting more to a Duskblade : Full BaB high HP class with a large number of spells, but a more limited list. It might have more spells known, but the Duskblade still have more spells per day.



Wait, why ref and will, not will and fort?

That was an error. If you notice Ref and Fort swap progressions half way though - making tables can be annoying sometimes on this forum.



Needs, mettle and SR at higher levels.

Not a BAD idea, but perhaps a more specific/unique ability?



Touch of vitality(dragon shaman) as part of lay on hands works better then a remove diseases SLA.


So remove the Cure Disease SLA, but increase Lay on Hands power and let you sped 3-6 extra points to cure Diseases/Poisons?



Also this lacks stuff at higher levels, except smite. If casting is the only abilaty, they will Prc out to get full casting and actual abilities.

See above about PRcing out.
Also, what can be added later the.



I don't see why mount HD=pally HD is a bad thing.

Didn't thin it was, as I said I though it might be a better idea instead of getting +HD every few levels.

Zancloufer
2013-03-12, 11:49 AM
Okay - Update with the Mount = Pally HD, Touch of Vitality and some useful class features later on in the class, so it's not as front heavy.

Zancloufer
2013-04-13, 05:34 PM
Been almost a month - maybe some new input.

Also, for Paladins of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter any ideas for change in the ACFs?

bobthe6th
2013-04-13, 06:30 PM
It might be a bit front loaded, but with ~2/3rds casting, a proper scaling Mount (essentially an animal companion) and a solid Chassis PRcing out might not net you as much as you think. Anything based around full (or even half) casting is going to have a weaker chassis AND loose the extra smite/mount/Healing progression. Would have to have some nifty abilities to compensate for that.

Their are Prcs that continue animal companion/mount/whatever, and the spell casting can be gleened from a full casting prc... if they realy want it.



Not a BAD idea, but perhaps a more specific/unique ability?


Mettel(Ex):At 7rd level and higher, a Paladin can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping paladin does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Undying faith(Ex): A paladin believes so strongly that he can overcome mere misfortune. At 16th level he no longer automaticly fails saving throws on a natural one. He can still fail if the save is to low.

Gift of light(Su): At 4th level, higher powers grant the paladin some level of protection. He gains SR equal to 5+his paladin HD+1/2 any other HD. At 9th, 13th, and 19th level this SR increases by +5.



So remove the Cure Disease SLA, but increase Lay on Hands power and let you sped 3-6 extra points to cure Diseases/Poisons?


Just steal the feature from dragon shaman(PHBII) wholesale. It is better balanced, and makes it a semi functional healer.

Zancloufer
2013-04-14, 11:18 AM
I have updated the first post with some new powers later on. Did add a "Touch of Vitality" but it's a bit different than the Dragon Shaman's. A little less versatile but A LOT more powerful, plus the Paladin does have spells to help back up her healing. Could increase the range of things it can do at higher levels.

Adding Mettle at level 13 and Undying Resolve (not failing on a 1) around 9 could work. IDK about the Spell resistance. Perhaps adding on around 16 that equals 13-15+Paladin Level might work (the current one you suggested seems a bit powerful, would result in SR 40 by level 20.

bobthe6th
2013-04-14, 12:09 PM
...At level 20. Level 20 is never the balance point. Also, the class needs a cap stone. Badly. Like a fixed version of the monk ability, that makes the paladin a outsider with the lawful and good subtype.

mettel is a level 3 ability... 13 is rather high.

Also, your touch of vitality is broken. Just use the existent ability, it won't bite. I would suggest a third and forth add on abilities, adding another 100% to the pool and offering more options. Like a true resurrection for 100 points or something, but only within a minute of death.

also, idea, protection for chaos/Evil that becomes circle, with the bonuses and aura radius scaling. Make the SR part of that, and only apply it against evil/chaotic casters and spells with the evil/chaotic tag.


Also, I always wondered... why lower the paladins turning level? Is it really that big of a deal?

Zancloufer
2013-04-14, 12:50 PM
Okay, took the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vit and added as an upgrade to Lay on Hands at level 6. Added Mettle at level 7, which is half way between 3 (Hex Blade) and 13 (Crusader) It's also a 'dead level'

Added Scaling SR that isn't a trap.

Also the reduced Turn undead is from 1st Ed D&D. I don't want the Paladin to be quite as good as the Cleric in Divine magic, as that's the only class feature Cleric's get, and outside of caster/turn Undead level that isn't worse than the Paladin (Worse Saves/BAB/HP/Skills/Class Features).

bobthe6th
2013-04-14, 01:00 PM
Also the reduced Turn undead is from 1st Ed D&D.


So... like 30 years ago now? Whateves... but it might be fun to give them better turning as their casting is orders of magnitude less amazing. Like planer turning against evil/chaos, or turn villain against all evil creatures.


I don't want the Paladin to be quite as good as the Cleric in Divine magic, as that's the only class feature Cleric's get, and outside of caster/turn Undead level that isn't worse than the Paladin (Worse Saves/BAB/HP/Skills/Class Features).

Clerics class features are called prestige classes. Most of them give full casting progressions, and a feature per level. It is a poorly designed class, but it isn't weaker then this paladin.

Zancloufer
2013-04-20, 09:57 AM
So... like 30 years ago now? Whateves... but it might be fun to give them better turning as their casting is orders of magnitude less amazing. Like planer turning against evil/chaos, or turn villain against all evil creatures.

Could always make Planar Turning a non-epic feat. Some of those 'epic' feats are a bit weak especially compared to the non-epic feats many splat books introduced.

Anyway made Turn-undead level = Paladin level. Still don;t get it until level 4 but it's not gimped once you get it (probably better with all the Paladin's Charisma synergy tbh).


Clerics class features are called prestige classes. Most of them give full casting progressions, and a feature per level. It is a poorly designed class, but it isn't weaker then this paladin.

Good point.


Updated the top with some typo fixes and better wording for a few abilities. Not that I don't appreciate the constructive Criticism, but could someone in addition to bobthe6th make some comments here? IDK if you don't have anything to say other than what new/updated class features you like, positive feedback is still feedback.

GunbladeKnight
2013-04-20, 02:31 PM
Skill Points at 1st Level
Nice having more skill points and a bigger list. Also, you didn't give their hit die. I'm assuming d10, but I would suggest d12.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
If one class should have tower shield proficiency, it should be the paladin.


Aura of Good (Ex)
This ability doesn't really come into play all that often.


Detect Evil (Sp)
Always disliked at-will detect plot device. Designers probably added it so players wouldn't feel they wasted their smite evils.


Smite Evil (Su)
In the ability, you state that it is per encounter, but if it is used against a non-evil creature it is expended for the day. Can you use it with each attack in a full attack? Also, the damage is negligible at early levels, perhaps 5 + paladin level?


Divine Grace (Su)
This is almost too good to have this early, making the paladin a 2 level dip class. Maybe move it back to 6th level?


Lay on Hands (Su)
Hmm... I almost wonder if this eventually becomes too much healing at later levels...


Aura of Courage (Su)
Untyped bonuses are nice because they stack with anything, but it would be more thematic for it to be either a morale or sacred bonus.


Divine Health (Ex)
Bonus against poisons make this ability actually useful.


Turn Undead (Su)
Yay for it being equal to paladin level, making it usable instead of simply powering divine or devotion feats.


Spells
I always liked limited list known casters. Making it based on CHA is really helpful, as well as making their caster level equal to their paladin level. Maybe give them advanced learning when they gain a new spell level? Also, when there is a "0" on the spells per day list, then the paladin can use bonus spells for that level by RAW. So a paladin with a 20 CHA could use 5th level spells as early as level three with your table.


Special Mount (Sp)
2 hours per day is better, but I'd still use an ACF.


Touch of Vitality (Sp)
Much better than the remove disease.


Protection From Evil
You don't give a type for this ability. I'm assuming Su.


Mettle
Why does it not work while sleeping? There are specific spells (or at least one) that target sleeping characters. Also, is this Ex or Su?


Swift Spell Like Ability (Su)
The only SLA you have are detect evil, special mount, and touch of vitality (not LoH), making this almost useless other than summoning your mount.


Supreme Smite (Su)
Why not ignore all DR?


Spell Resistance
13 seems like an odd amount for base spell resistance. Like the ability to suppress it for individual spells, which should be standard.


Divine Transparency
I would be cautious about this, as it likely means they will simply use smite attempts to power divine or devotion feats now.


Extra Smiting
This is useless for smiting by this time (they already have enough for each encounter).


Code of Conduct
What if the paladin is ordered by legitimate authority to work with an evil character? I would say that the paladin shouldn't tolerate evil acts from their associates.


The Paladin’s Mount
Really needs flight at some point.

Overall I would say it is a minor boost. Additional skill points and skills, smites per encounter, touch of vitality, a few 5th level spells, and caster level equal to their level are all nice. I would still only use this as a dip class, though.

Zancloufer
2013-04-20, 03:39 PM
Nice having more skill points and a bigger list. Also, you didn't give their hit die. I'm assuming d10, but I would suggest d12.



Meant d10. d12 seems a BIT high . . .



If one class should have tower shield proficiency, it should be the paladin.


Added that.



This ability doesn't really come into play all that often.


I think it's more of a "I'm a Paladin B@&($ !" sotra thing. Let the legions of evil sense your presence or something. Saw no reason to remove it.



Always disliked at-will detect plot device. Designers probably added it so players wouldn't feel they wasted their smite evils.


Detect Evil can be fooled by quite a few level 2-3 spells. If someone is evil and wants to hide it it's like maybe a 5K for the BBEG to have his custom item of anti-detect evil or whatever it's called.



In the ability, you state that it is per encounter, but if it is used against a non-evil creature it is expended for the day. Can you use it with each attack in a full attack? Also, the damage is negligible at early levels, perhaps 5 + paladin level?


Typo - fixed. Also while the damage at low levels is Meh, having the +cha to hit is more of a boon at the lower levels where +3-5 to hit makes a big difference.



This is almost too good to have this early, making the paladin a 2 level dip class. Maybe move it back to 6th level?


It's always been at level two. Not nerfing the Paladin just to get at dippers.



Hmm... I almost wonder if this eventually becomes too much healing at later levels...


If you Pump Cha to ~28 (possible) that's about 540 points at level 20. Mind you with touch of Vitality that can be burned up quick. Someone got poisoned and whacked for max ability damage? That's 50-70 points used up to cure that right there.



Untyped bonuses are nice because they stack with anything, but it would be more thematic for it to be either a morale or sacred bonus.


Morale bonuses are rather common. Though Sacred sounds like it might work . . .



Bonus against poisons make this ability actually useful.


Poisons are a bit more common




I always liked limited list known casters. Making it based on CHA is really helpful, as well as making their caster level equal to their paladin level. Maybe give them advanced learning when they gain a new spell level? Also, when there is a "0" on the spells per day list, then the paladin can use bonus spells for that level by RAW. So a paladin with a 20 CHA could use 5th level spells as early as level three with your table.


That I didn't realize at first. It's because of silly typos like that I need people to point out for me.



2 hours per day is better, but I'd still use an ACF.


10 Hours when you FIRST get it. By level 8 it lasts longer than you'll probably be adventuring for. Also it's been buffed further down, essentially an animal companion is strength.



Much better than the remove disease.


Not to mention the 1/week thing. I mean in 1st Ed D&D where identifying Magic items took 8 hours and monsters you gating in tried to murder you it wasn't as bad.
Bit more powerful than touch of Vitality for the Dragon Shaman iirc but, eh.



You don't give a type for this ability. I'm assuming Su.


Yes and fixed. Was correct on the copy on my HD oddly enough.



Why does it not work while sleeping? There are specific spells (or at least one) that target sleeping characters. Also, is this Ex or Su?


Ex, and fixed. IDK why that last line was even there,



The only SLA you have are detect evil, special mount, and touch of vitality (not LoH), making this almost useless other than summoning your mount.


Specifically mentioned that Lay On Hands is something it can be used with (whether or not it's a 'SLA' It's considered one for this ability).



Why not ignore all DR?


Corrected. Ignores more DR and stuff now.



13 seems like an odd amount for base spell resistance. Like the ability to suppress it for individual spells, which should be standard.


Normal SR is a trap. Also 13+ level is just because the 11+ level assumes equal level caster with no +SR or +Caster level has a 50% chance of successes. Find in reality it needs to be a bit higher to get a reasonable SR.



I would be cautious about this, as it likely means they will simply use smite attempts to power divine or devotion feats now.


Possibly. Though with Smite's Ignoring most special defences at this point it's still useful. Now if your raiding the temple of the indifferent neutral by-standards those smite abilities have a nice use.



This is useless for smiting by this time (they already have enough for each encounter).


Just added something there for that time. Thinking of just replacing it with Planar Turning (Evil aligned Outsiders, or Outsiders with Evil Sub-type get fear/banishment [no save] if they get 'turned').



What if the paladin is ordered by legitimate authority to work with an evil character? I would say that the paladin shouldn't tolerate evil acts from their associates.


Yeah, it could use a fix. Should look into that . .



Really needs flight at some point.


Allow the mount to be exchanged/upgraded to a magical beast at some point? A high level Paladin having a Pegasus as a mount sounds kinda cool.



Overall I would say it is a minor boost. Additional skill points and skills, smites per encounter, touch of vitality, a few 5th level spells, and caster level equal to their level are all nice. I would still only use this as a dip class, though.

Well, I pretty much Souped up EVERYTHING (except for BAB, HD and Saves). I didn't want to change it THAT much, but more so drag it up from ~Tier 5 (maybe low 4) up to lower tier 3. Also you should look closely at the spell casting. It's nothing to sneeze at. With the Right domain (Which one grants teleport again?) you could have teleporting Paladins. I think the improved spell-casting alone is a noticeable power up, but it's NOT powerful enough to warrant Prcing out to something with full casting due to the powerful chassis and decent class powers.

I mean people play Monk 20 and Fighter 20 as builds. They will really SUCK unless they're really good but people still have fun. I just was building a Paladin power up. Something that still plays like a Paladin but is much more versatile. Compared to non-full casters out there I thought this wasn't half bad.

Zancloufer
2013-05-03, 12:07 PM
Final update (now that the forums are back up) with Planar Turning added. Other than rewriting the Code of Conduct and maybe tweaking spells known I think this done.

Unless anyone sees any problems/typos/errors here?