Help with a char with out access to magic items

[Warior4356]

Basicly my dm has been favoring the new players even though i have been with the group longer long story shrot every mgaic item we find has been talypred to the new players an arrow ranger and a barbarian nothing for a magic user at all i need a wizard/ sorc build that doesent need magic items that cant be bought with a small amount of money he is stingy also no monks not sure why but he hates monks so here is the challenge
14 level
15000 in items
No monks/ no evil

This is my first post if this is in any way agaist giant in the playground rules tell me i will remove it

[Twilightwyrm]

So I should start by saying that trying to "get revenge" on your DM, as a rule, doesn't end well. You "making them sorry" doesn't tend to result in them being made sorry, just resentful, which in turn causes them to attempt to make you "sorry". I, like many of the people here, suggest that, if you have a problem with the way the DM is handling the game, to approach them before or after the session and have an honest talk about what is bugging you, and if some sort of compromise or change can be made.
Also, as a note in your case, I really wouldn't take what the DM is doing personally. Unless you are conclusively sure the DM is just being a jerk, you might do well to entertain the notion that the DM is just trying to make sure the new players have fun so they keep coming back to the game. Granted the DM should, if they are attempting to give more stuff to make things more fun, be doing so more or less equally, but sometimes it can be easy to focus on the new people, and take for granted a little bit that the older players will continue to be entertained. So I would give your DM the benefit of the doubt, and see if simply bringing up your concerns will help solve the issue.

[ArcturusV]

Well... as a wizard most of your power comes not from your items, but from your spell list anyway. So it's not all that hard, what you're asking. And I'm sure one of the resident wizard experts will be by shortly to toss you a link to one of the standard guides.

The thing I'd mention is... well... really consider if you want to do that. As the old song goes, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't piss in the wind..." when you start getting into a Sticking It to the DM mode... it can escalate pretty damned quickly. And no matter how optimized your build in, no matter what tricks you have? The DM is gonna win. Just... no. You can't "beat" him at that. So it's not a good idea to antagonize the DM or try to purposefully break a game like that.

The better option would to be just pulling him aside, say "Hey... I know you want to get the newbies revved up and you're helping them out... but I'm feeling some neglect here. Show my character some lovin' as well, okay?" Which is honestly your best shot at fixing it.

[Duke Arioch]

No offense, but I don't think you are going the right way with this. Why not just talk to your DM and try to express your concerns. In years of playing DnD, one thing I found out is that most DM-player clashes can be rectified with 5 sentences outside the table, or even in front of group.
Maybe he thinks that you as a seasoned DnD player can pull through more easily than other members of the group. Or maybe he is putting a challenge in front of you.
If you go your way, you will either make him angry or your group angry. And that is not a good thing IMHO. And remember that he is a DM. You can NEVER pull anything off if he vetoes it. And he can.

[warmachine]

A Wizard doesn't need much in magic items because he has spells, especially for an experienced player like you. Indeed, the DM should be asking you not to outshine the new players.

Or to paraphrase an optimisation guide, let the mortals have their victories, and their magic items, for you are a god and the fate of the campaign rests in your hands.

[Ganorenas]

I've seen this before, so I'm sure you are within the rules...

You don't need to make a powerful character to get back at your DM, I DM often and would prefer (were I in his/her shoes) that you spoke with me about your unhappiness with how it is going.
As a player, I see it happen when the others are new to keep them coming or the DM caters to whomever whines, assuming the rest of us are content (which is sometimes the case, again just let them know how you feel).

Ok, the best way, from experience, is not to be over powered and destroy everything, this can make situations where you are mega nerfed or the party dies while you stand because you are to well built for them to survive what challenges you.
If you want the above, play a Mailman, google will be your answer, massive damage every round, wipe the floor. At level 15, you will be set for everything.

Now, I've found the best way to be annoying is to take forever to do anything. You'll be ignored, or more likely you will actually lower the amount of fun everyone can have due to how slow you make the game... Which could get your point across?
You'd want massive amounts of minions for a real reason, or just take forever to pick a spell to use, necromancers work well for both, just work on having a lot of Zombie or Skeletons, as many as possible, and have them do their turns separately.

The second option isn't really a build, but a Wizard15 or a True Necro or a Cleric15 can easily do what you need.

But, honestly, you should just sit with your DM and talk about it.

[Warior4356]

Ok thank you but i dont want to cause disrutptions im just tring to make an effective charectar and witha paladin that will die soon at this rate i have a +1 hoy warhammer
The barb has a great sword that does 5 d6 and he crits on a 16-20
The archer has a +25/20/15 attack bonus
I going to die because he is making fights effective at thier power level and im just screwed so when i get killed i just want to make a charectar that doesent depent on getting good loot to be effective and thanks again
But yea im not trying to ruin anyones fun im just trying to survie as what shuld be the most defencive charecatar in the party

Edit: 8 d6

[icefractal]

In terms of items and build, you don't need a lot. The difference between a Wizard that's barely keeping above water and one that's ruling everything with an iron fist is pretty much down to spell selection.

[Warior4356]

So would you recomend wizard or socerer?

[JusticeZero]

That sounds pretty Monty Haul to me. i'd say "If everyone is having fun.." but it sounds as though you aren't. You can't fix it by your own action, you fix it by communicating with the rest of the group that you are feeling like you are punching under your weight because of the distribution of what's being given out, and trying to get people to help even things out more. It shouldn't be about the treasure. And yeah, I don't care for monks a lot of the time - not because they're overpowered but because they usually don't fit in very well with the rest of the game. I'm trying to figure out where cities are and internal politics and suddenly go "wait, I have to figure out where to put a shaolin monastery around here somewhere too? how am I going to explain THAT?"

[Warior4356]

Well we are playing forgotton realms

[jywu98]

If you're a relatively new player, don't pick the wizard. You're not gonna have fun with it.

[Warior4356]

Im not my dm is favoring the new players with magic itmes so im looking for a charectar that does not need them for the most part

[JusticeZero]

Have you spoken to everyone about this yet? What did they say?

Anyways, a wizard can work, in part because they can make their own darned magic items and because they don't need all that many of them to be effective. The magic items a wizard usually needs are things like wands and scrolls and such, for utility spells that they want to have a bunch of on the side. "Gee, I didn't think I would need Tongues today - but it's a good thing I have a scroll of it that i made in my spare time for just such an occasion." They can make those on their own pretty easily.

[Warior4356]

Either way can i get a link to broken sorc/wiz build

[tyckspoon]

That sounds pretty Monty Haul to me. "

At high levels, D&D is inherently and deliberately Monty Haul-ish, especially compared to the expectations of older editions and people whose tastes run low-magic. It's quite normal for a level 14 character to have a lot of magic junk.


So would you recomend wizard or socerer?

Wizard if you can use some of the self-sufficiency options (an Eidetic Collegiate Elven Generalist gets 5 automatic levelup spells/level and records them all in his head, for example. That's a feat, a racial substitution/ACF set, and a Dragon Magazine feature that swaps out your Familiar.) If you can't, it sounds like you'd probably have some trouble getting scrolls or otherwise expanding your spell repertoire, so Sorcerer might be a more reliable solution.

[JusticeZero]

At high levels, D&D is inherently and deliberately Monty Haul-ish, especially compared to the expectations of older editions and people whose tastes run low-magic. It's quite normal for a level 14 character to have a lot of magic junk..
Point taken. I'm specifically going for an E6 game because of too many experiences of GM's freaking out at the amount of craziness that a character close to level 10 can pull out, usually exacerbated by wide disparities between effectiveness of different characters at the table by that point.

[icefractal]

So would you recomend wizard or socerer?Personally, Wizard, but there are arguments for either.

15K's not a lot for items, admittedly. You can only get a Headband of Int +2, so your save DCs won't be great. Here's some spells (Core) that should work with that. If you have access to other books like the Spell Compendium, there are a lot more. This is assuming 3.5E, by the way - if this is a Pathfinder game, some of these should be changed.

1st
Mage Armor. Usually obsolete due to items, but not with only 15K.
Silent Image. Highly useful if you're creative (and the DM's not a **** about it), and they only get a save when they interact with it.
Reduce Person. If you're already small (Gnome, for instance), this will shrink you to Tiny, for better defense and stealth skills.

2nd
Scorching Ray. No saving throw, good damage for a 2nd level spell.
Web. Even if they make the save, they move very slowly.
Mirror Image. Good defensive spell.

3rd
Phantom Steed. Forget Fly, this thing will let you (or anyone) fly around at 240' speed for 14 hours.
Explosive Runes. Don't use them in battle, use them during your downtime. In a few days, you can have a book full of these. When you want to make a quick trap or demolish something, tear out a page and place it like C4.
Shrink Item. Shrink a mass of barbed wire and caltrops. Instant hazard. Shrink heavy things and drop them on people from above. Shrink backup equipment, sew it into your clothes. Many uses.
Major Image. Like Silent image, but covers things that one can't do.
Haste. Ok, your team-mates may kick enough ass on their own, but they'll really love you for casting this.
Ray of Exhaustion. Still fatigues on a save, which can ruin a charging-based foe's day.
Tiny Hut. Weird choice, but since you need more defense, this gives you total concealment (but you can see just fine) as long as you cast it in a location foes can't easily get to. The archer will benefit as well.

4th
Solid Fog - No save, just suck.
Scrying - Everyone likes information, and now you have it.
Charm Monster - Don't try to use it in combat, find some tough but weak willed creatures and charm them. Instant bodyguards. If they're trolls, they won't mind most forms of danger either.
Resilient Sphere - Many tough monsters have relatively poor reflex saves. And you can use it as an emergency defense for yourself.
Stone Shape - In the right circumstances, can be very useful. Make doors fall out of frames, trap peoples' feet, etc.
Enervation - Another spell with no save, and it hurts pretty much anything.
Minor Creation. Not only can this make whatever random objects you want (use Darkwood for normally metal objects), it can make a crap-ton of plant-based poison - like Black Lotus.

5th
Teleport. Obviously.
Wall of Stone. More no-save crowd control.
Prying Eyes. Very nice scouting spell.
Dominate Person. Again, not so much for combat as for building up a personal squad. KO foe, use this on them repeatedly until it works, profit.
Wall of Force. No matter how strong the monster is, this isn't breaking.
Mirage Arcana - This one can actually be really brutal (make people think that water is air, watch as they all drown, and they can't find you because you're standing in a hallway that appears not to exist), but only if you're the one picking the battlefield.
Magic Jar - Another one that's good with the right preparation. Get a tough creature, prepare it ahead of time, and make the switch before entering the danger zone.
Telekinesis - Throw nets covered in poison. Or green slime. Or anything else nasty that just requires a touch attack.

6th
Acid Fog - No save, just take lots of acid damage
Greater Dispel Magic - You're the only one who can do it
Permanent Image - Just for fun.

7th
Mage's Magnificent Mansion - Not only for resting, but is an instant room to retreat into that you can cast spells out of, but no foes are allowed to enter.
Greater Scrying - No more delay when scrying, lasts longer.
Reverse Gravity - Really screws up foes that can't fly.
Waves of Exhaustion - No save, area, ruins melee foes' day.

Depending on the foes you face, this may be plenty to be effective in combat. If not, you may want to focus on the other things spells can do that the other characters can't. If you're the one in control of information, transportation, and preparation, then you're a key part of the team even if you never lift a finger in combat.

[warmachine]

What icefractal writes is useful. I'd favour a +2 CON enhancement as well. I'll just add that at 14th level, mages are superhuman and the campaign rests on far more than dealing damage in combat. Let the other PCs have the damage dealing items, you're Comprehend Languaging those stolen orders written in a foreign language, you're Greater Teleporting across the world to intercept the stolen artifact, you're Charm Personing the enemy agent into revealing information, you're Flying the group to the top of the tower, you're scouting the dungeon with Arcane Eye, you're locking half the enemy out of the battle with Wall of Force.

Who cares how much damage they can deal, you've got world changing events to deal with.

[nedz]

Either way can i get a link to broken sorc/wiz build

Straight Wizard or Straight Sorcerer would do it at that level.

Now Wizard > Sorcerer, but it's also more work.

Some Handbooks which may help
Solo's Sorcerer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487)
Sorcerer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7229)
Wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12896)
God Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570)
Batman Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2716)

YMMV with some of these, but they cover most of the bases.