Help me optimize a arcane caster

[Warior4356]

Can the geniuses at giantin the play ground help me break a arcane caster with out being able to spend any where close to an on level amount of money

[Sgt. Cookie]

Mailman Build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)

All there is to it.

[jywu98]

Seems like you're still trying to make your DM sorry. Don't.

[Warior4356]

Anything besisdes mail man?

[jywu98]

Come on, don't be a prick. Talk things over with your DM and sort things out. This is not the route you want to go.

[Warior4356]

Compared to the party no ifs and or buts my char is going to die so im making a new one now

[Jack_Simth]

Compared to the party no ifs and or buts my char is going to die so im making a new one nowSignificantly behind on the power curve, eh?

Well, in that case... what's your starting level? With a little work, Sorcerers can make pretty good use of the Planar Binding line.

[jywu98]

Why "break" it then? Just build a fairly optimized sorcerer and be done with it. Any splatbook restrictions?

[zeboss]

Seems like you're still trying to make your DM sorry. Don't.

If Giantitp had a like button...

[Sgt. Cookie]

Anything besisdes mail man?

Yes and No.

Yes, most of what makes a Wizard broken, the Sorcerer can do.

No, a single Sorcerer can only do a limited number of the broken things that a Wizard can do.

[JusticeZero]

"Broken" is the wrong word. All i've heard is "For whatever reason, I do not get the same magic items that the rest of the party does," (which you really need to talk to people about first..) "..and I want a build that is effective enough to be a good team member without having to find awesome treasure."

I'd also be curious as to what you think is "effective". There's a lot of builds that are really effective not because THEY are dishing out the huge damage but because they muck up the enemy and buff the party through the moon.

[Gnome Alone]

Sure can!

Cast Flesh to Stone, then Shrink Item, then stomp on him a bunch.

Ta-da. You broke a sorcerer.

[Warior4356]

My problem is that our dm has 2 real life friends that he is helping to like the game so they have charecatrs that do about 80% of all the fighting be pcause they are way beyond level

[Raven777]

The following spell guide is for Pathfinder, but it presents a good basis on what basic spells are good and why : A Quick Guide to Sorcerer Spell Selection (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17S3pYy0wk8uUTJ3RFaIDk5vz29WYmOXuhWiOKHO2E_M/edit#heading=h.l4dhw7c1mzqd).

Having a load-out of spells that are both versatile and powerful will allow your sorcerer to shine in pretty much all situations.

As for thoroughly breaking the class... I have no idea. The Summon Monster line can really make you a situation solving Swiss army knife with the SLAs of your minions, though, allowing you to steal some of the spot light back. They'll also give you as a player more things to do on your own turn through commanding your critters.

Same for transmutation and its polymorph tricks. Sapeshift into something awesome and go to town. Accept to cast it on the other players if they promise to be nice.

[Emperor Tippy]

Can the geniuses at giantin the play ground help me break a sorcerer

Yes. Will we? Maybe.

For one you really need to give a lot more detail. Level? Sources allowed? Play-style? Type of campaign? Party?

Those are just the most basic questions.

[ericgrau]

What level are you and what level is your party? If your party is much higher level than you, then your best bet are control spells, especially those that have no save or work well even on a passed save. Such as web, sleet storm, solid fog, empowered ray of enfeeblement, wall of force, etc. Hmm just that list right there could make you do well. Plus as 2nd priority after those: mage armor, false life, invisibility, greater magic weapon, dimension door, enervation and greater invisibility. For feats go point blank shot, precise shot and empower spell (also works well on enervation, false life and magic missile later on). Get 1 or 2 lesser rods of extend spell for the hour/level buffs; enough to keep them up 24 hours. Bake 20 minutes at 300 degrees, bam, one effective sorcerer that will contribute even if the party is 6 levels higher than him.

Those are the core spells. Spell compendiums' greatest contributions are swift & immediate spells to use the rest of your actions. Off the top of my head: nerveskitter, swift fly and assay spell resistance (borderline broken). Arcane fusion and heart of earth are similarly efficient. There are probably a bunch more.

[Cruiser1]

Anything besisdes mail man?
Any full caster with access to a varied spell list (such Sor/Wiz, Cleric, and Druid) can make a decent persistomancer, at least at higher levels. You metamagic Persist Spell a large number of powerful buffs to make yourself (and perhaps your entire party) nearly invulnerable. You then stomp opponents at your leisure, perhaps even with melee since you're now a better fighter than the Fighter. Kerri the Merry Fairy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263905) is an example of a persistomancer Sorcerer.

[JaronK]

If the problem is that your DM is too heavily biased, the solution is to talk to your DM, not try to power up your character. If the DM wants the other guys to be stronger than you he will... he'll just throw dead magic zones or something at you.

With that said, there are plenty of ways to "break" a Sorcerer. What about the obvious choice of using Planar Binding with Efreetis to get endless wishes? There, broken. But broken characters don't fix problems in games, they break games. That's what the word means.

JaronK

[Warior4356]

We are level 14 nothing from eberon what so ever things from core and forgotton realms is immediatly allowed outside that ....... Maybe
And its not that he is tring to beat me down its that he just doesnt show me any love

Edit: also i need a roleplay reson for most things

[Gnome Alone]

also i need a roleplay reson for most things
I suggest the character motivation "vengeful oneupsmanship."

[Venusaur]

Well, I suggest talking to your DM.

Barring that, check out the Incantrix prestige class in the Player's guide to Faerun. Use it to spam expensive metamagic like Persist spell.

[Warior4356]

I like that a kind of incret jingle "anything you can do i can do better...."

[8wGremlin]

@Warior4356

you need to provide us with a few answers first.


what level are you
what books are you allowed
what stats do you have, is is point buy, and if so how much
are there any house rules, we need to be aware of?


With these, the GiTP Geni will be able to point you in the right direction.
if however you just want to screw over the DM, Players and the game, then you will suffer the curses of said Geni for all eternity...

So answer the questions, and start talking to your DM...

[Warior4356]

14
Anything core and forgotton realms with out question eberon is forbidden other wise ask first
And for stats total mod of +10
3 even 3 odd max 18 min8

[Warior4356]

Anyideas
8wgremlin

[Zanfire]

when u say broken sorcerer the first thing that comes to mind is a riddled chaotic spellscale loredrake white dragonspawn dragonwrought kobald...

[Gnome Alone]

Things I Object to in This Thread
1.The premise
2. Various spelling issues
3. Changing the title after others have responded to the original post (sorcerer->arcane caster)
4. Lack of grammatical agreement created by said change ("a arcane" = head asplode)

[Warior4356]

All i wanted was a little help.........

For that matter im very new to giant in the playground so if I do someting wrong dont hesitate to point it out

[Gnome Alone]

All i wanted was a little help...



Aw geez, I'm sorry. Just having fun being a grammar nazi--not cool, I know. And changing the title is just a pet peeve of mine, don't think it's against the rules or anything.

[Warior4356]

Thanks do you have any seggustions?

[Gnome Alone]

Thanks do you have any seggustions?

Nope, sorry. Being new around here you probably don't know that I contribute nothing but facetiousness.

[Warior4356]

Oh do you have anysort of useful and unique tricks you have found? Im trying to compile a list

[Vaz]

Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 2/Incantatrix 3/Geomancer +5, advancing spellcasting. Take a Neraph if Planar Handbook is allowed, if not, any none-LA race will work for you.

Take Extend Spell, and Persist with Incantatrix. You are slightly behind full casters (but the rest of your party will love your Incantatrix Metamagic Effect/Cooperative Metamagic). Pick Up Iron Will through the Otyugh Hole. Gives you 3 Feats to play with (+Human bonus, Flaws, etc), can either gish up (need lots of Temp HP spells, and build chain tripper and get the most out of your drift), or buff metamagic out the wazoo.

To advance, max out Geomancer, and then at ECL20, pull out Archmage 1. Cast PAO to turn yourself into a Pit Fiend permanently (if Neraph, if not, some other High Int race). Take SLA Miracle. You can now cast every spell in the game short of non-cleric 8th and 9th enchantments, or cleric 9th enchantments. Even 7th level psionic powers can be recreated.

[Kazyan]

Core and Faerun? Hmm. I suggest using spells like Haste, Black Tentacles, Web, and the +4 attribute spells. Help out the party and debuff the enemies. Summoning monsters is good, too. Dig through the Faerun books--most of the stuff for arcane casters is great.

Get Eschew Materials, then ask your DM about Vow Of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds. It's controversial on this board, but the fact is that it kinda-sorta replaces the wealth you're not getting.

Most of this board is used to all-splats-allowed, but you can find the best spells for arcane casters right in Core. Take a look. Grease is great at low levels.

I recommend a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend for low levels, If you don't go VoP. Even if your DM is stingy, these things are cheap. Sell the vendor trash and you can craps together enough money for one. It will help Mage Armor and such last for much more of the day.

[RFLS]

All i wanted was a little help.........

For that matter im very new to giant in the playground so if I do someting wrong dont hesitate to point it out

This has been said, but the way you're handling this is "doing something wrong."

Thanks do you have any seggustions?

Don't.

[Warior4356]

Ok then how should i have asked for advice?

[jywu98]

For starters, not asking us to "break" the game for you. Ask us to optimize.

[Warior4356]

Im sorry i had seen the word broken more than the word optimized

[RFLS]

Ok then how should i have asked for advice?

*facepalm* Stop trying to wreck your game, or at least stop asking for help in wrecking it.

[jywu98]

If you want something broken, you're looking to possibly ruin the DM's campaign. Something optimized, however, just means an effective character.

[Warior4356]

Im not trying to ruin it its just he has made 2 charectars about 4 l
Power levels kver what we should be sooo yea....

He even made custom home brew for gods sake

[Gnome Alone]

Well, "broken" and "optimized" ain't synonyms. Broken in this context is assumed to mean a caster oozing such arcane power through infinite loops or some such nonsense that he can hardly help but auto-win all encounters. Search "Pun-Pun." THAT's broken.

[Warior4356]

Oh god no i ment on the level of a inchantrix of a shadow illuionist or some thing
I guess the word i want is overpowered

[Gnome Alone]

Gah, curse telephonular character limits.

"Optimization," on the other hand, is generally understood to be the realization of an effective character by synthesizing various abilities into a coherent whole. It's usually more about OPTIONS than raw power.

[Warior4356]

Telephonular?

[Gnome Alone]

Have you asked the DM why you're apparently getting shafted while the others are get custom homebrew and free LA (or something)?

[Warior4356]

No just all the good loot we get just happens to help them its not that anyone else cant use it but its gotton to the point where no one can actually contribute in. Battle because they are so much better than we are and technicly its not home brew its olg

[8wGremlin]

@Warior4356

A lot of the people here do not like the work broken. in most posts what use that word, the person asking the question usually wants to break the game in which they are playing for some petty minded reason. This understandably makes the people here annoyed.

If you want help with a character what is best is to ask for some help OPTIMISING you concept, give some parameters. such as the questions that I asked you earlier. Level of game, what books etc.

Some of the people here will be happy to help you create a concept that works well in the limits of the game in which you are playing.

@ some of the rest of you...

people ask for help in all sorts of ways and forums each have their own set of rules. REALLY GREMLIN?! so perhaps we should all look at what Warior4356 is trying to do.

he's in a tight spot with his DM, and the DM's friends and they are all more powerful than he is, he wants a character that can be effective given what he's told us...

can we help him give what we know...

sure we can... we're all good people, true some of us might be grammar nazis but D&D is not the purview of the English speaking world. It's for anyone with an imagination.

so please dont be a ****....

sorry if this offends, please feel free to PM me if you think otherwise to my comments

[jywu98]

What type of sorcerer does the OP want? There are a lot of options so you have to narrow it down for us.

[Warior4356]

Im not picky im just looking for some sort of arcane casted that does not rely on money or gear at all not that i cant get it but i cant rely on it and i need to be a good distance past where i should beyond the power curve

[jywu98]

Simplest build is sorcerer x/incantarix x. With this build, you are mostly looking to take metamagic feats. You can get Iron Will for 3000 gp iirc, so that saves up a feat slot. Optimal race is dragonwrought kobold with venerable age status, and take the draconic rite of ritual.

[8wGremlin]

So basically your looking for help creating an arcane caster with the following parameters:


14
Anything core and Forgotten Realms with out question
Eberron is forbidden other wise ask first
And for stats total mod of +10
3 even 3 odd max 18 min8

You don't have access to good equipment, and you don't really get to choose what treasure you get.

So I would imagine that Wizard is out, due to the fact you won't find spellbooks, scrolls, or have time or gp to scribe them?

Are you allowed access to:

Spell Compendium?
Races of X books, such as Races of the Dragon?
Complete X books, such as Complete Arcane?


What were the other players and what levels are they?

We'll have a think...and get back to you.

[Warior4356]

We are all level 14 our party is in 2 groups effective and not the effective is a barb a ranger and a warlck the rest of us cant do ****
Bokk spell compendium yes
Complete likly but maybe no
races tough sell

No kobolds

And my race has to be forgotton realms campaign setting

[gooddragon1]

Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm). A lot of them. An area effect dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) failed (or if you want to get technical you take the feat that lets you take 10 on dispel magic checks).

RAW you can cast explosive runes on the same object over and over and it could be a postage stamp if you want. So you put about 20 of them on something and fasten it to a crossbow bolt. Have an associate shoot that bolt at the square an opponent is in and have a readied action to dispel the area (you can choose to fail only dispels against the runes and attempt to succeed on other possible effects if you want) as soon as he fires it. He gets to make 20 reflex saves and take somewhere between 120d6 and 60d6 force damage. Explosive runes has a permanent duration so feel free to make them during downtime. Store the crossbow w/ bolt w/stamp on it in a bag that's tied up and it can't be targeted by dispel magic. Counters to this include: evasion (if he makes all his saves), improved evasion (auto half damage), spell resistance (unpassably high), force resistance/immunity (barely even heard of it), can't think of other stuff atm.

This is possible as a 5th level wizard.

Note that DM's don't appreciate having their story ruined and can fiat you (act outside of the rules) to prevent it from happening.

[8wGremlin]

Do you have to be Arcane?

Because I'm thinking a straight Druid or Cleric might be more effective for you.

What do you want to do in the game, do magical damage, battlefield control, buff the team, debuff enemies?

[Warior4356]

Not to sound like one up man sip but damage

[8wGremlin]

Not to sound like one up man sip but damage

So how much damage are we talking what can the other players do...

[Juntao112]

I'm not entirely sure what the OP wants exactly, so here's a guide to sorcerers (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487.0).

[ericgrau]

Without cha/int boosting items I'd still recommend the no save spells. Or still good on a failed save, or multiple saves with good effects where part of the saves fail. And because those spells are also great even if you can get a high cha/int.

I'll add to the previous lists:
Primary spells
level 6: contingency, forceful hand, repulsion, mass bear's endurance, acid fog (instead of solid fog)
level 7: reverse gravity, power word blind
Secondary spells
level 5: teleport, overland flight
level 6: greater dispel magic, disintegrate (also good in combat against undead)

Basically you want a few of your best spells to be primary spells to use in combat; enough to fill a few rounds and provide some varied options. The rest become secondary spells to use between combat or to cast in the morning and keep active all day. So from the previous list I suggested ignore most of the level 1-4 primary spells and fill those levels mostly with secondary spells. Most of your primary spells should be level 5-7. If you can't get lesser rods of extend spell for a lot of the secondary spells, or don't want to rely on them, then pick up the extend spell feat. Or be a sorcerer and simply cast the same spell twice with your many spells per day. Better yet do both and you can keep many 10 min/level spells active for 8-24 hours at the cost of 2-5 spells per day. Sorcerer may also be a good idea if you're afraid you won't get enough scrolls and spellbooks to gain more spells as a wizard.

Arcane casters aren't really dependent on items to begin with, and sorcerers even less so. All you have to do is get a good spell list and some feats that mesh well with your spell selection. Then it should be pretty easy to always be effective.

[Gwendol]

You have been given a few suggestions: the mailman is one, incantatrix another.

I'm giving you a third(?): Bard.

Specifically: Bard 8 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso X

You will want to play a silverbrow human (silver dragon ancestry) in order to pick up dragonfire inspiration, and you will want to do the usual tricks to optimize inspire courage.

Suggested feats:
Dragonfire inspiration (H bonus)
Melodic casting (1)
Song of the heart (3)
Versatile spellcaster (6)


Now, not only will you have access to sorcerer spells, but also bardic music, which will make your whole team love you. Try it, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

EDIT: If the PrC's aren't allowed, just go straight Bard, it's still very, very, good.

[Jack_Simth]

We are all level 14 our party is in 2 groups effective and not the effective is a barb a ranger and a warlck the rest of us cant do ****
Bokk spell compendium yes
Complete likly but maybe no
races tough sell

No kobolds

And my race has to be forgotton realms campaign setting
OK. Good enough for Sorcerer-14, and Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm). On your spells known, you'll need: Magic Circle Against Law, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal, Dispel Magic, and (of course) Planar Binding. If you don't have a Cloak of Charisma, then I'd suggest picking up Eagle's Splendor and (if you can swing it), the Ability Enhancer feat. A Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofPersuasion) is also a good idea. Make sure to have a decent Spellcraft check (you'll want at least a +10 modifier). Then you just go through the monster manual and try to find critters that'll be useful for you where you can also reliably beat their Charisma check result. Elementals make OK beatsticks, Trumpet Archons make great substitute healers (although they've got a tough will save and hefty SR).

[Pickford]

Can the geniuses at giantin the play ground help me break a arcane caster with out being able to spend any where close to an on level amount of money

Flattery will get you everywhere.

I'm not in favor of a contentious DM-Player relationship, but I am sympathetic to wanting to be effective with low-magic item levels.

With few hit points, spellcasters are vulnerable to such fiendish dm devices as: You got hit with a sword, and you're dead. So what to do when confronted by 'Rocks Fall, everybody dies'? Answer: No it didn't.

[SPOILER]
Sorceror 9/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5 (14th level)

Feats: 3 are required, let's just get those out of the way.
Human: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
1st: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
3rd: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6th: Your pick (recommend: Spell Focus (Divination))
9th: Your pick (recommend: Insightful Divination)
12th: Your pick (recommend: Improved Counterspell)

Spells Known (recommended, note the IotSV requirements when choosing)
0th - 9 (Detect Poison; Detect Magic; Prestidigiation; Arcane Mark; Light; Message; Mage Hand; Ray of Frost; Resistance)
1st - 5 (True Strike; Shield; Ray of Flame; Ray of Clumsiness; Feather Fall)
2nd - 5 (Ray of Stupidity; Arcane Lock; Resist Energy; Ray of Ice; See Invisibility)
3rd - 4 (Dispel Magic; Regal Procession; Protection from Energy; Rainbow Blast)
4th - 4 (Assay Spell Resistance; Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser; Remove Curse; Polymorph)
5th - 3 (Duel Ward; Prismatic Ray; Blink, Greater)
6th - 2 (Disintigrate, Ruby Ray of Reversal)
7th - 1 (Limited Wish)

By 14th level you can stop yourself from being killed by: Nonmagical ranged attacks and missiles; magical ranged attacks; gases or clouds; petrification; poison; breath weapons; mind effecting spells and abilities.

At higher levels I would recommend picking up Prismatic Wall (the catch-all answer to problems is to trap them with a giant wall) and Moment of Prescience in order to benefit from Insightful Divination giving an almost guaranteed 1st in any initiative roll.

Greater Planar Binding when combined with Moment of Prescience means you can get virtually any service you want (as long as it doesn't violate the 'possible or reasonable' clauses, which are fairly unrestrictive). You'd want Dimensional Lock/Anchor and Magic Circle if you plan on going this route however.

[Warior4356]

What book is intiate of the 7 from

[D4rtagnan]

Hmmm beside a blaster (mail-man) sorcerers are not all that popular. I have a couple of ideas but first I got to know, does the race matter?

[Warior4356]

From forgotto. Reqlms campaign seeting no la

[D4rtagnan]

God, just finished reading through your thread. It almost sounds exactly like a game I am in.... admittedly I am "one of the friends" that get all the stuff. You are not having to deal with a scurvy pirate named Luke that is stealing everything that isn't nailed down and then everything that was nailed down (including the nails.) by any chance would you?

Any ways next question, is LA buy off allowed. Nvm, didn't see that.

Anyways I have an idea for a gnome sorc.

[Warior4356]

No la allowed

[D4rtagnan]

Alright I'd go, Sorc. 6/Shadow Adapt 1/ShadowCrafter 2/ Shadowcraft Mage 5

The key is to get shadowcrafter, but that might be hard because it in Race of Stone.

[Warior4356]

If doing ilusion why not wiz?

[D4rtagnan]

Because I was under the impression that you had asked for a sorc.

It a really nice compo. The key to this build is shadowcraft mage. It third level ability allows you to infuse image spells (silent image and so fourth) with shadow matter. As if they were Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration. The amount of real(ness) the spell does when disbelieved is equal to the level of the spell cast.

Shadow Adapt important late game because it forces creatures with true sight to make a check to se through your illusions.

Anyways if your willing to go wizard. I'd just go Warblade 5/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/ Phoenix Mage 2...with a focus on abjuration.

[D4rtagnan]

Beside of which, Knowing one spell in Illusions gives you access to almost one and a half more schools of spells. (all of evocation and some of conjuration) Which helps by pass one of the sorc. main weaknesses. There lack of spells known.

Once you get Shadowcraft Mage level 3, you don't even need to know both Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration. Silent image will do the same thing...only better.

[8wGremlin]

If its just damage what about a Druid 5> Master of Many Forms 7 > Druid 2

Wildshape in to a War troll (MM3): This is one of the best forms for the MMF! Incredible attributes and natural AC plus a great dazing blow ability that keeps opponents from acting in many rounds. When you have reached level 7, it becomes even more powerful with regeneration 9 (acid), DR 5/adamantine, scent, spell resistance 20, dark- and LLV… Just great.
12 HD, large monstrous humanoid, 31str, 16dex, 29con, 14 natural armor, dazing blow; at level 7: DR5/adamantine, DV, LLV, regeneration 9, scent SR level+8

And you also have level 4 druid spells as well.

be weird and be a shield dwarf and take shield dwarf warder add 1st--entropic shield, mage armor, shield, shield of faith; 2nd--shield other; 3rd--magic vestment; 4th--fire shield to your druid spell list...

just a thought

[TheDarkSaint]

Warrior, I would try this tactic.

"Mr DM, I'm not really enjoying the game. I think your story is pretty interesting, but I'm starting to feel like an NPC hireling to Hero X and Hero Y. They are great guys and I like the group, I'm just not enjoying this like I think I could be. I don't feel particularly effective or useful in the party and part of it may be that my Wealth level isn't really where it should be. See, here in the DMG, it talks about trying to keep around this number of GP for my level..and I've got barely half of that. Some times, it leaves me with very few options when we get into combat. I'd like to feel like I have lots of options and that I can really participate with the other guys. Do you think you could help me out on this?"

As a DM, I would much rather someone approach me like this, than me figuring out they are being a munchkin and trying to break the game.

[jywu98]

Warrior, I would try this tactic.

"Mr DM, I'm not really enjoying the game. I think your story is pretty interesting, but I'm starting to feel like an NPC hireling to Hero X and Hero Y. They are great guys and I like the group, I'm just not enjoying this like I think I could be. I don't feel particularly effective or useful in the party and part of it may be that my Wealth level isn't really where it should be. See, here in the DMG, it talks about trying to keep around this number of GP for my level..and I've got barely half of that. Some times, it leaves me with very few options when we get into combat. I'd like to feel like I have lots of options and that I can really participate with the other guys. Do you think you could help me out on this?"

As a DM, I would much rather someone approach me like this, than me figuring out they are being a munchkin and trying to break the game.

The title is just misleading. OP stated that he/she just wants an optimized build. That being said, OP should really change the title.

[Karnith]

What book is intiate of the 7 from
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is a prestige class from Complete Arcane. It's generally considered one of the more powerful wizard prestige classes, though not actually broken like Incantatrix or Red Wizard.

[Pickford]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is a prestige class from Complete Arcane. It's generally considered one of the more powerful wizard prestige classes, though not actually broken like Incantatrix or Red Wizard.

Aye, full progression 'and' powerful abilities. If you can qualify there's no reason not to take it.

[Warior4356]

No druids just because u need to have seen the creature b4 u can use it
Also like the. Ilusion ist fail ur save u take dmg make it and u still do

[8wGremlin]

No druids just because u need to have seen the creature b4 u can use it
Also like the. Ilusion ist fail ur save u take dmg make it and u still do

True, summon natures ally can be your friend, plus your 14 th level, you should have seen a lot. But yes all rely on your DM

Have you looked at warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer as alternatives

[Warior4356]

Warmage maybe not to the others u dont like shadow craft mage

[Menzath]

Okay from the looks of the situation (poorly sentenced, but i'll get over it) the problem seems to be that two other people in your group are being favored as the combat types...okay.
Why not do a different but still extremly usefull role for your party such as the buffer, the party face/skills, or a field control type?

Nothing makes the combat monkeys and healbots happier than when you prevent enemies from moving and attacking.

This leaves you in the good grace/favor of not only the DM, but the two others.

This may not have been what you asked advice for, but it had to be mentioned.:smallbiggrin:

And as for making a combat wizard.... the prc Argent savant + the feat chain spell can make for interesting situations. just need to overcome spell resistance is the only big combat issue. and having auto extend mage armor, greater and shield spells is kinda awesome, and the AC bonus from each beind +2 from the prc is a nifty bonus.
Ah and a favorite, yet kinda goofy force spell that shines with this prc, Coat of Arms in complete mage.

That of course is one option of many. you could just go straight wiz and use poly spells alot, they are great for anything.... really anything.
And of course shapechange is just op.
Same with alot of summoning spells, not just summon monster, the planar bindings are crazy.

Edit: Substitute wizard>sorcerer in this post and it becomes relavent.

[Warior4356]

That and the party has sliped in to ok lets sit back buff and watch them do EVERYTHING i want to fix that:smallamused: