Whirlwind of chains

[Warior4356]

I was wondering is there anyway to twin weapon fight with 2 spiked chains and be reasonably effective

[MidgetMarine]

There's some options out there for Monkey Grip, Combat Reflexes and the Stand Still feat mixed with two weapon fighting and spiked chain.

Throwing in the Thicket of Blades stance from Tome of Battle just adds for more fun.

This allows you to basically stop opponents from moving past you.
It's useful if you're trying to protect team mates.

[Warior4356]

Monkey grip wont work its main hand and two hand only

[Cog]

The Cavestalker prestige class from Drow of the Underdark makes spiked chains 1h weapons if you're already a TWF Ranger. Combo that with Oversized TWF.

Alternative, the kusari-gama is a weapon in the DMG; it's basically a light-weapon version of the spiked chain.

[Vaz]

Magic Item of Girallon's Blessing gives you Two Handed Dual Wield. Two Weapon Fighting becomes -4/-4.

[MidgetMarine]

I think there's a monkey grip continuation that gets you it in off hand.
Also, you can ask your DM if you can just wield a two-handed weapon of your size in one hand rather than a one-handed weapon of a larger size, in which case, this would work.

[Warior4356]

Ok now i need a way to abuse the ability to ao all sqares 10 feet from me

[Ellrin]

Not sure if there are easier/better ways to get these effects, but you might look into the Knight class (PHBII). Three levels in, all squares you threaten are difficult terrain for your opponents. Five levels in and the tumble DC to get through without provoking AoOs increases by your knight level. At that point you've also gotten the ability to ignore speed reduction for medium armor; you gain Mounted Combat plus another bonus feat drawn from a short list (ride-by attack seems like the best for this particular build idea); and you effectively gain Dodge as a bonus feat as long as you've got a shield (just grab an animated shield, or if that's too much gold strap a buckler to your arm). The main issue is the code, but that's way more lax than a pally's, for instance.

Anyway, the point of all this is just that it takes more effort to get through your ten-foot-radius sphere, and if they try anyway they're about 25% more likely to fail their tumble check than normal, giving you 25% more AoOs on enemies that are stuck in your threat range for longer.

[Warior4356]

The problem being only one ao per round so how can i get more?

[Ellrin]

...Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes)?

Sorry, thought that went without saying.

[Warior4356]

I ment besides that i mean a 5 by 5 grid of squares is a lot of ground to cover

[Ellrin]

Realistically, though, you're not going to get a ton of AoOs provoked per round unless your DM is specifically trying to let you or your party is very clever with your positioning and battlefield controls.

Other than maybe Robilar's Gambit, depending on how you read that, I can't think of anything offhand that increases your number of AoOs per round beyond Combat Reflexes. Just make your character SAD Dex-based and pump your Dex up as high as you can get it.

[Cranthis]

With a spiked chain, combat reflexes, and the related, you cover all squares with reach and adjacent.

[Warior4356]

Whats that from?

[Warior4356]

Ah but i dont have a spiked chain



I have 2 spiked chains

[Ellrin]

Whats that from?

Robilar's Gambit? It's in PHBII.

[Warior4356]

I dont have that one :smallmad:

[Ellrin]

Ah but i dont have a spiked chain



I have 2 spiked chains

Having two of the same weapon actually doesn't actually increase your threat range at all. Dual-wielding also doesn't give you additional AoOs.

And if I might make a suggestion, a mighty whip dagger (Arms and Equipment Guide) might actually be better for your purpose than a spiked chain. You get a range of 15 feet (all inclusive) and can still trip and disarm as you would with a spiked chain, as well as being able to use Weapon finesse. In addition, whips are one-handed weapons already; so while you're dealing 1d6 /x2 slashing damage instead of 2d4 /x2 piercing, you've got a much larger threat range and you don't need to waste feats on wielding two-handed weapons in one hand, and this is already a feat-intensive build.

EDIT:
Oh, wait; do whip daggers actually threaten spaces? I know normal whips don't, but...

[Warior4356]

No they dont thats why im going to this much trouble

And. For that matter being able to do a full attack makes over all the squares but i need a good way to increase damage

[Forrestfire]

I dont have that one :smallmad:

... So look it up? (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=robilar%27s+gambit+3.5)

In any case, Kusari-gama from the DM's guide are probably your best bet for dual-wielding chains, but you'd be better off with just one weapon.

Improved Trip will allow you to put enemies in situations where they provoke attacks of opportunity (by standing up), and Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm) (scroll down or ctrl+f to it) will allow you to lock down things you cannot trip.
If they don't move at all, Defensive Sweep (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/defensive-sweep--557/) (PHB II) will let you deal with them that way.

As said, Combat Reflexes is mandatory, and a way to get Thicket of Blades is a very good idea.

I'd also suggest trying to get a way to further increase your size or reach, like enlarge person or expansion hooked to a magic item, since 15 foot reach is generally enough for most melee battles. Deformity (Tall) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=4)also works if you're evil.

Other useful things are Deft Opportunist (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/deft-opportunist--572/), which gives +4 to AoOs, and Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), which will give you more damage output, since it lets you trip as a free action after dealing 10+ damage, saving your actual AoOs for real attacks.

Vexing Flanker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/vexing-flanker--3062/) and Adaptable Flanker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/adaptable-flanker--35/) are also useful, allowing you to hit much easier (and if I'm reading right, get +4 to anyone standing next to you)

EDIT: I'm not sure about the current Whip Dagger, but they did in 3.0 at least (Sword and Fist).

[Warior4356]

In sword and fist they are a ranged weapon with a range of 15 feet not a melee weapon

[Forrestfire]

Huh, I misremembered it, my bad :smallredface:

[Ardantis]

Warrior~

While the vision of a dual-weilding whirlwind of chains is inspiring and impressive, the mechanics of space, damage, and feat economy make this less effective than weilding a two-handed spiked chain.

You do not gain more area covered from two weapons.

Although you get more regular attacks, you do not gain more attacks of opportunity, which is what all this area coverage is for.

Your damage per hit will decrease dramatically, making it more difficult to trip or knock-down (a feat which requires 10 damage per hit).

TWF requires lots of feats, and so does spiked chain tripping. Even as a single-classed fighter, you do not have that many feats. The prestige classes and feats required to trick out a TWF character sqeeze out all the good tripping/area control feats and abilities, and vice-versa.

Granted, a TWF character with small spiked chains or Kusari-Gama is feasible, but to get decent damage you'll probably need some levels of rogue and you'll mostly be a shadow-dwelling TWF sneak-attacker who can trip and disarm mooks- essentially a forward agent. A spike chain character is a lithle and sturdy panther of a man who uses a baleful tool to maintain the front line, tripping or locking down anything that comes near.

Your call.

[Warior4356]

Ah ok so being able to get all thoes hits wont help thnx and why would the damage be less?

[Forrestfire]

Because if you're dual-wielding chains, you'd have to use the Kusari-gama, which is 1d6+ half strength mod, whereas spiked chains do 2d4+1.5 strength mod. Since you get the same amount of attacks of opportunity either way, it's stronger to just go with one weapon.

[prufock]

Strongarm Bracers will do the trick.

[Darrin]

In sword and fist they are a ranged weapon with a range of 15 feet not a melee weapon

Sword & Fist is a 3.0 book. It was reprinted in Arms & Equipment guide, but that was also a 3.0 book. The whip dagger was never updated to 3.5, so it's not entirely clear how it should work... you'd have to ask the DM if he wants to treat it the 3.0 way (15' ranged attack) or 3.5 (melee attack with 15' reach, does not threaten).

Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Cavestalker 4 should work. Take Oversize TWF, Combat Reflexes, and Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Double Hit lets you attack with both spiked chains on an AoO. Throw some Crusader on that for Thicket of Blades, maybe Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 for Improved Trip, then Knock-Down.




And. For that matter being able to do a full attack makes over all the squares but i need a good way to increase damage

Hmmm. We might be able to squeeze Exotic Weapon Master in there for Uncanny Blow... that gets us two-handed Power Attack multipliers out of our one-handed exotic weapons. Not sure we can fit all the feats in, though.

A two-headed Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) might also work, for only LA +3: four arms, two spiked chains, and Superior Two-Weapon Fighting to negate the TWF penalties.


Strongarm Bracers will do the trick.

Not really. A large-sized spiked chain would still be considered a two-handed weapon. To wield a medium-sized spiked chain as a one-handed weapon, you'd have to take a -2 size penalty. On top of the -2 TWF penalty, that'd be the same as four-arming a pair of two-handed weapons.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd also suggest trying to get a way to further increase your size or reach, like enlarge person or expansion hooked to a magic item, since 15 foot reach is generally enough for most melee battles. Deformity (Tall) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=4)also works if you're evil.

Spiked chains and the like don't add 5ft to your reach, they double it. So if you get enlarge person, your chains grant you a 20ft reach, not 15. The half-ogre that Roy fought didn't understand his own combo too well, and Roy didn't do well enough on his AOO rulecheck to realize he made a mistake. (The Giant also makes mistakes)



Other useful things are Deft Opportunist (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/deft-opportunist--572/), which gives +4 to AoOs, and Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), which will give you more damage output, since it lets you trip as a free action after dealing 10+ damage, saving your actual AoOs for real attacks.

Vexing Flanker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/vexing-flanker--3062/) and Adaptable Flanker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/adaptable-flanker--35/) are also useful, allowing you to hit much easier (and if I'm reading right, get +4 to anyone standing next to you)

I believe vexing/adaptable is for anyone fighting the enemy you're vexing with your adaptable fighting style. So they don't have to be adjacent to you, just able to get flanking with the square you designate with your feats. I read it as designating one square, while dndtools seems to indicate any square you threaten. (For really big enemies, you could probably threaten a square in the middle of their space, in case you can't reach behind them)
Also, only the owner of the feat gets the +4. Everyone else just gets the standard +2.

Knockdown/tripping should be saved for a build that maxes out trip attempts. Being big helps, but you want more than that. Personmans guide to melee combos should be checked. For humans, Jotunbrud grants a +4 to the opposed rolls for overrun/trip/disarm/etc, it is not powerful build. It does not grant larger weapon sizes. Try googling for Chain wielding maniacs (CWM) too.

Combo deft opportunist with Doublehit (mini handbook). You use BOTH your weapons on an AOO, at the cost of a single AOO attempt with TWF penalties.
There's also improved/greater combat reflexes (Dragon Mag), which lets you start using iteratives on your AOOs (at the cost of additional AOO attempts). I don't know if you can combo doublehit with Improved/greater combat reflexes, check with your DM.

This is the point where you need to max your dex out, since you could be using 3 AOO attempts per provocation. Look at items, there's a few in MiC that help, though I've forgotten the names.


Question to the OP:
What're your stats/build?
At the moment you're dealing 1d6+str and 1d6+.5str (or 2d4+str and 2d4+.5str)
There's a lot of feats being named here, which implies a decently high level, high enough that your damage is essentially useless by the time you get all the feats.
Have you looked into gaining a source of bonus damage like sneak attack? A single level of rogue will get you that SA, and then add in the feat Craven. Now you've got SA=1d6+character level. That bonus damage from craven stacks on a crit too.

There's other things you can do as well. Like stacking weapon effects. Things like level drain, stunning, fear, curses... Now it doesn't matter how much damage you do, you just have to hit the enemy.
In fact, check the link Weapon Effects in my sig. I've got a bunch of those already listed for you, including source.

[herrhauptmann]

A two-headed Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) might also work, for only LA +3: four arms, two spiked chains, and Superior Two-Weapon Fighting to negate the TWF penalties.

Not really. A large-sized spiked chain would still be considered a two-handed weapon. To wield a medium-sized spiked chain as a one-handed weapon, you'd have to take a -2 size penalty. On top of the -2 TWF penalty, that'd be the same as four-arming a pair of two-handed weapons.
Superior TWF, is that a racial/template trait? The only similar feat I can think of is perfect TWF; which is for epic only and still has the TWF penalties.

I agree on the strongarm bracers. They grant a weapon sized for a larger person, but that's all. No changes to number of hands needed.

[Darrin]

Superior TWF, is that a racial/template trait? The only similar feat I can think of is perfect TWF; which is for epic only and still has the TWF penalties.


For ettins, it's a racial ability. From the MM:

"Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons."

You can get a similar (Ex) ability by adding the Multi-Headed template from Savage Species, only LA +2 for one extra head.

[Forrestfire]

I believe vexing/adaptable is for anyone fighting the enemy you're vexing with your adaptable fighting style. So they don't have to be adjacent to you, just able to get flanking with the square you designate with your feats. I read it as designating one square, while dndtools seems to indicate any square you threaten. (For really big enemies, you could probably threaten a square in the middle of their space, in case you can't reach behind them)
Also, only the owner of the feat gets the +4. Everyone else just gets the standard +2.

Since it says "you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies," I took it as counting as flanking even if you're alone, since it still counts your actual position and as long as you're adjacent to the target, you count as being on both sides him him.

Although that's probably the CO side of my brain reading it in the most beneficial way.


Combo deft opportunist with Doublehit (mini handbook). You use BOTH your weapons on an AOO, at the cost of a single AOO attempt with TWF penalties.

Good lord, is that really a feat? *looks up*

Well, double the attacks/trips if he goes that way. That's awesome :smallbiggrin:

[herrhauptmann]

Since it says "you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies," I took it as counting as flanking even if you're alone, since it still counts your actual position and as long as you're adjacent to the target, you count as being on both sides him him.

Although that's probably the CO side of my brain reading it in the most beneficial way.



Good lord, is that really a feat? *looks up*

Well, double the attacks/trips if he goes that way. That's awesome :smallbiggrin:

Yes, yes it is a feat. There's also spectral skirmisher (phb2), if you're invisible, and the enemy tries to hit you, you get an AOO. But now they know your square.
Then there's a way in ToB to get an AOO if they ignore you to hit someone else. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Now use that with a life-drinker weapon. :D Or a pair of them. If an enemy gave me 4 negative levels each round, on my turn, I'd run. Guess what, that should count for having defeated an encounter.

Anyway, it's really an update to the Jack B Quick build that I was researching.

Regarding vexing/adaptable, I misread you, thought you were saying your allies get the +4 for flanking, not just you.
Though I personally think you shouldn't be able to fulfill the requirements for flanking when fighting alone, even if you've got those feats. Which also affects my interpretation of the feats. Anyway, that's up to DM and player in every game to decide.

[Darrin]

Since it says "you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies," I took it as counting as flanking even if you're alone, since it still counts your actual position and as long as you're adjacent to the target, you count as being on both sides him him.


There's still some debate on whether that allows you to flank with yourself. I'd say, if you paid three feats for that, why not?

Ok, you can do this with Cave Stalker, and it looks like there's enough feats to get in Double Hit and Power Attack:


Race: Frostblood Orc.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: EWP (Spiked Chain).
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Ranger 3. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Bonus: Endurance -> Power Attack.
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain).
5) Fighter 2. Bonus: Oversize TWF.
6) Cavestalker 1. Feat: Improved TWF.
7) Cavestalker 2.
8) Cavestalker 3.
9) Cavestalker 4. Feat: Double Hit. One-handed Spiked Chains.
10) Exotic Weapon Master 1. Uncanny Blow Stunt (PA damage as two-handed).
11) Crusader 1*. Stance: Thicket of Blades.
12) Stoneblessed 1. Feat: Stand Still.
13) Stoneblessed 2.
14) Stoneblessed 3. Stoneborn -> Goliath.
15) Goliath Barbarian 1. Feat: Leap Attack. Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce. Goliath Substitution for Mountain Rage.
16) Goliath Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem for Improved Trip.
17) Exotic Weapon Master 2. Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting Stunt.
18) Exotic Weapon Master 3. Feat: Knock-Down. Trip Attack Stunt.
19) Fighter 3.
20) Fighter 4. Bonus: Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain).

* Note: Some DMs will require you to take a 1st level stance by RAW, even though your IL is high enough for Thicket of Blades. If so, then take Leading the Charge, then Crusader 2 for Thicket of Blades.

[Ellrin]

Bringing up the diopsid made me think of other races from the DC. Is there a good way to incorporate this kind of build on a pair of dvati? I figure doubling your threatened area for free is probably a good idea. And unless I'm missing something in their entry, you also double your AoOs--I don't see anything about the twins having to share their pool, despite many specific enumerations of actions/benefits that they do have to share.

So I guess what I'm asking is... other than trying to squeeze some two-weapon fighting goodness out of the build, is there a good reason not to go dvati for this kind of idea?

[prufock]

Not really. A large-sized spiked chain would still be considered a two-handed weapon. To wield a medium-sized spiked chain as a one-handed weapon, you'd have to take a -2 size penalty. On top of the -2 TWF penalty, that'd be the same as four-arming a pair of two-handed weapons.

I'm assuming the OP has medium spiked chains. Yes you take the penalty. Text for reference. So ,-2 for the inappropriate size -4 for two-weapon fighting (assuming you have the feat, because they aren't light weapons) comes to a -6.


When wearing strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal. (You don’t take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your size.) For example, a human wearing these bracers could wield Large or Medium weapons without penalty. The effect of these bracers doesn’t stack with the powerful build trait (such as that possessed by the half-giant and goliath races).

[Darrin]

So I guess what I'm asking is... other than trying to squeeze some two-weapon fighting goodness out of the build, is there a good reason not to go dvati for this kind of idea?

Well, other than the fact that most of the time when you bring up "Dvati" and "Rules", the Rules start bending at non-Euclidian angles...

Dvati have darkvision, so they can qualify for Cavestalker. They don't get a bonus feat, but you could start with Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Monk 1, use a variant fighting style to grab Combat Reflexes (Invisible Eye) or Power Attack (Overwhelming Attack). You could then use the same build progression I posted above, only now you've got two large-sized Dvati with four spiked chains covering 112 threatened squares.

Whoops. Hmm. Can't take Improved TWF at ECL 6, then. Well, you can bump that up to 9, Double Hit at 12, then, if need be.

[herrhauptmann]

Whoops. Hmm. Can't take Improved TWF at ECL 6, then. Well, you can bump that up to 9, Double Hit at 12, then, if need be.
Could do Psywar 2 for a pair of bonus feats whenever you'd get your fifth and sixth point of bab. Assuming fractional bab of course.

[prufock]

I'm assuming the OP has medium spiked chains. Yes you take the penalty. Text for reference. So ,-2 for the inappropriate size -4 for two-weapon fighting (assuming you have the feat, because they aren't light weapons) comes to a -6.

Bad form to quote myself? Anyway, if you want to ameliorate that penalty, there is the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat from Complete Adventurer. It allows a one-handed weapon (which includes spiked chains with your strongarm bracers) in your off-hand to count as light for the purpose of determining your TWF penalties. So now you're down to -4.