PDA

View Full Version : [3.5 Class] Imitamancer [WiP, PEACH]



Xuldarinar
2013-03-10, 11:18 PM
The idea behind this class is fairly simple. They have no casting of their own, but can replicate spells they have seen recently. Suggestions are more then welcome.


Imitamancer


Hit Die: D6

Class Skills:
The imitamancer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Skill points at first level: (2 + Intelligence mod) x 4
Skill points at Each Additional level: 2 + intelligence mod


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2| Spell Mimicry (0-1st)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4| Spell Mimicry (2nd)

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Spell Mimicry (3rd)

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Spell-like Mimicry 1/day

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Spell Mimicry (4th)

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Spell Mimicry (5th)

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Spell-like Mimicry 2/day

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Spell Mimicry (6th)

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Supernatural Duplication 1/day

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9|Spell Mimicry (7th)

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Spell-Like Mimicry 3/day

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Spell Mimicry (8th)

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|-

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Spell Mimicry (9th)

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Spell-Like Mimicry 4/day

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Supernatural Duplication 2/day [/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Imitamancers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type can interfere with an imitamancer's abilities.

Spell Mimicry: At first level, an imitamancer gains the ability to copy spells they see being cast by others. To acquire a spell to cast, they must first see the spell being cast. Then, they must cast the spell within a number of rounds equal to their class level - the level of the spell. When casting a spell they must succeed a spell craft check of 15 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving through against an imitamancer's spells is 10 + the spell level + the imitamancer's intelligence modifier. Unlike the original caster, an imitamancer does not need to spend experience nor material components for spells, however doing so will reduce the spell craft DC required by 5.
When an imitamancer casts a spell using this ability, the resulting spell is the same type as the original. For example, if a 6th level wizard casts Fireball, an imitamancer of 6th level could then cast fireball as an arcane spell within the next 3 rounds (6 rounds - 3 due to spell level).


Spell-like Mimicry: Starting at 7th level, an imitamancer learns to take on once per day a spell-like ability they witness being used within a number of rounds equal to their class level minus 6. The uses of this ability increases by one at levels 11, 15, and 19

Supernatural Duplication: Starting at 13th level, an imitamancer learns to take on a supernatural ability they witness being used by another creature within a number of rounds equal to their class level minus 12. They gain an additional use of this ability at 20th level

SalmonOfDoubt
2013-03-11, 01:38 AM
This is probably underpowered. I'm just comparing it to the spelltheif (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) and by taking this instead of that you essentially lose light armor proficiency, sneak attack, trapfinding, spontaneous casting of your own, detect magic as a spell-like ability, bonuses to saves vs. spells, the ability to steal spell affects, the ability to steal energy resistance, the ability to abosrb spells that target you, arcane sight as a spell-like ability, the ability to learn every spell known by an opponent, and the ability to steal spell resistance That's everything the spellthief can do when they don't have a chance to steal spells, all in exchange for something that *might* be an improvement on your ability to steal spells. And if there isn't always a caster around an Imitamancer is useless.

As for the spell-stealing itself, there are far more negatives than positives. Negative:
You have to roll a skill check. At level 1, assuming 18 INT and maxed Spellcraft, you have to roll at least a 7 every time you want to cast a 0-level spell. Any time you want to do ANYTHING that your class lets you do, you have at least a 35% chance of failure.
You have a very limited amount of time to cast spells, which basically means you have no out of combat utility and you have to sit the first round out in every combat unless you lose initiative. Spelltheives get an hour, you get a few seconds.
Your spell list is extremely limited. Most spellcasters will probably have a way to counterspell their own spells, and since casting their spells back at them is the only thing you can do...
You're absurdly predictable. If the DM plays team monster with even a little bit of tactics, they'll quickly realize that you can't do anything if they don't cast spells. Unless you're just doing the exact same thing as your party's cleric or wizard or whatever, which can't possibly be all that helpful. There's not a lot of situations where the same spell needs to be cast twice in a row.
You're actively discouraged from saving spells. If you have a minute and twenty seconds max to fire off the spell you stole, you're going to want to get rid of it fast.
It can't possibly be very fun to play. You can do nothing outside of combat, and in combat the only thing you can do is pick another spellcaster, assuming there is one, and say "I'm doing what he did, only worse because I don't get any boosts at all to it."
You get the ability to steal spell-like abilities two levels later, it doesn't last as long as the spellthief's until level 16, and the uses per day scales much more slowly. I have no idea why.


Now, on to the meager list of "Positives":
Don't need to hit to steal a spell, just see it. But you can ONLY cast the ones you see, putting you at the mercy of everyone around you.
Don't need to use material components or XP costs. Either negligible or hilariously broken. Most spells, these don't even come into play, but the ones that have them have them for a reason. Think about the possibility of "buy one permanency, get one free."
You can copy supernatural abilities. Again, either useless or broke, depending on how its used. Most supernatural abilities wouldn't do a whole lot for you. Others would create weird issues with the wording of the feature, like every x times/day supernatural ability ever, or what happens if you copy a doppelganger's change shape and can't change back. Others still would probably interact in weird ways. Plus, you just made pun-pun super simple to get. Even on accident. Congrats.

That's all I got for now.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-11, 05:03 AM
This is probably underpowered. I'm just comparing it to the spelltheif (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) and by taking this instead of that you essentially lose light armor proficiency, sneak attack, trapfinding, spontaneous casting of your own, detect magic as a spell-like ability, bonuses to saves vs. spells, the ability to steal spell affects, the ability to steal energy resistance, the ability to abosrb spells that target you, arcane sight as a spell-like ability, the ability to learn every spell known by an opponent, and the ability to steal spell resistance That's everything the spellthief can do when they don't have a chance to steal spells, all in exchange for something that *might* be an improvement on your ability to steal spells. And if there isn't always a caster around an Imitamancer is useless.

As for the spell-stealing itself, there are far more negatives than positives. Negative:
You have to roll a skill check. At level 1, assuming 18 INT and maxed Spellcraft, you have to roll at least a 7 every time you want to cast a 0-level spell. Any time you want to do ANYTHING that your class lets you do, you have at least a 35% chance of failure.
You have a very limited amount of time to cast spells, which basically means you have no out of combat utility and you have to sit the first round out in every combat unless you lose initiative. Spelltheives get an hour, you get a few seconds.
Your spell list is extremely limited. Most spellcasters will probably have a way to counterspell their own spells, and since casting their spells back at them is the only thing you can do...
You're absurdly predictable. If the DM plays team monster with even a little bit of tactics, they'll quickly realize that you can't do anything if they don't cast spells. Unless you're just doing the exact same thing as your party's cleric or wizard or whatever, which can't possibly be all that helpful. There's not a lot of situations where the same spell needs to be cast twice in a row.
You're actively discouraged from saving spells. If you have a minute and twenty seconds max to fire off the spell you stole, you're going to want to get rid of it fast.
It can't possibly be very fun to play. You can do nothing outside of combat, and in combat the only thing you can do is pick another spellcaster, assuming there is one, and say "I'm doing what he did, only worse because I don't get any boosts at all to it."
You get the ability to steal spell-like abilities two levels later, it doesn't last as long as the spellthief's until level 16, and the uses per day scales much more slowly. I have no idea why.


Now, on to the meager list of "Positives":
Don't need to hit to steal a spell, just see it. But you can ONLY cast the ones you see, putting you at the mercy of everyone around you.
Don't need to use material components or XP costs. Either negligible or hilariously broken. Most spells, these don't even come into play, but the ones that have them have them for a reason. Think about the possibility of "buy one permanency, get one free."
You can copy supernatural abilities. Again, either useless or broke, depending on how its used. Most supernatural abilities wouldn't do a whole lot for you. Others would create weird issues with the wording of the feature, like every x times/day supernatural ability ever, or what happens if you copy a doppelganger's change shape and can't change back. Others still would probably interact in weird ways. Plus, you just made pun-pun super simple to get. Even on accident. Congrats.

That's all I got for now.

Thank you. You have a lot of good points. As stated earlier this is a work in progress, so this is by no means anywhere near the end result. In making this I recognized this would only shine in a magic heavy campaign, and hardly at first level. 1st level spells, with an int of 18, could be cast without failure at 9th, 2nd at 10th, 3rd at 11th, 4th at 12th, 5th at 13th, 6th at 14th, and 7th at 15th. 8th and 9th level spells could be cast without failure as soon as they gain the ability to copy them, again, assuming an int of 18. The progression makes sense for the theme but you are right that for the most part it is very underpowered, especially when compared to spell casters and to spell-thieves, with exception to areas of potential cheese. This would certainly be something you might only consider using as part of a multi-class character, which leads me to think adding in a clause that says it can be used with mystic theurge would be beneficial, as was done with the shadowcaster.

Anyways. Do you have any advice for fixes? Abilities to throw in to help balance it out? From what you listed I can get a few ideas but I'd like to hear what someone else thinks. Possible fixes:

-Add armor proficiency
-Reduce/Remove potential for Arcane Spell Failure. At base, if they only copy divine spells they can take armor feats with no difficulty, but if they try to copy an arcane spell theres trouble.
-Add at least some abilities, perhaps at least an at-will ability that can be used for combat when no spells are available.
-Increase time available to cast a spell. Change rounds to any of the following; Till the end of the encounter, Minutes, Hours, Days.
-Reduce or remove skill requirement, if just reduce I'm thinking down to DC 10 at base, 5 with spell materials. Int 18 and Spellcraft 4 at 1st level, they have to roll at least a 3 to cast a spell.
-Add unique spell-list or at least a way to cast spells on their own. I was thinking maybe adding decipher script as a skill, and allow them to "imitate" a spell from a scroll without actually using it up.
-Adjust or replace Supernatural Duplication.
-Maybe increase BaB and/or Hit Die. Make for a tougher character who can just close with an opponent when there are just no spells to work with.

SalmonOfDoubt
2013-03-11, 06:39 AM
Possible fixes? Play a spellthief. It does pretty much what this class does, only strictly better.

Where are you trying to go with this exactly? Are you trying to build a class that revolves around mimicry? That's what chameleon and factotum are for. One that casts from other people's spell lists? Spellthief, again. Any direction I can think of that you might want to go with this can be handled by some combination of those classes, so I have no idea what it is that you're thinking.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-11, 07:41 AM
Possible fixes? Play a spellthief. It does pretty much what this class does, only strictly better.

Where are you trying to go with this exactly? Are you trying to build a class that revolves around mimicry? That's what chameleon and factotum are for. One that casts from other people's spell lists? Spellthief, again. Any direction I can think of that you might want to go with this can be handled by some combination of those classes, so I have no idea what it is that you're thinking.

Spellthief: Steals spells via sneak attack. In most cases this means closing with an opponent, at least being close enough that your foe could walk towards you and still get to you in one turn. The spell thief is simply a hybrid of a Sorcerer/rogue, leaning more towards rogue. This is in opposition to the beguiler which is an illusionist/rogue that leans more towards illusionist.

Factorum and Cameleon both duplicate features of other classes, but lack the focus I desire.

What I'm thinking is a class that almost exclusively duplicates magic. That being their focus. They don't need to close with a foe to do it. Spellthieves are pretty good, but again, you need to sneak attack to steal a spell. The closest thing to what I'm going for with that, is mixing spell thief with spell warp sniper. That requires 11th level to get in if you don't multi-class. At that point, you still need a way to keep denying your foe their dexterity to keep using it.

Your argument here is fundamentally like saying why play a wu jen when there is already the wizard. If you want an elemental focus with it, theres always the elemental savant. Why play a sorcerer when wizards get more spells and earlier, or why play a wizard when sorcerers can throw out any of their spells at any time without prep? Theres the Death Master class, but you can just be a wizard (Necromancer) and do much of the same.

I know my class isn't great right now, thats why I posted it here. So it can be refined. If you don't like it, ok. You don't have to. If you think I'm wasting my time, so be it. Im aware of what exist in the game already, and short of developing an entirely new system for a class, almost nothing anyone home-brews will be something that cannot be done already in some form or another.

Answerer
2013-03-11, 08:58 AM
Actually, Wu Jen have a number of interesting and useful spells uniquely their own.

Anyway, I have a really simple suggestion: "imitamancer" sounds really awkward. Why not the time-honored tradition of blue magic? A blue mage class would be interesting.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-11, 09:05 AM
Actually, Wu Jen have a number of interesting and useful spells uniquely their own.

Anyway, I have a really simple suggestion: "imitamancer" sounds really awkward. Why not the time-honored tradition of blue magic? A blue mage class would be interesting.

I agree that the name sounds awkward. Hmm.. I'll have to think on that. A blue mage...

Realms of Chaos
2013-03-11, 09:59 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189714) is a spellthief I made a while ago that allows them to steal spells from a distance. Feel free to take anything that looks interesting.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-11, 10:10 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189714) is a spellthief I made a while ago that allows them to steal spells from a distance. Feel free to take anything that looks interesting.

Wow. thanks for the link. That spell-thief variant looks fantastic. I'll have to think about this.

SalmonOfDoubt
2013-03-11, 06:55 PM
I know my class isn't great right now, thats why I posted it here. So it can be refined. If you don't like it, ok. You don't have to. If you think I'm wasting my time, so be it. Im aware of what exist in the game already, and short of developing an entirely new system for a class, almost nothing anyone home-brews will be something that cannot be done already in some form or another.I like the idea of the class. I love imitator classes. It's just an issue with the implementation. From what I could gather based on the OP, the fluff and mechanics you wanted were *almost* exactly those of the spellthief. Or maybe a tweaked spellthief, in which case you might be better off making an alternate class feature. I couldn't make suggestions on how you might improve your class when I had no idea what you wanted out of it.

But then, this:
What I'm thinking is a class that almost exclusively duplicates magic. That being their focus. They don't need to close with a foe to do it. Spellthieves are pretty good, but again, you need to sneak attack to steal a spell. The closest thing to what I'm going for with that, is mixing spell thief with spell warp sniper. That requires 11th level to get in if you don't multi-class. At that point, you still need a way to keep denying your foe their dexterity to keep using it.You want a class that ONLY steals spells and is damn good at it. In which case something along the lines of an alternate version of the spellthief might be viable. One where you swap your non-spell stealing abilities for more spell stealing related ones. Kind of like what Realms of Chaos posted. Yeah...

Pyromancer999
2013-03-11, 09:55 PM
Is this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526914/New_Class_-_Blue_Mage!) what you were going for?

Realms of Chaos
2013-03-11, 10:12 PM
Alternatively, Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9532306&postcount=9) is another example, this time of a "full caster" spell stealer.