Polymorph in humans

[Morphie]

I don't really know if this subject has already been adressed, but I my question is this:
If a human gets polymorphed (either by a spell or similar effect), does he lose the extra feat he gained at first level, as well as the extra skill points?
If so, how would the PC deal with this? Should he define what feat he chose as the racial bonus, as well as the skill points and such?

[Rubik]

I don't really know if this subject has already been adressed, but I my question is this:
If a human gets polymorphed (either by a spell or similar effect), does he lose the extra feat he gained at first level, as well as the extra skill points?
If so, how would the PC deal with this? Should he define what feat he chose as the racial bonus, as well as the skill points and such?Yes, the human loses those racial abilities, technically. Likewise, if you Polymorph INTO a human you GAIN those bonuses...and can choose different ones each time.

However, I'm willing to bet nobody actually bothers to keep track of things like that. I know I never have.

[Ganorenas]

Could this then make Polymorph another way to gain a floating feat?

It would only be for min/Cl, but a floating feat at the cost of a spell
You can finally have dodge, and maybe remember it since you went through all this trouble for it

[Rubik]

Could this then make Polymorph another way to gain a floating feat?

It would only be for min/Cl, but a floating feat at the cost of a spell
You can finally have dodge, and maybe remember it since you went through all this trouble for itOh, yes. And it's one of only two ways I'm aware of to get floating skill points, too. The other is the Open Minded feat (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook). If you Polymorph into a human and take THAT as your feat, you gain CL+5 skill points. Very nice, that.

Note that you can also go strongheart halfling, but human is better for t3h m4d sk1llz.

[Namfuak]

Now add in the DCFS to make all of them permanent.

[Rubik]

Now add in the DCFS to make all of them permanent.I'd rule that once the Polymorph goes away, so does the DCFS'd feat.

However! Grab a psychoactive skin of proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) to get new feats whenever you want, for no additional expenditure!

[AuraTwilight]

A common sense houserule would be that Polymorph doesn't change your memories, therefore it doesn't change your skills, feats, or mental ability scores.

[Namfuak]

A common sense houserule would be that Polymorph doesn't change your memories, therefore it doesn't change your skills, feats, or mental ability scores.

Regular polymorph already doesn't change your mental ability scores, skills, or feats from class levels.


I'd rule that once the Polymorph goes away, so does the DCFS'd feat.


I would rule that the *** who tries to do that at the table is playing a truenamer from now on.

[AuraTwilight]

Regular polymorph already doesn't change your mental ability scores, skills, or feats from class levels.

Then it shouldn't change ANY feats. Humans having bonus feats, by the standard fluff, represents how humans don't specialize much and are always trying new things. Those life experiences don't magically disappear when a human turns into something else, nor do they spring from nothing when something polymorphs into a human.

Reincarnation, on the other hand, might be justifiable.

[Namfuak]

Then it shouldn't change ANY feats. Humans having bonus feats, by the standard fluff, represents how humans don't specialize much and are always trying new things. Those life experiences don't magically disappear when a human turns into something else, nor do they spring from nothing when something polymorphs into a human.

Reincarnation, on the other hand, might be justifiable.



You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.


Polymorph doesn't have a specific line contradicting this. Looking at some monster entries, it seems that racial traits are all special qualities (specifically listed as "racial traits" under "special qualities."). Thus, the feat gained is lost upon casting the spell. Unfortunately, it seems it would not work the other way:



It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Thus, you lose your bonus feat as a human when casting alter self or polymorph, but cannot gain one by turning into a human. This is not to say I would actually enforce the former, just that it seems to be rules as written.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm aware, that's why I called my original statement a "common sense houserule."

[Rubik]

Polymorph doesn't have a specific line contradicting this. Looking at some monster entries, it seems that racial traits are all special qualities (specifically listed as "racial traits" under "special qualities."). Thus, the feat gained is lost upon casting the spell. Unfortunately, it seems it would not work the other way:

Thus, you lose your bonus feat as a human when casting alter self or polymorph, but cannot gain one by turning into a human. This is not to say I would actually enforce the former, just that it seems to be rules as written.Actually, you DO gain the bonus feat. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) which explicitly grants racial bonus feats and skill bonuses:


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

[Cog]

Actually, you DO gain the bonus feat. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) which explicitly grants racial bonus feats and skill bonuses:
Polymorph is almost certainly a more specific source for what Polymorph does than Alter Self is, and Namfuak provided the relevant quote there.

[Rubik]

Polymorph is almost certainly a more specific source for what Polymorph does than Alter Self is, and Namfuak provided the relevant quote there.Except feats aren't special qualities. They have an entirely different category in character and monster entries, and thus the two are unrelated.

In short, it doesn't work like that.

[KillingAScarab]

I recently came across Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) and I recommend everyone give it a read. Of particular relevance to this topic are the posts/sections titled Monsters Got Traits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11444630&postcount=3) and Transforming and Rolling Out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11444681&postcount=6).

First, though, the three rules of monsters.


1. Monsters are just like you.

In many video games, monsters have almost nothing to do with player characters. D&D 3.5 isn't like that. Monsters have levels, which give them Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, Hit Points, Skill Points, everything your levels give you. They have races, which can give them things your races can give you. They're more afraid of you than you are of them, unless they have Frightful Presence. They're so much like you that once you learn how much, you're going to need the second rule:

2. ...Except when they're not.

Sometimes monsters are different. Their "level" isn't equal to your level. And you fight them at different levels from that! Then there's all the weird abilities they get. Of course, many of those abilities are things that you can get without being a monster, which brings us to the third and final rule:

3. You are a monster too.

Most monster stats are stats you have too, even if you haven't seen them on your character sheet. All those weird special attacks and special qualities? Those creature types? You have special attacks and special qualities. You have a creature type. Understanding monsters is understanding your own character. You want that understanding? Then read this handbook.


Pay special attention to rule three, especially when reading these next two parts.


A monster isn't just a class. If it was, you could have an Elf Vrock, or a Dwarf Orc, or a Human Gelatinous Cube. Monsters have Traits, which are sort of like races. The main difference between a monster's Traits and your Racial Traits is that a monster's traits are better organized and labeled. In fact, all of the racial traits you can get from the Player's Handbook are traits monsters can get too.

...

After Space/Reach we come to one of the more involved parts of the entry, the Special Attacks and Special Qualities. Both of these are examples of Special Abilities. Special Abilities are special things the monster does or traits the monster has. You have Special Abilities Too. However, most of your Special Abilities come from your classes. Special Abilities are divided up in two ways, based on how they're used and how they work.

How they're used: Special Abilities are either Special Attacks or Special Qualities. Special Attacks are things the monster uses actively, like spells or sneak attack. Special Qualities are things that are always-on, like Damage reduction or Acid Resistance.

How they work: Special Abilities fall into the following three types. To tell which sort of special ability it is, look after the ability's name in the more detailed description of it. You'll see an entry in parentheses. These indicate:
(Ex): Extraordinary Abilities: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical and represent the monster's unique physical shape and things it knows how to do. Even if it breaks the laws of physics it might still be an Extraordinary Ability, because D&D physics is very different from real-world physics.

...

Extraordinary Abilities are very common, so common that you have had them all along without noticing. In fact, when you take a feat, it becomes an Extraordinary Ability. That's why you keep your feats in an Antimagic Field. Many classes have Extraordinary Abilities too. For example, the Barbarian's Rage is an Extraordinary Ability.

Did you see that part at the end? Feats are extraordinary abilities? Good. Let's move on.


In this section, we will discuss what happens when you manage to turn into a monster, via something like Wild Shape or Polymorph. We may also discuss a few side topics.

Shapeshifting Magic:

The rules for the various sorts of shapeshifting magic are varied and complex, and would make a whole handbook by themselves. A nice chart of the most common options is here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1415.0). In this guide, we will focus on a few common mistakes. First though, let's make sure we're all on the same page:

Wild Shape, Polymorph, and Alter Self have gotten a lot of errata. Shapeshifting abilities are some of the most powerful and confusing abilities in the game, so the people who make D&D have put in a lot of effort to limit their power and make them less confusing. If you are going to use a shapeshifting power you need to make sure you have the latest errata, or that you have access to a trustworthy online resource like d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/).

In general, a shapeshifting ability will tell you precisely what you do and do not get from it. If it doesn't say you get something, assume you don't get it. In particular, a shapeshifting ability will never give you the hit dice of the creature you are turning into, so you will never gain the features of its Racial Hit Dice, including its Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, etc. You don't gain its feats or skill points either.

...

Shapeshifting abilities often separate Special Qualities and Special Attacks. Pay attention to which section of the creature's description the ability is listed in, as well as to whether it is Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural.

Check out that part about special attacks and special qualities. Now take another look at the description of polymorph (underline is mine).


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Which extraordinary special qualities are we interested in here? Racial traits, such as extra skill points and feats. If you use the polymorph spell to turn into a human, you wouldn't gain them. You don't swap racial hit dice (if you have any) or anything like that, so you should never lose things like skill points or feats.

[Namfuak]

Except feats aren't special qualities. They have an entirely different category in character and monster entries, and thus the two are unrelated.

In short, it doesn't work like that.

That only seems to be the case when the bonus feat or skill bonus is specific. So, for example, if I altered myself into a troglodyte, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) I would get multiattack and the bonus to hide checks. However, the human bonus feat and skill points aren't racial bonuses to skills, they are racial traits. Thus, they are treated like other traits (such as darkvision).

[Rubik]

Maybe you should reread Alter Self: (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. Notice that it refers to special attacks, special qualities, AND feats and skills separately?

This carries over into Polymorph, (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) where it says "This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature."

Metamorphosis (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) is the exact same, except it's condensed into a single power, you can only target yourself, and you can turn into objects as well.

[Siosilvar]

Urpriest's Handbook isn't quite accurate in that statment. I quote a PM conversation I had with Curmudgeon once:

A365 Extraordinary, like all other feat effects.
I don't think this answer is correct. Certainly your explanation is wrong; there are groups of feats (divine feats, exalted feats, wild feats, tainted feats) which are categorically Supernatural, and others which simply state that ("This is a supernatural ability."), so "like all other feat effects" is off the mark. As for other feats being Extraordinary, I'd really like a RAW source.

Citations in three places I know of come close, and feats defaulting to Extraordinary is alluded to rather than stated in every instance. The 3.0 book Book of Vile Darkness:
As such, vile feats are supernatural abilities rather than extraordinary abilities. and the 3.5 books Fiendish Codex I:
As such, the benefits granted by these feats are supernatural rather than extraordinary abilities. and Book of Exalted Deeds:

These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are). There are a few problems here. For the BoVD statement we can see that in 3.5 D&D it isn't even partially correct. In 3.5 books like Heroes of Horror and Elder Evils there's no longer a categorical statement for vile feats the way there is for divine feats, and the vile feats from Book of Vile Darkness have been replaced by 3.5 versions. Some of those replacements are in Fiendish Codex I, but every one of those 3.5 replacements are updated (without the Supernatural statement about vile feats) in books which follow, particularly Elder Evils and Exemplars of Evil. In these 3.5 vile feats only a few are designated as Supernatural. Example:
Dark Whispers [Vile]:
This is a mind-affecting, supernatural effect. The BoED statement is statistical rather than categorical; it doesn't state which feats are Extraordinary, either by name or group. And then of course there's the applicability issue: if your campaign doesn't use Book of Exalted Deeds or Fiendish Codex I, is there anything else in the rules which categorizes undesignated feats? These aren't primary source books, after all.

So I have come up empty looking for a citation in the 3.5 rules that actually says feats are Extraordinary unless otherwise designated. Can you provide a RAW citation that would back up your A 365? I do like to get these things right. As I see the RAW, feat benefits which aren't categorized (either categorically or explicitly) simply aren't categorized; they're just feat benefits (which is a 4.0 D&D category, but not a 3.5 rules category).

It is implied that feats are extraordinary abilities, but they aren't explicitly designated as such, and the two 3.5 sources quoted can be read either to say that all feats are extraordinary or to just deny that the feats the text refers to are extraordinary.

One reading would call feats extraordinary and so not granted on polymorph. The other would give them no explicit type and so natural abilities "because of its physical nature" (quoting the SRD). Calling the human bonus feat a natural ability would be most consistent with Alter Self.

The least headache-y, however, would be to keep the human bonus feat and skill points on polymorphing and never grant them when turning into a human. This avoids prerequisite issues and such as well as quite a bit of bookkeeping--keeping track of a small number of skill points that are different from the other ones would be a pain, and everyone (who's playing a human, anyway) would have to do it since polymorphs aren't all self-only.

[Namfuak]

Maybe you should reread Alter Self: (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. Notice that it refers to special attacks, special qualities, AND feats and skills separately?

This carries over into Polymorph, (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) where it says "This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature."

Metamorphosis (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) is the exact same, except it's condensed into a single power, you can only target yourself, and you can turn into objects as well.

I think that we are reading the same thing and coming away with two different meanings. "Racial skill bonuses and bonus feats" are specific, like the bonuses to hide and bonus multiattack I mentioned earlier on the troglodyte. On the other hand, humans simply HAVE extra skill points and feats as part of their racial traits, like a dwarf has stonecunning or an elf has immunity to magical sleep. As such, it would be categorized under "racial traits" and thus not be transferred.

In any case, I think the argument at this point is academic, since I do not think that any sane DM would actually make a human character work out what particular skill points he loses when he is polymorphed, let alone the feat. Since at this point the argument is heading into the realm of fine-tooth comb semantics, I am going to concede that your interpretation is probably what was intended and what will actually be ruled at tables, and leave it at that.

[GutterFace]

A thought:

if your a human spellcaster and get Poly'd into a cat clearly you cant complete the V/S components of a spell.... but what if you were a Psion... can you still use your brain powers?

[Story]

Yep. That's why Tibbits make such great Psions.