Girard's Gate Isn't A Gate At All

[Olinser]

Recently I've been thinking about Girard's Gate, and where it will actually be located.

But the more I think about it, the more I think that the challenge will actually be WHAT the gate is (for Tarquin and the OOTS at least - Xykon probably knows exactly where it is and what it looks like vis a vis Serini's Diary).

While Dorukan's Gate was a big, impressive gate, Lirian's Gate was fairly obviously the rift - but until they pointed it out in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html , who honestly realized that the Gate was, in fact, a tiny jewel on top of a throne?

I'm betting that behind the door that the OOTS is currently attempting to break into, there is a very impressive-looking Gate that is warded incredibly heavily with permanent (or so long-lasting that the death of the Draketooth clan is irrelevant - Cloister had a week per caster level duration) spells, and set to trigger in a massive explosion when somebody looks at it wrong without the password and secret handshake, while the REAL rift is in something small, mundane, and nowhere near the fake Gate. Possibly underneath Girard's Crypt - with the caveat that Haley didn't find it because there IS NO ENTRANCE.

After all, if you never intend to use it, why would you actually build an entrance to the REAL Rift? Why not just seal it up under layers of concrete and put your Crypt on top of it? Nobody will be able to find the secret entrance - because there is no entrance, period.

I think the most likely course of action is that the OOTS and Tarquin/Malack are going to have a full on Battle Royale over the fake gate - but Team Evil is going to go right for the REAL Gate, and the IFCC is going to use one of their Soul Markers on V to blow up the REAL Gate to prevent Xykon from seizing it.

Thoughts, anybody?

[NerdyKris]

The rift is sealed in the butt cheeks of the statue of Girard they already looked under. :smallbiggrin:


Okay, that doesn't make sense, since the statue was moved. But I'm assuming it's not in the big dungeon as well. I seriously doubt the "cryptic message" was just a joke.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon didn't know exactly where Soon's Gate was specifically, hence why they had to scry on Miko. So I don't see why he'd know where Girard's Gate is specifically.

[Rakoa]

This would fit perfectly with Girard's personality so far. It sounds exactly like something he would do. Just fill the place with misleading traps and completely mess with people when in reality, the "gate" is sitting under layers of cement. Given he was an illusionist, misleading people like that seems to be well within his thought processes.

[Rorrik]

But the more I think about it, the more I think that the challenge will actually be WHAT the gate is (for Tarquin and the OOTS at least - Xykon probably knows exactly where it is and what it looks like vis a vis Serini's Diary).

I think you're probably right. But given how suspicious and secretive Girard was, I don't see him telling Serini where his gate is hidden.

Maybe the whole pyramid is a decoy and it's really just buried in sand a quarter mile away. I assume Soon's gate was the smallest of the gates, but it's possible Girard's is small relative to the others we've seen.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think you're probably right. But given how suspicious and secretive Girard was, I don't see him telling Serini where his gate is hidden.

Maybe the whole pyramid is a decoy and it's really just buried in sand a quarter mile away. I assume Soon's gate was the smallest of the gates, but it's possible Girard's is small relative to the others we've seen.

Going by the crayon drawings, Girard's Gate was the second-largest.

[snikrept]

Though the crayon drawing may have been an image of an illusion

[Flame of Anor]

The rift is sealed in the butt cheeks of the statue of Girard they already looked under. :smallbiggrin:


Okay, that doesn't make sense, since the statue was moved.

Gates can be moved, it's just risky.

[NerdyKris]

Xykon didn't know exactly where Soon's Gate was specifically, hence why they had to scry on Miko. So I don't see why he'd know where Girard's Gate is specifically.

And since that didn't work, he left O-chul alive and "encouraged" him to destroy the gate so he could see its exact location.

[Olinser]

Going by the crayon drawings, Girard's Gate was the second-largest.

UNLESS - that was an image of his FAKE gate.

[Kazul]

Going by the crayon drawings, Girard's Gate was the second-largest.

True, but in the same strip we can see Soon literally giving his gate to Shojo's father (what I have noticed just today). I guess one can assume it means the gates can be moved a little, but on the other hand... it may as well mean we shouldn't make any assumptions regarding gates with the crayon drawings in mind.

I agree with OP & the others it sounds very Girardish. We'll see :smalltongue:

[CoffeeIncluded]

And if it's buried in concrete, well, V is underground, thanks to Passwall.

I don't think Girard would completely seal it up and make it inaccessible to anybody, himself included. I figure he would have had to put in a secret back door or something so he can check on the gate if he absolutely has to. Now whether or not anyone else is going to find that door is another thing entirely.

[Xexyz]

And if it's buried in concrete, well, V is underground, thanks to Passwall.

I don't think Girard would completely seal it up and make it inaccessible to anybody, himself included. I figure he would have had to put in a secret back door or something so he can check on the gate if he absolutely has to. Now whether or not anyone else is going to find that door is another thing entirely.

You kinda just refuted your own supposition there.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You kinda just refuted your own supposition there.

As a sorcerer, he'd be able to cast Passwall as well, whether directly off his spell list or by scrolls. The point is, V's in a tunnel now. The tunnel could be leading up to the gate, but you'd need passwall to get through to the tunnel.

[zimmerwald1915]

True, but in the same strip we can see Soon literally giving his gate to Shojo's father (what I have noticed just today).
No we didn't. We saw Soon give Ronjo the gem that sat over the Gate. "The gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686931&postcount=83)

[stsasser]

Of course. The pyramid and its dungeon are a decoy.

[Querzis]

No we didn't. We saw Soon give Ronjo the gem that sat over the Gate. "The gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686931&postcount=83)

You still shoudnt take anything in the crayons drawing as the absolute thruth. The whole point of those is that we're seeing what people tell us happened not necessarily what really happened.

[zimmerwald1915]

You still shoudnt take anything in the crayons drawing as the absolute thruth. The whole point of those is that we're seeing what people tell us happened not necessarily what really happened.
I agree. But in the case of the Sapphire, we have no reason to disbelieve what the crayons showed us. They match up with what we saw in the "present day" panels, where the Gate sat behind the Sapphire, and with what we know from out-of-universe commentary. The only reason to disbelieve the crayons when it comes to the Sapphire is because they, and the corroborating evidence that backs them up, contradict some preexisting theory that's near and dear to the theorist's heart, i.e., the theory that the Gates can be physically moved. They cannot. They can only be moved via powerful magic, and then only from one plane to another, not from place to place on the same plane.

[Gift Jeraff]

Though the crayon drawing may have been an image of an illusion

Soon would have known how big the rift was for the most part, though.

[Fish]

It's a nice theory -- and I agree that Girard could either be creating the illusion of a Gate, where one is not, or creating the illusion of no Gate, where one is. But I do think it exists; otherwise, we have no reason to believe anything we saw in the Crayons of Time. Unreliable Narrator fail.

I wonder rather more about the nature of the Gate, and how (thematically speaking) Xykon, or whomever, bypasses it.

Lirian guarded the Gate with life and nature. Xykon defeated it with unnatural unlife.

Dorukan guarded his Gate with arcane power. Xykon defeated the guardian with sorcery. Elan destroyed the Gate itself with its own power.

Soon guarded his Gate with a paladin's honor. It was ultimately destroyed by a fallen paladin.

Girard guarded his gate with illusion, misdirection, concealment, and secrets. How will the defense be undone?

And Kraagor's Gate, Strength: what of it?

[Flame of Anor]

Of course. The pyramid and its dungeon are a decoy.

A second decoy? Well...maybe.

[Shred-Bot]

Perhaps the lowest level of the pyramid will be an elaborate maze, with the final chamber guarded by a ferocious dragon turtle standing on a bridge over a lava pit. After defeating the dragon turtle, a programmed image appears, saying "Oh, thank you [insert name here], but your gate is in another pyramid!"

... what?

(The real gate will be under a rock or something several tunnels back)

For Kraagor's gate: perhaps you have to arm-wrestle a Zodar? Or bench-press the Empress of Blood?

[AngryHobbit]

Sounds like something Girard would do.

[Thrax]

It's a nice theory -- and I agree that Girard could either be creating the illusion of a Gate, where one is not, or creating the illusion of no Gate, where one is. But I do think it exists; otherwise, we have no reason to believe anything we saw in the Crayons of Time. Unreliable Narrator fail.

I wonder rather more about the nature of the Gate, and how (thematically speaking) Xykon, or whomever, bypasses it.

Lirian guarded the Gate with life and nature. Xykon defeated it with unnatural unlife.

Dorukan guarded his Gate with arcane power. Xykon defeated the guardian with sorcery. Elan destroyed the Gate itself with its own power.

Soon guarded his Gate with a paladin's honor. It was ultimately destroyed by a fallen paladin.

Girard guarded his gate with illusion, misdirection, concealment, and secrets. How will the defense be undone?

And Kraagor's Gate, Strength: what of it?

Now that's a good point. The gates seem to fall by their opposite. Girard wanted illusions and deceit... but since he and his whole family were dead when intruders entered, there are no illusions and the Gate will be clear for all to see, as plain as day.

If sorcery defeated sorcery, strength will be defeated with strength. Or, stealth. If the Order leaves Girard's Gate severely impaired, they may have to sneak past all the monsters to get to Serini/her successor/Gate itself.

[Ellye]

Having the gate buried in concrete sounds like a pretty good way to hide it, indeed. Couple that with a decoy gate above it... yeah, sounds like a good possibility.

The fact that there are tunnels underneath the pyramid is a good indication of this possibility also.

[Fish]

I'm inclined to think Girard's Gate is not yet defenseless. Something has to happen first. Just a hunch. Still, the Gate's defenders were eliminated through lies and trickery on the part of the IFCC. Maybe there is a way to defeat the gate with ... I don't know, honesty?

If opposites are key, maybe Kraagor's Gate is undone by weakness. Something which appears not to be a threat, so the defenses don't kick in.

[martianmister]

Theory 1: Girard's gate is hidden within the traps on the stairs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html). Too bad, the kobold ruined it!

Theory 2: Girard's family tree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) is the gate. You can unlock the lock by pressing on Girard's buttcheeks...

Theory 3: "Girard's gate" is a metaphor for Girard Draketooth's bloodline, the gate is lies within the blood, hearts and souls of Draketooth clan. Familicide doomed all of them, so V is responsible for the destruction of a gate and she/he should be put on a trial for his/her crimes on humanity, non-humanity and the creation.

[Thrax]

If opposites are key, maybe Kraagor's Gate is undone by weakness. Something which appears not to be a threat, so the defenses don't kick in.

I think "strength" in this case means "brute force", instead of "quantifiable physical power", the opposite of which would be "stealth, finesse".

[Incom]

@Fish and Thrax

That's kind of the same thing.

[Thrax]

@Fish and Thrax

That's kind of the same thing.

My point was:
It's not "very strong" =/= "very weak".
It's "strength" =/= "dexterity".

Both dichotomies are very close conceptually so I understand the confusion, and neither am I all that sure of it, but it's an idea.

[never_shades]

It's a nice theory -- and I agree that Girard could either be creating the illusion of a Gate, where one is not, or creating the illusion of no Gate, where one is. But I do think it exists; otherwise, we have no reason to believe anything we saw in the Crayons of Time. Unreliable Narrator fail.

I wonder rather more about the nature of the Gate, and how (thematically speaking) Xykon, or whomever, bypasses it.

Lirian guarded the Gate with life and nature. Xykon defeated it with unnatural unlife.

Dorukan guarded his Gate with arcane power. Xykon defeated the guardian with sorcery. Elan destroyed the Gate itself with its own power.

Soon guarded his Gate with a paladin's honor. It was ultimately destroyed by a fallen paladin.

Girard guarded his gate with illusion, misdirection, concealment, and secrets. How will the defense be undone?

And Kraagor's Gate, Strength: what of it?

With that in mind it makes it all the more likely that V will stumble upon the gate by accident. I mean, it would make sense if the gates can only be destroyed by irony.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Xykon didn't know exactly where Soon's Gate was specifically, hence why they had to scry on Miko. So I don't see why he'd know where Girard's Gate is specifically.

Because Soon wasn't stupid enough to blab pan-dimensional secrets to someone else, specifically the halfling that even the new kid had figured out didn't shut up?

The irony here being that it was Serini's idea to not have any one member of the Scribble know how any other member of the Scribble was handling their gate's defenses.

[ReaderAt2046]

The irony here being that it was Serini's idea to not have any one member of the Scribble know how any other member of the Scribble was handling their gate's defenses.

In Serini's defense, the information she had (the true location of Girard's Gate), was something everyone was supposed to have, jsut in case exactly this sort of emergency came up and they needed to help each other out.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, but she still wrote it down, in a code so feeble that even Xykon could crack it. Probably the local equivalent of ROT13, which means Roy and V could read it as cleartext once they learn the shift.

[Olinser]

Because Soon wasn't stupid enough to blab pan-dimensional secrets to someone else, specifically the halfling that even the new kid had figured out didn't shut up?

The irony here being that it was Serini's idea to not have any one member of the Scribble know how any other member of the Scribble was handling their gate's defenses.

I've covered this in a different thread - Serini is evil, and trying to destabalize the Gates to get her pal Kraagor back.

I can think of no other plausible explanation why Xykon would have her diary.

[SaintRidley]

With that in mind it makes it all the more likely that V will stumble upon the gate by accident. I mean, it would make sense if the gates can only be destroyed by irony.


By accident. Find the Gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html)


I've said before that the Gate will be found by accident, likely by V. I'm with you there.

[Vemynal]

Girard guarded his gate with illusion, misdirection, concealment, and secrets. How will the defense be undone?


My money is on his own paranoia, something he has done will cause the gate to be destroyed

[Geordnet]

After all, if you never intend to use it, why would you actually build an entrance to the REAL Rift? Why not just seal it up under layers of concrete and put your Crypt on top of it? Nobody will be able to find the secret entrance - because there is no entrance, period.
Then whoever it is will make their own entrance. And when they do, there's a chance you won't know because you weren't physically patrolling that room. And even if you do find out, now they've got a fortress that you have to break in to.

It's the same problem with all static defences: anything which cannot be moved can be toppled by the right leverage. So far, most of the members of the Order of the Scribble have circumvented this by involving living defenders; life being by nature constantly changing yet staying the same in a rhythmic cycle. This flux may seem the bane of long-term plans, but it is necessary, even crucial.


Still, this all could be a decoy... But I sure hope not! :smalltongue:

[Silver Swift]

Then whoever it is will make their own entrance. And when they do, there's a chance you won't know because you weren't physically patrolling that room. And even if you do find out, now they've got a fortress that you have to break in to.

It's the same problem with all static defences: anything which cannot be moved can be toppled by the right leverage. So far, most of the members of the Order of the Scribble have circumvented this by involving living defenders; life being by nature constantly changing yet staying the same in a rhythmic cycle. This flux may seem the bane of long-term plans, but it is necessary, even crucial.


I miss the "how would you defend a gate" thread, even if most of that thread consisted of someone suggesting either encasing the gate in some nigh impenetrable material or trying to hide it and mindrape everyone to forget it ever existed, there were a few really cool ideas in there.

[Kish]

I miss the "how would you defend a gate" thread, even if most of that thread consisted of someone suggesting either encasing the gate in some nigh impenetrable material or trying to hide it and mindrape everyone to forget it ever existed, there were a few really cool ideas in there.
You could always restart it, you know.

[Olinser]

I miss the "how would you defend a gate" thread, even if most of that thread consisted of someone suggesting either encasing the gate in some nigh impenetrable material or trying to hide it and mindrape everyone to forget it ever existed, there were a few really cool ideas in there.

PSHAW they think too small.

When they broke into the Gate area, they would find that the Gate is sealed by seven locks that require a specific (and one of a kind) key. Only inserting every Key, in order, exactly on 11:47 on the second Tuesday in April of a Leap Year, will allow you to unlock the Gate. Any attempt to tamper with the gate, insertion of a wrong object, or insertion of a Key at anything other than the precise time and date will result in the immediate destruction of the Gate (all of this is conveniently posted on a sign for your adventuring convenience - can't have any morons accidentally blowing it up, after all).

Sufficient scrying would reveal the location of the first key, hidden hundreds of miles away in a dungeon reminiscent of a Tomb of Horrors - just a deathtrap dungeon with no real reward, at the very end, as soon as the Key is grabbed, the entire dungeon is rigged to immediately blow.

If they somehow manage to get the first key, they will be able to find the second, in a similar dungeon, and thusly proceeding through all seven keys, on a different continent, in a different dungeon.

If they somehow manage to get all seven keys, insert them, and turn them at the appropriate time on the appropriate Gate - it blows up anyway.

Suckers, fake Gate, the real one is in a small Cloistered cavern with no entrance miles away from anything, the only way to get there is to stand in an exact spot in the fake Gate room and speak the phrase, "Soon eats poo, and I am a duck-billed platypus that likes ham", which will summon you there.

[Flame of Anor]

By accident. Find the Gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html)

:smallconfused:

Oh my...

:smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

Now that's a good point. The gates seem to fall by their opposite. Girard wanted illusions and deceit... but since he and his whole family were dead when intruders entered, there are no illusions and the Gate will be clear for all to see, as plain as day.

The weak point is Girard's trust in blood -- the bloodline of his clan imbued with skill for sorcery. The entire bloodline failed. So, yes, I think you are right. The failure of Girard's primary defenses are essentially complete.

That said, I think it is highly likely Girard built a very well defended Fake Gate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Suckers, fake Gate, the real one is in a small Cloistered cavern with no entrance miles away from anything, the only way to get there is to stand in an exact spot in the fake Gate room and speak the phrase, "Soon eats poo, and I am a duck-billed platypus that likes ham", which will summon you there.

I am so swiping this for use during the school reunion this summer.

I'll send you the body count.:smalltongue:

[Fish]

Hmmm. Perhaps his paranoia is such that he designed the defenses to thwart anyone looking for it. Only if you aren't looking... no, then evil beings could still find it by chance.

Or his paranoia made him assume everybody lies, and if you tell the truth you aren't in danger? No, because then "I'm here for the Gate" is a valid entry password.

What of O-Chul's failed bluff, that it was guarded by illusions and riddles?

[Snails]

Or his paranoia made him assume everybody lies, and if you tell the truth you aren't in danger?

I like the way you are thinking, but a definite "no" on this one. Girard is particularly paranoid about Paladins who can be counted on not intentionally lying while earnestly believing any "fascist" gibberish Soon might feed them.

I am leaning towards the hypothesis that V stumbles onto the location, although it may or may not be obvious at the time.

I was thinking it would be possible to key on the Clan Draketooth tattoos. Perhaps the mummy down below accidentally reveals the hiding place. As a defense, the problem is, in a grinding battle, a Dominated or animated Draketooth is an obvious tactic. Given that the Draketooths planned out a defense for Speak With Dead, I am pretty sure they would see this one coming.

[Shred-Bot]

If they somehow manage to get all seven keys, insert them, and turn them at the appropriate time on the appropriate Gate - it blows up anyway.

Suckers, fake Gate, the real one is in a small Cloistered cavern with no entrance miles away from anything, the only way to get there is to stand in an exact spot in the fake Gate room and speak the phrase, "Soon eats poo, and I am a duck-billed platypus that likes ham", which will summon you there.

Don't forget the fake "KRACKACKOOM" sound so that any explosion survivors think the actual gate is destroyed.

Also: Put a very faint set of circular markings on the floor, about wide enough for a person to stand inside. Reciting the secret phrase here teleports all within the room into an active volcano.

[Shining Wrath]

V is going to find the gate, which is hidden underground. And Xylon will show up. And OOTS will be down another caster.

[SavageWombat]

No, this gives us:

Belkar, dizzy from blood loss, gets lost and runs into V. V, with or without Belkar's help, finds the gate. With the information that Durkon is lost, V declares the situation "hopeless" and decides to destroy the gate to prevent its capture, even though he knows it will kill him. Belkar, for character development reasons, saves V at the cost of his own life.

[Fish]

I am leaning towards the hypothesis that V stumbles onto the location, although it may or may not be obvious at the time.
We are assuming that the device which V found was a trap. It may not have been. Surely few traps would have a convenient escape tunnel. Why build a trap with a new passage for those who survive it? No, I agree this passage is likely to be a utilitarian one: a maintenance hall for maintaining or avoiding the other traps, perhaps. Girard's logic may be: anyone skilled enough to detect the trap through the illusions will NOT go in willingly; anyone NOT skilled enough to see the illusions won't get this far.

The question is, how does V's emotional journey prepare him for the act of breaching the Gate's defenses? Or to put it thus: why V, why now?

This new V has learned a major lesson about the use of blind force; s/he has confronted his/her own failures honestly; s/he has become dedicated to atoning. Will these things give V the edge?

And remember, Tarquin's plan was to swoop in at the last minute and seize the prize. He has no idea whether the good guys are on the right track...

[Olinser]

V is going to find the gate, which is hidden underground. And Xylon will show up. And OOTS will be down another caster.

I actually think that scenario is the most likely - BUT, I think the IFCC will intercede and use one of their Soul Markers to force V to blow up the gate.

What exactly they DO want is up for debate - but they most definitely do NOT want Xykon controlling the Gate.

[VanaGalen]

I wouldn't discard crayon drawings so easily. After all, they were very accurate with previous 3 gates.
Judging from them, we can assume two things:
- The gate definitely isn't as tiny as Azure City one - it seems to be about the same size as Lirian's gate, or maybe slightly bigger.
- The gate is more or less on the ground level, not below and not above like Dorukan's or Soon's.

I'm not sure about the last thing, but we can definitely see Dorukan creating the main sigil (which was last and ultimate defense of his gate). There is also Girard, apparently casting some sort of illusion directly on his gate.

So, I think the gate can't be right behind the door Haley is unlocking at the moment, cause Haley, Elan and Roy seem to be too high on the pyramid. However, there might be some sort of stairs, ramp or pit behind the door leading eventually to the gate. The gate might really be there after all, and I trust Haley's judgment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html) in that matter.
Anyway,I think at the moment the closest person to the gate is either V or Malack.
I think there also might be some sort of really epic Girard's illusion still working on the gate itself - after all, Girard had years to research it and it's likely he came up with something like Dorukan's cloister.

I liked the idea how the previous gates were destroyed by the opposite of what was their protection. Following that idea I suspect the gate discovery may somehow be connected to V voluntarily revealing hir soul splice deal to the rest of the team.

[zimmerwald1915]

We are assuming that the device which V found was a trap. It may not have been. Surely few traps would have a convenient escape tunnel. Why build a trap with a new passage for those who survive it?
The tunnel V finds herself in is not normally connected to the pit trap. The pit trap is normally just that - a closed pit. She managed to open a way to the tunnel with a passwall spell.

[Angel Bob]

On the subject of gates being destroyed, I had an idea the other day (which may well have been suggested already). Kraagor's Gate is guarded by the most powerful monsters in the world to reflect his belief in strength. Supposing it were to be destroyed by an even more powerful monster -- such as one perhaps permanently shrouded in darkness?

Of course, now that I suggest it, I'm beginning to second-guess myself, but still. Just putting it out there.

[allenw]

Kraagor's Gate is guarded by the most powerful monsters in the world to reflect his belief in strength. Supposing it were to be destroyed by an even more powerful monster -- such as one perhaps permanently shrouded in darkness?


Gate? What gate? :smallbiggrin:

Though really, that would work better for Girard's Gate: the way to destroy it is to disbelieve in it.

[Silver Swift]

You could always restart it, you know.

Yes, but that would be, like, work. :smalltongue:

Also I don't think I have the D&D knowledge needed to comment much on proposed ideas.

[Trixie]

You still shoudnt take anything in the crayons drawing as the absolute thruth. The whole point of those is that we're seeing what people tell us happened not necessarily what really happened.

And just why what Soon saw would be fake? :smallconfused:

There is literally no possibility Girard cast any illusions on the Gate when Soon saw it (after they captured it) - he might have covered it with illusions once Dorukan and Lirian sealed it, but until then, the Gates weren't even assigned, what Soon saw had to be true.

[Conte_Vincero]

RE: Girards gate being miles away, I just don't see that. For a man as paranoid as Girard, he would want to be able to check on his baby as often as he wanted, and so would have it close to him. For that reason I think that it is much more likely that the gate is somewhere close by, and that V will be the first person to find it. I also don't think that X knows exactly where it is either, and so we may have Team Evil vs Tarquin's Linear guild, with the winner taking on the winner of reduced OOTS vs IFCC posessed V for possession of the gate.

[Silverionmox]

IMO one of the three parties will seize the gate. At that point, the linear guild will possess V to blow it up... to keep the conflict going.

[Kish]

the linear guild will possess V
...Do you actually mean the Linear Guild?

[Olinser]

RE: Girards gate being miles away, I just don't see that. For a man as paranoid as Girard, he would want to be able to check on his baby as often as he wanted, and so would have it close to him. For that reason I think that it is much more likely that the gate is somewhere close by, and that V will be the first person to find it. I also don't think that X knows exactly where it is either, and so we may have Team Evil vs Tarquin's Linear guild, with the winner taking on the winner of reduced OOTS vs IFCC posessed V for possession of the gate.

Why? Girard was an epic-level illusionist, unless he pulled a V and barred the school that included Teleport, as long as he built in a specific opening for himself or his descendents into his defense spells (I personally think the face tattoos they all have are some kind of passkey to allow them entry to the REAL Gate), he wouldn't need to be anywhere near the actual Gate.

There are many possible symptoms of paranoid personality disorder - for instance, a paranoid that believes that people are out to get him can have 3 major responses to it:

1) Attempting to seal himself in such a safe location that it cannot possibly be penetrated

2) Attempting to kill/destroy whoever (or whatever) he believes is trying to get him

3) Attempting to run and hide so that he cannot possibly be found

Obviously these three courses of action are extremely different, even though they come from the same premise (somebody is out to get them).

Likewise, a paranoid attempting to protect something doesn't necessarily suffer from the need to check it incessantly. It is just as likely that he will be convinced that nobody can EVER compromise the protections he has put in place - unless they can convince him to let them in.

For instance, let's say that a paranoid is convinced somebody is trying to steal a special ring. While he MAY protect it by carrying it around with him at all times and checking on it every 5 minutes, a paranoid is just as likely to believe that he himself is insufficient protection.

So he will buy a small, keyed safe, put it inside a bigger safe that has a 20 digit combination, put that one inside a sealed room that only opens with a voice scan from himself, and put THAT behind another door that only opens with a simultaneous retinal and fingerprint scan.

Since he has so many protections in place that only he can open, the paranoid might very likely resist the urge to EVER open and check on the object - because he believes his protection impenetrable, and any thought that somebody might have compromised it is an attempt to get him to open the way to the ring himself -because the only way somebody could steal it is if he opens up his countermeasures and they swoop in and take it.

Endstate: just because he's a paranoid protecting something doesn't mean he has to have it right next to him and incessantly check on it. He's just as likely to think that anybody suggesting that he open up the safe and check on it is somebody trying to get him to let them inside the protections.

[Shred-Bot]

...Do you actually mean the Linear Guild?

The IFCC is just Tarquin, Leeky Windstaff and Zz'dtri in cloaks and on stilts! It's Belkar in Azure City all over again, x3! This can also explain why Z doesn't talk much, as he can just be bad at disguising his voice!

(no)

[Fish]

Girard's weakness seems to be that he's convinced he knows what kind of person he's defending against. The Scribbles would have done better to team up. I wonder about how it will all end.

Presumably, if they prevent Xylon from destroying the final Gate, it will still need to be defended. Maybe the Stickers can do it better.

Because they aren't epic, however, leads me to think it won't need to be defended -- either because the Snarl is harmless or because the Gate is moved -- or that it will be destroyed, with who knows what consequences. Or, of it must be defended, the Stick won't be the ones doing it.

[ReaderAt2046]

Wait. A. Second.

Haley just finished disarming the defenses on a door about the right size and shape to be the Gate, which was prior to this covered in dozens of layered traps and probably hidden behind a layer of veils and illusions. Could the Order be about to literally open one of the Gates?

[VanaGalen]

Wait. A. Second.

Haley just finished disarming the defenses on a door about the right size and shape to be the Gate, which was prior to this covered in dozens of layered traps and probably hidden behind a layer of veils and illusions. Could the Order be about to literally open one of the Gates?

I also thought so, but I still think crayon drawings are pretty much precise as to the gates size and location. We can see that Girard's rift is pretty much on the ground level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), while the Order seems to be way above it at the moment. Therefore I doubt the gate would be right behind that door.

[Codyage]

I also thought so, but I still think crayon drawings are pretty much precise as to the gates size and location. We can see that Girard's rift is pretty much on the ground level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), while the Order seems to be way above it at the moment. Therefore I doubt the gate would be right behind that door.

AH but they went UP stairs, then DOWN from inside. They are inside the building right now. Possibly at ground level.

[VanaGalen]

AH but they went UP stairs, then DOWN from inside. They are inside the building right now. Possibly at ground level.

That's true, but from their location Belkar and Durkon were still able to go far down. I'm not sure if the pyramid has some sort of basement, but I think Haley&co simply haven't reach the ground level yet.

On the other hand, Haley's hunch is usually right about such things...

[Fish]

It looks like the door to a Gate. It's defended like the door to a Gate. Which is why Tarquin will soon arrive to take control.

Roy has no alternative, really, except to parlay and tell the truth. He can hardly blame Tarquin for being covetous; Roy hasn't been forthcoming about their mission.

[Olinser]

It looks like the door to a Gate. It's defended like the door to a Gate. Which is why Tarquin will soon arrive to take control.

Roy has no alternative, really, except to parlay and tell the truth. He can hardly blame Tarquin for being covetous; Roy hasn't been forthcoming about their mission.

Roy MIGHT have been willing to... until Malack snacked on Durkon. There is no way Roy is going to negotiate jack #$!% with Tarquin now.

[Fish]

That Malack so snacked is because Roy held back essential information. I subscribe to the notion that Rich weaves themes into his story; this segment is about illusion, lies, secrets, and paranoia. Everybody in the Order is lying about why they're here (and especially in V's case, what they've done). Had they been honest from the start this may have been avoidable -- Malack specifically said he owed Durkon punishment for his deception.

Think about the use of lies since leaving Hinjo's fleet. Belkar pretending to be good; Girard lying about the coordinates; Durkon claiming to be on pilgrimage; Haley pretending to be a disciple of Thor. After giving Elan a talk about honesty at the start of the section, in Sandsedge, Haley literally used a potion of lying to get through the prison guards. More examples could be named. It's probably not a coincidence that lying hasn't got them very far. Thus, I think honesty is the way to go here.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Durkon told the truth. Ultimately, he was there because he was sent out to spend a lifetime learning about human cultures.

If they didn't ask him about anything that happened since that day, well...