Does multiclassing Prestige Classes incur an XP penalty?

[Peelee]

Say I wanted to run a Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2, then go all out on Arcane Heirophant. Would there be an XP penalty for having two different Prestige Classes once my AH level hit 4?

Also, as a small addendum, is it possible to cast 2nd level spells before you hit 3rd level Druid/Wizard? If so, is it in a book source, and which one?

[Pancritic]

No. Prestige classes are specifically exempt from the multiclassing xp penalty.

[jokeaccount]

As far as I know you can have as many prestige classes as you want and in any level and it does not incur any xp penalty.

About the spell levels, you technically can but it won't let you qualify for the mystic theurge class. For example, a Trapsmith can cast haste as a first level spell but it is considered first level spell even if it is 3rd level for wizard. TL;DR you cannot enter mystic theurge with less than 3 lvls in arcane and 3 lvls in divine spell casting class. That's why it is not worth taking it to its max level.

[Peelee]

As far as I know you can have as many prestige classes as you want and in any level and it does not incur any xp penalty.

About the spell levels, you technically can but it won't let you qualify for the mystic theurge class. For example, a Trapsmith can cast haste as a first level spell but it is considered first level spell even if it is 3rd level for wizard. TL;DR you cannot enter mystic theurge with less than 3 lvls in arcane and 3 lvls in divine spell casting class. That's why it is not worth taking it to its max level.

Thought as much. While trying to research it myself, I found someone who had Druid 3/Wizard 1/MT 1/AH something, and people were only saying it wouldn't work because the BAB was too low for Arcane Hierophant, and one asked why he had so many Druid levels, since he could spontaneously summon monster 2 with two of his level 1 slots. Both that and the Wiz 1 confused me, so I figured I'd ask.

[Gazzien]

Yes, you can cast 2nd-level before 3rd level; there's a theurgy handbook around here somewhere that will quickly be linked to.

Methods involve Practiced Spellcaster, Earth Spell + Heighten, Sanctum Spell oddness, and others, I'm sure.

Sorry for not being strongly defined; I'm currently on my phone.

[Peelee]

Yes, you can cast 2nd-level before 3rd level; there's a theurgy handbook around here somewhere that will quickly be linked to.

Methods involve Practiced Spellcaster, Earth Spell + Heighten, Sanctum Spell oddness, and others, I'm sure.

Sorry for not being strongly defined; I'm currently on my phone.

I was actually thinking about getting Practiced Spellcaster twice to make my Druid and Wizard casting at full level, actually (unsure, also thinking about specializing in range/range touch spells which would require ranged feats, but that's irrelevant). I was under the impression it didn't let you cast higher level spells, though, due to

This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
Would that let you cast higher-level spells? Say, Druid 3/Wizard 1 with Practiced Spellcaster for Wizard would be able to cast 2nd level arcane?

[Answerer]

No, it would not; Gazzien is mistaken or misspoke, or is perhaps referring to some trick that relies on Practiced Spellcaster in combination with other feats/items/abilities to achieve that result (e.g. Practiced Spellcaster helps out Ultimate Magi, for example, and Practiced Manifester does wonders for multiclass Ardents).

My guess, though, is he meant Precocious Apprentice rather than Practiced Spellcaster. They're from the same book, have similar names, etc. Precocious Apprentice does do the trick.

[Gazzien]

No, it would not; Gazzien is mistaken or misspoke, or is perhaps referring to some trick that relies on Practiced Spellcaster in combination with other feats/items/abilities to achieve that result (e.g. Practiced Spellcaster helps out Ultimate Magi, for example, and Practiced Manifester does wonders for multiclass Ardents).

My guess, though, is he meant Precocious Apprentice rather than Practiced Spellcaster. They're from the same book, have similar names, etc. Precocious Apprentice does do the trick.

Er, yeah. Whoops. Meant precocious; then you can pick up Practiced to bring your CL up to par on the 3-level side. Best entry is level 5, afaik (or as much as I can think of), with 3 of one class, and 1 of the other.

I apologize! >//////<"

[Peelee]

Er, yeah. Whoops. Meant precocious; then you can pick up Practiced to bring your CL up to par on the 3-level side. Best entry is level 5, afaik (or as much as I can think of), with 3 of one class, and 1 of the other.

I apologize! >//////<"

No worries. The only flaw in that build (well, for me) would be Precocious Apprentice can only be chosen at 1st level and our campaign has already started. Guess I'll have to stick with my original plan of Druid 3/Wizard 3 to get my Mystic Theurge requirements and then Theurge it up until my BAB is good enough for Arcane Hierophant.

Thank you, Gazzien and Answerer!

[Gazzien]

No worries. The only flaw in that build (well, for me) would be Precocious Apprentice can only be chosen at 1st level and our campaign has already started. Guess I'll have to stick with my original plan of Druid 3/Wizard 3 to get my Mystic Theurge requirements and then Theurge it up until my BAB is good enough for Arcane Hierophant.

Thank you, Gazzien and Answerer!

Well, good luck with that! I love theurges (especially cross-system, like Psi/magic, or incarnum/magic... and despite their not getting everything ASAP), so I hope it turns out well for you!

[LTwerewolf]

There's always early entry methods, depending on how much cheese you want to throw in there. Can get essentially sorcerer spell progression and with an orange stone cast at full level.

Just be aware that mystic theurge is a 10 level class, so at 12 you'd have to choose one or the other or see if you can survive the brain damage caused by the book throwing by using legacy champion.

[The-Mage-King]

Just be aware that mystic theurge is a 10 level class, so at 12 you'd have to choose one or the other or see if you can survive the brain damage caused by the book throwing by using legacy champion.

He's going to take Arcane Heirophant, a Druid/Arcane PrC after getting the BAB requirements.


Which I fully approve of, actually.


Peelee, have you already taken the first Wizard level? If not, I advise that you take an ACF to be rid of your familiar with it.

Why?

Because the Summon Familiar feat is much better than the default one. Scales with CL, not class level.

[Peelee]

He's going to take Arcane Heirophant, a Druid/Arcane PrC after getting the BAB requirements.


Which I fully approve of, actually.


Peelee, have you already taken the first Wizard level? If not, I advise that you take an ACF to be rid of your familiar with it.

Why?

Because the Summon Familiar feat is much better than the default one. Scales with CL, not class level.

Seemed like a fun idea, sand pulling Mystic Theurge to bump my BAB to keep both spellcasting classes even and advancing seemed like a good idea. Nice to get outside approval.

I have not yet taken my first wizard level. Currently a level 1 Dwarven Druid (I liked the idea of revering nature through cliff's, mountains, caves, etc. instead of the standard trees and woods). What is this ACF you speak of? Can't think of anything that would fit off the top of my head. In terms of feats, first one I get after hitting Arcane Hierophant is Battle Caster, but I have yet to plan out anything for my 3rd level feat. I'm pretty excited for this character, as its the fist one I've decided to run that won't just go straight single-class sorcerer.

Also, how would the Summon Familiar feat work with the Familiar Companion Arcane Hiephants get? AH and Druid levels stack for the animal companion, and AH and Wizard levels stack for the Familiar abilities it gets. Wouldn't that effectively be the same benefits of the Summon Familiar feat, or have I missed something?

[The-Mage-King]

Seemed like a fun idea, sand pulling Mystic Theurge to bump my BAB to keep both spellcasting classes even and advancing seemed like a good idea. Nice to get outside approval.

Yeah. I actually had a variant of this idea back that I posted, calling it the Druizard.

Three guesses what spell was planned to be the finale. :smallamused:


I have not yet taken my first wizard level. Currently a level 1 Dwarven Druid (I liked the idea of revering nature through cliff's, mountains, caves, etc. instead of the standard trees and woods).

Not a bad choice. I'd have suggested Elf, since I like the Elven Generalist, but that's just me.


What is this ACF you speak of? Can't think of anything that would fit off the top of my head. In terms of feats, first one I get after hitting Arcane Hierophant is Battle Caster, but I have yet to plan out anything for my 3rd level feat. I'm pretty excited for this character, as its the fist one I've decided to run that won't just go straight single-class sorcerer.

Pretty much any 1st level ACF for Wizard that loses Familiar. I'd suggest checking here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) for some ideas.

If you're specializing, the Immediate Magic ones are EXTREMELY good. Sun and Moon may be decent, too.

Double check with your DM to make sure you can take Obtain* Familiar if you've taken one of those, though. The wording is... Vague, and doesn't take into account the feat.


Also, how would the Summon Familiar feat work with the Familiar Companion Arcane Hiephants get? AH and Druid levels stack for the animal companion, and AH and Wizard levels stack for the Familiar abilities it gets.

Quite honestly? I haven't a clue.

As a DM, I'd say that they don't stack. You get a familiar of your Arcane CL, and nothing more in terms of power.

But, that's my opinion, and my reading of it. Check with your DM.


Wouldn't that effectively be the same benefits of the Summon Familiar feat, or have I missed something?

Nope. With the basic Familiar class feature, you get a Familiar equal to Wiz+Arcane Heirophant. With the Obtain Familiar feat, you (should) get one equal to your total CL. Again, check with the DM. He decides how those interact, after all.


In summation? Check with your DM.


And take the feat that increases effective level in Druid for your animal companion, too.




*Misremembered it from the top of my head.

[Answerer]

If you're specializing, the Immediate Magic ones are EXTREMELY good. Sun and Moon may be decent, too.
Abrupt Jaunt is amazing. The rest are pretty meh. Sun and Moon... I've never seen the point.


Double check with your DM to make sure you can take Obtain* Familiar if you've taken one of those, though. The wording is... Vague, and doesn't take into account the feat.
You don't get a Familiar from your Wizard class if you take one of those ACFs. Doesn't stop you from getting it elsewhere (multiclassing, the feat, etc.). Similar also to how Specialist Wizards can still get spells from banned schools if they multiclass (see Complete Arcane). Class feature descriptions, as a rule, describe only what that class is giving you. Unfortunately, Wizards had an annoying habit of assuming people were single-classed and starting from level 1.

[Peelee]

Yeah. I actually had a variant of this idea back that I posted, calling it the Druizard.
Three guesses what spell was planned to be the finale. :smallamused:
I never really got high level with my Sorcs, so I never really familiarized myself with high-end spells. You got me all intrigued. Also, I'm stealing the Druizard name.

Not a bad choice. I'd have suggested Elf, since I like the Elven Generalist, but that's just me.
Well, I picked the Dwarf Druid before I planned anything out, since it sounded cool, fun, and outside my standard comfort zone. Wanted to broaden my horizons, and then decided to do it moreso with PrC.

Pretty much any 1st level ACF for Wizard that loses Familiar. I'd suggest checking here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) for some ideas.

If you're specializing, the Immediate Magic ones are EXTREMELY good. Sun and Moon may be decent, too.
Two issues I am at fault for not noting earlier:
I am not planning on specializing (I'd rather have a bigger list of potential spells to choose from than a small bonus on the ones I can cast - That said, I have only played Sorcerers before, so I tend to view spells known as quite the luxury, so if this is a bad idea, I'd greatly appreciate reasonings why)
We are restricted to Core and Complete Series (with potential exceptions, such as my Arcane Hierophant. Exceptions must be requested with the source book and page for ease of checking, and can be shot down). DM is the boyfriend of my wife's best friend, and I don't know him all that terribly well, so I want to avoid too many requests, though I believe anything reasonable will be allowed.

And take the feat that increases effective level in Druid for your animal companion, too.
Definitely think about that one! I'm up to my eyes in possible feats (Augmented Summoning and Spontaneous Heal I'm both thinking about as well, as that way I'd be able to prepare mostly buff and blast spells, and I'd be able to double-time as a less-effective cleric.... we have a small party and I'm the healbot, as it turns out).

[Answerer]

I am not planning on specializing (I'd rather have a bigger list of potential spells to choose from than a small bonus on the ones I can cast - That said, I have only played Sorcerers before, so I tend to view spells known as quite the luxury, so if this is a bad idea, I'd greatly appreciate reasonings why)
General consensus is that you lose little by banning Enchantment and Evocation, and particularly at low levels, you like the spell slots. Plus, as a theurge, you have Druid spellcasting to regain some of those spells you banned. Actually, considering the Druid spell list, you might prefer to keep Enchantment and Evocation in favor of things Druids get a lot of (but seeing as Druids specialize in Conjuration and Transmutation and you should never ban those...).

Anyway, this is a pretty good discussion of the common take on things. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/19557/what-wizard-schools-are-best-to-specialize-in-which-schools-are-best-to-sacrifi/19558#19558)

[Peelee]

General consensus is that you lose little by banning Enchantment and Evocation, and particularly at low levels, you like the spell slots. Plus, as a theurge, you have Druid spellcasting to regain some of those spells you banned. Actually, considering the Druid spell list, you might prefer to keep Enchantment and Evocation in favor of things Druids get a lot of (but seeing as Druids specialize in Conjuration and Transmutation and you should never ban those...).

Anyway, this is a pretty good discussion of the common take on things. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/19557/what-wizard-schools-are-best-to-specialize-in-which-schools-are-best-to-sacrifi/19558#19558)

Interesting. I'll be checking that out more when I get a chance. Also, how would banning school work, Theurge-wise? I initially assumed that whichever schools were banned would be gone from my Wizard list, but still castable as Druid, but the wording itself is not so specific:

If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)
I still take it to mean solely for Wizard, but it could easily be interpreted as class-regardless.

[The-Mage-King]

I never really got high level with my Sorcs, so I never really familiarized myself with high-end spells. You got me all intrigued. Also, I'm stealing the Druizard name.

'twas going to be Dragonform. Because turning into a pair of giant, fire breathing dragons in a build called "Druizard" is kinda needed. :smalltongue:



Two issues I am at fault for not noting earlier:
I am not planning on specializing (I'd rather have a bigger list of potential spells to choose from than a small bonus on the ones I can cast - That said, I have only played Sorcerers before, so I tend to view spells known as quite the luxury, so if this is a bad idea, I'd greatly appreciate reasonings why)
We are restricted to Core and Complete Series (with potential exceptions, such as my Arcane Hierophant. Exceptions must be requested with the source book and page for ease of checking, and can be shot down). DM is the boyfriend of my wife's best friend, and I don't know him all that terribly well, so I want to avoid too many requests, though I believe anything reasonable will be allowed.

Specializing is usually the best option, especially if theurging is being done. I went with generalist in my build because Elf generalist gets more spells/level than most everything, and the language on it and Precocious Apprentice make it unarguable for early entry shenanigans.

Most of what I can suggest for spells is Core or Complete, honestly. You might want some spells from the Spell Compendium, but really most of the good ones for this are in the Completes, if not Core.

Ask someone else about specializing, though. Not really my forte.


Definitely think about that one! I'm up to my eyes in possible feats (Augmented Summoning and Spontaneous Heal I'm both thinking about as well, as that way I'd be able to prepare mostly buff and blast spells, and I'd be able to double-time as a less-effective cleric.... we have a small party and I'm the healbot, as it turns out).

Hm... Wands for healbotting are the best way to go. Use Druid for Animal form buffs, and Wizard for humanoid buffs/general buffs.

Spontaneous Heal probably isn't the best option for a feat, but eh.


You WILL get Natural Spell as your (First feat after getting Wild Shape), right?

[Peelee]

'twas going to be Dragonform. Because turning into a pair of giant, fire breathing dragons in a build called "Druizard" is kinda needed. :smalltongue:
....ok, I really shoulda seen that coming, in hindsight.


Specializing is usually the best option, especially if theurging is being done. I went with generalist in my build because Elf generalist gets more spells/level than most everything, and the language on it and Precocious Apprentice make it unarguable for early entry shenanigans.
...
Ask someone else about specializing, though. Not really my forte.
No worries, Answerer is already helping on that front.


Most of what I can suggest for spells is Core or Complete, honestly. You might want some spells from the Spell Compendium, but really most of the good ones for this are in the Completes, if not Core.
Oh, right. Spell Compendium. That was the first thing I requested to be allowed in, and got it. No problems there. Can't believe I forgot it.


Hm... Wands for healbotting are the best way to go. Use Druid for Animal form buffs, and Wizard for humanoid buffs/general buffs.

Spontaneous Heal probably isn't the best option for a feat, but eh.
That's pretty solid advice right there. Will definitely save me a feat.


You WILL get Natural Spell as your (First feat after getting Wild Shape), right?
Panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

[Answerer]

Interesting. I'll be checking that out more when I get a chance. Also, how would banning school work, Theurge-wise? I initially assumed that whichever schools were banned would be gone from my Wizard list, but still castable as Druid, but the wording itself is not so specific:

I still take it to mean solely for Wizard, but it could easily be interpreted as class-regardless.
Man I love this site: Can a specialist wizard multiclass to cast spells from his prohibited schools? (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/19727/4563) (short answer: yes, according to Complete Arcane).

[Peelee]

Man I love this site: Can a specialist wizard multiclass to cast spells from his prohibited schools? (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/19727/4563) (short answer: yes, according to Complete Arcane).

You live up to your name quite well, good sir!