Happy Monkday

[Karnith]

Karnith: Well, that one is potentially possible (if DM fiat improbable). Though I seem to recall there being a race of beings that hunt down wish-users/abusers. Do you remember what they are called?
Well, generally discussions of RAW assume no DM intervention (because it's not written into most rules, obviously). And while I'm not sure about what creature specifically would hunt down wish-users, I'd bet that it'd be an inevitable of some sort (this is probably a question to direct to afroakuma's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272393&page=12)). Which would be good news for our wish-abuser, because they tend to be easy opponents when you have infinite wishes on your side.

Other stupid loops/things in core that work by RAW:
-Shapechange into a Shambling Mound and spend your first-level spells on Shocking Grasp to get free Constitution bonuses
-Alternate castings of Polymorph Any Object and Awaken (requires two characters) on an animal to give it arbitrarily high HD and charisma (and make it friendly towards you).
-Do the Wight Thing by crafting a whole bunch, getting level drained, and then using restoration to get your XP recovered
-Astral Projection lets you use up all of your consumable items while astrally projected without expending them in the real world, which naturally behooves item abuse (scrolls of Gate, for example)
-Making a simulacrum of anything with Wish as a spell-like ability gives you a wish factory

Almost all of which Chip can do, if he wanted.

Orange Ioun Stone.
Chip also has Spell Power, as it's the first high arcana ability that he got.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Chip also has Spell Power, as it's the first high arcana ability that he got.

Which, just to be clear, means that he can control the Dream Larva, Ioun Stone or not, level 19 or not.

However, when it comes to (the improbable to the point of bordering on absurd) sundering the Orange Ioun Stone, I have to wonder how the Monk is determining targets? Can he manage an Appraise check of 50 (to detect magic)? No, he's a Monk. Does he have a Spellcraft check of 50+caster level to determine the basic properties of a magic item (or a 70+caster level to determine all properties of a magic item)? No, again, he's a Monk. So is he just attacking shiny things? If he's determining targets like a magpie, then I suggest prestidigitation to create some shiny faux-Ioun Stones for him to sunder.

And we should really assume that the Chip Bob is attacking is actually an Astral Projection of Chip, frankly, because why make the commute to work when you can just Astrally Project (unless the Heavenly Accounting service Chip works for has taken a leaf out of Yahoo's book)? So even if he manages to sunder any of Chip's items, the real ones are fine, held safely in Chip's private Demiplane. As is Chip, for that matter.

I do believe that Pickford, earlier in the thread, asked if Wizards get items that 'completely shut down' other classes, like the Green and Lavender Ioun Stone. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But this one spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) completely shuts down our Monk friend, here.

And before anyone complains that Chip hadn't prepared an Astral Projection, do note that its duration is indefinite, so Chip needn't have prepared it that day (or week, or month, or year, frankly).

[mattie_p]

... snip the astral projection shenanigans ...

So, honestly, how do you guys treat astral projection? Because here is what the spell says.


You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation...

If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation...

or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

So you can only cast from the prime, not your private fast-time demiplane.

Even if you could, do you honestly rule or have seen ruled in a game you've played where expendables such as scrolls are used while in astral projection, and then still intact when you end the astral projection? Let's keep TO out of this, shall we?

[Pickford]

Orange Ioun Stone.

You are intentionally ignoring parts of people's arguments in order to prove yourself right. You are committing a Strawman Fallacy every time you post. I'm done with this thread, I'm going to go do something constructive with my time.

It's almost like I never wrote:


Edit: Eldest: Several problems (you were correct that I'm going to point them out however, kudos ) Moving provokes an AoO. For his swan song, Bob destroys Chip's Ioun stone reducing his CL to 20.

But of course, I must just be ignoring peoples arguments.

Story: You fall 150' in the first round, 300' in the second round, it's in the DMG. If Frosty were immune to stun yes, but I wrote that before you metagame morphed into a Necropolitan :smalltongue: Am I now to be held responsible for game mechanics that don't work 'after' you change something? :smallannoyed:

And you didn't mention Fell Drain, you said:


Also, if you want to see what it's like when more sources are allowed, I'll just add Libris Mortis and make Frosty a Necropolitan (drops him to level 9 but totally worth it).

Now he's completely immune to your Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, so you're back to a 0% chance of winning even when you manage to go first. Oh and his attacks also now deal a negative level per round, no save, no SR. Have fun!

Mind reader, I am not.

Eldariel: It's ok, I forgive you :smallamused: Dimensional Lock: "A dimensional lock does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast." Of course this is also a metagame tactic as there's no plausible reason for any character to know what Bob's class composition is (i.e. that he is even capable of going ethereal), only the player can know that. Good metagame tactic though.

Chip can't control the larva, so there's no reason it wouldn't attack Chip first as he was the summoner. Actually there's more reason from Gate to suspect it 'would' attack Chip first and foremost, being annoyed at being called against its will.

That's a DM dependent ruling, so it does not hold true in all cases

Karnith:
Don't inevitables have Wish?
Ah, missed the high arcana, thanks. :smallredface:

The mound isn't exactly a loop, and it only lasts as long as the Shapechange/1hour per point.

Beyond Awaken being a Druid class spell only, Polymorph any Object would require an equal or lower int. And the HD factors into the will save the player has to make for Awaken to take effect. So There 'is' an HD cap and it's not arbitrary.

Do the Wight thing doesn't work either. Restoration returns you to the minimum xp of the levels lost. So if a character at 3rd burns crafting xp (but not enough to drop a level) and is drained then restored...they lose all the xp they still had keeping them more than the bare minimum of 3rd. Similarly, if they burn enough crafting xp to drop to 2nd, and then get level drained to 1st and restored to 2nd...they lose all the xp they had and have the bare minimum for 2nd. How is that doing anything but losing the spare experience? Is the misconception that level drain removes xp?

Yes on the Astral Projection...however you can be killed by a single force attack (cord is incorporeal and force attacks damages incorporeal things). I can't find anything about destroying the cord in the DMG other than the description of what can harm incorporeal things...any ideas?

I suppose, you do have to have a 'part' of the creature however. How many Efreeti are giving away parts of their bodies to Wizards? Seems constrained to the realm of fantasy more than actual plan.

Edit:
Kalaska: There's a floating stone around Chip's head, given that the Monk has an ioun stone it doesn't require any leap to consider that it's A) valuable, and B) magical and C) probably something worth destroying/stealing. p.s. Most magic items glow, so Arcane Sight is generally just for figuring out their properties and not much more. Spellcraft is largely useful for determining what spells are being cast or have been cast, and not a whole lot more. It's like Survival for magic.

Astral Projection is risky because anyone with a force effect can presumably kill you. Of course, this is just going on the cord being incorporeal and force effects functioning on incorporeal objects. If you know of where there are specifics for what can (or better, can't) harm the cord, that would be useful.

Again, if there was a cord (assuming no text proves otherwise) Bob could ki blast the cord killing Chip instantly. :smallcool:

edit: Mattie: Good points, but if they were on another plane, what's to stop the Monk from destroying the cord with a force effect? I'd like to see some evidence on this.

[Story]

It's almost like I never wrote:

Story: You fall 150' in the first round, 300' in the second round, it's in the DMG. If Frosty were immune to stun yes, but I wrote that before you metagame morphed into a Necropolitan :smalltongue: Am I now to be held responsible for game mechanics that don't work 'after' you change something? :smallannoyed:


A literal reading of the rules indicates that it only applies to creature that are flying but unable to maintain the minimum forward velocity. And that the falling occurs on your turn.

But since the entire falling rules are vague, it's something you'd need to get a DM ruling on in practice.




Edit:
Kalaska: There's a floating stone around Chip's head, given that the Monk has an ioun stone it doesn't require any leap to consider that it's A) valuable, and B) magical and C) probably something worth destroying/stealing. p.s. Most magic items glow, so Arcane Sight is generally just for figuring out their properties and not much more. Spellcraft is largely useful for determining what spells are being cast or have been cast, and not a whole lot more. It's like Survival for magic.

Again, if there was a cord (assuming no text proves otherwise) Bob could ki blast the cord killing Chip instantly. :smallcool:

edit: Mattie: Good points, but if they were on another plane, what's to stop the Monk from destroying the cord with a force effect? I'd like to see some evidence on this.

For the last time, Gate explicitly says the creature can be controlled. But then again, you're ignoring the explicit text of Foresight already.

As for the Ioun Stone, what are you going to do when there are several dozen stones floating around, all visually identical?

And few things can destroy a silver cord, Monk not being among them. A Wizard could shapeshift/gate an Astral Dreadnought or Githyanki to do it, but mundanes are completely out of luck.

[Augmental]

Astral Projection is risky because anyone with a force effect can presumably kill you. Of course, this is just going on the cord being incorporeal and force effects functioning on incorporeal objects. If you know of where there are specifics for what can (or better, can't) harm the cord, that would be useful.

An Astral Projection cord can only be destroyed by a githyanki silver sword, which I believe is a minor artifact.

[Crinias]

The only three things that can destroy an Astral Cord in 3.X are:

Psychic Storms (Manual of the Planes, Astral Plane only)

Astral Dreadnought (A CR 17 monstrosity that only roams the Astral Plane; again, Manual of the Planes)

Githyanki Silver Swords (the one more likely to be seen by a wizard in the Material Plane)

These impressive weapons are typically carried by githyanki combatants of 9th level and higher. Of githyanki make, a silver sword is a +1 silvered greatsword that looks much like a standard weapon while still in its sheath. But when drawn, the silver sword transforms into a column of silvery liquid, altering the weapon’s balance round by round as the blade’s shape flows and shimmers. A silver sword has the additional quality of reaching into the minds of the foes it strikes, disrupting their psionic powers. A target hit by the weapon must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or lose any psionic abilities for 1d4 rounds.

High-level githyanki often take the Improved Sunder feat, using their silver swords to attack astral travelers’ silver cords (see the astral projection spell, page 201 of the Player ’s Handbook). The normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with the owner’s AC, hardness 10, and 20 hit points. It is rumored that each githyanki warrior has but one silver sword, and if the weapon is lost or stolen, the githyanki must seek it out at all costs or be killed by its superiors. That may be only a legend, but githyanki have been known to exact terrible revenge upon those who steal their silver swords or win them in battle.

Some silver swords (belonging to particularly high-level githyanki) have additional enhancements. Enhancing a silver sword is just like working with any other weapon that has existing abilities. A normal githyanki silver sword is treated as having a +2 enhancement for this purpose: +1 for its bonus on attack and damage rolls and another +1 for the sword’s antipsionic ability.

[Pickford]

A literal reading of the rules indicates that it only applies to creature that are flying but unable to maintain the minimum forward velocity. And that the falling occurs on your turn.

But since the entire falling rules are vague, it's something you'd need to get a DM ruling on in practice.

It's the only place in the rules that lists falling speed so presumably it applies to anyone in the air who can't maintain momentum. (Flying is just learning the miss the ground right? ;))


For the last time, Gate explicitly says the creature can be controlled. But then again, you're ignoring the explicit text of Foresight already.

As for the Ioun Stone, what are you going to do when there are several dozen stones floating around, all visually identical?

And few things can destroy a silver cord, Monk not being among them. A Wizard could shapeshift/gate an Astral Dreadnought or Githyanki to do it, but mundanes are completely out of luck.

Gate says the creature can be controlled only if it's HD don't exceed your CL x 2. I was suggesting if you cast gate to call the creature (and we're starting with 20th level characters) the xp cost would drop you 1 level to 19th x 2 = 38, not 40. (too low) Karnith helpfully pointed out she'd still be CL 20 courtesy of the high arcana though, so Bob will just have to invest in a wand of protection from evil cast before the battle.

There's only one ioun stone so your question is moot.

Cite text stating what can't damage the cord. It's incorporeal, so alot of things, but force effects are one of those things unless there explicit text stating otherwise. Monks are in luck.

edit: The silver sword only makes the cord tangible, it doesn't prevent things that can already target the incorporeal invalid. Useful to know that works too though.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel: It's ok, I forgive you :smallamused: Dimensional Lock: "A dimensional lock does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast." Of course this is also a metagame tactic as there's no plausible reason for any character to know what Bob's class composition is (i.e. that he is even capable of going ethereal), only the player can know that. Good metagame tactic though.

*shrug* Monks tend to be fairly easy to identify as the guys who carry few-to-no weapons or armor, move really fast, are incapable of real magic but have some pseudo-magical abilities, etc.

Wizards have pretty high Knowledges so I don't doubt his ability to roll Knowledge: Local to identify the class. At the very least he can determine that he's not a spellcaster (no buffs in effect) or a warrior (no visible weapons or armor).


Chip can't control the larva, so there's no reason it wouldn't attack Chip first as he was the summoner. Actually there's more reason from Gate to suspect it 'would' attack Chip first and foremost, being annoyed at being called against its will.

He can. Caster Level 20+ (which he still has if you destroy just the right Ioun Stone and he loses a level) allows control of a HD 40 creature.
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)
"Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time."

[Karnith]

Even if you could, do you honestly rule or have seen ruled in a game you've played where expendables such as scrolls are used while in astral projection, and then still intact when you end the astral projection? Let's keep TO out of this, shall we?
Sorry if I made it seem like I was endorsing abusing Astral Projection when I was listing off stupid RAW things. I purposefully left it out of Chip's stats (even though I believe he has it as a spell known) because using it is generally just "I'm immortal now, thanks for playing."


Don't inevitables have Wish?
Some do (varakhuts, from the Fiend Folio, for example), but I'm not sure which inevitable would get sent out to punish a person abusing wishes.


The mound isn't exactly a loop, and it only lasts as long as the Shapechange/1hour per point.Well, getting arbitrarily high ability scores may not be considered a loop, per say, but it's still silly.

Beyond Awaken being a Druid class spell only, Polymorph any Object would require an equal or lower int. And the HD factors into the will save the player has to make for Awaken to take effect. So There 'is' an HD cap and it's not arbitrary.
An awakened wolf (for example) being PoA'ed into a regular wolf is actually permanent - same kingdom (+5), same class (+2), and same size (+2) - regardless of its intelligence score. I had missed the caster needing to make the will save, though (because, frankly, that never happens). You can pretty easily buff Will saves to outrageous levels, though.

(Also, I did note that it would require two characters.)

Do the Wight thing doesn't work either. Restoration returns you to the minimum xp of the levels lost. So if a character at 3rd burns crafting xp (but not enough to drop a level) and is drained then restored...they lose all the xp they still had keeping them more than the bare minimum of 3rd. Similarly, if they burn enough crafting xp to drop to 2nd, and then get level drained to 1st and restored to 2nd...they lose all the xp they had and have the bare minimum for 2nd. How is that doing anything but losing the spare experience? Is the misconception that level drain removes xp?
I actually got the process wrong (I wasn't doing the wight thing, as it were). Sorry about that. You take the negative level first, and fail your saving throw voluntarily. You're now level-drained. Then you craft stuff, using XP up to the point where you've got the minimum XP for your (new, reduced) level. Then cast restoration. Since restoration sets your XP at the minimum of the level that you got restored to, your XP is back.

Also, level drain does remove XP, though the rules are typically unhelpful in pointing this out. Per the SRD on negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) :

Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
And for rules pertaining to when a character loses a level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss):

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

Yes on the Astral Projection...however you can be killed by a single force attack (cord is incorporeal and force attacks damages incorporeal things). I can't find anything about destroying the cord in the DMG other than the description of what can harm incorporeal things...any ideas?
Well, if you're just using Astral Projection for item abuse, then you're probably going to project onto the Astral Plane, and then immediately manifesting back onto the Material Plane (where your body is).

As to your other question, I know that Githyanki silver swords are explicitly allowed to destroy astral cords, but I'm not sure about anything else.

I suppose, you do have to have a 'part' of the creature however. How many Efreeti are giving away parts of their bodies to Wizards? Seems constrained to the realm of fantasy more than actual plan.
The usual way (or at least what I do when I play necromancers who need bodies to animate) is to Planar Bind an outsider into a room full of traps. Like explosive runes or something. Also, thanks to the poor wording on the spell component pouch, you're assumed to have one anyway since the snow and piece of a creature have no listed cost.

Cite text stating what can't damage the cord. It's incorporeal, so alot of things, but force effects are one of those things unless there explicit text stating otherwise. Monks are in luck.
Well, since it has no stats and there is no listed way to destroy it (silver swords aside), you'd be hard-pressed to do anything to a silver cord, since it has no AC, no HP, no size, or anything else. I also love that trying to find out how to affect astral cords requires referencing three different books at once.

[Crinias]

For the sake of completeness, I'll also post this:

(I know MotP is 3.0 but since no other source in 3.5 aside from the actual spell description of Astral Projection speaks of astral cords, I think it's valid. Well, either way there's a lot of debate about it)

Manual of the Planes, page 49

Silver Cord
An astral form may always return to its original body as a standard action. When an astrally projecting form passes through a color pool or other portal, the silver cord bonds with the portal, allowing the traveler to return to the original body even if the pool or portal has properties such as one-way transit that would otherwise prevent such movement.

Severing the silver cord that connects the form to the main body kills an astral traveler’s normal body. The cord usually appears at the base of an individual’s skull and stretches back 5 feet before merging with the Astral Plane.

Only a few circumstances, such as the psychic wind, an attack from an astral dreadnought, or a blow from a powerful githyanki sword, can sever this cord. Monsters, items, and circumstances cannot sever a silver cord unless this ability is specifically noted. An astral traveler is automatically aware if his or her silver cord is threatened—but not automatically warned if his or her original body is threatened, so many leave guardians or spells to protect the original body or alert the owner if something threatens it.

Emphasis mine.

[Eldariel]

Gate says the creature can be controlled only if it's HD don't exceed your CL x 2. I was suggesting if you cast gate to call the creature (and we're starting with 20th level characters) the xp cost would drop you 1 level to 19th x 2 = 38, not 40. (too low) Karnith helpfully pointed out she'd still be CL 20 courtesy of the high arcana though, so Bob will just have to invest in a wand of protection from evil cast before the battle.

Protection from Evil only helps against summoned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning), not called (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling) creatures. Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) to call a creature is calling, so Pro Evil is useless (well, I guess it gives you protection from Worst Nightmare but it's so trivially easy for Wizard to dispel if it really matters [it doesn't, Monk still dies to full attack] that it's not really worth considering).

Even if you somehow were able to use it before the fight, it would be good for +2 AC (still about 10 too little for it to miss on anything but 1). Not to even mention, the Wizard of course will be able to detect your buffs so he can call different creatures if that's really important.

EDIT: Actually, even if it were a Summon, Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) has this line:
"Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature."

So it would be useless regardless since a Wand's CL is 1 and Dream Larva has SR 44

[Eldest]

Boots of teleportation (listed on my inventory) and Sun School (listed in my feats).

edit: Story: So it's a self-imposed limit? :smallconfused: And I'm responsible for this how? :smallannoyed:

Edit: Eldest: Several problems (you were correct that I'm going to point them out however, kudos :smalltongue: ) Moving provokes an AoO. For his swan song, Bob destroys Chip's Ioun stone reducing his CL to 20.

The Dream Larva according to the SRD 'starts' at 41 HD. Not 40. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm

One further, Will o Wisp cannot cast spells.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Will-O'-Wisp
They lack the strong clear voice required to cast spells.

So the larva is neither controllable, nor can the wisped wizard even cast the spell.

In reverse order, Chip has a +1 caster level due to the first Arcana he took. Therefore his CL is 20 and is still able to control said Larva.

Will O Wisps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm) are explicitly called out as being able to speak. No adjective other than "ghostly" is used to describe the voice, which does not mean it is not strong. Should you state that since it does not say it is a strong voice, it is not a strong voice, I will point out that nowhere in the rules does it say that Humans specifically can breath, and so Bob will start to suffocate in short order. In addition, I made a mistake: the form of a Shadow was chosen. As Chip is now incorporeal, you miss the sunder attempt. Chip then double moves upward, as Shadows (the monsters) cannot speak intelligently. Chip's CL is still 22, and he does not have FoM active. He is 80 feet above the ground. Gate has not yet been cast, so Chip is level 20 still. It is Bob's move.

I apologize for the confusion. I believe that addresses all of your points.

Edit: To avoid repeatably searching for them, here are Chip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14904451&postcount=158) and Bob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14905593&postcount=160). In addition, I would recomend not using anything but the SRD when possible, as is the case for the Will O Wisp.
Edit the Second: Could you do me a favor and edit in Bob's feats into that listing?
Edit the Third: Could you also add his skills? It matters.

[Flickerdart]

Pickford's ignorance of the rules shines yet again - it is impossible to lose a level through spending XP.

[Lans]

Yes, because clearly no wizard has ever heard of Power Word Pain, which would one shot any monk at level 1, no save. Not to mention a dozen other possibilities. And of course, it would be downright wasteful for a wizard to bother learning any spell that boosts saving throws, or buy an item that does that.
What if the monk was immune to mind affecting effects?

skipped 16 pages I apoligize if this has been addressed, but considering how easy it is to obtain, and how much it applies too it should be addressed

[Karnith]

What if the monk was immune to mind affecting effects?
At level 1? Are there many races that give that?

[Spuddles]

At level 1? Are there many races that give that?

Maybe the monk had a partially charged wand of Protection from Evil?

[Karnith]

Maybe the monk had a partially charged wand of Protection from Evil?
I recognize the sarcasm (I've made more than a few partially-charged wand jokes myself), but Protection from Evil wouldn't work; it only protects against effects that would possess the creature or that attempt to exercise control over the creature. Power Word: Pain, while it is an Enchantment (compulsion) effect, does not grant the caster "ongoing control over the subject," as Protection from Evil specifies.

[Lans]

At level 1? Are there many races that give that?

Its a feat, you get -4 to wisdom, immunity to mind affecting effects, and the ability to add your level to a will save every 5 rounds. Has a prereq feat, but you can just worship Cthulu to get it

Willing Deformity(madness) its in the book of elder evils, it took me a while to think of what it was. It shuts down a lot of low level wizard save or dies, leaving them actually needing to use specific builds, like launching a colossal bolt or throwing 5d6 touch attacks. Or going first, enlarge person, reach weapon+AJaunt

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So, honestly, how do you guys treat astral projection? Because here is what the spell says.


You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation...

If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation...

or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

So you can only cast from the prime, not your private fast-time demiplane.

The spell assumes one is casting from the prime material, but there is nothing in the spell to limit one to casting it from the prime material. But even if we were to limit Chip to casting it on the prime material, there's nothing stopping him from casting it, popping back to the prime material from the astral, and then taking his physical body to their private demiplane. And it needn't be a flowing-time place - it just needs to be (and is easily made) private.


Even if you could, do you honestly rule or have seen ruled in a game you've played where expendables such as scrolls are used while in astral projection, and then still intact when you end the astral projection? Let's keep TO out of this, shall we?

As a matter of fact, yes, I have been allowed to use Astral Projection in a game in this way (in fact, I've used it in several, as it so happens). And while I admit it would seem that I tend to play at a higher level of optimization than many in this thread, I must protest the suggestion that to use Astral Projection thus is T.O. Yes it is a powerful spell, but isn't that kind of the point of this whole discussion? That the Wizard has class features which are stronger than entire mundane classes?


Edit:
Kalaska: There's a floating stone around Chip's head, given that the Monk has an ioun stone it doesn't require any leap to consider that it's A) valuable, and B) magical and C) probably something worth destroying/stealing. p.s. Most magic items glow, so Arcane Sight is generally just for figuring out their properties and not much more. Spellcraft is largely useful for determining what spells are being cast or have been cast, and not a whole lot more. It's like Survival for magic.

The skill checks I mentioned are from the uses of Epic Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm), specifically those for Appraise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#appraise), which allows a character to "sense magical auras in objects" with a DC50 check, and Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft), which allows a character to "Identify Basic Property of Magic Item" with a DC50+Caster Level check and to "Identify All Properties of Magic Item" with a DC70+Caster Level check. Also, please cite your source that states "most magical items glow." Furthermore, looking at Bob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14905593&postcount=160), I'm not seeing Arcane Sight, so he'll have some trouble distinguishing between the real Ioun Stone(s) and the fake ones Chip made with Prestidigitation, unless he can hit the above mentioned Skill Checks.


Astral Projection is risky because anyone with a force effect can presumably kill you. Of course, this is just going on the cord being incorporeal and force effects functioning on incorporeal objects. If you know of where there are specifics for what can (or better, can't) harm the cord, that would be useful.

Again, if there was a cord (assuming no text proves otherwise) Bob could ki blast the cord killing Chip instantly. :smallcool:


You are the only one presuming that "anyone with a force effect can...kill [the Astral Projecting character]." The cord, as has been previously mentioned, is immune to all things which do not explicitly mention can damage it (thanks for the relevant rules text Crinias (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14925954&postcount=511)). So, nope, the Monk, even with force effects, cannot kill the Astral Projecting Chip.

[Randomguy]

Edit for feats:
H:Power Attack
1st: Weapon Finesse
1st Monk1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1st Monk2: Stunning Fist
2nd Monk: Fiery Fist
3rd: Combat Expertise
6th monk: Ki Blast
6th: Improved Sunder
9th: Eagle Claw Attack
12th: Improved Disarm
15th: Improved Grapple
18th: Sun School

Weapon finesse requires +1 BAB as a prereq. You don't qualify for it at 1st level. This is easily fixed by taking Improved Grapple at level 1 instead and taking Weapon Finesse at 15th level. There's an ACF that gets a monk Weapon Finesse at level 1, but it replaces the bonus feat, so it makes stunning fist hard to get.

You know, I think Bob is a perfect example of what's wrong with monks. You've got a character intended for melee with abilities that make him bad at melee. Compared to a fighter, Bob has much better defences against casters (higher saves and touch AC). However, even counting weapon finesse, Bob's attack bonus is only +25, while a level 20 fighter with max strength, weapon finesse and a +5 greatsword would have +39 (with no other attack boosters whatsoever). That's why Flurry of Blows is often called Flurry of Misses. And unless my math is wrong, he's only doing on average 10 damage a hit, (13.5 if he uses fiery fist) while the aforementioned fighter with would be doing at least an average of 31.5 damage in a hit.

The problem is that not only does bob have only 3/4 BAB, but he's also MAD: He needs wisdom for monk abilities, dex because he's forced to go unarmoured, constitution in order to not die and strength to do damage. A fighter would need only Strength and constitution, and only 12 dex. Bob's just spread too thin.

If we were to apply one of the standard monk fixes, which is Full BAB and Dex to attack and damage instead of strength, then Bob's to-hit jumps up to +30 and his damage jumps to 15 a hit. He also gets an extra attack, an extra feat (since weapon finesse is now irrelevant) and can ditch his belt of giant strength in exchange for something more useful.
A different monk fix would add both wis and dex to both to hit and damage (but it wouldn't give full BAB). This one would give +35 to hit and an average of 25 damage a hit, which is becoming much more respectable.


As for Chip vs. Bob, even if you give Bob the edge in the argument about MoP, then Chip can still use the following spells in his typical spells prepared to devestating effect: Mirror Image, Telekinisis (violent thrust on objects or weapons into Bob), Haste (as a self buff to beat stuffings out of Bob in melee), Extended Greater Invisibility, Reverse Gravity, Wall of Iron/Stone/Ice/Force, Disintegrate (to form a pit under Bob), Waves of Exhaustion, Forcecage + Dimension lock, Grasping Hand, Clenched Fist, Crushing Hand, Shapechange, Disjunction and Gate.

Personally I'd use the last 2 as last resorts, because disjunction destroys loot and Gate has an xp cost. You could always by a scroll, though, but I dislike consumables.

[Spuddles]

I recognize the sarcasm (I've made more than a few partially-charged wand jokes myself), but Protection from Evil wouldn't work; it only protects against effects that would possess the creature or that attempt to exercise control over the creature. Power Word: Pain, while it is an Enchantment (compulsion) effect, does not grant the caster "ongoing control over the subject," as Protection from Evil specifies.

Of course it won't. A level 1 wand of protection from evil won't protect you from a Dream Larva, either. How a monk with no ranks in knowledge arcana, planes, or spellcraft knows to use a wand of protection from evil prior to combat... anyone want to explain that to me?

Oh wait, maybe it's for the same reasons a wizard will dimensionally lock a threatening outsider at level 20 because everyone teleports at level 20, especially outsiders. And the wizard actually has +yes to skills like knowledge planes & spellcraft.

[mattie_p]

The spell assumes one is casting from the prime material, but there is nothing in the spell to limit one to casting it from the prime material. But even if we were to limit Chip to casting it on the prime material, there's nothing stopping him from casting it, popping back to the prime material from the astral, and then taking his physical body to their private demiplane. And it needn't be a flowing-time place - it just needs to be (and is easily made) private.

Is there any evidence that the spell can be cast from anywhere else? There are three references within the spell description that the body remains on the PMP.


As a matter of fact, yes, I have been allowed to use Astral Projection in a game in this way (in fact, I've used it in several, as it so happens). And while I admit it would seem that I tend to play at a higher level of optimization than many in this thread, I must protest the suggestion that to use Astral Projection thus is T.O. Yes it is a powerful spell, but isn't that kind of the point of this whole discussion? That the Wizard has class features which are stronger than entire mundane classes?

Well, that is the point. The wizard does have class features more powerful than the entire mundane universe. So pick another one that isn't as abusive, (IMO). Gate is fine, especially since we're only calling a dreamworm, and not chain-gating solars.

Hey, it looks like Bob has an average of 132 HP, looks about right for Power Word: Stun (Save: No; SR: Yes - but I think we already showed we could overcome his SR, right?)

[The Trickster]

Wow...I stop looking for a couple of days and BAM! 18 pages!

Does...this normally happen here? :smalltongue:

I have an idea. Most of the arguments (and I'll admit, I haven't read all of them) seem to stem around magic items. Why? Even with WBL, it's not fair too assume that each person will be able to obtain each item. Even if they could, having a Monk win the battle because he has certain magic items (which, ironically enough, he could have gotten from a wizard :smalltongue:) seems to miss the point.

In chemistry, when we want to compare a chemical or substance to another, we want to remove any variables that could effect the comparison (errors, noise, matrix effects, etc). Why not do that here? If we take the equation;

Monk + A bunch of Monk items Vs. Wizard + A bunch of Wizard items

It is not fair to say that A bunch of Monk items are equal to A bunch of Wizard items, so it would be wise to just remove them, giving us the equation;

Monk Vs. Wizard

So, I propose this option. There are four scenarios;

A) Monk jumps Wizard.
B) Wizard jumps Monk.
C) Both the Monk and Wizard agree to engage in combat. (In this case, they know they will be fighting each other and roll initiative).
D) The Monk and Wizard happen to bump into each other and...they are from different countries who hate each other, so they attack. (In this case, they do not know they will be fighting each other, and they roll initiative).

Assume the each class has only mundane items (spell book, weapons, clothing, etc).

What would happen in each situation?

[Rejusu]

Thunndarr: You are mistaken on several counts. First, warning would be given if impending danger were to befall Chip. In fact, Foresight would trigger as soon as Chip does something to 'harm' Chip. You are also mistaken that this is an interpretation. I am simply not adding benefits not explicitly given in the spell text. The spell gives 3 examples of what constitutes danger all involve the threat of damage to the character and not danger to their items. Until I declare an attack on Chip and only on Chip there is simply no warning.

If you wish to complain that I'm exploiting a glaring flaw in the spell...then you'd be correct. I am exploiting it to its utmost and it works. :smallamused:

No it does not work. You only think it does because you're ignoring the most important part of the spell:
You are never surprised or flat-footed.

So while by your argument you could get a surprise round against the ring, who does not gain the benefit of foresight this is not the same as gaining a surprise round against Chip. Once you initiate the encounter it triggers initiative. The ring is surprised and can't act this round, Chip (who is a participant in the encounter by virtue of wearing the ring) is not surprised and can act this round. Because quite simply Chip is never surprised. You can try and play with obtuse and biased interpretations of harm and danger until the cows come home. But ultimately it is irrelevant, the rest of the spell may as well be fluff. Because the rules as written are that Chip is never surprised. His items may be, but he is not. And any attempted attacks against his items will initiate an encounter, and he will not be surprised.

You may not be adding benefits, but you're explicitly ignoring the benefits the spell does give.


Chip is what we have to work with and he can't tumble having 0 ranks in it. Tumble is a trained skill only. Dream Larva is 41 HD minimum, not 40. Chip can still gate it (for reasons I'm not going to go into) ...but are you sure you want to have Chip gate in a monster that will instantly kill him? The first ability of the Dream Larva is not discriminitory. Chip will have to pass a DC 43 will save (which he is incapable of passing) and die instantly. Now, Bob on the other hand 'can' pass a DC 43 will save. So I suppose Chip could kill himself in the mere hope of taking Bob with him...but this is unlikely as the Dream Larva can return once Chip is dead. So more likely than not Bob would simply see Chip go pale and die for no apparent reason.

The Dream Larva also cannot harm things that are Ethereal (see: Bob) and if Bob were to take away the item allowing Chip to control the Dream Larva (assuming for a moment that Chip somehow found a way 'not' to die)...then it would be out of Chip's control and likely eat him. :smalltongue:

Here I see you misreading the monster entry for Dream Larva, misreading Chips character sheet, and misreading the spell description for Gate. Or not reading at all as the case may be. As has already been pointed out Dream Larva is 40HD minimum, Chip is immune due to having the presence of mind to... blank his mind (Chip did indeed find a way 'not' to die), and Gate requires no item in order to control the summoned creature so where you got this notion from I have no idea. Even if it did require an item once again you're resorting to metagaming for a solution. Spellcraft is cross-class for Bob so it's unlikely he's invested in it. Speaking of which Bob has no skills, you accuse everyone else of playing Schrodingers Wizard yet you seem to be playing Schrodingers Monk. You only gained the FoM ring after it was pointed out to you that you might need it (Schrodingers magic item).

Either way it's safe enough to say that Bob has no idea how Gate functions. Maybe that's why he thinks it requires an item to control the creature?


That contingency fails lacking a destination. (i.e. You teleport...nowhere.) p.s. Free actions happen on Chip's turn. And that means Chip can only talk on his turn.

Which would matter if I used Teleport for the contingency. However I specified Dimension Door. I'd reccomend actually reading spell descriptions before you reply. Dimension door does not require a specific destination, direction and distance are sufficient (and the contingency specifies a random destination and maximum range) so no the contingency does not fail. The only real requirements for dimension door is that it be a spot within range and that it be unoccupied. And the second condition doesn't cause the spell to fail, it merely shunts you to another spot within 100ft.

Interestingly I was considering using Teleport, but Chip doesn't have it in his spell book. Had I used Teleport though a particular destination would have been specified. However I did not, you can't argue Schrodingers Wizard is in play. I made the contingency quite clear and haven't changed it since I posted it.

Also Chip is not talking, the contingency specifies that he need only think the panic word. Which ensures he can do it while silenced or pinned. Secondly being a purely mental action it can be done as an immediate action ie. not on Chips turn. The imminent death condition or knocked unconscious require no action as once those conditions are met the contingency (and accompanying spell) are triggered immediately. Finally since it's doubtful that after spending the first round initiating the grapple Bob will be able to kill Chip. Chip will get his turn, initiate the contingency (if he hasn't already) and dimension door away. Bob could try and follow, but considering his abundant step can only take him 2/3rds the distance and he has no idea where Chip has gone it would be kind of futile.


Sith Happens: A wizard with +6 spot modifier isn't going to see anyone if they're more than 60' off the ground (which means avoiding some trees, mountains, random arrows from bandits) and even if they do fly low...if there are trees (and there's no reason to think there aren't) those easily provide cover/concealment. That distance is within range of the Monk's ranged attacks. Conveniently. :smallbiggrin: Spotting isn't the Wizards strength (that would be knowledge skills).

That's because Wizards don't rely on mundane senses, magical senses are superior. So they don't really need a good spot check to see anyone. Also does Bob actually have any ranks in Hide?


Rejusu: No, I suggested that a grappled Wizard is a dead in the water Wizard. The Wizard does (obviously) have a worse grapple score. And the Monk can do 5 grapple actions in a turn, the Wizard only 2. Without a ring of freedom of movement that means the Wizard is in trouble 'if' the grapple happens.

No, a pinned Wizard is a Wizard dead in the water, a grappled wizard can still cast spells with verbal components. And that's only if they don't have a contingency (highly unlikely) or can't cast without speaking (more likely). Also in his Solar form Chip has a pretty reasonably grapple score so you can't be guaranteed success. Even with 5 rolls. Remember that at least one of those will be needed to initiate the grapple, and another will be needed to initiate the pin. Even if Bob grapples Chip it's pointless unless he can pin him too.


Foresight prohibits attacks on Chip. Show a citation that indicates items are part of Chip.

As already noted this is irrelevant. The ring is surprised, Chip is not. Chip acts normally during the surprise round. Since he's wearing the ring, it moves with him.


MoP goes away once it's used. So 'a' grapple attack gets resisted, that's not going to work on the next 4 that turn. MoP also doesn't apply to any part of Sunder (which makes Sunder that much more fun).

Again, just one of his defences. Plus he doesn't need to use it to resist the grapple, he only needs to resist or escape the pin. It's only a pin that stops him casting, a grapple is largely irrelevant. And as I said he could simply apply it to his spot check and see the silly Monk before he even gets into range.


No you are mistaken, a wizard with +6 spot specifically can't make a spot check out that far. It's outside the realm of possibility, -1 to check for every 10' distance.

Bob is what... 180' away? Unless I'm missing something that's the max distance he can charge from. Spot is opposed by Hide. Since you're charging that's -20 to your Hide check and -18 to the Wizards Spot for distance. Now since Bob has an awful Int score he'll only have enough skill ranks at 20th level to max three skills. If we allow you to play Schrodingers Monk and say that Hide is one of those then Bobs total Hide is +32 (23 ranks, 9 Dex). After penalties that works out to a +12, after penalties Chips Spot is -12 (funny how that works out). So yes, he can't make that spot check with his normal modifier. However did you not read the part about how Chip could simply apply MoP to his spot? Because that brings his net total up to +10. Meaning that him successfully making the spot check is now far within the realm of possibility.

Not that Chip needs to make the spot check, he's never surprised after all.


Potential is not actuality. Schroedinger's Cat for example is a hypothetical to demostrate that an object can exist in two states until it is observed. (i.e. One of being both Alive and Not Alive.) Wizard's spell slots fulfill a similar function in that until they are filled they do have bounding, limitless potential. However these spell slots have been filled and are no longer versatile in the way you suggest.

Except of course they can refill those slots every single day. The cat and the Wizard are similar in that once you open the box the waveform collapses, but different in the sense that the Wizards waveform reforms after 8 hours rest. If you open a box with a cat in it and it's dead one day, it's probably going to be dead the next day. Meanwhile the Wizard may never be the same two days running, even when observed. Can the Monk swap out his class features daily? That's what I mean by versatility.

And no potential can be actuality, when said potential is easily realised.



Monks have 10 feat slots and many potential weapon combinations, this does not even include racial combinations. There is more variation possible in Monks (or any class) than the majority of players will ever actually see characters in games.

Three of those feat slots only give a choice of two feats to put in them. That's 8 possible combinations on the bonus feats alone. The other seven feat slots are common not only to all classes but all creatures with hit die. The Monk may get 10 feats, however the Wizard however goes up to 11 :smallsmile:. Except his bonus feats can be selected from a pool of around 17 different feats each time. Now I'm not entirely sure how to work out the number of possible combinations (since at each level there'll be a smaller pool to choose from, and there's no point counting the same set of feats taken in a different order) however I know it's an order of magnitude larger than 8. Oh, and we haven't even brought spells into our calculations yet.

Also the humble Fighter has far more options, since his bonus feats alone go up to eleven. Giving him eighteen feats in total, each of which can be selected from a much larger list than the Monks. Oh, and we're only considering Core for the Fighter and Wizards bonus feats. They have a lot more than that from other sources. Discussing Feats was an incredibly poor choice of argument.

Weapon combinations? Seriously? We're talking about a class who's prime schtick is unarmed combat.


Contact Other Plane is 20 questions in which the answers may be lies and it is impossible to know for certain which is which.

So? It still offers valuable information. And Chip with his mighty intellect can reliably contact a greater deity. Since the check for whether you lose Int/Cha is an ability check and since ability checks follow the same rules as skill checks (ability checks are treated as untrained skill checks) for taking 10/20 Chip can merely take 10 (sitting comfortably in his armchair in his mansion he's neither threatened nor distracted) and automatically succeed. A greater deity only has a 10% chance of lying, a 2% chance of not knowing the answer and an 88% chance of giving the right answer. Eleven questions with a 90% chance of a truthful (a "don't know" is still truthful) answer are pretty good odds. Plus thanks to the bizarre quirks of RAW nothing prevents you from asking the same question twice. Of course that's straying a bit too close to metagaming (since Chip has no idea what the odds of a deity lying are, and has no reason to ask the same question twice) for my tastes, and that's your territory.

Of course I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Upon being informed that the following day he'd be jumped by a suicidal Monk Chip must have assumed the deity was having him on. After all what kind of Monk would be so foolish?


Prying eyes gives very specific examples where it will fail to report in. The eyes are not windows to the soul so even if Bob were a "bloodthirsty mage hunting monk" (which he isn't) it wouldn't do the eyes any good. The only assumption made was that Chip wasn't trying to find and murder the first poorly dressed traveller he came across. That is not exactly a stretch given the description from Karnith of his work. That this outcome is in Bob's favor is immaterial to the question.

All of which involve the eyes being destroyed, going out of range, or expiring. Also it's worth noting that the eyes posess all the knowledge the Wizard does. Since Chip, unlike Bob, actually has ranks in spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) the Monk with the magical arsenal hiding in the tall grass might strike them as suspicious. At any rate the eyes will report in if you command them to before they expire, regardless of whether they find anything. Since when an eye reports in the caster can replay ALL it has seen Chip will become aware of Bob provided at least one of his 1d4+22 eyes has seen him in the 20+ hours they've been combing the area. Regardless of whether the eyes determined he was an enemy or not.

Also considering that Bob is trying to find and murder the first Wizard he comes across, it's a bit of a double standard that Chip isn't allowed the same luxury. Yet again, you're crafting the situation to Bobs advantage. Which makes it all the funnier that he still doesn't have a hope of victory.


Why would Chip randomly activate the one casting of Arcane Sight for no obvious reason? This is metagaming. Same with Detect Magic.

No it isn't. Sundering a ring of FoM despite having no way of identifying it (or even seeing it) is metagaming. Tailoring your items specifically to the kind of character you're trying to beat is metagaming. The majority of Bobs actions have been metagaming. Using detect magic in an unfamiliar and possibly hostile area? That's prudent, and something Wizards and other casters have been doing forever. Heck, using detect magic to investigate a location is downright instinctive.

Story time. I started a new campaign on Sunday. Upon reaching a strange cave the Druid cast detect magic. Now this was a new player, with no experience of the game whatsoever. If it's an action a player would take instinctively then odds are a character would as well. If I were Chip and I could just switch on a mystical arcane sense, then yeah I totally would. As already mentioned though Chip really should have invested in getting it permanencied. However he didn't. But he still has it and detect magic prepared, either of which are suitable to discover Bob. And there's no problem with him using one of them because he still has the other for later if he needs it.

I'm not even sure you know what metagaming is.

Metagaming is where the player uses knowledge they know but their character wouldn't to influence the characters actions. Like knowing the Wizard has a ring of FoM, despite the fact the character has no way to know this. However while I know that Bob is hiding in the grass, Chip does not need to know that to think that casting detect magic would be a good idea to gather information about his surroundings.


Contingency allows 'a' specified trigger, not 3. Not giving an exact direction will fizzle the spell. And as I mentioned earlier, Bob can sunder Chip's bag dropping everything...including the focus statue.

Wrong again. Do you not fact check before you post? Like at all?


You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

Emphasis mine. Note the numerous use of plurals throughout the spell description, and more importantly note that the first bolded section in no way limits you to setting more than one condition. It merely states you can place a spell on yourself that comes into effect under a condition. In no way does that limit you to setting only one condition.

The only restriction on contingency is that the conditions are convoluted or complicated. Which they aren't, they're specific and clear.


You are of course assuming Chip survives, which has yet to be shown even once here. p.s. Spell Turning would reflect Discern Location letting Bob know where Chip is seeing as it's targeted. Best gift ever. :smallsmile: Good try though.

It's been shown numerous times. Just because you choose to ignore them, doesn't mean they aren't there. And spell turning? For a start lets ignore your rod of absorption and your ioun stone. The former requires that Bob hold it night and day, and the latter requires a readied action. So unless Bob is sitting around in paranoid fear those aren't probably going to trigger unless Bob gets lucky. Spell turning also requires you to have it active. It's unclear whether the ring has a duration as the spell does. But it still requires Bob to switch it on.

Of course this requires we ignore the RAW for discern location:

Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location.

Since spell turning is short of a mind blank and a deity there's an argument for the spell going through regardless. However if we humour you then it's worth noting that the ring only reflects the first nine levels of spells. Which means that if Chip were simply to cast another Discern Location (an 8th level spell) the spell would only be partially turned. Since a partially turned spell affects both parties proportionally and since only 1 level of the spell was turned Chip now knows where Bob is.

Bob doesn't know anything now of course, Chip having a mind blank up after all renders him impervious to the spell. But you like to conveniently forget these things don't you? And even if he did, Chip is inside his magnificent mansion so it really makes no difference. Now if Bob were a spellcaster, Chip might be a little scared.

Oh and there's always the other avenue of attack. Chip could always take a leaf out of Bobs book and target an object instead. Except in Chips case it's not metagaming. While Bob is metagaming because he has no way to know that Chip is wearing a ring of FoM under his gloves (that he couldn't identify even if he could see it) there's no such problem with Chip taking a similar tactic. Why?

Chips thought process is thus:
"Hmm, my attempts at scrying this insolent Monk have all failed"
"Perhaps I shall try and divine his location by scrying an object connected with him"
"When he got his filthy hands on me I remember the gloves he was wearing, if I discern the location of those I might find him as well"
"Aha!"

Now if Chip was trying to "Discern Location" before even meeting Bob that would be metagaming. Again it seems to be a concept you don't really understand.


Bob isn't trying to (or going to) harm Chip so no, Chip is not aware until it is too late.

Please actually read what's written. Maybe then you'll stop making these irrelevant points. The wording about "harm" and "danger" is irrelevant. Chip doesn't need to be aware of Bob, the encounter begins when Bob is aware of Chip. Chip is not surprised. His ring is. But Chip isn't. Again I've already gone over this in detail. Read before you reply again on this matter.


Phelix-Mu: It doesn't matter, Teleport can be off by up to 5 miles. Rejusu's plan doesn't work because the spell doesn't work with perfect precision.

Actually it does work, because you don't seem to read with any precision. I stated Dimension Door not Teleport. Dimension Door is different from teleport in that it does not require a clear idea of where you're going. However I've already been over this. Funnily enough Teleport isn't even in Chips spellbook, so it looks like you're the one playing Schrödingers Wizard now.


Rejusu: Inference is not reality. If the spell isn't mentioned as having been done then it didn't get done.

By that extension Bob has no ranks in any skills. You didn't mention any skill ranks, then he didn't get any skill ranks. Similarly he didn't have any feats to begin with and yet you added that later. If you want to disallow the addition that Magnificent Mansion is being maintained (which is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make anyway, what kind of 20th level Wizard doesn't keep his personal safe zone up and running?) then I don't think we should allow Bob any feats. Or that ring of FoM you added later.

You complain about other people pulling shenanigans and yet expect to get away with them yourself?

Plus it's irrelevant. Chip has Rope Trick prepared and can simply use that as a temporary shelter until he's prepared a Magnificent Mansion. It's not like he needs it anyway, he could just fly somewhere inaccessible by foot and Bob still wouldn't be able to touch him.


Tuggyne: No, my strategy doesn't rely on a surprise round. The Monk having the better spot score is assured of seeing the Wizard from further away and being able to act accordingly. Anything I 'did' with that early warning is not really the important thing. Ideally as the Monk I'd just steal all of the Wizard's gear (disarm/sunder actions) and leave to sell it. A wizard without a spellbook or the very expensive rods to extend shapechange and foresight won't be a bother.

No, it relies completely on a surprise round. The only way you've come up with where Bob could perceivably win is pinning him and thus prevent him from casting spells. The only way for you to do this is to sunder his ring of FoM. And the only way you could do that is with an extra round, because you'll need your first actual round (which actually relies on you winning initiative too) to initiate grapple. Why do you need to do all this? Because unless you pin the Wizard immediately after initiating you won't get another opportunity.

If you give the Wizard a chance to act, Bob loses. Chip has so much stuff prepared that Bob can't possibly fend it all off. Nor does Bob have any real way of actually fighting Chip short of the aforementioned tactic. Whenever you state anything you never say how you're going to do it, and just assume that it'd be both possible and successful. Despite the fact that as has been established many times Bob has no way to reach a flying target and both disarm and sunder require Bob to be within melee reach. Despite the fact he has no way of doing so.


Spuddles: You were mistaken in how Chip could do that and that impacts the game. All shapechange suggestions involved turning into something that can't even cast spells which means no gate. And the other suggested gating something that would kill Chip outright and not Bob.

Again. MIND. BLANK. As for the shapechange, it's not like it's necessary for Chip to cast spells after Gate. He can just sit back and watch at this point. Similarly there are MANY possibilities (almost limitless potential after all) for shapechange, odds are we can find one that can cast. And if we can't? No biggy. It's game over for Bob anyway.


BigFau: Chip doesn't even have that spell in his spell list. Way to metagame in response to my mentioning the utility on abundant step and Sun School.

Read! Read the posts! Read then reply! His first words are:
Setting aside all of this

He then goes on to say that if we took away the core only limit your already flawed strategies would completely crumble. It has nothing to do with Chip, nothing to do with metagaming. You don't even know what metagaming means, this is abundantly clear at this point.


Hrm...well it would be. Except, and I had forgotten this, since we both began at 20th level...Chip has now reduced himself to 19th level by casting Gate (even assuming no XP built items). So, no Dream Larva. (At least, not if Chip doesn't want it coming to kill him, which it will with perfect flight).

Except if you'd read Chips character sheet and looked at anything other than spells not on there or items to sunder you might realise that at 20th level Chip has a caster level of 22. Even reduced to 19th level Chips caster level would still be 21. So yeah, he can control the Dream Larva.

And here I'll humour you again. Even if he couldn't control it, it's perfect flight isn't going to help when Chip has greater teleported away. By this point Bob has a good chance of being on the floor dead, since despite his wisdom score he wasn't wise enough to invest in defences against anything other than directly targeted spells. The Dream Larva gets bored and heads home.


There 'is' an item that 'was' allowing Chip to maintain control, but it's not there anymore so no worries, Bob goes Ethereal and the Dream Larva goes to eat Chip.

If you're referring to his Ioun stone, then no even at 19th level he can maintain control without it. Even if he couldn't Bob is likely dead at this point from a failed will save. Also metagaming. Bob has an unnatural interest in breaking or stealing this Wizards items instead of simply attacking him. The only explanation for this is that Bob knows the purpose of these items. Something which it's impossible for Bob to know in character.


And yet despite arguing this point, nobody has indicated what immediate action Chip has available that will help. There isn't one. If you insist on metagaming the rings under his gloves (when that wasn't specified) then sunder the bag. Now Chip's fortune (in rods and the like) is sitting at his feet. What does Chip do?

Oh dear Pun-Pun. Seriously? Metagaming the rings under his gloves!? Again! A blatant ignorance of what metagaming is. I've explained it once and I've explained it again! Metagaming is influencing the characters actions by using knowledge the player has but the character couldn't possibly know. NOW! Are you seriously going to argue that Chip (with his vast knowledge and intellect) doesn't know that rings are typically worn UNDER gloves?

If you're actually going to make this argument I think I'll have to put my head in my hands.

Also we've already stated multiple times that the immediate action that would help is to trigger his contingency. Or failing that he can simply shapechange into something incorporeal and walk out of Bobs pin. Doesn't matter if he can only take free actions on his turn. There's no chance Bob will be able to kill him in the first turn of grappling.


Why would Chip just go home if he hasn't accomplished whatever it is he set out to do? He wouldn't.

Why wouldn't he? Chip is not strapped for time. Chip has got where he's got by being extremely careful and planning ahead. And a lot of things Chip can accomplish from the comfort of his own home. He can deal with whatever was on todays agenda tomorrow with a full set of spells.


Where are you getting 21 or 22? He's 19th CL upon using gate, 20th with the ioun stone. If the ioun stone is gone (which it is because of the AoO from his movement) he can't control it.

His character sheet, you might try reading it some time. And once again, some metagaming on your part.

NOW IF YOU READ ANYTHING OF THIS POST, READ THIS:
This thread was enjoyable to begin with. But now all you're doing is just blatantly disregarding everything that's being said to you. You're basing your entire argument around a hypothetical duel between two characters. One whose sheet you haven't even read properly and the other whose sheet you've neglected to fill in properly. You accuse everyone of metagaming and shenanigans despite the fact you've metagamed copiously this entire thread, leading me to believe you're completely ignorant of what metagaming is.

You don't read peoples posts properly, you don't read spells properly, you don't seem to read anything properly. You've demonstrated massive gaps in your system knowledge and yet argue as if you're an expert. You continually ignore things that have been pointed out to you multiple times and use biased and flawed interpretations of the rules in an attempt to skew everything in your (well Bobs) favour.

It's just getting exasperating now. I think I'm with Big Fau, I've said all that needs saying. I'm done.

[Karnith]

Of course it won't. A level 1 wand of protection from evil won't protect you from a Dream Larva, either. How a monk with no ranks in knowledge arcana, planes, or spellcraft knows to use a wand of protection from evil prior to combat... anyone want to explain that to me?

Oh wait, maybe it's for the same reasons a wizard will dimensionally lock a threatening outsider at level 20 because everyone teleports at level 20, especially outsiders. And the wizard actually has +yes to skills like knowledge planes & spellcraft.
Sorry, I couldn't tell how many levels you were being sarcastic on.

Wow...I stop looking for a couple of days and BAM! 18 pages!

Does...this normally happen here? :smalltongue:
It kind of exploded after I posted Chip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14904451&postcount=158) and Pickford posted Bob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14905593&postcount=160) (and, later, Story posted Frosty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14917389&postcount=413)). But monkdays are always pretty contentious.

Most of the arguments (and I'll admit, I haven't read all of them) seem to stem around magic items. Why?Because without items, non-casters basically have no defenses against spells. Monks are better than most in this regard, but they still don't have enough.

Assume the each class has only mundane items (spell book, weapons, clothing, etc).
Do (expensive) material components and spell foci count as mundane items under this description? Because it will have an impact on how things end up. Well, in situation A, anyway.

Interestingly I was considering using Teleport, but Chip doesn't have it in his spell book.Actually, he does (it's not prepared, but it's there), though you made me check his character sheet to make sure.

[Rejusu]

Actually, he does (it's not prepared, but it's there), though you made me check his character sheet to make sure.

Oh derp, now I feel a little silly. I've still probably read the sheet more thoroughly than Pickford though. A little irrelevant anyway. Dimension Door makes a perfectly serviceable substitute for a contingency.

[TuggyNE]

I can't … stop … posting … send … help! :smalleek:


Tell that to Forrestfire who I was responding to. The parts bolded below are where FF argued, using the english definition of "Harm", that damaging Chip's gear was tantamount to wrongdoing. The defense is relying on morality, not the tactic. See below where I bold the parts that would have answered your objection.

Honestly, while I believe you to be incorrect here*, it's irrelevant; foresight's benefit of being immune to flatfootedness (which e.g. ExFighter gets around by using AMF to suppress the spell, and then a skill trick to force flatfootedness) is absolute; it does not rely on any specific targeting or any specific intention, nor is it blocked by any immunity.

(I know this has been mentioned at least a dozen times before, but it seems highly important, and no adequate response has yet been given.)

*If you're arguing, say, that an Evil caster of foresight gets no benefit from the spell at all, I'm not sure how to even respond. Danger/possible harm here is clearly posed from the perspective of the caster, and is broad enough to cover anything they might consider dangerous if they knew enough about it to be sure. That's why it's a ninth-level Divination spell: it's about knowing enough about things to be sure in advance when to act!


Why would Chip just go home if he hasn't accomplished whatever it is he set out to do? He wouldn't.

I was answering your suggestion that he would be exhausted and have to rest (presumably by walking on the ground, instead of "walking" in the air, which doesn't really make sense); obviously, Chip would schedule things appropriately and when he's done for the day would fly/teleport/whatever to the entrance of his MMM, where he is utterly safe from anything that can't plane shift/wish to a private demiplane. So no, waiting for an ambush opportunity is useless; you have to catch him while flying, or else there is simply no encounter. No encounter occurring means a loss for the Wizard-hunting Monk. (At least, if no encounter ever occurs it does.)


Not surprised or flatfooted in relation to himself, not his co-workers or pets.

That's not what surprised (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) or flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) mean.


Wow...I stop looking for a couple of days and BAM! 18 pages!

Does...this normally happen here? :smalltongue:

For tier-ish arguments? Yes. Mostly because of the RONG effect (http://xkcd.org/386/) (or whatever you want to call it), and the fact that, well, there's a lot of wrong stuff on both sides. (I happen to believe, for good reasons I've already generally gone through, that most/all of the errors in arguments for the Wizard are errors only in detail, and do not substantially affect the result, while the reverse is not usually true for arguments for the Monk. Or Fighter.)


In chemistry, when we want to compare a chemical or substance to another, we want to remove any variables that could effect the comparison (errors, noise, matrix effects, etc). Why not do that here? If we take the equation;

Monk + A bunch of Monk items Vs. Wizard + A bunch of Wizard items

It is not fair to say that A bunch of Monk items are equal to A bunch of Wizard items, so it would be wise to just remove them, giving us the equation;

Monk Vs. Wizard

Ironically, the reason this is not usually proposed much is because even the most diehard Wizard advocates feel it would be vastly unfair to the Monk beyond all reason.


Side note: not sure why this has (apparently) not been mentioned yet, but see invisibility works on ethereal enemies. Chip has it permanancied.
Another side note: how exactly is Bob actually, y'know, killing Chip? He has no [evil] spells or effects, as far as I know, to overcome regeneration 15.

You know, I wonder… how well would things work if we set up three separate threads for next Monkday: a Monk-oriented discussion on which things are likely to work best (in which no particular attempt is made to argue final results, metagaming, or anything like that, only immediate possibilities), a Wizard-oriented discussion similarly, and finally a mock combat, with someone chosen beforehand to pseudo-DM. (Ideally, someone who doesn't really care much one way or another and is recognized for rules expertise.)

[Carth]

I can't … stop … posting … send … help! :smalleek:

(which e.g. ExFighter gets around by using AMF to suppress the spell, and then a skill trick to force flatfootedness)


Eh, I find Anthro's claim that walking onto someone with an AMF wouldn't set off foresight just as dubious as Pickford's claim about targeting something a person is wearing wouldn't. Both seem cut from the same cloth, they both interpret the rules in similar patterns.

[The Trickster]

Do (expensive) material components and spell foci count as mundane items under this description? Because it will have an impact on how things end up. Well, in situation A, anyway.


Hmmm I didn't really think about that. Honestly, I was trying to remove the "magic item" variable...

If you want, we can assume the monk has rope, weapons, and other normal equipment that may add up in cost equal to spell components and foci needed for some spells, but not the really expensive spells (wish, for example). A wizard would not really need weapons, and wouldn't really need rope, because of their magic.

...or we can just have normal cost foci and material components, if you think that put both characters on even ground, I suppose.

Edit: You guys are the experts (compared to me, anyway. Pick whichever you think is fair :smallbiggrin:)

[TuggyNE]

Eh, I find Anthro's claim that walking onto someone with an AMF wouldn't set off foresight just as dubious as Pickford's claim about targeting something a person is wearing wouldn't. Both seem cut from the same cloth, they both interpret the rules in similar patterns.

True, but at least he goes to considerable lengths to provide detailed, plausible interpretations for most of it. (IIRC he never quite figured out how to prevent permanent arcane sight from spotting the AMF, but he may have switched out to something else.) In other words, he actually went through on his own hook and figured out nearly all the rules interactions correctly and in full. That's to be admired, even if he got a few things off. (And even if WBL-/minion-mancy on that grand a scale is rivaled only by a few of the cheesiest TO creations.)

[Carth]

Yeah, I guess they're in different sections, on the same boat.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmmm I didn't really think about that. Honestly, I was trying to remove the "magic item" variable...

If you want, we can assume the monk has rope, weapons, and other normal equipment that may add up in cost equal to spell components and foci needed for some spells, but not the really expensive spells (wish, for example). A wizard would not really need weapons, and wouldn't really need rope, because of their magic.

...or we can just have normal cost foci and material components, if you think that put both characters on even ground, I suppose.

I am late to this aspect of the discussion, but as is often and repeatedly voiced in various parts of these boards, the game doesn't function in an even vaguely similar fashion when you remove magic items. Wizards are minimally impacted. Monks are hideously gimped. Since the fight was tipping in favor of wizard before, I think a summary ruling of "WIZARD WINS" would not be far from appropriate.

Even if we just reduce it to who can heal now? Wizard: Yes. Monk: please don't count Wholeness of Body as healing....

There might be some useful discussion of can a party of mundanes hack it against CR-appropriate monsters without magic items. There is no useful discussion of whether "no magic v magic" is feasible for anyone, and this is what monk v wizard sans items boils down to. At the very lowest levels (before level 3), this might at least take a bit (but the low level tests were items-lite anyway), but at high levels, no contest.

[Karnith]

You guys are the experts (compared to me, anyway. Pick whichever you think is fair :smallbiggrin:)
Neither will be fair, frankly, though not letting the wizard have access to costly material components or spell foci would be more "fair."

For example, as Pickford and I discussed earlier in the thread, Chip flat-out murders anyone who doesn't have Freedom of Movement up by using Crushing Hand (can you beat a +40 or so grapple bonus without items?). At lower levels, Black Tentacles serves the same purpose. Chip would also get things like Time Stop, Polar Ray (though Chip's to-hit will be fairly low, everyone's AC will be similarly low), Reverse Gravity, Grasping Hand, and Disintegrate, among other, less offensive, spells if he gets non-costly material components.

Even with no spell component pouch, Chip could just prepare a ton of metamagic'd Enervations and go to town.

[Seer_of_Heart]

To the best of my ability I'm building a full op build without items and vow of poverty to demonstrate how the wizard can still be extremely powerful without magic items. I think this is satisfactory to the person who suggested that we test naked characters showing a wizard without items is >a monk with items if I am successful in making a good build.

edit: Also suggestions? I have some ideas but I lack a lot of system mastery compared to a lot of people on here.

[Karnith]

To the best of my ability I'm building a full op build without items and vow of poverty to demonstrate how the wizard can still be extremely powerful without magic items. I think this is satisfactory to the person who suggested that we test naked characters showing a wizard without items is >a monk with items if I am successful in making a good build.

edit: Also suggestions? I have some ideas but I lack a lot of system mastery compared to a lot of people on here.
I PM'ed you some advice, so as to not further clutter up the thread.

Also, I hope that you have a funny name and/or theme for your VoP wizard. Because it's apparently a thing for characters in this thread.

[mattie_p]

Also, I hope that you have a funny name and/or theme for your VoP wizard. Because it's apparently a thing for characters in this thread now.

I recommend "Penniless Pete."

[Karnith]

I recommend "Penniless Pete."
How about Homeless Hank?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Is there any evidence that the spell can be cast from anywhere else? There are three references within the spell description that the body remains on the PMP.

Perhaps not (I'll see if I can find something in the library) but as has previously been mentioned, Chip can simply pop back to the PMP and take his body elsewhere. Or he can have a fortified location on the PMP to store his physical body in.


Well, that is the point. The wizard does have class features more powerful than the entire mundane universe. So pick another one that isn't as abusive, (IMO). Gate is fine, especially since we're only calling a dreamworm, and not chain-gating solars.

Again, I fully admit I may tend to play at higher levels of optimization, but I don't see how just using the spell qualifies as abusive. In any case, it is telling that, out of a sense of fairness, the Wizard has to tie the proverbial arm behind his back.

And not to rain on the VoP Wizard parade, but does VoP allow for a spellbook/material components pouch? If not, you'll need to be an Eidetic Spellcaster Wizard with Eschew Materials.

[Karnith]

And not to rain on the VoP Wizard parade, but does VoP allow for a spellbook/material components pouch? If not, you'll need to be an Eidetic Spellcaster Wizard with Eschew Materials.
That's a no on the spellbook (but tattoos and eidetic spellcaster exist), but VoP explicitly allows spell component pouches.

[Story]

VoP actually does allow for spellbooks and component pouches. They even have rules for converting material components to XP components. It's pretty clear that they intended VoP Wizards to be possible.

[Karnith]

VoP actually does allow for spellbooks[...]
Can you point me to where it says that? I can't find it, but VoP rules being in multiple parts of the book makes it hard for me to say "no" with confidence.

[Story]

Can you point me to where it says that? I can't find it, but VoP rules being in multiple parts of the book makes it hard for me to say "no" with confidence.

Sorry, it looks like I misremembered. It's really weird too, since they allow component pouches, so it looks like they were trying to make VoP wizards possible. They must have just messed it up, like so many other rules.

[Karnith]

Sorry, it looks like I misremembered. It's really weird too, since they allow component pouches, so it looks like they were trying to make VoP wizards possible. They must have just messed it up, like so many other rules.
Actually, based on this mothership article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a), I think that it was intentional. For some reason.

EDIT: Of course, the article is also from 2006, and also says that monks don't need equipment to be effective, so there's that.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Actually, based on this mothership article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a), I think that it was intentional. For some reason.

EDIT: Of course, the article is also from 2006, and also says that monks don't need equipment to be effective, so there's that.

With that in mind, could an Eidetic Spellcaster learn spells (beyond those he gets every level) given the expensive incense that he must burn to memorize them?

[ArcturusV]

You know, probably. I mean you're only banned from OWNING the items. If someone, say a teammate, wants to buy it and let you use it? Perfectly legit. In fact it even says you depend on this sort of charity in the vow description and that it's cool.

[Carth]

Well, you still need to acquire a source of new spells, even without a spellbook. You can get them from leveling up (and increase this number via being an elven generalist and the collegiate wizard feat), but it's hard to determine what's crossing the line otherwise. Learning spells from a scroll wastes something you otherwise could have donated to the church, and you of course can't pay the 50 GP*spell level to learn them from the spellbooks of others.

[ArcturusV]

No, but you could ask and they could say "Sure".

[Carth]

Right, but it's iffy as to whether that constitutes a possession. Well, probably not iffy by RAW, I seem to recall it saying specifically material possessions. AFB so I can't check. Though that does make one wonder what other things aren't material that could be snuck in. Inherent bonuses, extract gift? Magical locations like the Otyugh hole?

[ZeroNumerous]

So, this monk thread inspired me to create a monk to help out Bob. Armstrong (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=537187) the Strongarm. He fists fights dudes and isn't afraid of anything. He's created with core, and one bit of material from Complete Arcane. That feat is solely for book keeping purposes, and could be removed--but certain things would need to be trimmed down if that's the case. I still have 91,500 gold to spend on whatever I feel like. I was thinking of blowing it all on hookers and blow, since I didn't need anything else.

But there are some wondrous items(or partially charged wands) that I could buy instead.

Standard daily spell-list:

1st - 8
Grease
Grease
Grease
Shield
Mage Armor
Enlarge Person
Feather Fall
Protection from Evil

2nd - 8
Mirror Image
Blur
Glitterdust
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Alter Self
Extended Shield - Cast
Extended Mage Armor - Cast
Knock
Rope Trick

3rd - 8
Extended Blur
Extended Blur
Extended Mirror Image
Haste
Slow
Slow
Protection from Energy
Protection from Energy

4th - 7
Extended Protection from Energy
Extended Protection from Energy
Solid Fog
Solid Fog
Dimension Door
Extended Displacement
Extended Displacement

5th - 7
Prying Eyes
Extended Greater Invisibility
Baleful Polymorph
Extended Solid Fog
Cloudkill
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Evocation

6th - 7
Extended Overland Flight -Cast
Acid Fog
Acid Fog
Greater Dispel Magic
Disintegrate
True Seeing
True Seeing

7th - 7
Greater Teleport
Greater Teleport
Plane Shift
Greater Arcane Sight
Quickened Haste
Ethereal Jaunt
Quickened Displacement

8th - 6
Mind Blank - Cast
Moment of Prescience - Cast
Moment of Prescience
Quickened Dimension Door
Greater Prying Eyes
Polymorph Any Object

9th - 6
Shapechange
Shapechange
Time Stop
Foresight - Cast
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Gate

Standard Buff List
Shapechange - Titan - Shared with Familiar - Familiar and Armstrong are both using Change Shape(Su) to appear as very buff humans.
Extended Overland Flight - Shared with Familiar
Foresight - Shared with Familiar
Extended Shield - Shared with Familiar
Extended Mage Armor - Shared with Familiar

Stats as Titan: 49 STR(+19), 18 Dexterity(+4), 45 CON(+17).
HP: 391
Grapple: +33(+41 in Titan form)
Unarmed Attack: +30/25 - 1d4+19
Gargantuan Hammer(two-handed): +30/25 - 4d6+27
Saves: +29 Fort, +18 Reflex, +17 Will
AC: 40(10-2 size+4 DEX, +19 Natural, +5 Armor(+4 vs incorporeal), +4 Shield), touch 16(+4 shield, +4 DEX, -2 size), flat-footed 36(10+19 Natural, +5 Armor(+4 vs incorporeal), +4 Shield, -2 size)
Defenses: 50% Miss Chance(Displacement), 20% Miss Chance(Blur), Mirror Image(7 to 8 images, so 12% to 11% chance to hit the real one).

Prior Buff List
Extended Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion - Always up, keeps spellbook there.
Polymorph Any Object - Treant - Cast on self, dispelled from self, shared with familiar.
Polymorph Any Object - Treant - Cast on self, dispelled from self, shared with familiar.
Familiar is now permanently a Treant.

[Story]

Actually, based on this mothership article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a), I think that it was intentional. For some reason.

EDIT: Of course, the article is also from 2006, and also says that monks don't need equipment to be effective, so there's that.

Was that even written by someone who worked on BoED? He's probably just looking at it and guessing just as much as we are.


With that in mind, could an Eidetic Spellcaster learn spells (beyond those he gets every level) given the expensive incense that he must burn to memorize them?

Well it's not RAW, but I think it's fair to let you pay XP to learn spells, similar to the rules on expensive material components.


Right, but it's iffy as to whether that constitutes a possession. Well, probably not iffy by RAW, I seem to recall it saying specifically material possessions. AFB so I can't check. Though that does make one wonder what other things aren't material that could be snuck in. Inherent bonuses, extract gift? Magical locations like the Otyugh hole?

Extraordinary locations definitely work. Their WBL equivalent value is purely a metagame construct, and it's not like you can donate them anyway.

Inherent bonuses are ok, but hard to acquire. Tome are out since they are valuable. However, donations to churches are supposed to be rewarded with minor services including spellcasting, so if you spend you're whole adventuring career donating WBL, you might eventually be able to get some Wishes cast on you. And of course, Wizards and Sorcerers can wish on themselves.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I mean he said VoP works well with Monks.

So probably did? The people writing the book seemed to think so as their examples of a guy with VoP were all Monks. Even though it's a terrible idea for any mundane character to forgo items.

[Spuddles]

How about Homeless Hank?

"I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW I LIVE IN A MANSION! YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT."

[Pickford]

snip*shrug* Monks tend to be fairly easy to identify as the guys who carry few-to-no weapons or armor, move really fast, are incapable of real magic but have some pseudo-magical abilities, etc.

Wizards have pretty high Knowledges so I don't doubt his ability to roll Knowledge: Local to identify the class. At the very least he can determine that he's not a spellcaster (no buffs in effect) or a warrior (no visible weapons or armor).

He can. Caster Level 20+ (which he still has if you destroy just the right Ioun Stone and he loses a level) allows control of a HD 40 creature.
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)
"Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time."

Eldariel: An untrained (in this case Chip has 0 ranks local) knowledge check is simply an intelligence check. Without actual training you only know common knowledge, DC 10 or lower. So if I accept your premise that knowing about the abilities of personalities or may or may not be local to the area is a Knowledge (local) check, Chip by the rules cannot know anything tougher than DC 10...which is only "really easy questions". Identifying a monster or its special abilities is DC 10 + the HD, or a DC 30 check which Chip is incapable of passing untrained no matter his modifier.

Actually Flickerdart provided yet another reason gate is impossible (not that that was his intention)

Karnith: Sorry if I missed the two character part. Interesting on the Wight thing. I will nitpick that the phrase "level drain" appears nowhere in the DMG or on the Wight...meaning Greater Restoration and Restoration 'do' restore level drain, except only "level loss" ever occurs. :smallbiggrin: This is technically correct. (The best kind of correct!) Lacking a definition for level drain, I'd be forced (forced!) to conclude it simply doesn't exist. :smallwink:

Hrm...I suppose the only way to locate the Wizard would be paying 'another Wizard' to Detect Location them, then teleporting and coup de grace in their sleep. Sort of cheesy to have to purchase services to get the job done against that I suppose.

Eldariel: PFE was to protect vs Worst Nightmare alone. If Chip cast dispel magic it would rebound (spell turning, yay) and remove all 'his' protections (including mind blank) as a caster's dispel magic automatically succeeds against their own spells.

Eldest: (No relation to Eldariel?) Being able to speak doesn't cut it. Spellcasting requires a strong loud voice, not a ghostly sound. Also Wisps have no limbs, so nothing somatic (nor can anything requiring a focus or material be cast as those are transmuted into the body from shapechange, plus no hands to hold it).

Flickerdart: Thank you for unintentionally giving a reason Gate is impossible. You can't spend XP if you would drop a level. (So having exactly the xp to be 20th level...Chip can't cast gate, short of a purchased scroll, so it's only ~44k (since this is a one-off right?). Only 44k to maybe make sure you kill a Monk.) Glad that's over. :smallamused:

Kalaska: Prestidigitation can't emulate other spells and that definitely includes a floating stone by Chip's head.

RandomGuy: Good call on the feat order, thanks for the fix. You do bring up a good point, while no one has put together a valid attack scheme for Bob, Bob so far can only really harm Chip via destroying/stealing his items (and while that might, via attrition, give Bob the win, we should make certain Bob can overcome Chip's Regeneration.

Revised Bob:
Bob the Builder - 20th level monk
HD 19d8+8+(Conmodx20) = (47-180hp; ave: 113.5)

32pointbuy
original: 17 str (+3); 13 dex (+1); 12 con (+1); 16 wis (+3); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1);
After ability gains:
18 str (+4); 13 dex (+1); 12 con (+1); 20 wis (+5); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After manuals:
22 str (+6); 13 dex (+1); 12 con (+1); 24 wis (+7); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After items:
28 str (+9); 19 dex (+4); 12 con (+1); 24 wis (+7); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)

Saves:
Ref: 22 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 4 dexmod)
Fort: 19 (12 base + 1 competence +5 resistance + 1 conmod)
Will: 25 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 7 wismod)

AC: 25 (10 base + 7 wismod + 4 dexmod + 4 acbonus)
Touch AC: 25 (same)

items: ~739k

Head: Circlet of Blasting, Major (23,760)
Eyes:
Neck: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150k)
Torso (shirt/vest):
Torso (robe):
Belt: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k)
Cloak: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)
Bracers:
Gloves: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k)
Ring1: Ring of Spell Turning (98,280)
Ring2:
Boots: Boots of Teleportation (49k)

Other: Pale Green Ioun Stone (30k); Manual of Quick Action +4 (110k); Tome of Understanding +4 (110k); Rod of Absorption (50k); 2x Rod of Cancellation (22k)

Possible Alternate Gear Set: ~738k

Head: Circlet of Blaster, Major (23,760)
Eyes:
Neck: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150k)
Torso (shirt/vest):
Torso (robe): Robe of Stars (58k)
Belt: Belt of Giant Str +6 (36k)
Cloak: Cape of the Mountebank (10,080)
Bracers:
Gloves: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k)
Ring1: Ring of Spell Turning (98,280)
Ring2:
Boots: Boots, Winged (16k)

Other: Pale Green Ioun Stone (30k); Manual of Quick Action +4 (110k); Tome of Understanding +4 (110k); Rod of Absorption (50k); Rod of Cancellation (11k)

Unarmed: 2d10 + 9(strmod) + 5 (amulet of mighty fists)
BAB: +15/+10/+5; Flurry BAB: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
AB: +30/+25/+20; Flurry AB: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20 (+9 strmod; +1 competence; +5 enhancement)

Feats:
Human: Power Attack
1st: Improved Sunder
Monk1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk1: Stunning Fist
Monk2nd: Fiery Fist
3rd: Weakening Touch
6th: Sun School
Monk6th: Ki Blast
9th: Rapid Stunning
12th: Rapid Stunning
15th: Freezing the Lifeblood
18th: Eagle Claw Attack

Skills: 92 points
Tumble: 20 ranks
Spot: 20 ranks
Move Silently: 10 ranks
Hide: 6 ranks
Escape Artist: 10 ranks
Climb: 5 ranks
Jump: 5 ranks
Balance: 10 ranks

Skill Tricks: (2 points per)
Clarity of Vision
Easy Escape
Spot the Weak Point


Amusingly I suppose Bob (and any 'mundane') could just invest in a Mirror of Opposition and have Chip kill himself. (Bob could activate the mirror and then run at Chip holding it...there's no way for Chip to avoid looking 'at' the Mirror short of shutting his eyes, effectively disabling himself from using spells on anything).

Spuddles: The same way characters without spells know to drink healing potions or buff at all.

Mattie_p: Chip can try...but spell turning was active so it would just rebound on Chip.

PurpleNurple: I was making the argument that non-spellcasters scale better with magic items than spellcasters do. Of course, without WBL Wizard's are restricted to picking 2 spells per level (total of 38 spells known + 1st level + cantrips), and he could know at most 4 of each spell level (assuming he didn't pick up lower level spells than he could). So that would be interesting to see. I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up Schroedinger's Wizard though, that's pretty powerful.

Tuggyne: Rest assured I wasn't arguing it has no effect on evil people. What I'm arguing is that damaging items does not constitute physical harm to a person. That is fairly straightforward. If your watch breaks you may feel some emotional loss, but it doesn't damage you personally. And it 'is' a powerful spell, but it relies on direct, not indirect, threats. It also doesn't target anyone else, so the AMF thing won't work unless the mage is in the field, the Fighter's location is not important in that respect.

Right, and since we're suggesting an encounter occur at all, it requires Chip to land. I'm not saying it's fair, just that it 'has' to occur for the purposes of any experiment.

Incidentally, Sunder can be used as a non-combat action (destroying things, which I'm exploiting). Warped? Maybe. Unfair? Probably. Rules as intended? Almost certainly not. Rules as written? Definitely.

Yeah seeing Bob works...but Chip needs force effects to 'do' anything to harm Bob. Reworked Bob's character sheet in response to the regeneration as this does seem like a problem.

I'd vote for Curmudgeon.

Phelix: Chip hasn't damaged Bob nor has anyone suggested a spell he can cast (gate disqualified by inability to provide xp component). So so far only Bob has done damage to Chip's item. (Even if Chip 'could' use an immediate action from Foresight he has nothing to stop the sundering).

Karnith: Only thing I think Bob can do vs the Hand is 1-round kill it (it's AC is low enough that a full flurry will hit which should be more than enough).

Destitute Dan

Oh Karnith, was it you who mentioned making a Simulacrum of something that can cast Wish for a wish factory? If so, you need the parts of the person you're making a simulacra of. (i.e. You need a Huge Genie's hair) And while there is no price I would think that's because you can't just buy that stuff.

[Spuddles]

Eldariel: An untrained (in this case Chip has 0 ranks local) knowledge check is simply an intelligence check. Without actual training you only know common knowledge, DC 10 or lower. So if I accept your premise that knowing about the abilities of personalities or may or may not be local to the area is a Knowledge (local) check, Chip by the rules cannot know anything tougher than DC 10...which is only "really easy questions". Identifying a monster or its special abilities is DC 10 + the HD, or a DC 30 check which Chip is incapable of passing untrained no matter his modifier.

Bob isn't a local.

Check his type again.

[Greenish]

Level 20 monk is an outsider, so wouldn't you use Know (Planes) to identify it?

[Story]

It's not like spending 44k to net 300k+ in loot is even a bad deal. Though if Chip is feeling stingy, he might just kill Bob with regular slots or a Shapechanged form to save the money.

[Gwendol]

It is clearly against the intention of the spell to claim that destroying protective or combat enhancing items do not present a danger to the wearer. Harm? No, but danger most definitively. Especially since the objective of the sundering is to cripple the caster well enough to kill him/her. Accept this, and focus your efforts on a counter to keep the discussion meaningful, because right now it's a bit detached (from the reality of the proposed duel).

[ZeroNumerous]

Oh Karnith, was it you who mentioned making a Simulacrum of something that can cast Wish for a wish factory? If so, you need the parts of the person you're making a simulacra of. (i.e. You need a Huge Genie's hair) And while there is no price I would think that's because you can't just buy that stuff.

Spell component pouches contain all of that stuff, because it doesn't have a cost and spell component pouches contain any material component without a cost associated to it.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel: PFE was to protect vs Worst Nightmare alone. If Chip cast dispel magic it would rebound (spell turning, yay) and remove all 'his' protections (including mind blank) as a caster's dispel magic automatically succeeds against their own spells.

He'd probably just use Disjunction; it removes all buffs without a save (saves are only for items). Anyways, Gate's cast, Dream Larva summoned, Monk's dead. That was one spell. There are other ways too but that's the most obvious and the one even you can't argue. So you know that your Monk has no chance now and this discussion is over.

Have a nice day.

[mattie_p]

Mattie_p: Chip can try...but spell turning was active so it would just rebound on Chip.

I'm sorry, I was not really playing anyway, losing track of the builds in trying to pick some nits. However, by your logic, you should have no problem with Chip casting a disintegrate on your ring of spell turning, right (which... you activated in the same turn? If it is active, I lost track of when you did so. Standard action, by the way)? After all, Chip is targeting the ring, not the wearer, so spell turning has no effect.

[Rejusu]

There are other ways too but that's the most obvious and the one even you can't argue. So you know that your Monk has no chance now and this discussion is over.

You haven't really been paying attention. He'll try and argue anything, or just ignore it if he can't. He's completely ignored my last post because I called him out on his excessive metagaming. He's accused everyone else of metagaming (even when they aren't) and yet he's metagamed the most in this thread.

On this he's arguing that Chip can't cast Gate because you can't spend XP if it'd cause you to delevel. Which while true is something that had to be pointed out to him. And since these hypothetical characters have reached level 20 with the exact amount of XP needed Chip can't cast Gate. Of course this is yet another contrived and unlikely circumstance used by Pickford in order to craft the situation to his favour.

What's ridiculous is we've allowed him all these things (terrain that favours the Monk, the Wizard on the ground, no use of XP) and Bob still doesn't stand a chance.

As a quick test I decided to see what might happen if Chip cast disjunction. With his now lower Will save on average disjunction will lose 2.3 items. Likely more if he loses his cloak of resistance in the process. His chance of passing all nine saves is roughly 7.5%. The worst result was 6 items lost and losing three was a common result. This was averaged over 104 sets of rolls.

Now we actually have skills for Bob listed we can see he only has 6 ranks in hide. This makes his net hide modifier -10 (plus 4 Dex, minus 20 for charging) against Chip's -12 (+6 spot, -18 distance) which means Bob is spotted 40% of the time. So much for Pickfords claim that Chip's +6 spot made winning the check "outside the realms of possibility".

Additionally Bob no longer has a ring of FoM. Not only does this now make him vulnerable to a number of Chip's spells it also puts to rest his fallacious argument that Bob knows what Chips ring is due to owning one himself. Not that it needed this, it was blatant metagaming from the start.

Why am I still here again?

[Greenish]

Why am I still here again?SIWOTI syndrome.

[Karnith]

Was that even written by someone who worked on BoED? He's probably just looking at it and guessing just as much as we are.
Yeah, it wasn't, hence my edit about it being from 2006. But still, I'm pretty sure that even the Wizards editors would have realized that you can't make a VoP wizard through normal means.

"I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW I LIVE IN A MANSION! YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT."
Unfortunately for Hank, Magnificent Mansion has a costly material component, so when he took his vow of poverty he got evicted.

Karnith: Only thing I think Bob can do vs the Hand is 1-round kill it (it's AC is low enough that a full flurry will hit which should be more than enough).Actually, the hand has HP equal to Chip's full total, so it may have enough HP to survive. Also, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that it gets to attempt to start a grapple (without provoking an attack of opportunity, since it's keyed off of Interposing Hand) the turn that you cast it.

Oh Karnith, was it you who mentioned making a Simulacrum of something that can cast Wish for a wish factory? If so, you need the parts of the person you're making a simulacra of. (i.e. You need a Huge Genie's hair) And while there is no price I would think that's because you can't just buy that stuff.
Yep, that was me. I'm fairly certain that I already gave the method for doing so, but in case I didn't, you planar bind the creature that you want to make a simulacrum of, and either kill it, or take a piece of it in exchange for payment. Or you could dominate it and then use Programmed Amnesia to make it forget that you ever met. It all depends on what your spells are.

I'm sorry, I was not really playing anyway, losing track of the builds in trying to pick some nits. However, by your logic, you should have no problem with Chip casting a disintegrate on your ring of spell turning, right (which... you activated in the same turn? If it is active, I lost track of when you did so. Standard action, by the way)? After all, Chip is targeting the ring, not the wearer, so spell turning has no effect.
Well, a ring of spell turning does last for 130 minutes or until discharged once activated, so if Bob is planning on ambushing Chip, he could just activate it ahead of time. Also, a rod of absorption protects against any single-target spells or rays directed against the caster or his items, so unless you're using a Chained disintegrate, Bob is protected against that.

Why am I still here again?
Because you love us all so much?

[Story]

Unfortunately for Hank, Magnificent Mansion has a costly material component, so when he took his vow of poverty he got evicted.

He can still spend XP for it.

[Deadline]

Flickerdart: Thank you for unintentionally giving a reason Gate is impossible. You can't spend XP if you would drop a level. (So having exactly the xp to be 20th level...Chip can't cast gate, short of a purchased scroll, so it's only ~44k (since this is a one-off right?). Only 44k to maybe make sure you kill a Monk.) Glad that's over. :smallamused:

Wait a minute. In all of your furious backpedaling, I think you forgot something. You claimed that because Chip has used some of his xp for crafting, he isn't level 20. Unless Chip has used all of the XP from level 19-20 for crafting, he still has a reserve to cast Gate.


So that would be interesting to see. I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up Schroedinger's Wizard though, that's pretty powerful.

I'm not sure you can claim anyone is using Schroedinger's Wizard here (well, short of you), as for the last 10 or so pages pretty much everyone has been using Chip. Is there a reason you are still bringing this up?

[Pickford]

Level 20 monk is an outsider, so wouldn't you use Know (Planes) to identify it?

Monk is only an outsider for purposes of spells/effects, that doesn't include a knowledge check. Local is used to know personalities, inhabitants, traditions and humanoids). PHB: 42 and 78 explain this.

Story/Karnish: Wizard could use a tattoo'd spellbook for VoP. Of course it's fairly limited, but that'd be ok since you can't purchase any spells.

Gwendol: If it's so clear, provide a quote that makes it clear that items are protected. None of the examples show a Wizard being forewarned of anything but attacks on them, not their gear. I would hasten to point out that, in the case of Chip, it does not matter which interpretation is used.

Chip has no celerity and cannot do anything to stop the sunder. Complaining about Foresight is a red herring.

Zeronumerous: Oh do they? I guess that means a spell component pouch contains every Character's soul automatically, because...those don't have a price. Simulacrum requires a specific creature's parts. There is no price because you can't buy those things, not because they're free. If you're up against Hector the Huge Genie and want to simulacrum him, you can't just open your spell pouch and find Hector's hair.

Eldariel: Ok, have him cast that then. p.s. Wizards don't get 2 turns in a row. Monk can just use the wand (which more likely than not survives the Disjunction) to recast on his turn. So that won't work.

Mattie_p: I do not, however as the others pointed out, the ring could be beneath the gloves, so it is, and it's thus untargetable. Actually I'm just as happy in the interpretation that Foresight works for Chip's gear, I just find it amusing the RAW don't specify that protection. :smallamused:

Karnith: Yeah I saw, but Explosive Runes activate only when read. No way to guarantee the called creature reads them. And with Quickened Scorching Ray as a spell like ability at will the Huge Efreeti (needed for the simulacra) can deal 8d6 damage before you can even dimensional anchor them to prevent their plane shifting out. I suppose you could try to dominate monster, since Efreeti are outsiders Dominate Person won't work. Also, self destructive orders are never carried out, so no cutting off nails or hair. It would be alot easier to just buff your charisma out the roof and use Planar Binding to request service for a year.

Yeah he was saying if my argument that gear is not explicitly part of a character in the rules, and therefore spells that protect a creature don't protect their gear then...all that. I'm fine with either outcome, but as I said, there doesn't appear to be any text supporting the concept of items being part of a character (except for their saving throws).

Story: Not if he's at the minimum xp for the level.

Edit:
Rejusu: Generating a 20th level character you get that much xp, no more, no less. That's not contrived and even if I were right for the wrong reasons, I'm still right. edit2: Bob doesn't need to hide while charging, it's unclear why you keep bringing that up.

edit3: Deadline: I said if a Wizard used their xp for crafting. Chip did not engage in xp crafting shenanigans, so there was no need for both characters to engage in wbl-mancy. (Thus Chip is a brand new 20th level wizard with no spare xp.)

You are mistaken. Rejusu and Spuddles have been throwing out spells that aren't on the list or memorized.

[Eldest]

Pickford, I had Chip take his turn. Unless you are no longer interested, because in that case I can simply tell you what happens. Or you could have the new Bob face the same Chip. I would have that count as a defeat for the old Bob, though.

You will also need to decide which set of gear you are using.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel: Ok, have him cast that then. p.s. Wizards don't get 2 turns in a row. Monk can just use the wand (which more likely than not survives the Disjunction) to recast on his turn. So that won't work.

Monk doesn't have UMD to use the Wand and the Wizard can frankly use Shapechange to take two standard actions in one round. Choker form for example. Also, it really doesn't matter; Monk somehow Sunders something, Wizard Gates Dream Larva, Monk dies.

If Wizard can't cast it due to being too high level or whatever, well, I don't frankly care; maybe the Wizard just didn't take his level up and is level 19 then or used XP for crafting or whatever. He could kill the Monk through Shapechange too but I don't have the patience to demonstrate that especially since I know you'll try to argue every point pointlessly and waste everybody's time.

You can honestly do it yourself if you want to; remember, Monk can't fly so use forms with ranged attacks or burrow or incorporeality. If Monk uses Empty Body, waste the rounds away since he can't actually affect you from it. I'm pretty sure with some study you can do it yourself.

[Pickford]

Pickford, I had Chip take his turn. Unless you are no longer interested, because in that case I can simply tell you what happens. Or you could have the new Bob face the same Chip. I would have that count as a defeat for the old Bob, though.

You will also need to decide which set of gear you are using.

You'll have to remind me what action you wanted Chip to take.

Eldariel: Hrm, ok, edited to shift 2 points into a rank of UMD for next time, thanks for pointing out the need. Chip can't cast gate to call anything, it requires an XP component that Chip can't pay, if you want to re-write Chip for next time that would be fine. Also owing to; because of; or as a result of would be grammatically correct, not due to.

:smallsigh: The argument isn't pointless if it indicates a deficiency in the tactic attempted. You attempted to cast spells that can't be cast as a shape that can't cast any spells at all. Am I supposed to just ignore that? :smallannoyed: If you come up with actions that don't violate the rules of the game it would waste alot less of my time (and yours) too. :smallmad:

[Eldariel]

You'll still fail UMD to use Wand; it's a DC 20 check. But seriously, why don't you just admit that the Monk has no chance? The power imbalance has been established in the spell comparison; everything you argue is mere technicalities, while the absolute power difference is incomparable. What you're arguing is akin to arguing that a level 1 Monk can beat a level 20 Monk. Just admit it, let's move on and try some actually interesting mental exercises instead of rubbing technicalities until knees turn raw.

[Gwendol]

The spell warns the caster of danger or harm. While you can rightly argue the sundered gear isn't the target of the spell it doesn't matter; you are sundering the ring/whatever to cripple the wizard enough to kill him, thus the attack represents danger in the form of increased risk of bodily harm. That this harm doesn't happen on the first attack is of no importance since the spell is more generally protecting the wizard than that.

[shaikujin]

I was looking at ways to get around UMD for mundane classes, it seems like the Arcane Schooling feat from PGtF might help.

You are treated as a 1st level char of 1 single arcane spell casting class (bard, sorc, wiz). Must be taken at level 1 though.

Costs a precious 1st level feat, but for characters that do not have UMD as a class skill it's an option.



Flight is huge. But it can be achieved by items, or even better, LA 0 templates like Dragonborn (though the breath weapon is more powerful choice) and Unseelie Fey (the random chance sucks though. assuming you don't get wings, kill off the character and create a new one).



Also, I have a question for the experts here who are more knowledgeable, would the Carmendine Monk feat work for the Blink portion of the Invisible Fist ACF? Or would only Kung Fu genius work?

Any FAQ, Sage or Dragon clarification etc ?

[Thunndarr]

The spell warns the caster of danger or harm. While you can rightly argue the sundered gear isn't the target of the spell it doesn't matter; you are sundering the ring/whatever to cripple the wizard enough to kill him, thus the attack represents danger in the form of increased risk of bodily harm. That this harm doesn't happen on the first attack is of no importance since the spell is more generally protecting the wizard than that.

That's been pointed out to him. Pickford doesn't believe that destroying your magical protective items, the destruction of which by definition puts you in more danger, would trigger a spell that warns you of impending danger. I mean, I know it's a difficult concept....The less safe I am=the more danger I am in....Not good enough for Pickford though.

[Deadline]

You are mistaken. Rejusu and Spuddles have been throwing out spells that aren't on the list or memorized.

I am not mistaken.

Because I am a fool who likes to believe the best about people, I made the assumption that you are not trolling, and in fact found an error in my statement. And since I do so hate hypocrisy, I figured I'd make sure I didn't make an error. I So I went back over every post made in this thread by Spuddles and Rejusu since Chip was listed (post #158).

Rejusu has not once mentioned Chip using any spell that is not on his list of spells known. Not only that, but he hasn't mentioned using any spell in your ridiculously contrived duel that isn't already on Chip's memorized list. Here are the spells Rejusu has mentioned Chip using (* indicates the spell is known, but not memorized for the duel. Note how Rejusu doesn't suggest the use of these spells in the duel.):

Gate
Dimension Door (as part of a previously cast Contingency, which lasts until triggered)
*Teleport (Mentioned as part of a retribution campaign after Chip escapes the initial Duel, assuming Bob survives)
Detect Magic
Arcane Sight
Prying Eyes
Mind Blank
*Scrying (Mentioned as part of a retribution campaign after Chip escapes the initial Duel, assuming Bob survives)
*Discern Location (Mentioned as part of a retribution campaign after Chip escapes the initial Duel, assuming Bob survives)
*Magnificent Mansion (As noted on Chip's sheet, this spell is active for 88 hours at a time, so does not need to be prepared on the day of the duel)
Rope Trick (In case you have any issue with MMM, you can't argue with this one)
Shapechange (Which is up pretty much all day)
Moment of Prescience
*Contingency (Which lasts until triggered)
*Invisibility (Mentioned as part of a retribution campaign after Chip escapes the initial Duel, assuming Bob survives)
Overland Flight
Forcecage (This wasn't mentioned by Rejusu in regards to Chip, I think, but it is worth pointing out that Chip has the spell and has it memorized)

Spuddles has also not mentioned Chip using any spell not he doesn't know or have memorized. Here are the spells Spuddles mentioned Chip using:

Dimensional Lock
Overland Flight
Greater Dispel Magic
Time Stop

So ... troll me once, etc.

[Pickford]

The spell warns the caster of danger or harm. While you can rightly argue the sundered gear isn't the target of the spell it doesn't matter; you are sundering the ring/whatever to cripple the wizard enough to kill him, thus the attack represents danger in the form of increased risk of bodily harm. That this harm doesn't happen on the first attack is of no importance since the spell is more generally protecting the wizard than that.

Gwendol the spell does NOT grant the power to know when your items are coming to harm, it grants the power to know when the SUBJECT is coming to harm. Two distinct objects. It will only provide warning once Chip himself is in danger which does not occur till some time 'after' the ring's destruction. Chip would not be warned if A volcano would cause the migration of an Orc army resulting in the over-running of his tower and his eventual, certain, doom from the powerful Orc casters anymore than he would be warned that if he forgot to put his ring on he might be harmed later in the day or if he forgot to cast a spell he'd fail a saving throw later so he knows to cast the spell in the morning.

Eldariel: Scrolls say they take a 20 + spell level check, wands just say a check has to be made (no DC mentioned that I saw from flipping through there).

Deadline: They mentioned a ton of spells that aren't memorized, that's what Schroedinger's Wizard is, substituting spells that aren't actually memorized to counter any given action. That means you are mistaken, thank you for finding the information for me.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Kalaska: Prestidigitation can't emulate other spells and that definitely includes a floating stone by Chip's head.

Actually, you'll find that Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) can, in fact, "create small objects" and "slowly lift 1 pound of material." So lifting a small object (created via prestidigitation) and orbiting it around Chip's head is well within the capabilities of the spell.


Zeronumerous: Oh do they? I guess that means a spell component pouch contains every Character's soul automatically, because...those don't have a price. Simulacrum requires a specific creature's parts. There is no price because you can't buy those things, not because they're free. If you're up against Hector the Huge Genie and want to simulacrum him, you can't just open your spell pouch and find Hector's hair.

I didn't know that a particular Character's soul was a material component in a spell. Unfortunately for you, the rules text for the spell component pouch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch) clearly states "A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch." As the hair or nail trimmings or whatever do not have a specific cost, they are present in the pouch. Therefore asserting they are present is technically correct, which I believe is your favorite kind of correctness. And it doesn't even rely on an absurd reading of the text in question, to boot.

[Gwendol]

The harm/danger of harm starts with the sundering of the ring. Bob's goal is to harm chip, eventually, which is what the spell is about. We're talking about an encounter supposedly ending with only one survivor.

[Greenish]

Zeronumerous: Oh do they? I guess that means a spell component pouch contains every Character's soul automatically, because...those don't have a price.BoVD gives the price of souls.

[Thunndarr]

Gwendol the spell does NOT grant the power to know when your items are coming to harm, it grants the power to know when the SUBJECT is coming to harm. Two distinct objects. It will only provide warning once Chip himself is in danger which does not occur till some time 'after' the ring's destruction. Chip would not be warned if A volcano would cause the migration of an Orc army resulting in the over-running of his tower and his eventual, certain, doom from the powerful Orc casters anymore than he would be warned that if he forgot to put his ring on he might be harmed later in the day or if he forgot to cast a spell he'd fail a saving throw later so he knows to cast the spell in the morning.



The spell specifically says it warns of impending DANGER or harm. Impending means that he is not in danger YET. This means, it warns him BEFORE he is in danger.

Breaking the ring (not the subject of foresight)=removing protection (of the subject of foresight)=putting him (the subject) in danger. By definition of the spell, he'd have a warning before the ring is sundered. Now stop arguing.

[Gwendol]

Actually, the sundering of objects is largely irrelevant. It's the beginning of the attack by Bob that matters. His goal isn't to sunder objects held, by the wizard; it's to harm the wizard. The spell even gives the wizard some pointers on how best to avoid harm.

[Rejusu]

Gwendol: If it's so clear, provide a quote that makes it clear that items are protected. None of the examples show a Wizard being forewarned of anything but attacks on them, not their gear. I would hasten to point out that, in the case of Chip, it does not matter which interpretation is used.

"You are never surprised or flat-footed."

There's your quote. I'm surprised you're still arguing about this considering I've completely dismantled your argument on the subject. Chips gear is not directly protected by Foresight, it's indirectly protected by virtue of being worn or carried by the Wizard. When Bob initiates the encounter (by becoming aware of Chip) initiative begins. Chip can act in the surprise round because he is never surprised. His ring can't, because well... it's a ring. But it's irrelevant because it's being worn by Chip who can act in the surprise round.


Chip has no celerity and cannot do anything to stop the sunder. Complaining about Foresight is a red herring.

Incorrect. Provided Chip wins initiative he can do something to stop the sunder. Namely fly 10ft off the ground, outside of Bobs mundane reach. Even if he loses initiative and fails to stop the sunder he will have a chance to act before Bob can again. Which means he can prevent the subsequent grapple attempt.

Bob does not get a surprise round against Chip. End of story.


Eldariel: Ok, have him cast that then. p.s. Wizards don't get 2 turns in a row. Monk can just use the wand (which more likely than not survives the Disjunction) to recast on his turn. So that won't work.

Emphasis mine. They would if they were to cast time stop. Also worth noting that Bob doesn't get 2 turns in a row either. Y'know due to the lack of a surprise round in which Chip can't act. Monk likely can't use the wand the first time, let alone the second. You can't take 10, you have a negative Cha and Int (which means limited skill ranks) and UMD is cross class for you. Unless Bob gets a couple of natural 20's he isn't going to be using the wand.

Also considering as I showed earlier Bob is likely to lose at least two items or effects from a disjunction you can't be sure the wand will live.


Mattie_p: I do not, however as the others pointed out, the ring could be beneath the gloves, so it is, and it's thus untargetable. Actually I'm just as happy in the interpretation that Foresight works for Chip's gear, I just find it amusing the RAW don't specify that protection. :smallamused:

Considering that the only people who wear rings over gloves are fancily dressed ladies (and Chip is neither fancy nor a lady) it's not the ring "could be" beneath the gloves. The ring is beneath the gloves. But at least you've acknowledged this now.

However you're wrong in that it's untargetable. Bizarrely enough RAW doesn't stop you sundering the ring through the gloves. However Bob has no way to see it, and therefore no way to know of its existence, and even if he could he has no way to identify what it does. Outside of copious metagaming anyway.


Also, self destructive orders are never carried out, so no cutting off nails or hair. It would be alot easier to just buff your charisma out the roof and use Planar Binding to request service for a year.

Personal grooming is classed as self-destructive now? I never realised shaving was akin to cutting ones wrists.


Yeah he was saying if my argument that gear is not explicitly part of a character in the rules, and therefore spells that protect a creature don't protect their gear then...all that. I'm fine with either outcome, but as I said, there doesn't appear to be any text supporting the concept of items being part of a character (except for their saving throws).

As above, carried or worn items are indirectly protected by effects which protect the caster purely by the virtue of being carried or worn. Where the wearer moves the item moves. It's as simple as that. Chips ring may not get to act in the surprise round, but Chip can. And where Chip moves the ring moves. If Chip moves out of sunder reach, the ring is protected.


Edit:
Rejusu: Generating a 20th level character you get that much xp, no more, no less. That's not contrived and even if I were right for the wrong reasons, I'm still right. edit2: Bob doesn't need to hide while charging, it's unclear why you keep bringing that up.

It's contrived in the sense that it'd only happen in this kind of situation. Ie genning two characters to fight each other the moment they come into existence. Much like it's contrived that a Wizard would just be strolling along the ground and a Monk would be waiting in the tall grass to ambush him when he landed.

Also it's not even necessary that when generating a level 20 character you generate a level 20 character. The rules on levelling state you can hold XP for later, meaning that I could come up with a 19th level character that had the same amount of XP as Bob but had a pool of it open for spells with an XP component. It's completely unnecessary though as Chip doesn't even need spells with XP components to beat Bob.

I keep bringing it up because you keep demonstrating big gaps in your system knowledge. Spot is typically an opposed check against a characters hide check. So for Chip to see Bob, Chip has to roll a spot check and Bob must roll a hide check. Chip might get a big penalty for distance but Bob gets an even bigger one for charging. Hence it's more than possible for Chip to spot Bob.

Not that he needs to I might add. Chip after all is never surprised.


You are mistaken. Rejusu and Spuddles have been throwing out spells that aren't on the list or memorized.

Funnily enough, as Deadline has kindly shown I have not. In fact there's even been one instance where I've missed a spell that was actually on Chips list. Meanwhile you've been throwing out items Bob doesn't have, knowledge Bob can't possibly have, and tactics Bob can't possibly employ.

In short the only one mistaken here is you.


Because I am a fool who likes to believe the best about people, I made the assumption that you are not trolling, and in fact found an error in my statement. And since I do so hate hypocrisy, I figured I'd make sure I didn't make an error. I So I went back over every post made in this thread by Spuddles and Rejusu since Chip was listed (post #158).

I admire your dedication. It's funny, I've been trying to play by his rules the entire time and yet he can't even be bothered following them himself. It's worth noting the amount of metagaming he employs, while at the same time accusing everyone else of it.

EDIT: Looks like he's replied since.


Deadline: They mentioned a ton of spells that aren't memorized, that's what Schroedinger's Wizard is, substituting spells that aren't actually memorized to counter any given action. That means you are mistaken, thank you for finding the information for me.

Deadline provided examples. Care to do the same? C'mon Pickford. Show your work.


Gwendol the spell does NOT grant the power to know when your items are coming to harm, it grants the power to know when the SUBJECT is coming to harm. Two distinct objects. It will only provide warning once Chip himself is in danger which does not occur till some time 'after' the ring's destruction. Chip would not be warned if A volcano would cause the migration of an Orc army resulting in the over-running of his tower and his eventual, certain, doom from the powerful Orc casters anymore than he would be warned that if he forgot to put his ring on he might be harmed later in the day or if he forgot to cast a spell he'd fail a saving throw later so he knows to cast the spell in the morning.

False comparison. He's not wearing or carrying his tower. Also why does he need a tower? He has a mansion.


Eldariel: Scrolls say they take a 20 + spell level check, wands just say a check has to be made (no DC mentioned that I saw from flipping through there).

Oh please. What have I told you about reading before you post? Not only have people already pointed out the DC for using a wand (20) it's right there on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm). There's no excuse for this.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel: Scrolls say they take a 20 + spell level check, wands just say a check has to be made (no DC mentioned that I saw from flipping through there).

This is precisely what I'm talking about... Use a Wand: DC 20 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm)

[TiaC]

Personal grooming is classed as self-destructive now? I never realised shaving was akin to cutting ones wrists.
This is Extreme Makeover: Cosmic Edition and joining us here today is the angel Zeruel!
So, Tony, what do you think? Take a few inches off the hair, add a bit of curl and it will go brilliantly with this year's crop of pastel togas. Some people say that angelic fashion has been stuck on the pastel toga look for too many millennia, but I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Eldest]

Alright, starting duel over since apparently Pickford did not read my post except to point out the parts he disagreed with. We shall go with your first set of gear on the revised Bob.

Bob and Chip are 30 feet apart, on a flat, featureless (demi)plane.

Initiative. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14933111&postcount=5883) Chip won.

Chip flies up 30 feet and turns invisible. It is now Bob's turn.

[Philistine]

In a manner similar to Schrodinger's Cat, Bob is apparently being considered as simultaneously being both In Initiative and Not In Initiative. If Chip and Bob are not in Initiative relative to one another, then Chip is free to move about, Shapechange, cast any BFC spells he might have prepared, etc., without regard for action economy. Thus Bob must be in Initiative with Chip, otherwise Chip simply says, "Magic, LOL," and Wins. But if Bob and Chip are in Initiative, Foresight means Chip cannot be flat-footed and can take an Immediate action at any time and for any reason (an example of a "pointless argument" would be the one over the meanings of "danger" and "harm," because Chip can take an Immediate action regardless)... at which point he simply says, "Magic, LOL," and Wins anyway (though from a more restrictive set of Winning moves).

Unlike Schrodinger's Cat, though, Bob is dead in either case. So it's not really that interesting.

[Story]

Why doesn't Chip just kill Bob immediately? Permanacied Arcane Sight will show he's not a threat, but you can never be too careful.

[Randomguy]

Pickford, I had Chip take his turn. Unless you are no longer interested, because in that case I can simply tell you what happens. Or you could have the new Bob face the same Chip. I would have that count as a defeat for the old Bob, though.

You will also need to decide which set of gear you are using.

In which thread did this happen?

[Decatus]

In which thread did this happen?

It was at least a few pages back. Pickford ignored it (like many other things) in order to keep arguing about Foresight or somesuch.

[Karnith]

I didn't know that a particular Character's soul was a material component in a spell. Unfortunately for you, the rules text for the spell component pouch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch) clearly states "A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch." As the hair or nail trimmings or whatever do not have a specific cost, they are present in the pouch. Therefore asserting they are present is technically correct, which I believe is your favorite kind of correctness. And it doesn't even rely on an absurd reading of the text in question, to boot.
Additionally, as I've been saying, you can always just planar bind something and either kill it or bargain with it to get a piece of the creature.

Why doesn't Chip just kill Bob immediately? Permanacied Arcane Sight will show he's not a threat, but you can never be too careful.
Well, Chip doesn't have a permanencied Arcane Sight. This is mostly an oversight on my part. When I was equipping him, I read the Permanency spell wrong and thought that a scroll wouldn't cover Arcane Sight. Since the goal was to not spend XP on Chip's build, I didn't put it on him. Just adding it to him later felt like kind of a cheat.

Also, Pickford: Without a rod of cancellation, Bob's new gear loadout leaves him vulnerable to the Time Stop -> Dimensional Lock -> (Empowered and/or Maximized) Acid Fog -> Forcecage routine.

[Phelix-Mu]

I know this is not the first, nor will it be the last, very long thread on a fairly narrow test subject. But, I still thought that it was worth mentioning:

You've all done very well.

Marathon discussions are awesome, and some of them even provide useful data and conclusions (however divisive and contended) that the rest of us can use.

Kudos, Gratzi, Cheers, Domo Harigato, Danke, Thanks and so forth.

I'm very impressed. I flaked out of this discussion many pages ago.:smallamused:

[Rejusu]

Well, Chip doesn't have a permanencied Arcane Sight. This is mostly an oversight on my part. When I was equipping him, I read the Permanency spell wrong and thought that a scroll wouldn't cover Arcane Sight. Since the goal was to not spend XP on Chip's build, I didn't put it on him. Just adding it to him later felt like kind of a cheat.

Also, Pickford: Without a rod of cancellation, Bob's new gear loadout leaves him vulnerable to the Time Stop -> Dimensional Lock -> (Empowered and/or Maximized) Acid Fog -> Forcecage routine.

Considering that Pickfords character didn't have feats, skill ranks, or certain magic items added until later I doubt anyone would say it'd be cheating. Except Pickford of course.

He's also missing Freedom of Movement now.



Marathon discussions are awesome, and some of them even provide useful data and conclusions (however divisive and contended) that the rest of us can use.

I guess some things have come of it. Right now I'm interested if spell turning actually prevents discern location. I'm leaning towards the argument that it doesn't because specific overrules general. Spell turning states it reflects the next X level of spells (general) and Discern Location says that nothing short of a mind blank or direct deity intervention prevents it (specific).

However I googled it and it doesn't look like a topic that's been explored before.

[Randomguy]

Here's another question: If you've got both a ring of spell turning active and a rod of absorption, and you're hit by a ray spell, is it turned or absorbed?

[Crinias]

You might as well ask the same question only with a ring of counterspells and a ring of spell turning. There's nothing in the rules that says which comes first.

[Talya]

I've seen these arguments before... What was the name... Giovanetti? Giovani? Giacomo? I can't remember now.

[Karnith]

I've seen these arguments before... What was the name... Giovanetti? Giovani? Giacomo? I can't remember now.
Sir_Giacomo, who in my opinion was the funniest monk defender of all time, even if unintentionally.

I'm just glad that UMDing partially-charged wands only came up in jest in this thread.

[Pickford]

Karnith: Hrm good point, well I guess I'll amend that gear list to maintain the rod, it's only 11k and both sets of gear have at least 22k to spare.

Edit: You should purchase scrolls if they require xp, as new 20th level characters nobody can use xp components.

Eldariel: You're right about UMD, I missed the part for wands. I'd need to pick up 11 ranks of UMD total. I suppose this is do-able. Do you suggest an alternative? (I could hire a day-laborer with 11 ranks to follow me around and cast it for like a silver a day right? ;))

There's no way to know a Monk has no chance unless a legitimate test is run. And a legitimate test would involve a scenario that is possible in a real game of d&d (nobody adventures on a demi-plan devoid of features) not one pre-rigged to benefit classes that are hampered by cover/concealment (i.e. spellcasters).

Eldest: I of course agree to test this with you, but I reject the notion of any kind of a featureless demi-plane for the obvious reason that real d&d encounters never happen on a featureless demi-plane. We could rotate scenery. Post your wizard? (Or are you running with Chip as is?) edit: I'm guessing just Chip as is. If you're starting a new scenario (since the otherone is still at the point of Chip having one initiative after his ring was sundered) I'll take it the first has ceded the win to Bob.

Phillistine: Actually Bob and Chip have to make spot checks to have an encounter at all. However simply seeing someone does not an encounter initiate. Because Bob has +27 (new Bob, different than old Bob) and Chip has +6 to spot Bob will see Chip first. Meaning: As long as Bob is just doing things to prepare for Chip, and not threatening him, Bob can buff himself and 'then' initiate combat into rounds. As Chip is unaware of Bob's existence he would not be allowed to take combat actions.

If this were an actual game the DM would make both Bob and Chip's spot checks secretly then inform Bob that he sees a large humanoid flying in the sky/walking on the ground. Bob could then act accordingly and do so without initiating combat. Indeed, since Bob is faster than Chip, Bob could simply shadow Chip until Chip lands. (assuming flight of course) and 'then' initiate an encounter. Chip would remain unaware of Bob until Bob engages. (all things being equal)

Story: I'm pretty sure Chip will try to defend himself once he sees Bob...but his spot modifier (vision) is so terrible he won't see Bob until combat starts or Bob gets close enough. (i.e. after Bob has seen Chip) Arcane Sight doesn't give you a better spot modifier. Bad vision is bad vision.

Gwendol, Thunndarr: I think we recognize the basic disagreement stems to three things:

1) Are items considered in the game rules to be part of the creature who wears/holds them? i.e. Do effects that protect the creature also protect the various items they carry/wear? To this I have found no evidence. If you see evidence that this is the case (from 'any' book, not just the core) I would like to see it. And:

2) What constitutes impending harm to a subject? I limit harm to things that cause direct damage/effects on the subject of the spell. So they are about to fall off a cliff or be crushed by a rock or be targeted by a spell or weapon, they know. But that is it. It's easy to begin extending this basic power to other things and your answer seems to extend harm to things that don't actually harm the subject. Losing Freedom of Movement when not in a position to become entangled isn't a problem, losing fire resistance/immunity when not in a fire is not a problem, now...if the subject were in the middle of a Web spell or Standing in a magical/natural fire and those things were going to be targeted...then the subject would know, I agree. But lacking an impending harm or danger no warning would be given. For example: If there is a lever and pulling that lever disintigrates all items/clothing in the room but leaves characters untouched, there would be no warning as it, strictly speaking, does not harm a hair on the subject's head. And:

3) What does it mean to not be surprised/flatfooted. This one is easiest because both have definitions. Not being surprised means always being able to act in the surprise round in combat. Not being flatfooted means retaining the dex bonus. And these have tangible definitions within the spell too: +2 AC, +2 reflex save. However, these benefits do nothing and have no actual game meaning if not in combat.

Kalaska:
Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. And lifting material != moving it laterally or while in motion. This trick doesn't work because of the limits on the spell. It shows ingenuity (which I always applaud) but it's more than the spell can achieve.

In regards to the spell component you're right that I do love quoting Futurama on this. However you should know something: It only carries 15lbs. That's not enough space to carry the hair/nail samples of every living creature ever to have existed. Because you see, if those don't have a price then it's assumed they are in the pouch. Which means there is enough material in every spell pouch to create a black hole instantly killing Chip 'and' destroying the universe. (Density = infinity)....but you know on reflection that seems pretty silly, then there wouldn't be 'any' Wizards. Maybe, what it really means is, spell components which are common are sold with spell pouches, those that are expensive or difficult to acquire (i.e. specific to a person the spell must affect), one has to collect them before they're in the pouch. Otherwise there would be more hair samples of Chip (every Wizard in existance would have one) than Chip has ever had hairs...or clipped nails. And of course they would all turn into black holes/quasars which might put a damper on the ability of anyone to learn magic.

Greenish: Oh good grief. Do the nails/hair have a price in there too? If so we can at least know they can't be in the spell pouches and the universe is safe.

Deadline: You 'are' mistaken. I got tired of counting the number of times someone tried to use a spell or other feature not on Chip's list after around 20 examples; Please note Spuddles specifically mentions Celerity at least 4 times. in the spoiler below:

Chip's memorized and known spells (and metamagic rods):

"Typical" Spells Prepared: 0-Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Touch of Fatigue, Message
1-True Strike, Mage Armor (cast), Grease, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Feather Fall
2-Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Web, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Mirror Image (x2), Rope Trick
3-Arcane Sight, Displacement, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon (already cast), Wind Wall, Sleet Storm, Haste, Nondetection (already cast)
4- Detect Scrying (already cast), Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Solid Fog (x2), Wall of Ice, Enervation, Resilient Sphere
5-Quickened True Strike, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Overland Flight (already cast), Telekinesis, Extended Greater Invisibility
6-Prying Eyes (already cast), Greater Dispel Magic (x2), Acid Fog, Wall of Iron, Disintegrate,
7-Extended True Seeing, Forcecage, Grasping Hand (+47 bonus to grapple, +42 to hit), Greater Teleport, Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity
8-Moment of Prescience (cast), Polar Ray (x2), Mind Blank (cast), Dimensional Lock, Clenched Fist (+44 bonus to hit), Empowered Acid Fog
9- Foresight (cast, rod-extended), Shapechange (cast, rod-extended), Time Stop, Crushing Hand (+49 bonus to grapple, +44 to hit), Disjunction, Gate

Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (24,000), Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize (121,500),

Spellbook:
0-All
1-Alarm, Color Spray, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Floating Disk, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Summon Monster I, True Strike
2-Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Levitate, Locate Object, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II, Web
3- Arcane Sight, Blink, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Daylight, Dispel Magic Displacement, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Major Image, Nondetection, Sleet Storm, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch, Wind Wall
4-Animate Dead, Arcane Eye, Black Tentacles, Detect Scrying, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Enervation, Fear, Ice Storm, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Polymorph, Resilient Sphere, Scrying, Solid Fog, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
5-Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Contact Other Plane, Dismissal, Interposing Hand, Magic Jar, Overland Flight, Shadow Evocation, Summon Monster V, Telekinesis, Telepathic Bond, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force
6-Acid Fog, Analyze Dweomer, Antimagic Field, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Forceful Hand, Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Mislead, Repulsion, Prying Eyes, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron
7-Banishment, Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt, Finger of Death, Forcecage, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Project Image, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, Summon Monster VII Waves of Exhaustion
8-Clenched Fist, Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Fog, Maze, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Polar Ray, Polymorph Any Object, Screen, Summon Monster VIII
9-Astral Projection, Crushing Hand, Disjunction, Foresight, Gate, Shades, Shapechange, Summon Monster IX Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wish

snippets:
Rejusu:
"or a wall of force with the scult spell feat applied?" - Sculpt Spell is not applied. (Shaping Mastery applies to Area and Effect spells only.)
"And aren't we also forgetting about quicken spell as well?" - Can't be applied now.
"By this point he's already gated in some nasties to wear you down while he buffs up. Also there's items like ring gates which a wizard can merely attach to one of the aforementioned nasties allowing him a portal big enough to cast spells through that won't expose him too much." - Beyond not being able to cast Gate, Chip doesn't have Ring Gates.
"What? Two forcecages? There are plenty of situations in which you might need it and a Wizard can put you into many of them without really trying." - One Forcecage is memorized, not two.
"Acting like every spell effect with an XP component is being paid for with the Wizards XP IS ignoring WBL. Every time something like gate or wish has been brought up you respond with "well the Wizard would be level 19 then because they would have spent XP on it". Which just completely ignores the fact that all these things can be bought with gold.
- Chip didn't buy any scrolls of Wish or Gate. So it's not possible.

Spuddles:
"CL20 chained (via rod) greater dispels" - Does not have a metamagic rod of chain spell. Does not have Greater Dispel memorized.
"a Dream Larvae or Phane Gated in via a CL20 scroll of Gate" - Does not have a scroll of Gate.
"How does the monk get to ever go first? Between celerity & moment of prescience, and foresight," - Oh Celerity which isn't in the spellbook even?
"Anticipate Teleport, Greater is practically a 6th level auto-time stop. Every time the monk tries to [teleport] to within 100ft of the wizard, he gets delayed for 3 rounds with no idea he is being delayed for 3 rounds." - Not in the spellbook.
"Here is how all 500 rounds go.
Surprise round: wizard is not surprised. He notices monk thanks to greater arcane sight- our wizard hates creatures without spellcasting with a passion and attacks them on sight. Wizard casts celerity.
Celerity round. Wizard casts Gate 5 times (via scroll if he's not allowed to use xp) to call 5 Dream Larva to surround monk." - 2nd time No celerity, and no scrolls of gate purchased.
"As an immediate action Celerity." - 3rd time.
"A monk is charging towards a wizard that is detected via mindsight/lifesight" - Also not on spell list nor memorized.
"There is absolutely no reason a level 20 wizard, while adventuring, wouldnt have arcane sight, prying eyes, invisibility (via ring), overland flight, foresight, moment of prescience, and shapechange up, at a bare minimum of defense. And that's a Core. Outside of Core we get persisted permeable form, ultralithid and mindsight for autodetection of any creature with an int score within 200ft, greater anticipate teleport, superior invisibility, greater mirror image, ironguard, energy immunity, superior resistance, etc.
"c) mindsight." - A feat, but still something that isn't there.

"With foresight and celerity, there is literally no way the monk gets to go first," - 4th time No celerity, no invisibility ring. No permeable form, ultrawhatever, energy immunity or any kind of resistanc (superior or otherwise).

Crinias:
"This is assuming that the Wizard doesn't have Greater Arcane Sight and/or Analyze Dweomer" - No Greater Arcane Sight nor Analyze Dweomer memorized

Eldariel:
"Also, Chain Greater Dispel can be chained through your items first to disable them before disabling you." - Yet another use of Chain spell without the ability to.
"Wizard casts Celerity, turn into Choker as a free action for extra standard action, Time Stop, True Casting + Maximized Maw of Chaos. Second turn, Forcecage, Quickened Dimension Lock (with Rod of Greater Quicken Spell). Ready action to cast a second Forcecage if the Forcecage is dispelled in any way." - Fatal Error: Celerity still not on that list. Limit of one spell per round negates Time Stop + True Casting + Maximized Maw of Choas (3 standard actions!) No Rod of Greater Quick Spell is on Chip.

Story:
"Anyway, if you stay on the ground and twiddle your thumbs, what's stopping the Wizard from just blasting away with Hail of Stones, or any of the many other spells that ignore cover and concealment?" - One thing that stops it is not having it memorized that day.

ArcturusV:
"Funny enough, I was just reminded of Planar Binding. Level 20 wizard probably has his own made up plane somewhere. Or has a home on the astral plane, etc. Can Planar Bind the Monk. Then because Monks are SAD, probably easily succeed a Charisma Check to say "The service you will do for me is kill yourself" with only a +6 modifier for the Monk. SR doesn't apply, just a will save. Which the Wizard can jack up and beat pretty easily." - No Planar Binding, and HD cap stops at 18.

[Story]

Well Pickford did suggest using Wands with his one rank in UMD and negative charisma.

[Spuddles]

Deadline: You 'are' mistaken. I got tired of counting the number of times someone tried to use a spell or other feature not on Chip's list after around 20 examples; Please note Spuddles specifically mentions Celerity at least 4 times. in the spoiler below:

That's because I wasn't limiting myself to Core :smallannoyed:

[Thunndarr]

Gwendol, Thunndarr: I think we recognize the basic disagreement stems to three things:

1) Are items considered in the game rules to be part of the creature who wears/holds them? i.e. Do effects that protect the creature also protect the various items they carry/wear? To this I have found no evidence. If you see evidence that this is the case (from 'any' book, not just the core) I would like to see it. And:

2) What constitutes impending harm to a subject? I limit harm to things that cause direct damage/effects on the subject of the spell. So they are about to fall off a cliff or be crushed by a rock or be targeted by a spell or weapon, they know. But that is it. It's easy to begin extending this basic power to other things and your answer seems to extend harm to things that don't actually harm the subject. Losing Freedom of Movement when not in a position to become entangled isn't a problem, losing fire resistance/immunity when not in a fire is not a problem, now...if the subject were in the middle of a Web spell or Standing in a magical/natural fire and those things were going to be targeted...then the subject would know, I agree. But lacking an impending harm or danger no warning would be given. For example: If there is a lever and pulling that lever disintigrates all items/clothing in the room but leaves characters untouched, there would be no warning as it, strictly speaking, does not harm a hair on the subject's head. And:



1: It doesn't matter.

2. You're clearly not reading the spell as written.

"This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell."

So, because you can't read, you've been misinterpreting the spell. The subject need not be harmed to have the spell activate. Repeat: the subject need not be harmed for the spell to activate. One final time, the subject need not be harmed for the spell to activate. It's written, it could not be more explicit.

What constitutes danger? Well, if the subject's defenses are removed, logically and unequivocally, the subject is less safe. Less safe=more danger, THE EXACT SITUATION IN WHICH THE SPELL ACTIVATES. HENCE, THE SPELL ACTIVATES IN TIME FOR THE WIZARD TO REACT. RAW.

[NecroRebel]

2) What constitutes impending harm to a subject?

Haven't multiple people pointed out that "what constitutes impending harm to a subject" is irrelevant? What's important, and what you've not addressed to my recollection, is what constitutes impending danger to a subject. "Some guy is about to attack me" is unambiguously impending danger, that's what's happening when Bob is about to run in to try to sunder a piece of Chip's equipment as an opening to his attack on him, and Foresight explicitly warns of that and gives the caster a general idea of what to do to avoid or minimize said danger.

Because Chip is not surprised or flat-footed and neither is Bob and Chip and Bob are the only potential combatants, no surprise round occurs. Bob cannot do his little charge thing before initiative is rolled because that is necessarily a combat action and the only time combat actions may be taken before initiative is rolled is during a surprise round, which doesn't occur because nobody is surprised.

The short of it is that the instant Bob starts to attack, Chip becomes aware that someone is about to attack him, initiative is rolled, and if Chip wins initiative (probable; 78.5% by my calculation), he can do whatever Foresight suggests would minimize the danger (for instance, flying straight up) before Bob's charge actually occurs. Even if Chip loses initiative, Bob does his charge and sunders (whatever you were wanting to sunder at this point; you've changed your mind several times), then Chip takes his action and through several means that have been discussed can kill Bob or make Bob otherwise no longer a threat. Regardless, Bob functionally loses outright.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I just discovered how I can gain more spells known as a VOP wizard :smallbiggrin:. Boccob's reading room lets you add a spell and it is taken out of your WBL. However, since you are never spending money directly with WBL you can gain the benefits while still being poor.

[Gnorman]

If you're going to engage in a debate about RAW, it might be helpful to use the principles of an analogous field.

To that end, I leave you with principles of statutory interpretation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation#Textual).

Pickford's argument about Foresight strikes me as violating the plain meaning rule (what could be debatable about "You are never surprised or flat-footed," full-stop?). It also could be a strained or absurd result, generally disfavored - Pickford's interpretation requires an extremely esoteric definition of combat, danger, harm, etc., whereas the opposite interpretation merely relies on the literal language of the spell.

god I've waited so long to apply law school to D&D

[Thunndarr]

"Surprise: When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised."

Foresight: You are never surprised.

Logic: Never surprised, thus, absolutely, 100% has to mean that the subject of a foresight spell is always aware of his opponents. No surprise round.

[Pickford]

Alright, starting duel over since apparently Pickford did not read my post except to point out the parts he disagreed with. We shall go with your first set of gear on the revised Bob.

Bob and Chip are 30 feet apart, on a flat, featureless (demi)plane.

Initiative. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14933111&postcount=5883) Chip won.

Chip flies up 30 feet and turns invisible. It is now Bob's turn.

Ok, Chip's at 136 and it's his move.

Roll thread: here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14936413#post14936413)

Story: I did apologize for not seeing it.

Spuddles: Nor Chip's character sheet which was the point I was making to Deadline.

Thunndarr: It does matter because that is determinant in if the spell provides any warning. The spell explains danger as things that threaten the character, none of the examples given threaten the character's items. So your interpretation would be an overexpansive reading that has no basis in the spell text. That's part of why I asked question 1. If you can find text to suppor that, you would be correct, otherwise it's just wishful thinking.

NecroRebel: If something doesn't harm the subject there's no warning so that's central. I'd argue it's something along the lines of the examples provided. Something that will physically hurt the character. (Melee, ranged, or spell attacks on the character and natural dangers (falling rocks))

The distinction here is that Sunder does not target a character. It targets objects, which means the subject of the spell is never in any danger nor can sundering an object harm the subject in and of itself.

No surprise round occurs, but only Bob is aware at first, this allows Bob to act until Chip becomes aware of Bob. This is 'not' a surprise round. If Bob is able to close on Chip then Bob can sunder the item without Chip being aware of it. Since Bob can become aware of Chip at several hundred feet it would be easy to circle around and approach from behind, eliminating any chance of Chip seeing Bob approach. So long as Bob does 'not' attack Chips body Foresight won't warn because Foresight would only be protecting Chip, not items near or on Chip.

You would be right if Bob attacked Chip to cause damage, trip, grapple or disarm Chip would become aware, but Sunder is different because the attack is made on something 'other than' Chip.

Thunndarr: DMG pg. 22 the section One Side Aware First explains best what is occurring. And this happens 'before' any Surprise round would.

Gnorman: D&D uses plain meaning as well.

Danger: obsolete: harm, damage
Harm: physical or mental damage : injury
Injury: an act that damages or hurts

So Danger refers to harm, which refers to physical or mental damage (injury) which is
...the same definition I used.

[Thunndarr]

What constitutes danger? Well, if the subject's defenses are removed, logically and unequivocally, the subject is less safe. Less safe=more danger, THE EXACT SITUATION IN WHICH THE SPELL ACTIVATES. HENCE, THE SPELL ACTIVATES IN TIME FOR THE WIZARD TO REACT. RAW.

Going to repeat this ad nauseum.

[Thunndarr]

The spell explains danger as things that threaten the character

That's a flat out lie. But even if it were true, it's a pretty broad definition, and once again, destroying an item a character uses for protection IS a threat. There is no other way to slice it.

[Gnorman]

Gnorman: D&D uses plain meaning as well.

Danger: obsolete: harm, damage
Harm: physical or mental damage : injury
Injury: an act that damages or hurts

So Danger refers to harm, which refers to physical or mental damage (injury) which is
...the same definition I used.

You can redefine harm and danger and injury all you want, but you're not dealing with the issue at hand. You're interpreting flavor language as rules text.

"You cannot be surprised or flat-footed." It does not say "You cannot be surprised or flat-footed if in danger, or in harm's way."

"When only one side is aware of the other, the DM runs the first round of combat as a surprise round." DMG 23.

Sunder and disarm attempts are both melee ATTACKS, which by definition are combat actions.

There is no way for Bob to do either without initiating combat. Chip is not surprised, and so gets to act in the first round of combat. There is no way for Chip to remove or destroy the ring without first being in combat, at which Chip has multiple options.

[Thunndarr]

"Gnorman: D&D uses plain meaning as well.

Danger: obsolete: harm, damage
Harm: physical or mental damage : injury
Injury: an act that damages or hurts"

Citation.

[Gnorman]

"Gnorman: D&D uses plain meaning as well.

Danger: obsolete: harm, damage
Harm: physical or mental damage : injury
Injury: an act that damages or hurts"

Citation.

Likely the dictionary.

[Forrestfire]

Danger: obsolete: harm, damage
Harm: physical or mental damage : injury
Injury: an act that damages or hurts

So Danger refers to harm, which refers to physical or mental damage (injury) which is
...the same definition I used.

... :smallsigh:


dan·ger
/ˈdānjər/
Noun
1)The possibility of suffering harm or injury: "his life was in danger".
2)A person or thing that is likely to cause harm or injury: "drought is a danger".




harm
/härm/

Noun
1) Physical injury, esp. that which is deliberately inflicted.

Verb
1) Physically injure: "the villains didn't harm him".



in·jure
/ˈinjər/
Verb
1)Do physical harm or damage to (someone).
2)Suffer physical harm or damage to (a part of one's body): "he injured his back".

Danger does not refer to harm. It refers to the possibility of harm.

[Thunndarr]

Likely the dictionary.

Sorry, I don't know what kind of dictionary would list danger as obsolete. Hence, it seemed he was citing something from one of the books.

[Thunndarr]

... :smallsigh:







Danger does not refer to harm. It refers to the possibility of harm.

So, this entire discussion on foresight is predicated on the fact that Pickford doesn't know that "harm" and "danger" are different things? /facepalm

[Gnorman]

dan·ger
/ˈdānjər/
Noun
1)The possibility of suffering harm or injury: "his life was in danger".
2)A person or thing that is likely to cause harm or injury: "drought is a danger".

Let me play devil's advocate here for a second. By this definition, Bob would not be a danger - he is not likely to cause harm or injury to Chip.

Bob is now the Catch-22 Monk - if he IS dangerous, he triggers Foresight and Chip deals with him... without any danger, because there is basically no chance Bob can threaten Chip at that point. If he IS NOT dangerous, he doesn't trigger Foresight, and so could feasibly cause harm to Chip - but then he IS dangerous, and so forth...

[ArcturusV]

It's probably due to modern interpretation versus olde interpretation.

For example: Ironic.

It's old (And never used anymore outside English Classes) meaning is "The use of a word other than it's explicitly intended meaning".

What people take it to mean is something like "A karmic coincidence leading to a tragic downfall".

Thus danger might have meant "Harm". But it's currently accepted use is different. At the very least, my actual, paper and hardcover edition of Random House's Webster's College Dictionary lists it as:

Danger: 1. Liability or exposure to harm or risk. 2. an instance or cause of peril; menace. 3. Obs. power; jurisdiction; domain.

Noting that definition number one would implicitly imply stripping of protections would in fact be "Danger".

Though again, this is like arguing if moss grows on the north side or the south side of a tree in the northern hemisphere. There IS a correct answer, north. But in reality the question you were being asked to answer is "Is there moss in the forest?"... of which that debate has no impact on what so ever.

Such as, the "I cannot be surprised/flatfooted".

[Thunndarr]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a second. By this definition, Bob would not be a danger - he is not likely to cause harm or injury to Chip.

Bob is now the Catch-22 Monk - if he IS dangerous, he triggers Foresight and Chip deals with him... without any danger, because there is basically no chance Bob can threaten Chip at that point. If he IS NOT dangerous, he doesn't trigger Foresight, and so could feasibly cause harm to Chip - but then he IS dangerous, and so forth...

Sorry, it's been explained *multiple* times, that by destroying an item that Chip uses to keep himself safe, then he *is* placing Chip in danger. Relatively speaking, if I'm not as safe 5 seconds from now as I am right now, I'm in danger. This is very simple logic.

[Gnorman]

Sorry, it's been explained *multiple* times, that by destroying an item that Chip uses to keep himself safe, then he *is* placing Chip in danger. Relatively speaking, if I'm not as safe 5 seconds from now as I am right now, I'm in danger. This is very simple logic.

Yes, but Bob is a monk. Monks are not "likely to cause harm or injury," except maybe to themselves.

... it was a joke.

[NecroRebel]

NecroRebel: If something doesn't harm the subject there's no warning so that's central.

[Citation Needed]

The spell doesn't require the subject to be harmed. The spell's text is available on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm). Should you bother to read it, you'll note that the second sentence specifies that it warns of impending danger, and somebody approaching with intent to harm you is unambiguously danger. Foresight explicitly warns of imminent danger, so it explicitly warns of the imminent approach of somebody with intent to harm.


I'd argue it's something along the lines of the examples provided. Something that will physically hurt the character. (Melee, ranged, or spell attacks on the character and natural dangers (falling rocks))

...And your argument would continue to be unconvincing. While those things that you've listed just now are dangers, they aren't by any means a complete list. Argue that the approach of someone with intent to do harm is not danger, if you can; that's the only way that you can bypass Foresight.


The distinction here is that Sunder does not target a character. It targets objects, which means the subject of the spell is never in any danger nor can sundering an object harm the subject in and of itself.

...Why even bring this up anymore? It's irrelevant.


No surprise round occurs, but only Bob is aware at first, this allows Bob to act until Chip becomes aware of Bob. This is 'not' a surprise round. If Bob is able to close on Chip then Bob can sunder the item without Chip being aware of it. Since Bob can become aware of Chip at several hundred feet it would be easy to circle around and approach from behind, eliminating any chance of Chip seeing Bob approach. So long as Bob does 'not' attack Chips body Foresight won't warn because Foresight would only be protecting Chip, not items near or on Chip.

You would be right if Bob attacked Chip to cause damage, trip, grapple or disarm Chip would become aware, but Sunder is different because the attack is made on something 'other than' Chip.

It's not a surprise round, so both characters roll initiative. Chip is aware that there is danger due to Foresight (this is something it explicitly does) and has a general idea of what he can do to protect himself from this danger due to Foresight (this is something else that it explicitly does). He is not aware that "Bob the monk is about to approach with the goal of killing me," but he is aware that "something dangerous" is about to happen. It just so happens that "Bob the monk is about to approach with the goal of killing me" is "something dangerous." This is how Chip is protected by Foresight, and you have utterly failed to avoid triggering it.

Again, argue, if you can, that "Bob the monk is about to approach Chip with intent to harm Chip" is not impending danger to Chip. No other argument will bypass Foresight, and if he cannot bypass Foresight Bob simply loses.



By the way, I miscalculated the chance of Chip winning initiative. It's actually 83.5%. I had previously erroneously assumed that natural 1s were automatic losses.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.