Winged Creature Template on Player Character worth it?

[MustacheFart]

Okay,

I am currently playing a Swift Hunter build with a 1 level dip into Cloistured Cleric that uses the Mystic Ranger variant rather than normal Ranger. Last session my character was level 2 with a level of Cloistured Cleric and a level of Scout. We actually finished a module and ended up gaining enough exp to go from 2nd level all the way to 4th. Jokingly, I brought up templates to my DM a while back and he informed that they weren't banned but needed to be approved on a case by case basis.

Well, looking around I came upon several threads that mentioned the Winged Creature template as a method of gaining flight. Flight is obviously a good ability to have and I've actually been wanting actual wings on this character.

My DM has ruled that I can pick up the template right now instead of taking my next two levels since the template has a +2 LA. Also he's ruled that I can use the LA buyoff from Unearthed Arcana.

Looking at the template, I see that not only would it give me flight with a flight speed = to my landspeed + 20' and perfect maneuverability due to my dex, it would also boost my dex by +4 and my wisdom by +2. Seeing as how my casting uses wisdom and my wisdom score is currently 12 this could be a great benefit toward being able to cast my 5th level spells (would only need 1 more point of wis).

I am worried though, as my DM has pointed out, that it may take way too long to catch up to the rest of the party in level to make such a pursuit worth it. Opinions?

NOTE: We are using a custom loot system based off the Wealth by Level chart where we get a set amount of gold at each new level to (re)buy all of our gear (including magic items). Thus, wealth isn't exceptionally high.

[Panzerbjorn]

If you are chaotic aligned then the half-fey tamplate is better. flying, SLAs, dex +2, con -2, wis +2, cha +4, plus some other stuffs. +2 LA FF
I you are evil, go unseelie fey template. Depending on your DM you can either pick and choose or roll for your stuff. basically just a lesser version of half-fey template with a +0 LA. DC

[8wGremlin]

Unseelie fae template (dragon compendium) is very good.

Also if your an Assimar or Tiefling there is a feat called outsider wings, that gives you flight (nb, you can be lesser version of these races as well)

[Pesimismrocks]

It depends. There are other ways to gain wings like dragonborn or unseelie fey and the LA +2 is a lot.

However +4 to Dex is great for an archer based ranger( or other ranged based class) as well. And the fluff seems to fit what you want. Really in the end there are 3 questions.

1. How badly do you want wings?
2. Is it worth losing two levels?
3. Would other templates for a lower LA be an acceptable thematic substitute?

[Averis Vol]

it also grants a +2 to wis, so good for cleric too :D As for the two LA.....well you have no BaB right now, so I probably wouldn't take it myself, maybe over the next few levels when you can actually draw a weapon as part of a move.

[Rejusu]

Dragonborn template will also give you wings and is a +0 template. They don't start off as good, but they scale with your level.

[MustacheFart]

It depends. There are other ways to gain wings like dragonborn or unseelie fey and the LA +2 is a lot.

However +4 to Dex is great for an archer based ranger( or other ranged based class) as well. And the fluff seems to fit what you want. Really in the end there are 3 questions.

1. How badly do you want wings?
2. Is it worth losing two levels?
3. Would other templates for a lower LA be an acceptable thematic substitute?

Answers:

1) Not enough to ruin the build over it or slow the progression so much that I can never catch up to the rest of the party.
2) Well I'd only lose them for a while. DM has approved LA buyoff.
3) Sure, barring alignment restrictions.

Things to note guys:

- I am Lawful Good (may become N. Good over time though)
- I am human
- If I want a template that has a +1 or +2 LA I need to pick it now as I have two blank levels I've earned. As I've mentioned, last session we gained enough experience for my character to go from level 2 to 4. This is the main reason my DM approved it as I have two levels to play with without putting my ECL above any of the other players. So to take it in the future I'd have to either level twice in a row again (not likely) or pick a template with a smaller LA.

Thanks so much for the help guys!

My real concerns with taking the template are:

1) As already mentioned, not having a BAB for until i level again (to ECL 5; class level 3)
2) Dieing from having lower saves & hitpoints compared to the rest of the party; although I do have the wealth of a level 4 character to spend on magic items even though I'd only have 2 actual class levels.
3) Not catching up to the rest of the party until way high level. If we did standard encounters is there a way to tell at what level I will have caught up to the other players (using LA buyoff from UA)?

Thanks.

[Rejusu]

Answers:

1) Not enough to ruin the build over it or slow the progression so much that I can never catch up to the rest of the party.
2) Well I'd only lose them for a while. DM has approved LA buyoff.
3) Sure, barring alignment restrictions.

Things to note guys:

- I am Lawful Good (may become N. Good over time though)
- I am human
- If I want a template that has a +1 or +2 LA I need to pick it now as I have two blank levels I've earned. As I've mentioned, last session we gained enough experience for my character to go from level 2 to 4. This is the main reason my DM approved it as I have two levels to play with without putting my ECL above any of the other players. So to take it in the future I'd have to either level twice in a row again (not likely) or pick a template with a smaller LA.

Thanks so much for the help guys!

My real concerns with taking the template are:

1) As already mentioned, not having a BAB for until i level again (to ECL 5; class level 3)
2) Dieing from having lower saves & hitpoints compared to the rest of the party; although I do have the wealth of a level 4 character to spend on magic items even though I'd only have 2 actual class levels.
3) Not catching up to the rest of the party until way high level. If we did standard encounters is there a way to tell at what level I will have caught up to the other players (using LA buyoff from UA)?

Thanks.

If those are your concerns I wouldn't take the LA. Plus one adjustments can be tough to justify and anything higher you need to be getting really good stuff in return. I would say take the class levels and look at the dragonborn template and see if it gives you what you're looking for.

[paigeoliver]

My biggest concern as GM is that the character would have little chance of survival if an CR+2 or CR+3 solo monster got a full attack off on him, and then he would have to get raised and then he would be even further behind.

Let us say he had the wings right now at ECL 4. He would have around 18 hit points. The CR 7 Ogre barbarian from the monster manual is a perfectly valid solo monster for the party he is in (5-6 ECL 3-4 characters). If that thing took a swing at him it would almost certainly hit and it would do 25 damage in one shot, taking him right on down to -7. Rolling just a little bit high would one shot him to -10. That is far from an extreme example, there are plenty of lower CR monsters that would one shot him as well.

[Pesimismrocks]

In my opinion at first it appears that it may ruin your build, and you would be at a disadvantage. However +4 Dex is worth two levels of BaB and will be better at higher levels when you have more loot in the form of +Dex items. However one thing you need to make sure is that you stay out of reach of monsters, and Pelor help you if you get into a flying encounter. Really it depends on how you think it will affect the build.

Also do not get Dragonborn for a ranged template. -2Dex will really weaken your character.

Perhaps some stats so it would be easier to see where the character is going.

[Averis Vol]

My biggest concern as GM is that the character would have little chance of survival if an CR+2 or CR+3 solo monster got a full attack off on him, and then he would have to get raised and then he would be even further behind.

Let us say he had the wings right now at ECL 4. He would have around 18 hit points. The CR 7 Ogre barbarian from the monster manual is a perfectly valid solo monster for the party he is in (5-6 ECL 3-4 characters). If that thing took a swing at him it would almost certainly hit and it would do 25 damage in one shot, taking him right on down to -7. Rolling just a little bit high would one shot him to -10. That is far from an extreme example, there are plenty of lower CR monsters that would one shot him as well.

ya see, but now hes in the air, that thing is getting nowhere near him; that is the balancing point.

[paigeoliver]

Unless the encounter is one of the large number of encounters that take place indoors. Even outdoors he needs to stay within 30' to ensure skirmish damage and a large creature with reach can hit 20' up already. An ogre with a spiked chain can swat him out of the sky if he comes withing skirmish range.

Not that I would particularly have spiked chain ogres swatting him out of the sky. I was just pointing out that the flight doesn't really fix the danger problem. It isn't much use indoors and outdoors he is still stuck staying within 30' for precision damage.

His build is a variation on the common swift hunter with cloistered cleric dip. With the wings he would have his first point of base attack bonus at ECL 5.



ya see, but now hes in the air, that thing is getting nowhere near him; that is the balancing point.

[MustacheFart]

Perhaps some stats so it would be easier to see where the character is going.

Here's the build from another thread I created here for it several weeks back:

Race: Human
Class: LVL 1 Scout
Stats (24-point buy due to Tier 1 Cloistered Cleric dip):

STR:10
DEX:14
CON:12
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Init: +8 (at lvl 1; dex + Imp. Init + Trait)

Skills:

Knowledge (Arcane, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, The Planes, Religion) - 4 ranks each
Spot - 4 ranks
Listen - 4 ranks
Tumble - 4 ranks

FEATS: Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Human), Education (Flaw 1), Travel Devotion (Flaw 2)

Flaws: Feeble (DM won't allow Murky-Eye bypass) and Noncombatant
Trait: Aggressive (+2 Init, -1 AC)

Additional levels:
2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Time Domain) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Extra Turning
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ Favored Enemy [Undead]
5) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: wish I could get it earlier)
6) Scout 2 ~ Planar Touchstone(Oxyrhynchus)
7) Scout 3 ~
8) Scout 4 ~ Swift Hunter(bonus feat)
9) Mystic Range 4 ~ Endurance (bonus), Improved Skirmish (9th level feat)
10) Mystic Ranger 5
11) Mystic Ranger 6
12) Mystic Ranger 7 ~ Sword of the Arcane Order (12th level feat), Manyshot (bonus)
13) Mystic Ranger 8
14) Mystic Ranger 9 ~ Evasion (bonus)
15) Mystic Ranger 10 ~ Greater Manyshot (15th level feat)
16) Mystic Ranger 11
17) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus)
18) Mystic Ranger 13 ~ FREE FEAT SLOT
19) Mystic Ranger 14
20) Mystic Ranger 15

Also worth noting is that we get gold at each level based on WBL chart to use to (re)buy our equipment at each level up. So, there is no loot drops but I can pretty much buy anything I want if I can afford it.

Paige can probably post the gold chart if that would help but at ECL 4 I have 7200 gold. Anything nonmagic under 25g is free.

[paigeoliver]

Paige can probably post the gold chart if that would help but at ECL 4 I have 7200 gold. Anything nonmagic under 25g is free.

Here is my chart, it is based on the amount of gold a character would have in the middle of the level instead of at the beginning of the level. Basically whenever you level up to a new level you reassign your gear however you want up to the listed value (you can always hold some back too). There are a few limitations on consumables and such, but they shouldn't be important in figuring out things for his character.

Level Gold
1 500
2 1800
3 4050
4 7200
5 11,000
6 16,000
7 23,000
8 31,500
9 42,500
10 57,500
11 77,000
12 99,000
13 130,000
14 175,000
15 230,000
16 300,000
17 390,000
18 510,000
19 670,000
20 867,500

[Ellrin]

The thing I love about the winged template is that it's possibly the easiest way in the book to get perfect maneuverability, non-magical flight. Outside of air elementals and things casting fly you can easily outmaneuver anything in the air, and anything on the ground is largely crippled against you.

The main issue here is your skirmish, which requires you be within 30'. Is there any way to increase precision damage range? I mean, flyby attack will negate a lot of those issues, especially with perfect flight--assuming you have a 30' base land speed, start 55' directly above the creature you want to skirmish, fly straight down to 30' above, fire, and then fly back to 55'. But obviously as a ranged damage dealer, the greater your range, the better.

[Curmudgeon]

The Ranged Skirmisher feat (Dragon # 346, page 87) extends the usual 30' range limit for skirmish to 60'. Put it on your list for the build as soon as you've got the prerequisites. To my mind, that satisfies your immediate needs better than taking a +2 level adjustment and being stuck with BAB 0.

When you get enough gp, get yourself an item or a graft for flight capability. If you've got either the Travel or Magic domains you can use a wand of Fly. Or if Mystra is your deity you can take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat after you reach Mystic Ranger 4, and prepare Fly as an arcane spell when you reach Mystic Ranger 6.

[Saito Takuji]

hmm interesting way of dealing with the wealth, but you could potentially mitigate the saves issue, with a cloak of restiance 1k gold for +1, 4k for a +2 as has been said dex bonus will cover the BAB for ranged attacks, also improving AC wis bonus will help with will saves. the less HP seems the most annoying thing to deal with, mabey a wand of bears endurance to help a little bit. so its ultimatley up to the way the GM runs, if its likeley that he may not exploit the lesser HP too much i would say go for it.


depending on how consumables are worked out, i would considder "buying" the manuals of +ability score at various points wich would then at the next level have been retroacivly free heh

[paigeoliver]

depending on how consumables are worked out, i would considder "buying" the manuals of +ability score at various points wich would then at the next level have been retroacivly free heh

Long lasting effects count against your wealth as long as the effect is in place, in the case of tomes that is forever.