Tier of item crafting?

[lunar2]

so, i'm thinking of making a hombrew class that, because of the inspiration (gemcraft), will essentially be blasting (plus a few rider debuffs like slow or daze). so, the question is, if a class gets all the main item creation feats as bonus feats, as well as the ability to ignore spell prereqs when crafting, what minimum tier are we talking about here?

it won't be an artificer thing where it can craft for essentially free, nor will it have any special ability to use the spell completion and spell trigger items it creates.

[Emperor Tippy]

5?

Simply having the ability to craft magical items doesn't do much. At least not unless the DM let's you break WBL.

[rockdeworld]

Artificers can't craft for free, they just get 25% off, a deductible that's payed beforehand, and the ability to scrap items for xp back. That's not what makes them tier 1 though, it's the ability to cast any spell with the only preparation needed being that which it takes to make the item. If your character can't use the items he makes, then what can he do? You mentioned it "will essentially be blasting (plus a few rider debuffs like slow or daze)", does that mean it'll get its own spellcasting? Because its other class abilities are going to determine its tier more than its crafting.

Basically, the ability to craft any item doesn't solve an encounter unless there's someone who can use it.

[lunar2]

when i said crafting for free, i meant on the XP front. an artificer that pays actual XP for crafting is doing it wrong. this class wouldn't get anything like that. i was just concerned about it getting out of hand on the crafting side, since this is really just to support the core concept, which is gemcrafting.

a gem is a temporary object that can be thrown as a grenade-like weapon, put into a tower or trap to shoot repeatedly at a single target, or put into a shrine to cause a massive explosion in either a burst or 4 lines.

base damage would be somewhat better than a warlock, but each type of gem has a secondary effect.

bloodbound gems get stronger (bonus to to attack and damage) the more kills they get.

multiple damage gems get higher crit threat range and multipliers.

poison gems do bleed damage (instead of actual poison, which would be weaker in the long run)

mana gain gems generate mana when they hit, allowing the creation of more/better gems.

slow gems slow opponents they hit

shocking gems daze (or maybe stun) opponents they hit

chain hit gems hit secondary opponents.

armor tearing gems apply a penalty to AC and/or saves when they hit.

i'd say they're all force effects (except possibly shocking, obviously).

so yeah, the main premise of the class would be blasting (hint of action economy/minionmancy, since gems in towers and traps act on their own), but since blasting is relatively weak i thought i'd let it do some item crafting, too.

[CTrees]

That sounds kinda like Pathfinder's Alchemist. Just saying, grenade-like bombs with different effects versus grenade-like gems with different effects? And some miscellaneous other crafting? Heck, maybe just convert the alchemist to 3.5

[lunar2]

when i get around to actually brewing it, i'll look into that. for now, i just wanted to make sure the item crafting wouldn't overshadow it's main thing, which is the gemcrafting.

[Alienist]

Hmmm ... what day of the week is it?

There is a controversy that occasionally flares up around the tier system.
The problem is the definitions. Tier 1 and 2 are where they are because of their ability to break the game with spells. However, an Artificer is also tier 1 because of the ability to make items and then use UMD to use them.

Then some cheeky sod will come along and say "if my Fighter had UMD, would that make him Tier 1 too?"

... and then all hell breaks loose, because comparing a Wizard and a Fighter is apparently the material component for Summon Epic ****storm.

Somehow the ability to spend gold and make an item is enormously much better than the ability to spend gold and buy an item.

Which is curious really, since spending the gold to buy it is more reliable (no chance of failure), doesn't require xp and is enormously much faster than spending the gold to make it...

But then the tier system has a peculiar relationship with time. Yes the wizard can rewrite his or her class features, but are there really that many DMs willing to put the campaign world in pause whilst the Wizard climbs up his own bottom (rope trick) for a day's delay? Ah! But what about divinations? Well I say what about them? The ones I've read are far too vague to tell you what spells you need to prepare.

Perhaps I've been reading the wrong ones? It feels like that sometimes. That the Wizard fans live in some reality distortion field. Like a crossover of dimensions. I know for instance that in their dimension the text of Versatile Spellcaster and Genesis must be radically different from the ones I find in this dimension. Maybe their divination spells are part of the reality distortion field?

Anyway, eventually the debate will become quite shrill, and the Wizard fans will disallow any scenario in which the Fighter has any magic items at all. They will sit in a circle, with their fingers in their ears, chanting: "you can't fly you can't fly you caaaan't flyiiiieeee!"
Fighter: but I have this magic item ...
Wizards: Aaiieeyyeeiieeyyiieee ... you can't fly you can't fly, you can't faaalllliiiiieeee!"

In conclusion, it seems to me that the Artificer really shouldn't be a higher tier than a Bard, to which it is remarkably similar; a mediocre caster, focused on buffing, with UMD.

[Augmental]

*snip*

To be frank, it seems to me like you're trying to rile up one of these ****storms you're talking about. :smallannoyed:

[Alienist]

To be frank, it seems to me like you're trying to rile up one of these ****storms you're talking about. :smallannoyed:

Please state your answer in the form of a question.

Anyway, if I'm wrong, please indicate the advantages that item crafting has over item buying?

I've tried making strawman arguments where access to items is limited, but honestly if you had limited access to items, wouldn't you also be limited in access to components?

I'm not saying there aren't weird edge cases where buying is worse than crafting, (someone can always make a more and more contrived example), just that access to magic-mart essentially trumps item crafting.

[Tvtyrant]

Please state your answer in the form of a question.

Anyway, if I'm wrong, please indicate the advantages that item crafting has over item buying?

I've tried making strawman arguments where access to items is limited, but honestly if you had limited access to items, wouldn't you also be limited in access to components?

I'm not saying there aren't weird edge cases where buying is worse than crafting, (someone can always make a more and more contrived example), just that access to magic-mart essentially trumps item crafting.

Well, you can cut the cost of crafting down to close to 0. A pair of Thought Bottles will let you craft with no XP loss forever, and there are a number of cost reducers that combined make the gold cost insignificant. This also lets you get a hold of magic before your casters can (especially in the case of Artificers.)

[Alienist]

Well, you can cut the cost of crafting down to close to 0. A pair of Thought Bottles will let you craft with no XP loss forever, and there are a number of cost reducers that combined make the gold cost insignificant. This also lets you get a hold of magic before your casters can (especially in the case of Artificers.)

But the biggest cost is (and always has been) simply the time it takes. Even if you can get the gold price of your 91,000 item down to less than a gnat's fart, it still takes you three months to make it.

The time cost is so large at high levels that I think it completely obviates any theoretical 'uptiering' from the item crafting.

[HunterOfJello]

Here's a build that can pull that off without using homebrew.

Human Warmage 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 4

1: Versatile Spellcaster
Human Bonus: Heighten Spell
3: Improved Binding

~

At level 7 you will gain access to the Astaroth vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) which will give you access to every item creation feat whose Caster Level pre-req is less than or equal to your effective binder level. At ECL 7, that would be every item creation feat with CL 5 or lower, which is something like 10 item creation feats.

~

Note1: Human can be replaced with Strongheart Halfling if you so desire. You need enough Int to put ranks in Intimidate and Knowledge (The Planes) very quickly though so that would be a 14 Int minimum for Strongheart Halfling or 12 Int minimum for a Human.

Note2: It has been argued that a Warmage would not need Heighten Spell to qualify for being able to cast 2nd level spells and that only VS is necessary. However, not all DMs will accept this and using the Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell combo is a proven and absolutely RAW way of accomplishing this goal.

[lunar2]

Here's a build that can pull that off without using homebrew.

Human Warmage 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 4

1: Versatile Spellcaster
Human Bonus: Heighten Spell
3: Improved Binding

~

At level 7 you will gain access to the Astaroth vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) which will give you access to every item creation feat whose Caster Level pre-req is less than or equal to your effective binder level. At ECL 7, that would be every item creation feat with CL 5 or lower, which is something like 10 item creation feats.

~

Note1: Human can be replaced with Strongheart Halfling if you so desire. You need enough Int to put ranks in Intimidate and Knowledge (The Planes) very quickly though so that would be a 14 Int minimum for Strongheart Halfling or 12 Int minimum for a Human.

Note2: It has been argued that a Warmage would not need Heighten Spell to qualify for being able to cast 2nd level spells and that only VS is necessary. However, not all DMs will accept this and using the Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell combo is a proven and absolutely RAW way of accomplishing this goal.

or just use precocious apprentice. it's less cheesy, because it actually gives you a second level spell slot.

@tier discussion. crafting is better than buying because you can get exactly the item you need, which you can't do through buying in most campaigns, unless the DM runs a magic mart. in a magic mart game, the artificer is significantly less powerful, true.

however, i was simply asking because i needed something for a gemcrafter to do besides blast, and crafting was a logical choice. but i was concerned that crafting might overshadow his main shtick, and now i know that won't be an issue if he does not also have UMD.