Lord/Lady of the Dead... how did I miss this?

[8wGremlin]

whilst talking about undead leaders I came across this little PRC

Lord/Lady of the Dead (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)

Easy entry with 6th Level Necropolitan

your thoughts?

[Zanthy1]

My thoughts are this:

ITS AWESOME!!

Being a minionomancer with this prc is great! Is this in Libris Mortis?

[Saidoro]

It's kind of neat defensively, but the turn resistance you're granting nearby undead makes them harder for you to control as well. You're really shooting yourself in the foot using this on a minionmancer.

[Zanthy1]

It's kind of neat defensively, but the turn resistance you're granting nearby undead makes them harder for you to control as well. You're really shooting yourself in the foot using this on a minionmancer.

That is assuming that you are controlling them with the turn/rebuking. (does turn resistance work against rebuking?) As a dread necromancer or cleric who uses animate dead and create undead, you would not even make that sort of check, so long as you stay within the allotted HD they would stay under your control.

[Cog]

Also, it's a 3.0 PrC (note the Alchemy skill), which tends to not get a whole lot of discussion regardless of the strength of the class.

[Saidoro]

Create undead and its greater version don't put the undead under your control, you need some other means of directing them and rebuking is one of the more common ways of doing that. You could just use animate dead, but then you'd be stuck with only skeletons and zombies. Yes, turn resistance works against rebuking.

[Khatoblepas]

It's kind of neat defensively, but the turn resistance you're granting nearby undead makes them harder for you to control as well. You're really shooting yourself in the foot using this on a minionmancer.

If you're a minionmancer with this prestige class, take a step back before considering rebuking new friends. Play some music, and keep your distance. You don't want to get too close and ruin your chances.

Rebuke Undead range: 60ft. Bolster Undead Aura range: 30ft. Add lyre of restful soul, and drums of the dead. No sweat.

[Saidoro]

If you're a minionmancer with this prestige class, take a step back before considering rebuking new friends. Play some music, and keep your distance. You don't want to get too close and ruin your chances.

Rebuke Undead range: 60ft. Bolster Undead Aura range: 30ft. Add lyre of restful soul, and drums of the dead. No sweat.

Yeah, great you turn him, order him to come stand next to you and then suddenly lose control of him when your bolstering aura pushes him over your hit dice limit. Sounds great.

[8wGremlin]

Yeah, great you turn him, order him to come stand next to you and then suddenly lose control of him when your bolstering aura pushes him over your hit dice limit. Sounds great.

You don't loose control over something if their turn resistance changes.
you gain control over it at the time of rebuking...

If you lost control and he was standing next to you, then you might have a problem.

[Ellrin]

Unless I'm missing something: you've got undead leadership. Pump your leadership score to get a low level army, and for higher CR minions go the summon undead route and/or diplomance your intelligent undead creations into following you.

[Saidoro]

You don't loose control over something if their turn resistance changes.
you gain control over it at the time of rebuking...

If you lost control and he was standing next to you, then you might have a problem.
Turn resistance makes you count as having more HD for the purpose of turning, rebuking and commanding. Rebuke undead does not let you control undead with more total hit dice than you evel at any time.

Unless I'm missing something: you've got undead leadership. Pump your leadership score to get a low level army, and for higher CR minions go the summon undead route and/or diplomance your intelligent undead creations into following you.
The argument is that it makes you worse at being an undead leader by shutting down one of your possible vectors of control(rebuke undead) without giving anything in return that makes you a substantially better undead leader(there are other ways to get free undead).

[Silva Stormrage]

Saidiro you are pushing the incorrect idea that increasing undead's turn resistance while you have control can push them over your limit.

This isn't true simply due to how bolster undead works. If it works like you said than whenever a cleric used bolster undead on his own minions he would automatically lose control over them. That doesn't happen, thus thats not how it works.

Rebuke undead only checks their turn resistance when you first rebuke them. Since the lord of the dead's bolstering aura only affects allied undead it does NOT make it harder to rebuke undead.

[Khatoblepas]

Yeah, great you turn him, order him to come stand next to you and then suddenly lose control of him when your bolstering aura pushes him over your hit dice limit. Sounds great.

Uh.


When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, add the indicated number to the creature's Hit Dice total. For example, a deathshrieker has 18 Hit Dice and +4 turn resistance. Attempts to turn, rebuke, command, or bolster treat a deathshrieker as though it had 22 Hit Dice, though it is an 18 HD creature for any other purpose.

When you have commanded an undead, you are no longer attempting to rebuke undead. You have already commanded it. It is yours. Turn Resistance only applies on attempts to rebuke, not the subsequent effects of rebuking. Issuing a command to an already commanded undead also does not check turn resistance, as it is not a turn attempt.

As a turned zombie that runs into a bolstering aura does not suddenly become not turned, a rebuked zombie does not become unrebuked if it's turn resistance increases.

Also I'm pretty sure that Deathshrieker will only count 18HD towards your limit, not 22, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

[Spuddles]

Note that Bolstering Aura stacks with your Improved Turn Resistance and that you can take regular Leadership alongside Undead Leadership.

Also note that one method of calculating your undead leadership score is rather busted- ECL + CL + Cha.


It's kind of neat defensively, but the turn resistance you're granting nearby undead makes them harder for you to control as well. You're really shooting yourself in the foot using this on a minionmancer.

Well, they aren't allies until after you command them, and by then it's too late. Plus, the class requires Undead Leadership, which gives you free undead followers.

[Silva Stormrage]

Uh.



When you have commanded an undead, you are no longer attempting to rebuke undead. You have already commanded it. It is yours. Turn Resistance only applies on attempts to rebuke, not the subsequent effects of rebuking. Issuing a command to an already commanded undead also does not check turn resistance, as it is not a turn attempt.

As a turned zombie that runs into a bolstering aura does not suddenly become not turned, a rebuked zombie does not become unrebuked if it's turn resistance increases.

Also I'm pretty sure that Deathshrieker will only count 18HD towards your limit, not 22, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

Correct on all counts except the turn resistance does count towards the limit of commanded undead. The section you quoted mentioned it "When resolving a command undead attempt". Resolving a command attempt includes determining how many HD it takes of your cap.

[Khatoblepas]

Correct on all counts except the turn resistance does count towards the limit of commanded undead. The section you quoted mentioned it "When resolving a command undead attempt". Resolving a command attempt includes determining how many HD it takes of your cap.

Really? I can't see a way to read that that includes turn resistance.


Commanded

A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

The way it's worded here is that Commanded is a state undead are in, and the standard action is for the cleric to issue a command... which does not say it checks turn resistance (nor does it use a rebuke undead attempt, or call itself one.). Nor does the Total Hit Dice mention Turn Resistance, as "having undead under your command" is not "resolving a turn, destroy, rebuke, command attempt", it is merely a state of being. Resolving the turn attempt involves rolling dice that can concievably add turn resistance. Your command limit does not, in fact, ever state "Turn Resistance counts towards the creature's HD when commanding undead".

Backing this up is, as you yourself said: Changing the creature's effective hit dice for turning does not relinquish them from your command. Command Undead only checks their actual hit dice once you've rebuked them. They could have a Turn Resistance of several thousand billion, but if you've already rebuked them, you still command them.

However, I can't find any specific rules that state that Undead affected by turning/rebuking recheck their effective HD once they're already turned/rebuked. If you raise the turn resistance on an undead that is running for it's unlife, will it snap out of it immediately? That doesn't make much sense, as you've already affected it.

I kind of wish there was some kind of actual clarification somewhere in the books.

[8wGremlin]

All About Rebuking


Rebuking is a potentially wonderful, and horribly underused ability that is itself shockingly level dependent. Additions to your Rebuking checks are virtually worthless, as you can only command undead that are half your level in Rebuking in hit dice. Undead have the BAB of a commoner and no Con bonus, so high CR Undead have many more Hit Dice than their CR. Even if you keep your Rebuking up to full level, the creatures you will be able to control will become increasingly outgunned by the monsters you meet in your day-to-day adventuring. And if you allow your Rebuking to fall behind even a tiny bit, you might as well not have the ability at all. The Rebuking handed out by such classes as the Blackguard is useful only for powering Divine Feats – it should not be confused with an actual manner to control or bolster the Undead.

Rebuking can of course be increased, and rather easily. The key is that the ability itself is “as Turn Undead” with no provision on level bonuses. So any bonus to Turn Undead also bolsters Rebuking by default, but the reverse is not also true. So an Amulet of Turn Undead increases your effective level of Rebuking, but a Mark of Apostasy won’t aid Turning in any way. Remember that all bonuses to Turning (Rebuking) level are unnamed, so they all stack. You can even have multiple copies of the same item and they’ll still stack. For those of you keeping track at home that means that a character with an Amulet of Turning (+4), a Scepter of the Netherworld (+3), and a Sacred Shield (+2) can command 5 Hit Die Undead even as a first level character.

The creatures you can command become relatively weaker when compared to you unless you pull Turning bonus shenanigans, but they also become easier to command in the first place. By the time you can command a 5 Hit Die undead monster it is actually impossible for you to fail to do so. The turning check itself just isn’t that meaningful. Your real enemy of course is Turn Resistance, as every +1 Turn Resistance means you need to have 2 more whole levels worth of Rebuking to command the creature. Surprisingly, many abilities such as “Necromantic Presence” actually make it harder for you to push your undead minions around. Hilariously, when you take over an undead monster when you have this ability, it gains +4 Turn Resistance: almost assuredly making it ineligible for you to control it (this always happens, as Rebuking only has a range of 60 feet, the same as the range of the feat).

Rebuking isn’t something you use on a day-to-day basis. Undead, once controlled, follow you around until you get tired of them or they are destroyed. So if you can spend your Rebuking attempts on things, that would be good.


Rebuking by level and Source:

1 or less: Nothing!
2 Human Skeleton (MM), Ghostly Visage (FF)
4 Wolf Skeleton (MM), Kobold Zombie (MM)
6 Shadow (MM), Murk (LM), Raiment (LM), Tomb Mote (LM)
8 Ghoul (MM), Wight (MM), Troglodyte Zombie (MM), Slay Mate! (LM), Bone Rat Swarm (LM), Desiccator (LM), Skin Kite (LM), Vasuthant (MM3)
10 Deathlock (LM)
12 Allip (MM), Ghast (MM), Vampire Spawn(MM), Skulking Cyst (LM), Spectral Lyrist (LM), Voidwraith (LM), Spawn of Kyuss (MM2)
14 Wraith (MM), Brain in a Jar (LM)
16 Mummy (MM), Corpse Rat Swarm (LM), Entomber (LM), Plagueblight (LM), Bhut (FF)
18 Bodak (MM), Spectre (MM), Atropal Scion (LM), Crypt Chanter (LM), Quell (LM), Skirr (LM)
20 Bleakborn (LM), Blood Amniote (LM), Bloodmote Cloud (LM), Cinderspawn (LM), Crypt Thing (FF)
22 Bonedrinker (MM3)
24 Devourer (MM), Boneclaw (MM3), Ephemeral Swarm (MM3), Grimweird (MM3), Salt Mummy (MM3), Quth-Maren (FF)
26 Wheep (LM), Crimson Death (MM2)
28 Mohrg (MM), Forsaken Shell (LM)
30 Bone Naga (MM2)
32 Dread Wraith (MM), Visage (LM), Dust Wight (MM3), Plague Spewer (MM3), Abyssal Ghoul (FF), Hullathoin (FF)
34 Nightwing (MM), Boneyard (LM), Dream Vestige (LM), Ulgurstasta (FF)
36 Blaspheme (LM), Slaughterwight (LM), Blood Fiend (FF)
38 Entropic Reaper (LM)
40 Hulking Corpse (LM), Drowned (MM3)
42 Nightwalker (MM), Charnel Hound (MM3)
44 Deathshrieker (MM3)
50 Nightcrawler (MM), Jahi (MM2)
52 Angel of Decay (LM), Banshee (MM2)
54 Effigy (MM2), Horrific Vasuthant (MM3)
56 Crawling Head (FF)
60 Corpse Gatherer (MM2), Deathbringer (MM2)
62 Grave Crawler (MM2), Ragewind (MM2)
64 Famine Spirit (MM2), Necronaut (MM3)

Templated undead (with the exception of the very earliest skeletons and zombies), such as the Ghost and Vampire, are not listed because they don't exist at a specific standard hit die. Generic undead, such as the Vampire Spawn, are shown at the level you can command them. You can generally use Rebuking to smacks them down very much earlier if that's important to you. Undead Monsters which themselves have Rebuking (and can thus be used in convoluted schemes involving handing scepters of the netherworld around) have been underlined.

Rebuking Doesn't Work how you Think it works
You have a "level for the purposes of Rebuking". If you never take any level other than Cleric or Dread Necromancer or prestige class that adds to Rebuking, that level with equal your class level. If you multiclass, that number will be lower. And if you take feats like Improved Turning or magic items like an Amulet of Turning, you can have a level for these purposes that is higher than your Class level.

Undead have a "hit dice for the purposes of Rebuking" as well. This is normally equal to their Hit Dice plus their Turn Resistance. While Positive Energy Levels exist that will reduce their effective Hit Dice, they are so broken when used on living creatures (which is almost every player character) that your DM isn't going to use them. Ever.

If your level for the purposes of Rebuking is twice the hit dice for the purpose of Rebuking of the undead, and the undead is affected by your Rebuking attempt, and you have space for it under your control, you control it.

Your turning check does not affect your level for the purposes of Rebuking. It affects the maximum hit dice of the undead that can be affected. If you completely bungle your Rebuking check, you can only affect a creature 4 hit dice less than your level. Of course, this means that if you are Rebuking at the 8th level, even getting a negative check result won't stop you from commanding the most powerful creature you could command.

Turning Check: The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.


The reason why getting a big roll on you Turning Check doesn't let you command a more powerful undead creature is that it doesn't add to your level for the purposes of Rebuking. It adds to the maximum Hit Dice of an undead creature you can affect relative to your level. If something does actually add to your level for the purpose of Rebuking, then of course it would increase the Hit Dice of what you could command.

Stacking Rebuking
If you have more than one class that provides Rebuking, all those levels stack together. Normally that’s not very hard to figure out. If you have 2 levels of Dread Necromancer and 2 levels of Cleric, your Rebuking level is 4 (although you have a terrible character and we in no way condone this sort of unmin/maxed build). It gets more complicated if you get access to weirder classes like Wearer of Purple from Faiths and Pantheons. That class specifically doesn’t ad to Rebuking, but it gives you a domain, and if the domain it gives happens to be Scalykind it gives its own special Rebukin, which then makes it a Rebuking class – you can now have an argument with your DM over whether or not the class adds to Rebuking. CustServ has come down on both sides of that issue.