Frienzied beserker vs Runescared Berserker

[dantiesilva]

I am DMing a game right now with a party that is mostly new to D&D and so I am limiting them to only a few books and came into a problem for the groups Barbarian. There are a lot of classes that are powerful for it, and many of them go in different directions. So after alot of reading I narrowed it down to the two that this thread is named after.

My problem is though that I am not sure if Rage and frenzy would stack, thus a level 10 Frenzied berserk would gain +16 to Str and Con. Now I have no problem with that happening, after all the character in question already has Reckless rage at level one making her deal around 2d6+16 damage a turn.

Where as Rune scared Berserk though less versitile and requires a bit more work seems like the more powerful build in the long run. What I wanted to know was what the playground thought I should suggest to the player to become as it will have an impact on the game and the characters backstory and the player does not know which they want to pick.

Thank you in advance for all your help on this matter.

[jywu98]

A party needs to take preparations if their barb is gonna go frenzied berserker, as it might end up attacking the party. Rage and frenzy stack as they are from different sources.

By the way, runescarred is more powerful than you think. It is a tier higher than frenzied.

[amdskitzo]

I am DMing a game right now with a party that is mostly new to D&D and so I am limiting them to only a few books and came into a problem for the groups Barbarian. There are a lot of classes that are powerful for it, and many of them go in different directions. So after alot of reading I narrowed it down to the two that this thread is named after.

My problem is though that I am not sure if Rage and frenzy would stack, thus a level 10 Frenzied berserk would gain +16 to Str and Con. Now I have no problem with that happening, after all the character in question already has Reckless rage at level one making her deal around 2d6+16 damage a turn.

Where as Rune scared Berserk though less versitile and requires a bit more work seems like the more powerful build in the long run. What I wanted to know was what the playground thought I should suggest to the player to become as it will have an impact on the game and the characters backstory and the player does not know which they want to pick.

Thank you in advance for all your help on this matter.

As far as I have known, Rage and Frenzy do stack because they are both unnamed bonuses from two separate abilities. Same thing could be said for the Kensai's power surge(barring alignment restrictions) and the Bear Warrior's transformation/rage.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Rage and Frenzy stack. I think the only exception to the giant pile is stacking is the Berserk. His rage and shifting do not stack because it says so in the description.

[gallagher]

RSB gets: more rages, stronger rages, DR and NA, and oh yeah spells. Yeah sure they wont give him something like a fireball, but you get divine power and righteous might, freedom of movement, polymorph, and the creme de la creme for spells for every melee character, antimagic field.

FB gets: frenzy, which makes them hit things stronger and attack your allies, and the ability to not be able to die while frenzying (unless by a disintigrate spell or something).

Lets just say that if it came down to it, a lvl 20 RSB v a lvl 20 FB, my money would go on the RSB and I probably would make little money, cuz everyone else is also going to bet on the thing that can polymorph

[ZamielVanWeber]

Don't forget that FB gets power attack boosts. Give them a mintaur greathammer and I have seen them crit for over 600.

[jywu98]

RSB gets: more rages, stronger rages, DR and NA, and oh yeah spells. Yeah sure they wont give him something like a fireball, but you get divine power and righteous might, freedom of movement, polymorph, and the creme de la creme for spells for every melee character, antimagic field.

FB gets: frenzy, which makes them hit things stronger and attack your allies, and the ability to not be able to die while frenzying (unless by a disintigrate spell or something).

Lets just say that if it came down to it, a lvl 20 RSB v a lvl 20 FB, my money would go on the RSB and I probably would make little money, cuz everyone else is also going to bet on the thing that can polymorph

The lvl 20 FB will be hard to kill due to deathless frenzy though.

[Slipperychicken]

The lvl 20 FB will be hard to kill due to deathless frenzy though.

He will, however, be hilariously easy to immobilize. Auto-fail Balance checks? Here, have some marbles! Or some Grease!


Marbles: About two dozen assorted glass, flawed
rock crystal, or clay spheres in a leather pouch. They
are commonly used as toys but are also useful for
checking the slope in a dungeon corridor (just set
one down and see which way it rolls), or as a nondamaging
alternative to caltrops. One bag covers an
area 5 feet square. Creatures moving through or fighting
in the area must make Balance checks (DC 15). A
creature that fails is unable to move for 1 round (or
may fall; see the Balance skill description in the
Player’s Handbook).

A 2sp trinket just brought low the mighty FB.

[Garagos]

I'm AFB right now so forgive me, but how do marbles automatically stop a FB? Balance can be used while Raging, can it not be used while in a Frenzy?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While in frenzy, the berserker fails all dexterity based skill checks, such as balance.

[LTwerewolf]

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate),
the Concentration skill, or any abilities that
require patience or concentration, nor can she cast
spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read
scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat
Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats.
She can use her special ability to inspire frenzy (see
below) normally..

that's what they're talking about.

[Garagos]

Ouch bummer for them. Thanks for the clarity folks! Yet another reason that I don't care for that prestige class.

[Man on Fire]

OP - Both classes require different things from the player. Runnescarred requires some strategic sense in choosing his spells, which I think, if Barbarian's player wanted, looing purerly from mechanic perspective, he woudl play Duskblade or ToB class.

FB is much simpler and can make pretty ubecharger, but you need to discuss this with all players and let them take preparations. I might point out some good ways to avoid other players getting slaughtered.

1) let somebody take leadership and had cohort of people casting calm emotions and other things. You might fluff it however you want, from little children calming Berserker to going full Cu Chulain route and have wagon of naked women to make him think about something else than killing.

2)Discuss with Barbarian and party wizard to take one-level dips in Thayan Knight and Red Wizard of Thay respectively. From now on whenever FB attacks his party, wizards cast any enchancment to make him stop and it works 100% of times, because FB simply has no chocie but to fail his will save.

3) Bag od Tricks. Let one of the players have bag of tricks. Once FB runs out of enemies, that player throws small animals at him each turn. Because they are closer than PCs, he needs to attack them and waste a turn.

But honestly, if your players aren't interested in mechanics and tctics and preparations, neither class is good for barbarian. If he wants to just puch things, let him become permamently larger and take War Hulk levels or just go into Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior/Warshaper combo.

[vhfforever]

Form simply flavor perspective...FB is a psychopathic murderer that will come unhinged at the very least of provocations, and RSB is a tac-ops soldier that can dig into an (albeit small) bag of tricks to really elevate himself when it all hits the fan. The FB just..hits it, and then the next it, and then the next it, and then...and so on, and hopefully the group is prepared to stop it when necessary.

And also, you need a Bard to spread lies about the FB, so not every enemy knows they can sneak attack or snipe him and have the entire group of PC's potentially slaughtered by one poor will save and the FB smashing someone because of his uncontrollable frenzy. Not saying it happened in a group I was playing in...but...it did.

[jywu98]

He will, however, be hilariously easy to immobilize. Auto-fail Balance checks? Here, have some marbles! Or some Grease!



A 2sp trinket just brought low the mighty FB.

Oh yeah, that was one of the ways the party could control the FB during frenzy.

[Man on Fire]

Form simply flavor perspective...FB is a psychopathic murderer that will come unhinged at the very least of provocations, and RSB is a tac-ops soldier that can dig into an (albeit small) bag of tricks to really elevate himself when it all hits the fan. The FB just..hits it, and then the next it, and then the next it, and then...and so on, and hopefully the group is prepared to stop it when necessary.

And also, you need a Bard to spread lies about the FB, so not every enemy knows they can sneak attack or snipe him and have the entire group of PC's potentially slaughtered by one poor will save and the FB smashing someone because of his uncontrollable frenzy. Not saying it happened in a group I was playing in...but...it did.

Nope, Frenzied Berserker is more like a tank or a cannon - extremely destructive, but needs somebody to point it at the target.

And it's hardly class' fault that DM was a jerk.

[MustacheFart]

Form simply flavor perspective...FB is a psychopathic murderer that will come unhinged at the very least of provocations, and RSB is a tac-ops soldier that can dig into an (albeit small) bag of tricks to really elevate himself when it all hits the fan. The FB just..hits it, and then the next it, and then the next it, and then...and so on, and hopefully the group is prepared to stop it when necessary.

And also, you need a Bard to spread lies about the FB, so not every enemy knows they can sneak attack or snipe him and have the entire group of PC's potentially slaughtered by one poor will save and the FB smashing someone because of his uncontrollable frenzy. Not saying it happened in a group I was playing in...but...it did.

You've left out the part about the RSB that requires them to dig into their flesh carving symbols into their body. I don't think that makes you completely untwisted ;)

As for the will save issue with FB if ToB is allowed theirs a stance or something with I believe "heart" in the name that makes him capable of auto-succeeding on it. It's been years since I've played one but I never hand any issue with attacking my party.

That said, I would prefer to run in with AMF and beat **** down so I say RSB. I'd working Warshaper as well as RSB is late entry and WS is only 5 levels (dip for 4 if you want) that add some very nice goodies.

[Slipperychicken]

As for the will save issue with FB if ToB is allowed theirs a stance or something with I believe "heart" in the name that makes him capable of auto-succeeding on it. It's been years since I've played one but I never hand any issue with attacking my party.


I don't think Iron Heart Surge would work. The FB must "attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability", and using IHS to end the Frenzy contradicts that because it spends actions not attacking, and actually taking down the Frenzy's combat buff.

[Immabozo]

My current character is a dwarven half ogre half minotaur (Dragon mag templates) Whirling spirit lion totem Barbarian 5/Dungeoncrasher fighter 2/bear warrior 1/war hulk 1 (going all war hulk from here on till level 10 war hulk) with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, Endurance? (prereq for Steadfast Determination), Steadfast Determination (con instead of wis on will saves), Cleave and soon getting Knockback.

When I rage (using whirling Barbie ACF), I get +8 str, +2 dex, +4 con, +2 Nat Armor, +2 doge bonus to AC, +2 reflex saves, one more attack at full, but all attacks at -2. The downside to whirling barbie is the no +2 to will saves, but Steadfast determination turns the +4 con into a +2 will saves. YAY ME!!!

Eventually, at 19, will have a 42 str, 50 when raging, hit everything in reach, with a 10 foot reach, 3 attacks per round with a dwarven war axe scaled up to be a 2 handed axe for a large creature, with Giant Blooded racial feature as a half ogre, (so it's a size larger than huge, colossal?) for +28 to hit 4D8 +30, when raging. A full Imp power attack at +8 BAB, with shock trooper taking it out of AC instead of to hit, another +16 for an average damage of 62 damage per hit, hitting everyone in range, three times per round, getting a +16 on my bullrush attempts on everyone, but only after the last hit! for top of a 50 str, guiding them into each other (with shock trooper) for another 6D6 +40 (from dungeon crasher fighter) per collision, to each, with a free trip attempt on all in the collision with each other.

My DM anticipates going to level 40, in which case, bear warrior can get my str when raging to +20 (62 str when raging!), with higher con giving higher will, high nat armor, and a ton of other bonuses. Plus, a dip in war shaper will give me immunity to crits, 5 feet longer reach, +4 str, +4 con. On top of all that, my party is going to get a wand to increase my (and my axe's!) size category by 2 sizes! Another 20 feet reach, str, weapon size increase to 12D8! I think anyway, there is no graph for damage above colossal, but there is one damage etry for going up from 8D8 one more, to 12D8.

it is an incredibly simple build to play. So, I agree, war hulk is a much funner and more effective way to go. But if your player takes frenzied berserker, make sure he takes Steadfast Determination from PHB II.

[lord_khaine]

He will, however, be hilariously easy to immobilize. Auto-fail Balance checks? Here, have some marbles! Or some Grease!



A 2sp trinket just brought low the mighty FB.

I dont think this will work unless the bag either has a part about being usable as a ranget weapon, or the FB is stupid enough to walk though them, instead of around them.

Anyway, to the OP, then i would defently advice against the FB as it is a stupid class, since it gives the player a huge increase in killing power, while making the rest of the party pay the price by suddenly risking getting cleaved down by their own party members.

[vhfforever]

You've left out the part about the RSB that requires them to dig into their flesh carving symbols into their body. I don't think that makes you completely untwisted ;)

Well, I never said untwisted...just not uncontrollably psychopathic.

[LTwerewolf]

Contingent spell is an amazing way to fix a FB. That way you don't even need a turn in order to get the FB to not demolish your party.

[dantiesilva]

Thank you everyone for your fed back on both PrCs. I shall be going with the Runescared Beserker because in the end that which can cast a spell without killing his teammates is more useful. Though something I should have stated though was that I was only allowing them access to certain things as the group as a whole is new to D&D besides the party wizard who normally plays a druid. Again thank you everyone for your help.

[MustacheFart]

I don't think Iron Heart Surge would work. The FB must "attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability", and using IHS to end the Frenzy contradicts that because it spends actions not attacking, and actually taking down the Frenzy's combat buff.

Sure it will. Iron Heart Surge states:


By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

I'd consider your frenzy a debilitating state given the circumstances. Also if you don't consider using it to be attacking to the best of her ability then why even make the will save? You might as well auto-fail it because succeeding on it and leaving frenzy isn't fighting to the best of her ability. It states you must attack "those she perceives". Iron Heart Surge is just aiding you in that perception.

[Greenish]

The argument goes that if you're spending a standard action just standing there and using IHS, you're not attacking to the best of your ability.

[Pickford]

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate),
the Concentration skill, or any abilities that
require patience or concentration, nor can she cast
spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read
scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat
Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats.
She can use her special ability to inspire frenzy (see
below) normally..

that's what they're talking about.

I think that just means you need more leap attack (CA)

edit: And you might consider iron will + Steadfast Determination (con bonus to will saves), also the will bonuses from frenzy/rage help to break out of frenzy.

[LTwerewolf]

I think that just means you need more leap attack (CA)

That's the usual solution. If the target is still upright after your attack something has gone very wrong.

[Man on Fire]

The argument goes that if you're spending a standard action just standing there and using IHS, you're not attacking to the best of your ability.

Unless FB is convinced that the only way to attack his allies is to do it outside the Frenzy. Therefore you could argue if he thinks he needs to go out of the Frenzy to kill them, he could use IHS. This is pretty much a thing to discuss on DM to DM basis.

Also, would merciful weapon work? Because idescribtion doesn't say you actually must kill your targets.

[lord_khaine]

Unless FB is convinced that the only way to attack his allies is to do it outside the Frenzy. Therefore you could argue if he thinks he needs to go out of the Frenzy to kill them, he could use IHS. This is pretty much a thing to discuss on DM to DM basis.

And that wont work unless he also ends his Frenzy before trying to to kill regular opponents.

[Slipperychicken]

Unless FB is convinced that the only way to attack his allies is to do it outside the Frenzy. Therefore you could argue if he thinks he needs to go out of the Frenzy to kill them, he could use IHS. This is pretty much a thing to discuss on DM to DM basis.

Also, would merciful weapon work? Because idescribtion doesn't say you actually must kill your targets.

If your idea of "attack to the best of your ability" involves blowing an action to dismiss your +6 Str and Deathless Frenzy... it's a wonder you made it to 6th level to enter the class at all.

Though I kind-of see it if the FB decides to end the Frenzy to avoid succumbing to things like Marbles which his party has and which totally gimp Frenzied characters. It's still a fuzzy ruling.

[Man on Fire]

And that wont work unless he also ends his Frenzy before trying to to kill regular opponents.

No, because he belives he will kill them better in frenzy. But if he thinks one or more other party members can effortlessy defeat Frenzied character and attacks from one won't work - don't have to be true, but if he belives it, I would allow it.

[RFLS]

No, because he belives he will kill them better in frenzy. But if he thinks one or more other party members can effortlessy defeat Frenzied character and attacks from one won't work - don't have to be true, but if he belives it, I would allow it.

I don't think Frenzied characters are really known for their tactical decision making.... DM's call, I guess, but I feel like there's a very clear RAI call to be made.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think Frenzied characters are really known for their tactical decision making.... DM's call, I guess, but I feel like there's a very clear RAI call to be made.

You could also argue that initiating IHS before attacking "requires patience or concentration", disallowing Frenzied characters from doing it.

[RFLS]

You could also argue that initiating IHS before attacking "requires patience or concentration", disallowing Frenzied characters from doing it.

Exactly. That's not even straying into RAI, that's RAW right there.

[Pickford]

If your idea of "attack to the best of your ability" involves blowing an action to dismiss your +6 Str and Deathless Frenzy... it's a wonder you made it to 6th level to enter the class at all.

Though I kind-of see it if the FB decides to end the Frenzy to avoid succumbing to things like Marbles which his party has and which totally gimp Frenzied characters. It's still a fuzzy ruling.

It's actually a free action each round. So you'd still be trying to kill anything and everything near you.

[Slipperychicken]

It's actually a free action each round. So you'd still be trying to kill anything and everything near you.

I do think it's RAI for the 1/round Will save to snap out of the Frenzy. I was referring to activating Iron Heart Surge as a Standard Action to end it.

EDIT: The RAW argument for disallowing the free actions to end the Frenzy is: "I must attack to the best of my ability, and this Frenzy is increasing my ability to attack by increasing my Strength and other statistics, and allowing me to benefit from Deathless Frenzy. Ending this frenzy would thus decrease my ability to attack, and Frenzy disallows that."

EDIT 2: Arguably, ending the Frenzy may improve the FB's ability to attack, if he is knowingly going to face the things which gimp Frenzied characters, like marbles, or if the Frenzy is otherwise perceived as hindering his combat ability (not being able to make appropriate Spellcraft or Tumble checks can be crippling, for example). Then it would be indisputably legal to attempt to end it.

[LTwerewolf]

It's actually a free action each round. So you'd still be trying to kill anything and everything near you.

Yes, it's a free action, that effectively makes you weaker. Goes against the rules right there.

[Pickford]

Yes, it's a free action, that effectively makes you weaker. Goes against the rules right there.

Uhm...that's not RAI, that's the specific: If you want to end frenzy before the max number of rounds clause.

Now, if you want to roleplay that your FB refuses to consider the perfectly valid game mechanic that is RAW, that's roleplay, and I'm sure your fellow party members will accept it before killing you. :smallamused:

edit: forgot a comma