[PF] Questions about Bladebound Magus

[Elricaltovilla]

I love the Magus as a class. I think its very well done and definitely fun to play, but I don't really understand what makes the Bladebound archetype worth playing. So looking for some clarity on that point, I have a few questions:

1) Can the Black Blade be enchanted in addition to its naturally progressing enhancement bonus?

2) IF the Black Blade can be enchanted, does doing so cause its enhancement bonus progression to stop earlier? Like if you put Swift and Keen on it (for +2) does the enhancement bonus stop at +3?

3) Does the enhancement offered by the Magus's Arcane Pool stack with the Black Blade's enhancement bonus?

4) Is there a maximum number of Arcane Pool Points that can be transferred to the Magus/Black Blade as a result of Life Drinker?

5) Are there any other important/notable features of the Black Blade that are worth mentioning?

-Thanks!

[NightbringerGGZ]

1) There is no ruling that specifically prohibits it. The black blade gains enhancement bonuses as you level up though, so paying for additional bonuses can get to be inordinately expensive. Generally you should just spend Arcane Points to apply the enchantments you'd like to add.

2) I would say no. You would wind up with a +5 Keen, Swift Black Blade. This is why most GMs rule that you can't enchant it, as your Arcane Pool abilities could easily leave you with a +15 weapon if you were to add additional enchantments.

3) Yes, but to a max bonus of +5. Other enchantments (such has keen, shocking burst, ect) can be added on top of that. That means at level 3 you could fight wit a +2 Weapon or a +1 Keen Weapon.

4) You could refill your Arcane Pool up to your max. After that you'd have to spend Arcane Points before you can siphon any more.

5) Black Blade Strike is an untyped damage bonus. That means it stacks with Arcane Strike as well as any Enhancement bonuses. Since it is a free action to use you can and usually should use it when you enhance your blade. On subsequent rounds use Arcane Strike.

Your Black Blade is an intelligent item with its own personality and goals. Generally it will be played by your DM, which can wind up being a huge negative with certain types of GM.

This archetype works really well with Kensai. Kensai boosts your melee damage up to fighter levels at the cost of reduced spell casting. As a Magus your bread and butter spells are going to be 1st and 2nd level however, so you can circumvent this problem with Pearls of Power.

A pouch of 5 Level 1 Pearls of Power and 5 Level 2 Pearls of Power only costs 25,000 gp. That lets you cast 5 extra spells of those spell levels. Prepare Shocking Grasp and Intensified Shocking Grasp once each and uses those Pearls of Power for extra bursts of damage!

[Arkwright]

1) No. Firstly because it has an irregular ego progression and secondly because it eventually gets itself to +5 and if you already slapped on a +1 then it'd be +6 which is impossible. You might be able to get away with the flat-gp-cost ones, though. Ask your GM

2) Again, adding pluses yourself is against the rules.

3) Definitely. You can even spend both pluses to add abilities through Arcane Pool.

4) Well your Black Blade has a very finite number of arcane pool points so that limits how much it can give you; but there is no rule saying 'only 5 points per day'

5) You get a magic weapon which scales with your level for free. Boo-yah! Add in the Kensai archetype and you'll need to spend zero cash on weapons and armor. That can mean alot.

I personally dislike Kensai as you lose Spell Recall (which is amazing) and spell progression, and the abilities- while enticing- really are more suited to a fighter than a 3/4 bab gish.

Suggestion- look into the Frostbite spell.

[stack]

Yeah, the only archetype that gets something worth the trade for spell recall is the hexcrafter. Also, don't forget the magic lineage trait to go along with your shocking grasp. Add intensified for free. Late game (15+) get spell perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) to add more free metamagic to it (quicken, maximize, or dazing would be fun). Maybe spell perfection for vampiric touch as well.

[Elricaltovilla]

1) There is no ruling that specifically prohibits it. The black blade gains enhancement bonuses as you level up though, so paying for additional bonuses can get to be inordinately expensive. Generally you should just spend Arcane Points to apply the enchantments you'd like to add.

1) No. Firstly because it has an irregular ego progression and secondly because it eventually gets itself to +5 and if you already slapped on a +1 then it'd be +6 which is impossible. You might be able to get away with the flat-gp-cost ones, though. Ask your GM

So... two completely opposite answers to question 1. Do either of you have any sources you can quote to support you, or someone else willing to weigh in one way or the other?

Also, why would an irregular Ego progression affect my ability or inability to enchant it like any other weapon?


2) I would say no. You would wind up with a +5 Keen, Swift Black Blade. This is why most GMs rule that you can't enchant it, as your Arcane Pool abilities could easily leave you with a +15 weapon if you were to add additional enchantments.

2) Again, adding pluses yourself is against the rules.

Question 2, also completely opposite answers. Although since it really is just Question 1a) I shouldn't be surprised...


3) Yes, but to a max bonus of +5. Other enchantments (such has keen, shocking burst, ect) can be added on top of that. That means at level 3 you could fight wit a +2 Weapon or a +1 Keen Weapon.

3) Definitely. You can even spend both pluses to add abilities through Arcane Pool.

If I can't enchant the blade because it enhances itself, then why am I able to add enchantments from my arcane pool? Once the blade hits +5 (at 17th level, i think) I shouldn't be able to improve it at all. I can't do that with a regular weapon.

And if I can enhance it with my arcane pool, how is that any different from putting an enchantment on it?


4) You could refill your Arcane Pool up to your max. After that you'd have to spend Arcane Points before you can siphon any more.

4) Well your Black Blade has a very finite number of arcane pool points so that limits how much it can give you; but there is no rule saying 'only 5 points per day'

What is the max? I'm assuming its whatever the number I start with at the beginning of the day when I prepare my spells.

@Arkwright: I think you're confusing Life Drinker with Transfer Arcana. Life Drinker lets me either restore 2 points to my Black Blade's Arcane Pool, 1 point to mine and my blade's or get temporary HP equal to my black blade's Ego whenever I kill an opponent.


5) Black Blade Strike is an untyped damage bonus. That means it stacks with Arcane Strike as well as any Enhancement bonuses. Since it is a free action to use you can and usually should use it when you enhance your blade. On subsequent rounds use Arcane Strike.

5) You get a magic weapon which scales with your level for free. Boo-yah! Add in the Kensai archetype and you'll need to spend zero cash on weapons and armor. That can mean alot.

Zero cash on weapons and armor sounds nice, but I like being able to add actual enchantments to my weapon.

And black blade strike lasts for 1 minute. Which sounds sweet to me. :smallamused:


Suggestion- look into the Frostbite spell.

What's particularly useful about the Frostbite Spell? It's low level damage and a fatigue that can't be upgraded to exhausted. The 1 round/level thing is nice, but can I stack that touch attack with a shocking grasp on the turn after I cast it?

[Addi]

Originally Posted by Arkwright
Suggestion- look into the Frostbite spell.
What's particularly useful about the Frostbite Spell?

I think "Frigid Touch" is what he meant. Free staggered condition for one round - extended to one minute on a critical hit.

Some thoughts on No. 5)
My opinion on the blackblade is that it's really worth it:
- You can speak to it if your party members aren't listening. (You can do this with a normal sword, too - it's a little weird though.)
- It is immune to damage as long as it has Pool Points.
- You can convert all your meelee damage into energy damage.
- It can "aid another" you with your Knowledge (arcana) check.
- It grants you alertness
- It (debatable) functions a little in Antimagic Fields (It's a creature and the Enhancement bonuses are not stated as magical)

[Starbuck_II]

I love the Magus as a class. I think its very well done and definitely fun to play, but I don't really understand what makes the Bladebound archetype worth playing. So looking for some clarity on that point, I have a few questions:

1) Can the Black Blade be enchanted in addition to its naturally progressing enhancement bonus?

2) IF the Black Blade can be enchanted, does doing so cause its enhancement bonus progression to stop earlier? Like if you put Swift and Keen on it (for +2) does the enhancement bonus stop at +3?

3) Does the enhancement offered by the Magus's Arcane Pool stack with the Black Blade's enhancement bonus?

4) Is there a maximum number of Arcane Pool Points that can be transferred to the Magus/Black Blade as a result of Life Drinker?

5) Are there any other important/notable features of the Black Blade that are worth mentioning?

-Thanks!

A Bladebound Gunmagus (take a Battleaxe gun as it is slashing) has a weapon immune to misfires.

[NightbringerGGZ]

@Elricaltovilla

More on Question 1

I've been doing some research for a Bladebound Magus I plan on playing in the next couple of months. I haven't found any official rulings on enchanting the sword, but there has been a fair amount of discussion.

There are two reasons why you might not be able to enchant a Black Blade. First off, a Black Blade has a non-standard ego progression with no rules specified as to how to handle the effects of adding enchantments. This is a problem GMs would have to house rule a fix for if enchantments were added. Second, Black Blades gain basic +1 Enchants as you level up. This could cause conflicts if you were to enchant your weapon to +2 at level 4, as eventually you would have a +6 weapon (rules say you can't have more than a +5).

My reading of the rules leads me to conclude that you can't enchant the item to boost the enhancement bonus. I would allow another type of enchantment, such as Keen, but would warn you that this would be really really expensive if you don't add it fairly early on. I also don't think it's needed, since you can further enhance your weapon with your Arcane Pool.

More on Question 2

So if you add another +1 to the weapon, then yes you would stop the enhancement bonuses earlier, those cap at +5. Adding Keen would not stop the cap at an earlier point, your total enhancements can be up to an effective +10. Thus a +5 Keen sword is rules legal but a +6 sword is not.

More on Question 3

The base weapon enhancement ability you use Arcane Points on (it really needs a name) specifically states: "These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5"

At level 3 you have a +1 Black Blade and can spend an Arcane Point to bump it up to a +2. At level 17 you have a +5 Black Blade and cannot boost it further by spending Arcane Points, though other weapon properties are ok.

More on Question 4

You are correct, the max is the number you start with at the beginning of the day. That's 1/3 your magus level (min 1) + Int Mod for your character and 1 + Int Mod for the sword.

More on Question 5

Both the Black Blade Strike and the AP Enhancement Boost last for 1 minute. The standard boost can be increased to 1 min / level with an Arcana. Since you really only need these bonuses in combat, the only "cost" to you is a Swift Action at the very start of combat.

If you want to enchant your weapon the normal way, you need to consider the costs. At level 3 your sword is already +1, adding another effect means you pay the cost of going from +1 to +2 (or higher). That's a cost of 6,000 GP. Your standard wealth by level is only 3,000 GP at that point. You MIGHT be able to afford the cost at level 4, since the swbl at that stage is 6k, but at the cost of all your monetary resources. This problem just gets worse as you level up. At level 5 you'd be making the leap from a +2 to a +3 or a cost of 10,000 gold.

Frostbite is nice precisely b/c it gives you touch attacks for rounds / level. You can Spellstrike this touch attack on each round that the spell lasts, giving you a free attack at max BAB. Sure the individual damage from the spell is low, but you also get the extra weapon damage. The fatigue effect is basically just a nice little extra at that point. It also does non-lethal damage, which is sometimes nice.

Shocking Grasp is good for large bursts of damage. It's the spell you use if you think you can take out a target in one or two rounds. If you're facing something that can shrug off electricity or is designed to absorb large amounts of damage, a spell like Frostbite is a nice alternative. You may also want to look at Chill Touch and Elemental Touch.

[Arkwright]

3) While you can add pluses with Arcane Pool you are still limited to the +5 bonus. Once your Arcane Pool bonus reaches +3 and your blade reaches +3 then when you activate the pool you have to spend at least one of the pluses on an ability- Flaming, Keen, etc

4) Ahh. There is no limit to how many pool points you are allowed to transfer; just limited by your sword's base pool and how many kills you get with it. Additionally, I think it's possible you can make your sword out of a special material; one of them absorbs arcane points upon a crit/kill.

5) Not being able to add your desired enhancements to the weapon can be irritating; that Agile enchantment is very enticing for a dexterity magus. But it's the rules for going Bladebound, and you still get to apply a bevy of nice enchantments via arcane pool. And Black Blade Strike is nice, but your weapon needs at least one point in its pool to remain being unbreakable, and it has a very limited pool size; and, finally, I like to save my points in case of Energy Attunement

Frostbite is amazing simply because the Magus can get many attacks per round, coupled with his easily achieved 15-20 crit range. Cast frostbite to give each hit some nasty bite, and then add on Shocking Grasp next round for good measure.

[Elricaltovilla]

3) While you can add pluses with Arcane Pool you are still limited to the +5 bonus. Once your Arcane Pool bonus reaches +3 and your blade reaches +3 then when you activate the pool you have to spend at least one of the pluses on an ability- Flaming, Keen, etc

Yeah, I get that. But I'm not looking to get an early +1 to the blade. I'm looking to enchant it with an ability anyway. Like Keen, Swift or Agile. If I can exceed a +5 bonus with those on a normal weapon, why can't I do it with my black blade?

And I still don't understand what its ego score has to do with me being able to enchant it.


4) Ahh. There is no limit to how many pool points you are allowed to transfer; just limited by your sword's base pool and how many kills you get with it. Additionally, I think it's possible you can make your sword out of a special material; one of them absorbs arcane points upon a crit/kill.

Once again, you're looking at the wrong ability. I'm talking about this one:


Life Drinker (Su): At 19th level, each time the magus kills a living creature with the black blade, he can pick one of the following effects: the black blade restores 2 points to its arcane pool; the black blade restores 1 point to its arcane pool and the magus restores 1 point to his arcane pool; the magus gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the black blade’s ego (these temporary hit points last until spent or 1 minute, whichever is shorter). The creature killed must have a number of Hit Dice equal to half the magus’s character level for this to occur.

There's nothing about transferring in that description at all.


5) Not being able to add your desired enhancements to the weapon can be irritating; that Agile enchantment is very enticing for a dexterity magus. But it's the rules for going Bladebound, and you still get to apply a bevy of nice enchantments via arcane pool. And Black Blade Strike is nice, but your weapon needs at least one point in its pool to remain being unbreakable, and it has a very limited pool size; and, finally, I like to save my points in case of Energy Attunement

Once again, where in the rules does it say I can't do it? I can do it to any other weapon in the game as long as I can afford it, why not the black blade?