How to reel in a PC caster as a DM

[Exie]

tl;dr powergamer won't tone down casting, party in ruins. Wat do

One of my players is a power gamer who meticulously builds powerful (and board reviewed) casters. Currently she's looking at a Wix3/Master Specialist 5 with the UA summoning variants and etc.

The rest of the party are two beefy types and a Cloistered Cleric / Radiant servant of pelor. Basically, the three of them can fight ALL DAY LONG and still be at full hp.

The problem that we're going to run into is one of two things, and I need to know how to deal with them.

For the first few rounds a day, she's going to be able to dominate the entire fight while everyone else twiddles their thumbs. Then she's going to run out of spells, and want to rest. While the rest of the party hasn't done anything; and is still relatively high on resources.

1- If they leave her behind, they'll be in fights that are too tough for them, and possibly die.
2- If they wait, we're back to the start of them not getting any action.

So how do I avoid this from happening? I've already shot down a few of her builds because the other there characters are already built. I told her their power level, and said I would be balancing EVERYONE at the same level... which happens to be roughly mid/high t4. She's thrown nothing but super optimized t2 and t1 builds at me.

[Bhaakon]

Make her act out the spellcasting at the table, using DM-written embarrassing magic words and gestures.

Seriously, though, talk to the player. The main problem seems to be the 15-minute adventuring day. You, as DM, can do some things to force players to continue (time-dependent quests, no safe resting spots, etc.), but a competent wizard is going to find a way around many of them. You're better off discussing it with the player than trying to force her to rest in-game.

[Emperor Tippy]

Kill her?

Mr. Archmage McWizardton likes to use his divination's to learn about future threats to himself. He just found out that in twenty years time the PC Caster would be the greatest threat that he would face.

Being the smart wizard that he is, he dispatched his Dark Grey Elf Factotum assassin to deal with the problem.

A level 8 Factotum is CR8. A party is expected to face four of those threats per day. A level 10 Factotum is also just fine per the rules.

It's not your fault that the party doesn't have the level of paranoia.

See, the Factotum is plane shifted to the Etheral Plane. He is then teleported to an area close to the resting party. Once next to the caster he activates his Craft Contingent Greater Blink and then proceeds to spend all of his IP on Cunning Strike or Cunning Surge for maximum damage with his Thinuan Dagger.

---
What, it's a perfectly legal equal CR fight. It's not your fault that the party wasn't prepared for a proper assassin being tasked to kill one of them.

This can, incidentally, also be a great plot hook and allows you a ton of options.

Next time ensure that the player makes a character that is around the power level that you want in the game. Or just keep killing them.

I mean the party will eventually try to interfere in the plans of a high level caster. It's kinda their job description. Well some of those enemies have resources and brains and don't screw around when it comes to dealing with future threats.

[Curmudgeon]

If the player wants to stop adventuring after running out of spells, play dirty: have most of the interesting, XP-granting stuff happen when she's tucked away in her Rope Trick. Like random encounters with passing royalty, who will give entry visas to their kingdom to those friendly PCs they encounter (which excludes the resting Wizard). When the Wizard is up and around, have big groups of low-CR mooks come around for her to waste her spells on.

If the player won't respond to hints, just tailor the game to penalize her, on a statistically fair basis, for spending most of each adventuring day not adventuring. If she's only out and about 10% of each day, she should expect 90% of the good stuff to happen when she's not around.

[Talakeal]

If the 15 minute adventuring day is a mechanical rather than thematic problem then simply only send one encounter a day after them, with an average CR of party level +4.

Aside from that you just need to ban a few of the more broken spells and come up with a clear and limiting ruling on the spells which have a fuzzy or abusable RAW.

[Just to Browse]

Kill her?


play dirty

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1373070/no-god-please-no-o.gif

NO GOD PLEASE NO NO

Bhaakon has it right. Your players are people, so you should treat them like people. If you don't like the dynamic, you talk to him/her, and he/she will agree.

[elonin]

If Ms. wizard wants to blow through all her spells in the first 15 minutes then she deserves what she gets. Playing a caster right requires gauging threats and acting accordingly.

[Toy Killer]

Why are they deciding when to rest?

The world exists for them to exist within, not visit. Events are transpiring regardless if they're up for it or not. Let the conjurer choose to sleep and bring her party with, doesn't stop the BBEGs from trekking on with their schemes.

In the dungeon, using good old rope trick? Oh, they wake up after the conjurer has replenished her spells, and escort her to the BBEG only to find the dungeon is strangely... empty.

Because upon finding an intruder in his domain, he retroactively sent out his minions to destroy a near by town; How dare they send assassins his way?

Seriously, who reacts to being attacked and the pressure stopping with "*Whew* I dodged a bullet today!"?

Or stop letting her control her summons directly. Sure, she has final say in what they do, but how they do it is under your control. After all, they may be infernal (Celestial?) beings from across the planes, but gosh darn it, they have feelings too! and being used as cannon fodder and trap bait isn't right!

Speaking of which, what do the other realms have to say about their sudden disappearance of Fiendish Centipedes, Celestial Lions and such? A party of fiendish NPCs may take up a quest to stop her from destroying their ecosystem.

-----

Personally, I like handling things in game when out of game discussion fails...

[Vaz]

Steal her spellbook. Attack while they're still camping. Force them to split up, or isolate them from each other. Have a counter speller/dispel/anti magic/dead magic zone ready.

[Averis Vol]

I've seen/been this kind of player before, and what I learned when not the one being that guy (I was new, I still thought of dnd as a game to win.) is....well, leave them; the game isn't tailored around the casters terrible work ethic. Were it me, I would continue on with my comrades and play incredibly safe. Ya know, maybe have the cleric summon something with a good fly speed and spot check to scout the area so they don't get ambushed, and if there is trouble, make sure we have the upper hand in the fight.

Eventually the mage will either:
1)get fed up with being left behind and learn to manage her spells better
2)get frustrated, and build a character that doesn't have so many expendable resources
Or the worst case
3)rage at the group for picking on her

all but the last is acceptable, and normally I'd agree that you should talk to her, but it seems you've tried, so let her learn her lesson the hard way, it makes you stronger after all.

[pbdr]

Or put restrictions on spells available, classes, feats, abilities, etc.. As a DM you are free to allow or not allow whatever material you see fit.

It might hurt the player's feeling to have you rein in their character, but keeping the campaign form getting out of control is important. I played a campaign where it was mostly core, but I talked the DM into letting me play a Warblade. The rest of the party were all core (A bard, a ranger, and a paladin), by 11th level the warblade was dominating most fights and the rest of the party was pretty disgruntled, we eventually ended the campaign but we were just phoning it in by then. In retrospect, it would have been better if the DM had put the kybash on the warblade when it started getting out of hand.

[Juntao112]

Suggestion: Time constraints.

Also, do not be a Richard.

[J-H]

1) Use variant point-buy rules: Tier 1 gets 24 point buy, Tier 2 gets 28, Tier 3 gets 30, Tier 4-5 get 34.

2) Keep them from resting - prevent her from going nova.

3) Set the campaign in Athkatla, or someplace like that.. A "donation" to the Cowled Wizards is required to practice magic, and spell scrolls are hard to come by. No magic mart, limit her selection of spells and arcane items.

4) Enemy selection. I don't know if they made the jump from 2E, but Nishruus, Hakeashars, Magic Golems (immune to magic & magical weapons) are all ways to give the non-magic users ways to shine.

5) Intelligent caster tactics. Can she pass a save against Grease? Ray of Stupidity? Glitterdust? -4ab is bad for melee, but worse for casters...

[blackspeeker]

Short of talking to the player I really like the idea of the world moving while the Pcs rest. Ive done this myself having the villains ambush the Pcs just outside of their ropetrick.

[Emperor Tippy]

The problem with what most people have suggested is that it is the worst kind of railroading; changing the rules and arbitrarily messing with a player just because you don't like their abilities or play style.

If the players rest in the middle of a dungeon or on a time sensitive mission and get screwed over by it, well that is one thing. If the players went and pissed off someone incredibly powerful without knowing it, that is also perfectly acceptable (and rules wise you are fine unless you start throwing things like Pit Fiends at level 8 parties as "random" encounters).

Just randomly stealing spell books, arbitrarily changing how spells work, and similar things is about the worst way to DM because it turns the situation from the players against the world to the players against the DM.

[animewatcha]

Is this around the appropriate CR for enemies to be able to do divine turning counterspelling or whatever it is that uses turn attempts to have casters waste their turns/spells?

[Arcanist]

Kill her?

Mr. Archmage McWizardton likes to use his divination's to learn about future threats to himself. He just found out that in twenty years time the PC Caster would be the greatest threat that he would face.


The problem with what most people have suggested is that it is the worst kind of railroading; changing the rules and arbitrarily messing with a player just because you don't like their abilities or play style.

This is pretty much board line Time Assassination and then you point at everyone else saying they're wrong/bad because THEY'RE railroading? Really? God forbid he actually kills the Assassin and Archmage McWizardton knew his Assassin would fail (USING HIS ALL MIGHTY DIVINATIONS!) and sent more and more assassins just to finish him off... And you don't think there might be a problem with this? :smallconfused:


Is this around the appropriate CR for enemies to be able to do divine turning counterspelling or whatever it is that uses turn attempts to have casters waste their turns/spells?

THIS is a little bit more reasonable, especially as a random encounter. Any Paladin above 6th level expecting to encounter spellcasters should have that feat.

[Curmudgeon]

If you don't like the dynamic, you talk to him/her, and he/she will agree.
Why do you think that? The whole reason for this thread is:

powergamer won't tone down casting
The OP has tried talking to the player, and she hasn't agreed to tone down her character's spellcasting.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is pretty much board line Time Assassination
Yes. That is how proper high level casters fight.


and then you point at everyone else saying they're wrong/bad because THEY'RE railroading? Really?
I didn't railroad. Assuming that the PC caster will survive to reach high level play, she will be the greatest threat to a high level caster in the future. Said caster will then deal with the threat before the PC becomes a threat.


God forbid he actually kills the Assassin
Why? You now have a good plot hook to use however you want and you can just keep throwing assassins at the caster. The DMG says that the party should face four equal CR challenges per day. If the players won't go and face them then the challenges will just have to come to them. Go and do a proper adventure that day? Well then no assassins came for you that night. Fail to go and properly adventure? Well then you go to sleep and an assassin tries to shank you from another plane.


and Archmage McWizardton knew his Assassin would fail (USING HIS ALL MIGHTY DIVINATIONS!) and sent more and more assassins just to finish him off... And you don't think there might be a problem with this? :smallconfused:
Why would there be? Use an Ice Assassin trap to just mass produce assassins. Archmage McWizardton is efficient. The assassin comes out of the Ice Assassin trap and steps into the Wish trap chain which hits him with the 10 Craft Contingent spells that have been chosen and provides the magical items for his profession. The Ice Assassin then uses it's one Wish ring of Three Wishes item to transport himself to the area of his target.

Easy, efficient, self sustaining, perfectly in character.

---
It's a CR appropriate challenge. Of which the PC's should face four per day. It's just a CR appropriate challenge that is virtually guaranteed to permanently remove the offender from play in a fully justifiable (using both IC logic and by the rules) manner.

[Vaz]

The problem with what most people have suggested is that it is the worst kind of railroading; changing the rules and arbitrarily messing with a player just because you don't like their abilities or play style.

If the players rest in the middle of a dungeon or on a time sensitive mission and get screwed over by it, well that is one thing. If the players went and pissed off someone incredibly powerful without knowing it, that is also perfectly acceptable (and rules wise you are fine unless you start throwing things like Pit Fiends at level 8 parties as "random" encounters).

Just randomly stealing spell books, arbitrarily changing how spells work, and similar things is about the worst way to DM because it turns the situation from the players against the world to the players against the DM.

Because having an Assassin spent specifically to kill them because Epic Wizard X from his demiplane is feeling insecure and decides to kill them, so just so happens to send along an Assassin (who is also the same level as the party exactly?) buffed by a bazillion tricks designed just so much to kill them to send a message of "Don't F' the DM" is run of the mill and unrailroady.

While I agree with what you say a lot of the time, this quite frankly an utterly ridiculous comment.

[Just to Browse]

Why do you think that? The whole reason for this thread is:

The OP has tried talking to the player, and she hasn't agreed to tone down her character's spellcasting.

I recommend not reading the tl;dr section and instead reading the full post. The only call the OP ever made to an actual discussion with the player was saying that he shot down her t1/t2 builds. The OP has not told us whether or not he went to the player and said "Hey I've been noticing you use a lot of really strong builds. I need you to not use those. How about these classes?"

And even if he has, your solution of screwing the player over takes the fun out of the game for everyone, including bystanders. I have another five suggestions that I would be more than willing to throw out, and literally none of them involve passive-aggressive hints or forcing her to miss plot hooks.

[Curmudgeon]

Use an Ice Assassin trap to just mass produce assassins. Archmage McWizardton is efficient. The assassin comes out of the Ice Assassin trap and steps into the Wish trap chain ...
That'll never fly if the DM doesn't agree to such shenanigans. From page 74 of Dungeon Master's Guide:
PC-Designed Magic Traps: If a player character wants to design and construct a magic trap, he must ... When you and the player have agreed on what spells and other elements the trap contains, you can determine the cost of the raw materials for the trap and the CR of the trap. Every PC-designed magic trap is only with DM approval. If the DM wants to be a traditionalist and only agree to PC-designed magic traps when they deal damage directly, the rules support that game style explicitly.

[JusticeZero]

There's also the bimodal/trimodal ambush. Someone I know changed their ways a lot as far as spell conservation on getting a couple of these.

They were in the desert, and over the next dune comes riding a group racing down at them at a full charge. Like clockwork, they tear into them with all their best spells and techniques! The warband's leader collapses in front of the group, mortally wounded. "Why.. are you fighting.. us..." and dies.
...And then, the massed forces of the BBEG's army boil over the top of the dune in hot pursuit of the first group...

[Emperor Tippy]

That'll never fly if the DM doesn't agree to such shenanigans. From page 74 of Dungeon Master's Guide: Every PC-designed magic trap is only with DM approval. If the DM wants to be a traditionalist and only agree to PC-designed magic traps when they deal damage directly, the rules support that game style explicitly.

...This is an NPC and thus the DM doing it.

[Story]

{{scrubbed}}

[Arcanist]

I got ninja'd a minute before this post... FML


Yes. That is how proper high level casters fight.

And it is the single most railroad-y thing any DM can do to a PC.

"I don't like your character so rocks fall, only you die, everyone else gets free soda."


I didn't railroad.

I'm sorry, you're right; you DM's fiated the problem away. That is just as good.


Assuming that the PC caster will survive to reach high level play, she will be the greatest threat to a high level caster in the future. Said caster will then deal with the threat before the PC becomes a threat.

By this same logic the PC caster could also become said Casters greatest ally (or asset since Wizards don't have friends, just possessions that can walk and talk).

You are intentionally targeting that player for no other reasons then because he won't conform to your desired style of game play. The obvious and simple solution to this would be talking to the player and saying "tone it down a little" or setting a definitive tier structure for the players (T3 and under is a personal favorite).

The game should actually be logically challenging to the PCs and when someone doesn't like how someone plays or handles their crap they shouldn't just be smacked out of the game with some Scry-&-Die resolution to the problem.


Why? You now have a good plot hook to use however you want and you can just keep throwing assassins at the caster. The DMG says that the party should face four equal CR challenges per day. If the players won't go and face them then the challenges will just have to come to them. Go and do a proper adventure that day? Well then no assassins came for you that night. Fail to go and properly adventure? Well then you go to sleep and an assassin tries to shank you from another plane.

I've no problem with setting up good plotlines and the such, but saying "Because you didn't fight 4 encounters today, you are going to get knifed in the back tonight; This will be a coup de grace and since I know you can't make the save short of that 5% chance of a Nat 20, you die. Roll up a new guy. Make sure s/he isn't totally broken this time."


Why would there be? Use an Ice Assassin trap to just mass produce assassins. Archmage McWizardton is efficient. The assassin comes out of the Ice Assassin trap and steps into the Wish trap chain which hits him with the 10 Craft Contingent spells that have been chosen and provides the magical items for his profession. The Ice Assassin then uses it's one Wish ring of Three Wishes item to transport himself to the area of his target.

I think this speaks for itself :smallconfused:


It's a CR appropriate challenge. Of which the PC's should face four per day. It's just a CR appropriate challenge that is virtually guaranteed to permanently remove the offender from play in a fully justifiable (using both IC logic and by the rules) manner.

This has been said time and time again. Simply killing a PC's character just because you don't like their playstyle or character is childish to do as a DM. If your campaign world cannot handle a party of 4-6 PCs of various levels then your campaign world is underpowered. If your campaign world kills your PC's 2 rounds into the campaign then your campaign world is overpowered.

CR is crap and using it as an actual argument for why Time Assassinations are fair game is malarkey. Using such methods only encourages your PCs to use them as well at which point it becomes a game of DM Vs PC.

[Exie]

Alright, sorry for not being clear

Her first character (A pseudo-dragonesque sorcerer) was designed to be immune to everything, and have the ability to one shot as many things as possible (while using Unseen Crafter to boost her assets to almost 4x her wealth by level). Asked her to bring it back under control and rebuild her character sheet during the downtime; and she just said she would make a new character that's more in line with the group.

She replaced it with the said-wizard - who's almost exact extremely optimized build was the second link after Googling the PrC. Immune to losing her spell book, and a plethora of summoning goodies with a powerful spell selection.

I suggested she couldn't possibly play that character and still be of the same power level as any of the group members. "You would have to play the character horribly stupid to be on their power level. We're talking summing a Whale in the desert a hundred feet from your enemy stupid."
... To which her only reply was, "does that mean I can add Whales to my summon list?"

All of the other characters had free reign over all official material, as long as they OKd it with me first. She's the only one trying to abuse it.

[Alienist]

Learn to say no.

Alternatively, have really fun adventures planned for when she disappears up her own rope trick. Things that play to the strengths of the other party members, but which can reasonably be resolved in ~8 hours or less.

Get the other players to apply pressure. Don't give xp if the wizard obliterates everything in one round. Obviously it wasn't a challenge, hence it's not worth anything.

Announce that you will no longer grant xp for combat encounters, and only give it for roleplaying. If she spends 90% of the day in self-imposed exile, give her 10% of the xp award.

[NichG]

Sets bad precedent. Once the DM has done such a thing, the party will do such a thing, and the game degrades.

Talk to the player directly, explain the problem, explain that as GM your responsibility is to maintain equal spotlight time and that doing so takes priority over the rules, and then ask the player how he might like to help you succeed in this responsibility.

Much better if the player nerfs themself, then there's no animosity. If it fails to happen, boost everyone else up with plot bennies, tailored loot, and the like, while letting the powergamer stand entirely on their own expertise (then you can increase encounter difficulty to match). If that still fails, then move to bans, rules modifications, etc.

[Alienist]

The standard advice around here when a player dislikes even the minutest thing a DM does is to find a new DM. Why not turn that around?

Is it possible to just not tell her when the next game is on? Find other players who are more interested in shared fun than sucking the fun out of it for everyone else?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Learn to say no.

This might be all you can do. It sounds like the player is determined to play a broken character, and refuses to tone it down, yes? You might have to issue an ultimatum here: "____, you're wildly overshadowing your friends, and that's not OK. Either get your characters on the same level-- and that doesn't mean all optimized out the wazoo, _____, build a party favorite buffer, or find another game."

[Deophaun]

She replaced it with the said-wizard - who's almost exact extremely optimized build was the second link after Googling the PrC. Immune to losing her spell book, and a plethora of summoning goodies with a powerful spell selection.
The PrC is OK. It at least gets rid of the Wizard bonus feats, which actually makes it less insane than an optimized Wizard. You're dealing with a summoning-focused caster, which while versatile, is also one of the weaker focuses you can have for a caster. Boosting caster level, for instance, will only net you an additional round of summoning plus an additional hit point. Whippity-do. The biggest problem is that it can slow down combat, which can be remedied by farming out control of the summons to other players.

"You would have to play the character horribly stupid to be on their power level. We're talking summing a Whale in the desert a hundred feet from your enemy stupid."
That is stupid. As in, "Can't be done" stupid. As in "I don't know the rules" stupid. If she tries to summon said whale in a desert, remind her that creatures can only be summoned into environments that can support them.

All of the other characters had free reign over all official material, as long as they OKd it with me first. She's the only one trying to abuse it.
So far, I'm only seeing a standard, run-of-the-mill summoning Wizard. If that's what passes for rule abuse at your table, you are lucky.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wow, your suggestion is horrible Tippy. The DM playing Rules Lawyer doesn't prove anything when said DM is also the one making and interpreting the rules. All it proves is that you're a passive aggressive jerk who isn't honest enough to say Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.
So I'm a passive aggressive, dishonest, rules lawyer jerk because I suggested that maybe the DM should throw a CR appropriate challenge at the party and provided just one of a hundred possible explanations for that challenge?

If the player wants to play high op, high power, D&D then that is fine. The downside of doing that is that the DM should actually treat the rest of the world realistically and not just throw horribly designed monsters and challenges at you for you to stomp all over.

A Dark Grey Elf Factotum 10 is a CR 10 or 11 fight, it's a perfectly reasonable challenge for a ECL8 party to face.

It's also a great plot hook that can be used in any number of ways. The caster was the unknown heir of an Emperor and so one faction at court dispatched an assassin to permanently deal with that problem as preparation for a coup. The PC's investigate and end up having to prevent the coup.

Or the local monsters are tired of the PC's interfering in their monster business and have put a bounty on the PC's (with the casters naturally being the highest as she is the biggest threat). This can turn into a whole arc where the players are on the opposite side (adventurers are coming after them instead of them going after others).

Or the assassin was the last of his family line and he has sworn to exterminate and soul trap every member of the line that wiped out his family and the PC just happens to be one of them. Perhaps the players next character is the assassins next target and the PC's have to protect him/her and deal with the assassin.

That's three complete campaign arcs off the top of my head. All eminently justifiable.

If the player wants to just play a basic hack'n'slash game without much power playing then that's fine, the DM shouldn't break out the optimized enemies and in-depth plans that will slaughter most PC's. However, if the player wants to play as a high powered, highly optimized, character then the DM should play the world the same way.

Instead of fighting a Solar at level 19 you get to fight a 38 HD Dark Shadesteel Golem Factotum 19/Mind Bender 1 with multiple epic feats and access to 9th level spells; it's CR 21.


I got ninja'd a minute before this post... FML

And it is the single most railroad-y thing any DM can do to a PC.

"I don't like your character so rocks fall, only you die, everyone else gets free soda."
No, railroading is forcing a player to do something or arbitrarily interfering with their character. It's not having them face a CR appropriate challenge.


I'm sorry, you're right; you DM's fiated the problem away. That is just as good.
No, I made the world act like it really does. It's a world populated by individual superpowers who are more intelligent than most gods. Now how will they deal with a potential future threat? Do nothing until it comes and attacks them? Or take thirty seconds to dispatch a minion to deal with the threat now.


By this same logic the PC caster could also become said Casters greatest ally (or asset since Wizards don't have friends, just possessions that can walk and talk).
Yes. It's perfectly fine to have greater powers than the players shaping the players environment and actions without the players knowing about it. Does a PC dying mean that some plan a hundred years down the road will fail? Well then the caster pulls off a quick teleport through time and ensures that the PC in question will end up resurrected (why their was, fortuitously, a scroll of Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection in the treasure at the end of the Dungeon. that was so lucky).

PC's are generally ignorant pawns in games that shape the history of entire planes, and the players in those games are forces far beyond their imagining that are moving them for their own reasons. If the PC's are exceptionally lucky and skilled then they might eventually become players themselves.


You are intentionally targeting that player for no other reasons then because he won't conform to your desired style of game play. The obvious and simple solution to this would be talking to the player and saying "tone it down a little" or setting a definitive tier structure for the players (T3 and under is a personal favorite).
And the OP already tried that and it didn't work. If a player wants high op then they can force it, regardless of the tier structure. Your available options are to 1) kick the player out or 2) optimize to counter the player.


The game should actually be logically challenging to the PCs and when someone doesn't like how someone plays or handles their crap they shouldn't just be smacked out of the game with some Scry-&-Die resolution to the problem.
It is logically challenging. Smacking them out of the game would be a level 20 Wizard Shapechanging into a Zodar, Wishing himself to the PC's location, shapechanging into a Dragon, and then eating all of them.

Forcing the party to face a CR appropriate challenge is not smacking them out of the game.


I've no problem with setting up good plotlines and the such, but saying "Because you didn't fight 4 encounters today, you are going to get knifed in the back tonight; This will be a coup de grace and since I know you can't make the save short of that 5% chance of a Nat 20, you die. Roll up a new guy. Make sure s/he isn't totally broken this time."

If the player doesn't defend themselves then it's their own fault. They get four CR appropriate challenges per day. Or 1 higher CR challenge per day.

Instead of the factotum assassin just send a Rudimentary Intelligence Shade Steel Golem with a Shadow Evocation Invisible Continual Flame Ioun Stone. It's only CR 12. Perfectly acceptable for a 1/day challenge.



This has been said time and time again. Simply killing a PC's character just because you don't like their playstyle or character is childish to do as a DM. If your campaign world cannot handle a party of 4-6 PCs of various levels then your campaign world is underpowered. If your campaign world kills your PC's 2 rounds into the campaign then your campaign world is overpowered.
It's the players choice. If the player chooses to play a high op game then that is fine but they should expect to face high op challenges. If the player chooses to play a low op game then that is also fine but they should expect to face low op challenges. Those are general statements.

In the OP's case, the player chose to go high op after being asked by the DM not to do so and being told that this was supposed to be a moderate power game.

That was the players choice, now the player get's to live with the consequences; high op challenges.


CR is crap and using it as an actual argument for why Time Assassinations are fair game is malarkey. Using such methods only encourages your PCs to use them as well at which point it becomes a game of DM Vs PC.
And if CR is crap then you shouldn't assign XP based on it. You also seem to not get that the player chose to use such methods first. The player went high op and so the DM responds in kind. And that is a match that the DM can always win.



Alright, sorry for not being clear

Her first character (A pseudo-dragonesque sorcerer) was designed to be immune to everything, and have the ability to one shot as many things as possible (while using Unseen Crafter to boost her assets to almost 4x her wealth by level). Asked her to bring it back under control and rebuild her character sheet during the downtime; and she just said she would make a new character that's more in line with the group.

She replaced it with the said-wizard - who's almost exact extremely optimized build was the second link after Googling the PrC. Immune to losing her spell book, and a plethora of summoning goodies with a powerful spell selection.
It's impossible under the rules to actually go over WBL. You are allowed X GP value worth of items at Y level, whether you get them from random treasure, robbing the magic shop, Wish abuse, crafting, or anything else is utterly irrelevant. Just because you craft doesn't mean you get to double WBL.


I suggested she couldn't possibly play that character and still be of the same power level as any of the group members. "You would have to play the character horribly stupid to be on their power level. We're talking summing a Whale in the desert a hundred feet from your enemy stupid."
... To which her only reply was, "does that mean I can add Whales to my summon list?"

All of the other characters had free reign over all official material, as long as they OKd it with me first. She's the only one trying to abuse it.

Is the player overshadowing the rest of the group? Not can she but is she.

If she isn't and the players are having fun then it honestly doesn't matter if nothing they face is really a challenge for her.

[animewatcha]

This goes out to those optimizers out there, by this level/cr. How many turning pools can be gotten onto one single creature before adding in things like nightsticks, etc. These coming with the summer caress unseelie gey template. Template only activating when versus said wizards or summoned creatures ( DM fiat or call it whatever you want ). Template not activating versus 2 beefy and the radiant cleric of burning hate super sun god.

Does this wizard 'go first' automatically or has to win initiative?

-edit- just remembered the trapsmith prestige class in Dungeonscape. Using artificer ( main way to raise caster level ) make wands of greater dispel magic. proceed to counterspell.

Sidenote - What is the cost of that ring that tells you when a spell has been cast within like 60 or 100 feet with 'seemingly' no way to conceal the 'spell has been cast' signal to the wearer?

[Exie]

Is the player overshadowing the rest of the group? Not can she but is she.

If she isn't and the players are having fun then it honestly doesn't matter if nothing they face is really a challenge for her.

She is, and all three of the other players have approached me about it.

[Pickford]

Kill her?

Mr. Archmage McWizardton likes to use his divination's to learn about future threats to himself. He just found out that in twenty years time the PC Caster would be the greatest threat that he would face.

What spell are you proposing to achieve that bolded part?

For the OP: Put them in a situation they can't rest in. (And thus must logically conserve their resources)

[Averis Vol]

I'm pretty sure once you get an arch mage involved, its no longer a level appropriate challenge. Sure if the wizard had said:

wizard: "Yo, assassin bro, this sorcerer or whatever she is is going to be a problem, do your thing."
Assassin: "Kay, *Proceeds to put sharp objects in their proper place before grabbing his cloak and going*"

That would be the CR 10-11 encounter, but once you throw in his own (the archmages) personal sortie of spells, buffs and items, then it becomes obesely over CR. To better gauge it. how much would each of those spells cost to have cast on the murdertotem? its probably a lot more then his WBL would indicate.

(As a note; I'm not opposed to teaching a PC a lesson, but it should at least be within a sportsmanlike challenge, this is very openly hostile)

[Mirakk]

This sounds like a job for the Ethereal Dwarf!


I made this Ethereal Dwarf once, that was an expert Trap maker. When the party started to go the wrong way that damn Ethereal Dwarf would just start laying traps all over the place. Basically any time someone was being a jerk, not paying attention or what have you, this dwarf would pop in and do something detrimental that reminded them that they were somehow being disruptive to the story.


It was just a running gag at the table, to be honest. But seriously, don't be above having a ghost haunt her or other strange menace that mostly leaves the party alone but otherwise makes her expend resources to deal with on a daily basis. Having all kinds of spells is great, but when you have to use half of them to deal with today's huge PITA problem the moment you woke up, it kind of forces you back in line with the party's power level.

Just a minor suggestion.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm pretty sure once you get an arch mage involved, its no longer a level appropriate challenge. Sure if the wizard had said:

wizard: "Yo, assassin bro, this sorcerer or whatever she is is going to be a problem, do your thing."
Assassin: "Kay, *Proceeds to put sharp objects in their proper place before grabbing his cloak and going*"

That is what I said to do.

Honestly, the only thing the assassin has that is actually expensive is the Thinuan Dagger. The rest can be done for a pittance.

Total cost wise the assassin comes in under NPC WBL.

[Talakeal]

I am going to have to side with Tippy here. I don't think he is suggesting you kill the PC with DM FIAT or use TO shenanigans to punish the player.
Rather I think he is saying that if you are going to run an optimized caster then you have to assume that your opponents will use the same level of optimization in their tactics against you, and offering a believable explanation for how you could do such without violating the CR guidelines.

Also, I thought the main reason traps factored into so many TO scenarios is because unlike magic items they do NOT require any sort of GM approval to create.

[NichG]

One of the problems with Tippy's suggestion here of using this assassination attempt and then spinning plotlines off of it is that you're basically rewarding this player's bad behavior.

He's an optimizer, so odds are he likes opportunities to try new builds and tricks. If he doesn't there's no reason he wouldn't bring in 'Bob's brother' with near-identical build. Beyond that, you're making this character the center of the plot for one or more games. The problem is that he's stealing the spotlight; the solution is not to give him more face time and plot relevance!

The most brutal punishment the DM could use to try to 'teach this player a lesson' (not recommended! merely written here as a demonstration) within the framework of the game is to absolutely ignore them and never feed them any plothooks, opportunities, etc.

[Talakeal]

One of the problems with Tippy's suggestion here of using this assassination attempt and then spinning plotlines off of it is that you're basically rewarding this player's bad behavior.

He's an optimizer, so odds are he likes opportunities to try new builds and tricks. If he doesn't there's no reason he wouldn't bring in 'Bob's brother' with near-identical build. Beyond that, you're making this character the center of the plot for one or more games. The problem is that he's stealing the spotlight; the solution is not to give him more face time and plot relevance!

The most brutal punishment the DM could use to try to 'teach this player a lesson' (not recommended! merely written here as a demonstration) within the framework of the game is to absolutely ignore them and never feed them any plothooks, opportunities, etc.

Depends. Some people thrize on attention. Other people just thrive on hearing the words "you win" regardless of context. If it is the latter Tippy's suggestion will probably work a lot better than if it is the former.

[NichG]

Punishment doesn't work absent causality anyhow. If the player doesn't understand what they did wrong (or worse, doesn't feel they did anything wrong) then any kind of punishment is just going to create sourness and drama.

Regardless if someone likes 'you win' or 'attention', engaging OOC behavior with in-game responses legitimizes the behavior. It sends the message that this behavior is allowed play, and furthermore that it can control the game that is being played (namely, from whatever it was into a 2-person optimization war between the DM and the player).

The answer is talk to the player OOC, make causality clear, make it clear the point is relative PC power and not some abstract theory of game design so there's no way the issue can get confused with 'rules legality', 'intrinsic rules balance', etc. Turning the game into 'I must beat this guy down' means you've already lost any hope of really resolving the issue.

[Douglas]

The real problem with Tippy's "solution" is that, from the players' perspective, it is indistinguishable from a DM fiat kill. They do not see any of the logic, preparation, warning, or reasoning behind it, and with nothing like this having ever happened before in their game, a typical player's first assumption is going to be that the assassin is a very thin disguise of what's really a "rocks fall" event. I would expect the player to react with a very quick and very angry accusation of an unfair DM fiat kill for no reason, and to be extremely difficult to convince after the fact that she is wrong. It could easily blow up into a full shouting rage match, quitting the group, and potentially even a broken friendship.

Having the world react in logical ways can work, but the players have to be aware of the machinery or extremely trusting in the DM if you want them to accept extremely negative results produced by it.

The core idea of sending an assassin after her is fine. Having the very first one use buffs and strategy that produce a near-guaranteed kill is not. Once she is aware that the assassin game is being played, then you can ramp up the optimization of the assassins - but either do it gradually or with an out of character warning. Also, if you go this route, be prepared for an extreme paranoia reaction. There is a high chance that the steps she takes to counter assassination will disrupt the rest of the campaign quite thoroughly.

In any case, I would highly recommend using some variant of a "time passing has consequences" approach instead. If the party stops 15 minutes into the day to rest, the world moves on without them. Figure out ways for this to inconvenience the party with reasonably obvious logic. Meanwhile, calibrate your encounters with her being active but at a more sustainable level in mind. Try to generate pressure, both directly and via the other characters - in character - for her to gauge encounter difficulty and spend only the resources necessary rather than blowing her whole daily load on overkilling one fight.

[Zarrgon]

If you are going to run an optimized caster then you have to assume that your opponents will use the same level of optimization in their tactics against you, and offering a believable explanation for how you could do such without violating the CR guidelines.

This is the answer right here. The DM just needs to optimize the world. And you don't even need to break the rules to do so.

For Example:

1)It only takes two rogue levels to get Evasion. And that is no damage taken on a successful reflex save. Add in Lightning Reflexes. Add Cloak of Resistance and/or Gauntlets of Dexterity and a potion of haste. (or a ring of evasion to save two class levels.) Make it a race with a bonus to dex (lets say bugbear or Jermlain). In short, you will have a minion that will likely survive a typical magic blast. Then add dozes of them.

2)Spell Resistance. It does work.

3)Spell immunities work good too.

4)Level dips. Giving a foe even just one level in a class can give it all sorts of things. Barbarians get fast move and rage, and any spellcasting class lets you use wands of that spell list.

5)Templates. There are lots of these, and they can stack great with other things. Half-fey for our dex build above, for example.

In short, just make the world optimized.

[Mnemnosyne]

I find myself in full agreement with Tippy's suggestions also. If the player has been asked to tone down and won't, and you don't want to just kick them out of the group, then the world can react in a way to remove the character and it can indeed be wholly in-character within the world.

The rest of the party, as noted, are playing in ways that would never, ever be a threat to a powerful, optimized, paranoid archmage. This one character, on the other hand...this character is setting himself up to one day be a potential challenger for this archmage. The archmagehas every reason in the world to send out minions to specifically deal with the one character that can challenge him. The rest of the party is pretty much irrelevant as far as he's concerned. Not to mention, after the assassin blows most of his abilities on the wizard, the rest of the party should easily trounce him, which wouldn't matter to the archmage because the assassin was an expendable duplicate anyway.

Now, douglas has a point that it might seem like a DM fiat kill, so an interesting way to go about this might be to have some NPC's comment on a similar wizard that died or just disappeared some time back. Like, 'y'know, you remind me of that other wizard guy...what ever happened to him?' And another comments, 'He vanished, nobody ever heard from him again...' or 'He died...darndest thing, too, he'd set funds aside for resurrecting himself, but the spells just kept failing.' Then shortly after the wizard character gets assassinated. It soon becomes obvious that highly optimized low level wizards tend to die because someone doesn't want them becoming highly optimized high level wizards.

It becomes a completely in-character explanation for why highly optimized characters don't exist. It keeps the game functioning primarily at the optimization level the DM and other players are comfortable at, without having to alter the rules. Everyone whose character build is strong enough to be a realistic threat to Archmage McWizardton dies before they can become high level. So the only successful adventurers are those that aren't that powerful. Indeed, the presence of such a setup explains a lot - why the BBEG doesn't use highly optimized tactics against the low tier players himself, for instance.

[Arbane]

On the one hand: Tippy is advocating being a killer DM. It seems actively perverse to me to tell PCs "you must suck at least THIS much to avoid getting instaganked."

On the other hand: The player is being a jerk by soloing everything.

On the third hand: If you're the DM, it is within your rights to either tell the player to dial it back a notch, boost the other PCs, or crank up the opposition.

Hm. can Rope Trick be dispelled from the outside?

[Morphie]

I think the problem is: the player is a powergamer but he doesn't know how to "powergame" the right way. To spend his greatest spells on the first encounter of the day is an amateur move, unless the party is fighting powerful enemies all the time. Wise spell selection and good judgement of when to use your biggest assets are keys to playing a consistent spellcaster.

One thing I just don't understand: why does the party decide to rest when most of them still haven't spent their resources? If they're still ok, they should continue - you have the power to keep them from resting for a while- but you can't just force them either to rest or to keep going, it's up to them. In the other hand if the other players are ok with resting without doing nothing they're doing it wrong. They have to make a stand if they are not happy with the way things are.

[Morphie]

You could make them face an enemy with an antimagic field around him.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You could try to get the character to be more conservative with her spells by enforcing the rules for recent casting.
Unless the party wants to spend 7 hours per day sitting around and another 8 hours sleeping for the wizard to regain spells they will soon learn so conserve their resources.

SRD:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions

If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

[nedz]

If you want to make her slightly paranoid — there is nothing which states that the extradimensional space accessed by a rope trick is empty. Just have some suitable victim hit her with a dying curse so that all of her rope tricks are filled with demons or something. You need to make this proof against Remove Curse: the simplest solution here is to have the curse spoken in a language no one in the party speaks. Ideally the party will be able to work out that something happened, but not realise what.

Now hit the party with down time random encounters, at night.

[lord_khaine]

In any case, I would highly recommend using some variant of a "time passing has consequences" approach instead. If the party stops 15 minutes into the day to rest, the world moves on without them. Figure out ways for this to inconvenience the party with reasonably obvious logic. Meanwhile, calibrate your encounters with her being active but at a more sustainable level in mind. Try to generate pressure, both directly and via the other characters - in character - for her to gauge encounter difficulty and spend only the resources necessary rather than blowing her whole daily load on overkilling one fight.

I second this notion, it has been said a couple of times before, but i also belive the best way to deal with this, is to create situations where the party cant just stop adventuring for the day, just because the wizard is out of spells.
Because if the wizzard is down to around 10-20 % of usual power, but the rest of the party at full power, then it sounds like its time for a couple of encounters :smalltongue:


You could try to get the character to be more conservative with her spells by enforcing the rules for recent casting.
Unless the party wants to spend 7 hours per day sitting around and another 8 hours sleeping for the wizard to regain spells they will soon learn so conserve their resources.

I belive part of the problem is, that the wizard is forcing them to do that :smallamused:

[facelessminion]

First, the primary thing to do is to just talk to this person privately. Though I rather laud, enjoy, and am at times a proponent of being a power-gaming cheese-weasel, it's significantly less fun when it cuts into the enjoyment of the rest of the party. So at least once more try and talk with the person about how their attempts at min-maxing have started feeling problematic, and see if it can't be dealt with that way.

If that doesn't work, I have a simpler on just how to potentially fix the situation, one that should help nip the problem in the bud without seeming like blatant rail-roading, or involve assassinations whilst the party is asleep:

Have an encounter made of a few gish warriors with the ability to cast silence. As per the rules - though I could be wrong - I'm fairly sure that the only person that gets a save on a silence spell is the person that it is cast upon. And though some sorcerer using a turbo-divination that extends several years into the future is perhaps a bit ridiculous, one that extends into the right this second and realizes that the caster is a problem is quite reasonable.

Thus, a group of fighterly sorts that can use Silence on themselves and all go after the caster first should help. :]

[kabreras]

First of all if she is using all her spell in 15 mn of the day she is a crap player and i mean CRAP PLAYER.

The world doesnt stop around while you are in a rope trick for 16h a day (yes you can replenish your spells only once a day not every 8 hours).

Rope trick can be found and can be dispeled , bbeg dont stop working their plans to whait her spells are back, corpses of killed creatures can be found by their allies that then go out with more peoples.

I would not hesitate when she want to go to hide to ask the others peoples what they are doing while she sleep and force them to play their char and alignement RP, thei will be forced to act and leave her if she doesnt want to follow.

Beeing a wizard is all about managing your spells for the day so you dont end up empty by midday. If you cant do that, play a warrior.

[ArcturusV]

So time to make her play something like a Warmage. Least so it sounds like. Seems like you already talked to her, several times, and has refused to comply. I think Tippy there has the right of it. If she DEMANDS trying to play a broken as hell fully optimized character... time to make them reap what they sow. Pull out no stops. It doesn't need to be "Rocks fall..." at all. But some competent, powerful types should certainly be taking an interest and looking to nip that potential problem in the bud before it blooms. I don't see it as being a "Killer DM" or otherwise being a jerk at that point. You already tried to hash it out like adults. They refused to compromise. This is more "You reap what you sow", over "I don't like you... DIE!". They refuse to play anything but a high power, optimized character? Then they should expect high power, optimized opposition.

[TheDarkSaint]

I think there needs to be a combination of things to happen.

First, it sounds like you've discussed this with her and she isn't likely to change. She needs to be warned that things will be changing some in game to accommodate her optimizations.

2nd: Mooks. Lots of mid-powered mooks in the first way. She blows out most of her power taking them out. If you need to, disguise the to make them look more powerful.
Then, hit the party with the real challenge. Do this 5 or 6 times and she'll start conserving spells.

3rd: Optimize your NPC's. Summoners have a hard time if they go against someone who's into battle field control. Blasters will have a difficult time against Abjurationists.

4th: Treat her level as if it were 2-3 levels higher than it is, if she is that highly optimized. Use that to determine her xp. She can't learn if she is not challenged and blasting through everything in round 1 means it is easy for her.

5th: Focus a few adventures on skills and rp elements that can't be solved by summoning a beastie.

Good luck!

[Regal Kain]

I'm mostly in agreeance with Tippy myself.

It is ALWAYS a rule at our Table, that the DM suits challenges based on what the highest-powered character can throw out in a perfect round for them. The DM then throws CR and challenge appropriate creatures at them.

It's usually a pretty amusing discussion at the table when we are making characters, because someone will look at me and the DM and say "Oh dude! Look at this, it's awesome can I do this?" while pointing to some crazy spell or something like Gate (Always fun to watch new players learn that gate can be chained) usually I'll say "Happily, by wording it works like this, we can eithier put limits on it, or not that's your guy's choice." The Table will go silent for a minute as I sit there smiling and they usually shake their head and go "Naw, cause I know you'll kill us with it somehow, bastard"

While not always true, generally I play it by "If you optimize, I optimize" players are told this at the start of the game though, that if one of them is planning to power-game, then I have to throw appropriate challenges at them to challenge that person.

While I can agree on the flipside, that it's not the DM's job to kill their players (A fact some DMs overlook), it is their job to ensure that player's don't get to crazy, that's even stated in the DMG.

From Page 135 of the DMG
"Player Characters out of Control: Power can get out of hand. Power corrupts, PCs may do things that show their arrogance, or their contempt for those below them, as they advance in power. A 10th-level fighter, may feel that he no longer has to treat the duke with respect since he can single-handedly defeat all the duke's soldiers. A Powerful wizard might feel so unstoppable that she wantonly tosses around fireballs, in the middle of town. While it's fine for PCs to enjoy their abilities as they advance in level (That's the whole point), they shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they wish. Even high-level characters, shouldn't run about completely unchecked.
Players should always remember one fact: There's always someone more powerful. You should set up your word with the idea that the PCs, while special, are not unique. Other characters, many of them, quite powreful, have come along before the PCs, Institutions of influence have had to deal with individuals of great power long before the PCs. The duke may have some powerful warrior or fighter on retainer as a champion for when someone gets out of line. The city constabulary probably has a rod of negation or a scroll of antimagic field to deal with out of control wizards. The point is that NPCs with resources will be prepared for great danger. The sooner the PCs realize this, the less likey they will run amok in your campaign world.

Sometimes you have to remind players to bring themselves down to earth, that others are around, that their actions do affect a world, not just themselves, not just that singular battle. Reign players in, through the game. It's your job as a DM to do so, and make sure everyone is having fun equally.

As Tippy said with the assassin, it's true, let that assassin come, infact let a WEAKER assassin come. Make sure the party can kill it, put a note on it's body (Yay things that owuldn't happen with a real assassin because they aren't stupid, good thing this one is only level 6 or 7) saying that the PC in question is to be killed immediately for X crimes.

That will not only get your party thinking, it will open the gateway for more powerful assassins in the future, without it feeling as if you just sprung death on them for no good damn reason and no buildup.

[hymer]

Well, plenty of disagreement in here. Here's my view, for what it's worth:
You have a problem. Don't let it get to this next time, but for now you have to deal with it.

It seems what's preventing her from learning resource management is that the other guys are too dependent on her. If you make it feasible for them to proceed without her, they will (if needs be, tell the other players that it's ok to move on without her). My guess is she'll likely tag along in the background, but just won't have all that much to do. Now the spotlight gets to shine on the other guys.

So how do you make that possible? Well, tone down encounter CRs. If the other players are struggling, but she's blowing through enemies regardless, you might as well lower the difficulty. She'll still be blowing through them, but now they won't be struggling. More, lower CR encounters, with some time passing in between them to eat up spell durations (search checks, short treks, reading handouts, etc.).
You should also know her shtick by now. Maybe try to make some encounters where she can't solve the whole problem with her usual setup? Protection from Evil to keep out summons, lowered visibility to force people into melee, illusions to waste spell slots on offensive or defensive actions, traps on doors that her summons can't open. Not a lot of these, just maybe one or two of these per session.

Don't let this happen again. Next time you see a prospective PC, and your reaction is 'This is too powerful', have that be your answer: 'This is too powerful, you can't play this'. Don't go off on tangents about whales in the desert. :smallsmile:

Edit: And another thing, you can buff the other guys. Help them make better build choices, put loot that helps them stay alive without the problem player and/or helps them do something even in the encounters where she usually blows them all out of the water.

[ahenobarbi]

Did you talk to

Show the player that resource management is not optional. This means basically forcing more than one encounter a day.

Assassins visit at night can do this (but be very careful with that one - you don't want it to look like DM punishing player (the tricky part is: it is DM punishing a player)).

Time pressure is a good way to do it (just don't overdo it...).

Talk to other players. They shouldn't just agree to do whatever wizard tells them to. They can leave the slow wizard behind. Just remember to prepare encounters for 3-character party. Even if the wizard catches up next morning she will be significantly behind on XP and gp (why would party give her loot from monsters she didn't fight). This one may work but be careful (the player may decide to blame others for situation she doesn't like rather than seeing a problem with going nova).


There's also the bimodal/trimodal ambush. Someone I know changed their ways a lot as far as spell conservation on getting a couple of these.

They were in the desert, and over the next dune comes riding a group racing down at them at a full charge. Like clockwork, they tear into them with all their best spells and techniques! The warband's leader collapses in front of the group, mortally wounded. "Why.. are you fighting.. us..." and dies.
...And then, the massed forces of the BBEG's army boil over the top of the dune in hot pursuit of the first group...

I really like that one :smallamused:

[Shining Wrath]

The problem player may need to be banned from your table if they simply won't listen to the DM.

Setting that aside, make a house rule that every single creature on the planet has spell resistance. Mice have 20% SR. Flies have 20% SR. Orcs and kobolds have 25%. Dragons have whatever the MM lists for them, times two, plus 20%. And so on.

[ahenobarbi]

The problem player may need to be banned from your table if they simply won't listen to the DM.

Setting that aside, make a house rule that every single creature on the planet has spell resistance. Mice have 20% SR. Flies have 20% SR. Orcs and kobolds have 25%. Dragons have whatever the MM lists for them, times two, plus 20%. And so on.

You know such a houserule only makes problem escalate.

Also it doesn't help because summons are a thing (and schtick of the character IIRC).

[Shining Wrath]

Another idea is Newton's 3rd law extended to D&D: when you interact with the universe, the universe interacts with you.

If a PC is the most powerful thing the monsters have ever seen - a creature out of their nightmares, so to speak - word will get around. And some monsters will take that as a problem to be solved - to get the treasure, if no other reason.

"There's a powerful spell caster slaughtering her way through dungeons, looting monsters - and then sleeping in a Rope Trick to regain spells!"

Do you suppose that, e.g., a vampire might be able to counter that with a little planning? For example, invisible monsters waiting underneath the Rope Trick (which was located via divination) with instructions to wait for the mage to appear and then attack her, and only her? Anti-magic fields? Creatures that can scream so loudly that it causes deafness and interferes with all verbal components? Dimensional Anchor followed by grapple?

[strider24seven]

My 2 cp:

1st and foremost:
If a player is a problem, talk to the player outside of the game and attempt to fix the problem.

2nd and secondmost:
Don't play with people you don't like. If he's a persistent issue, kick him out. My rule #1 in life: Don't be a(n) [insert explicit word here]

3rd:
Despite the 1st and 2nd, I also agree with Tippy. There is nothing wrong with optimization, it's the player's playstyle that is the issue- which you can correct by changing the game so that he must either change his playstyle (not go nova), or die. However, for the whole Time Assassination thing, I recommend a simulacrum of the Wizard be sent back so that the party might have a chance of victory.

4th:
Bit of a tangent, but for all those arguing about Tippy's "railroading" and supposed DM arbitration:
From a low-level character's point of view, there is no meaningful difference between a high-level wizard and the DM. When you have less than 600 hp, the difference between a CL 50 RoS-uncapped Twinned Empowered Maximized Sculpted Widened Hail of Stone and "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies" is usually irrelevant at most.

[Story]

Also, I thought the main reason traps factored into so many TO scenarios is because unlike magic items they do NOT require any sort of GM approval to create.

Wish Traps and Teleport Through Time are firmly within the realm of TO and DM Fiat.


The real problem with Tippy's "solution" is that, from the players' perspective, it is indistinguishable from a DM fiat kill. They do not see any of the logic, preparation, warning, or reasoning behind it, and with nothing like this having ever happened before in their game, a typical player's first assumption is going to be that the assassin is a very thin disguise of what's really a "rocks fall" event. I would expect the player to react with a very quick and very angry accusation of an unfair DM fiat kill for no reason, and to be extremely difficult to convince after the fact that she is wrong. It could easily blow up into a full shouting rage match, quitting the group, and potentially even a broken friendship.

That's because it IS a DM Fiat Kill. The fact that you can kill them technically within the rules doesn't change that. You might as well put up a Greater Spell Glyph programmed to cast Maw of Chaos at the next Sorcerer it sees. Heck, that's a lot less cheesy than the IKEA Assassins idea.

[Shining Wrath]

You know such a houserule only makes problem escalate.

Also it doesn't help because summons are a thing (and schtick of the character IIRC).

It would be breaking D&D to oppose a broken PC, so not such a good idea.

In game consequences that make sense, then. Word has gotten around and the Forces of Evil (FOEs) know that they have to deal with her for their plans to succeed. See above for stuff a vampire might do.

[jedipilot24]

Getting back on topic, a way to prevent the wizard from novaing in 15 minutes is to encourage the player to take Reserve Feats. That way they can contribute to every encounter and now have a reason to not nova.

You could also take the Pathfinder approach and allow unlimited casting of Cantrips. One of the Nytemare Rewrites (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11013.msg377667)involves downgrading Magic Missile to a Cantrip.

[Zarrgon]

I play it by "If you optimize, I optimize".


This should be the way it is.

[Zerter]

I don't have a problem with people that disagree with Tippy. But if you don't understand what he is saying you should ask for clarification rather than draw your own (wrong) conclusions and tell Tippy what a mean bastard he is. Seriously, it's annoying and means you probably in general waste a lot of time and energy accomplishing nothing.

[strider24seven]

Actually- summons and animal companions are a great way to tax player resources.

For example, a 9th level wizard with 2 summoned Voor are counted as a 9th level wizard when calculating XP and treasure. So you can slow their progress to a crawl if they can only fight 1-2 encounters/day.

[Sudain]

1) You need to talk to the player. If they won't tone it done, you'll have to craft a couple specific encounters for them.

2) Learn the counter spell rules. If they are gaining power, then they are gaining reputation. A sorcery/cleric who focus on counter spelling would find pretty damn good work and pay working for whoever they pissed off. Illusions for defense(invisibility/image line, etc...) Only counter every second spell he casts to keep him on his toes.

3) If his level of TO is above everyone else, dominate or confuse him. Make the other players realize he's extremely strong and is a risk.

4) Time has consequences - if they don't make to their objectives in time, oh well for them.

[Grodech]

Once had a DM who got sick of the druid summoning monsters. He uses some sort of ward or counterspell that caused the summoned monsters to turn on the summoner. I can't think of the name offhand - I think it was a spell and you had to cast it on an area, but an enemy that's prepared could use it to make a summoner think twice about summoning anything again. IIRC, the druid barely survived the encounter, and wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the rest of the party.

[Karoht]

Question1: How is the Wizard burning so many spells per day whle the other two do don't?
Question2: The other two players have casting that can support the Wizard if used correctly, depending on what kind of enemy they are up against. Have you suggested that the other two do something to support the Wizard?

In my experience...
A Wizard running around trivializing encounters is going to make a name for ones self. Eventually, enemies who know how to fight Wizards will show up.

How to fight Wizards
-Be as scry/divination-proof as possible. Try to stop them from seeing you coming.
-Surprise. Yes, tricky use of divination can and will see through any and all ambushes, but if your player isn't that talented at using divination you can still use Surprise from time to time.
-Action economy (he can only Greater Celerity + Belt of Battle once), typically requiring preparation, readied actions, Immediate Actions, etc. Two casters working in concert and focusing on the Wizard (with tricks like Celerity up their sleeve as well, or the Arcane Fusion loop), will genuinely be a pain in the arse for 1 Wizard to handle.
-Abjuration can be remarkably annoying. Counterspelling or immunity to certain effects does somewhat limit what the Wizard can throw.
-Illusions for misdirection. If the Wizard wastes actions and resources on an illusion, you're probably ahead.
-Summons for misdirection. If the Wizard wastes actions and resources on summons, you're probably ahead.
-Send in the pawns. Give the Wizard a nice big distraction, maybe something to Nova and blow spells on. And when the Wizard is distracted/misdirected, hit hard and fast.
-Strength damage. Most Wizards use Strength as a dump stat, and have low Fort saves to boot. Strength damage poison is cheap and easy, 4 shots at 1D3 STR damage each is enough to drop the Wizard alone, nevermind more than one attacker using such a tactic.
-While we are on the topic of Strength, Sovereigns Glue can be a serious pain in the rear for Wizards to deal with. Sure, they have tools to get out of it, but you are again costing action economy and resources.
-Break line of sight/effect. Various cloud spells, Sleetstorm, Wall of Force, all excellent choices.
-Silence. Did the Wizard prepare Silent versions of all his/her spells? It might not outright prevent the Wizard from casting certain things, but it definitely limits options.
-Black Tentacles, or any solid grappler. Did the Wizard prepare Still versions of all his/her spells? If you can combo Silence + Grappling, chances are good that the Wizard didn't prepare Still and Silent versions of spells.

And in no particular order, my favorite NO buttons VS Wizards
-Pathfinder spell, Spit Venom. No save, no SR, just a ranged touch or be Blinded for a round. Fort save to prevent being poisoned. Conjuration spell. It is a 1 round no save Blind. While the Wizard isn't necessarily locked down, they aren't casting spells at the enemies, so the Wizard does lose the advantage.
-Meld with Stone + Project Image/Trickery Devotion. Cast the image first, them Meld with Stone. Cast spells from the Image/Devotion, likely force the Wizard to blow some resources just figuring out what is going on, locating which block of stone you are in, etc. Just try to pick a non-obvious place to Meld with the stone, and don't let the Wizard see it. Yes, Trueseeing and other illusion breakers trivialize it
-Transform yourself into an Earth elemental, or summon some. Why? Earthglide. They move through the ground. Have 5 of them spring out and try to grapple the Wizard, one at a time. Wizard will have difficulty targeting them due to broken line of effect, and you can virtually assure yourself a successful surprise. Yes, the Wizard likely has all day fly, if the Wizard isn't flying at the time or doesn't state that s/he is X feet off the ground, then hit them.
-Air elementals. Force a flyer out of the sky. Just ensure that they spread out well. Air elementals + Earth elementals in the hands of a clever caster can be a serious pain for a Wizard to deal with. Did the Wizard spend ranks on Fly? Then he might still be flying after 5 Air Elementals hit him with one of their effects. Or he might fall, take some damage, and be grounded. Or the Wizard might burn a resource to ignore this set of effects.
-Mortenkainen's Buzzing Bee + Any constant pain/damage effect such as acid. Have fun making high concentration checks every time you cast a spell with a -10 penalty.
-Shoot the wizard with a weapon enchanted with Phase Lock with poisoned ammo. Yes, the wizard has means to deal with ranged attacks such as shield and wind wall and other walls, but likely won't have those effects up in a surprise round.
-Spell Turning, Ring of Spell Battle, Rod of Absorbtion. All 3 are very effective at dealing with a Wizard run amok. Heck, just having 3 guys each with a Ring of Spell Battle fighting a Save or Die Wizard? That alone can make the Wizard think twice.

***Disclaimer***
In no way have I suggested any 100% effective tricks. Chances are you will need a handful of them, all at once, to challenge or even kill a Wizard who is walking around out in the open. And an encounter like that is kind of a targeted attack on the player, not just the character.
However, such an attack can be designed around the rest of the party contributing and mitigating the threats. And as those threats escalate, it could potentially encourage other players in the party to optimize differently/better, or just go about their business in a more prepared manner.
In no way am I suggesting that you should lay a trap targeted around attacking the Wizard, only to have the rest of the party bail him out, though that is a likely effect.

Also consider that if the Wizard and party are forced to retreat, that still counts as a win. You challenged the party, they were forced to concede that challenge.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If the problem is that the wizard novas too much, you could try to address that directly by putting her on a pseudo-encounter casting schedule: Cut the wizard's spells per day to 1/4 normal and lower the refresh time from 8 hours' rest + 1 hour prep time to 2 hours' rest + 15 minutes' prep time. That should rein in her nova power and might (hopefully) persuade her to ration out her spells better.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.