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The Giant
2006-11-14, 01:45 PM
New comic is up.

This is the end of the Miko/Xykon story...next comic will be Wednesday night, and then we'll be back to three-a-week from then on.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-11-14, 01:48 PM
Redcloak doubling over in laughter...
"Quest buy" ("how ragtag are we talking?")
"Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage"...

Too much.

Wulfric
2006-11-14, 01:48 PM
Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage - thank you, Giant. I rolled around after that one!

And is it just my perception, or is there more of an equal balance between :xykon: and :redcloak:?

Cheers,
Wulfric

SteveMB
2006-11-14, 01:49 PM
"Widescreen Crystal Ball" and guarantee -- LOL!

Om
2006-11-14, 01:50 PM
Xykon's really getting into James Bond villian mode isn't he? Perhaps something to do with the new film out? :smallwink:

TinSoldier
2006-11-14, 01:50 PM
Confusing, but funny. I don't understand why they wanted to let Miko escape after going to the trouble of destroying those orbs.

Wait a minute... does he mean to scry in on her? And by extension the whole of Azure City and the location of the gate? :eek:

rellyjean
2006-11-14, 01:51 PM
My jaw is hanging open. I completely didn't see that coming.

I doff my hat to you, Rich. Nicely done.

And seeing :xykon:'s eyes pop into circles when :redcloak: asked about the hobgoblins? PRICELESS.

(Quest Buy. QUEST BUY. Win.)

Barazon
2006-11-14, 01:52 PM
The widescreen crystal ball is awesome, as is "the look on your skull". But "won't some of the hobgoblins die" is right up there with "Sacrificing minions... is there any problem it CAN'T solve?!"

Calsan
2006-11-14, 01:52 PM
Wow, great fix on the forcecage issue ;) . Great Comic.
And it seems that even BEBG's need insurance

Erloas
2006-11-14, 01:53 PM
That was, once again, amazingly fantastic. And I thought it would be silly to check for a new comic at noon.

I wonder if that crystal ball is HD ready, I think it needs to be, supervillians don't cut corners on things like that.

Guzame
2006-11-14, 01:53 PM
Won't some of the hobglobins die?
Priceless :)

Margerine A Low Fat Cannibal
2006-11-14, 01:54 PM
Hahaha, Take THAT DnD Rules Lawyers!
XD

Instant win.

Mirage_of_Deceit
2006-11-14, 01:54 PM
Wow great comic Rich I havent laughed like that in quite a while

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-11-14, 01:55 PM
"How ragtag are we talking here?"

Wow, Xylon really does consider :mitd: to be incompetent.

I bet Xylon is just planning to use his invading army as a distraction so he can get at the gate. Or maybe he has access to Spells Of Mass Destruction that make it easier to take out a garrison on city walls instead of dispersed throughout a city?

Oh, it seems that the OotS is going to be meeting with Miko after all! It's going to be a doozy explaining how Belkar isn't in jail.

TMTree
2006-11-14, 01:56 PM
That comic was unbelievably funny- a great way to end the run of bonus strips. Why would you ever want a normal-shaped crystal ball when there is a widescreen version?

Looking forward to finding out what will happen to Elan though...

Grumpy_Frenchman
2006-11-14, 01:56 PM
Absolutely priceless comic! ^_^

Thank you thank you thank you!

Malekith
2006-11-14, 01:57 PM
LOL

:redcloak: wont some of the hobgoblins die from exhaustion?
:xykon: (pause)
:redcloak: (pause)
:redcloak: & :xykon: (Insane laughter)

H.M._Murdock
2006-11-14, 01:58 PM
I can't help but snicker at everyone who whined about that forcecage spell. :smallbiggrin: Brilliant.

Wrecan
2006-11-14, 01:59 PM
I don't understand why they wanted to let Miko escape after going to the trouble of destroying those orbs.

Wait a minute... does he mean to scry in on her? And by extension the whole of Azure City and the location of the gate? :eek:


Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.

TinSoldier
2006-11-14, 02:00 PM
Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.Yeah, it just took me a minute to figure it out, while I was posting.

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-11-14, 02:01 PM
Quest Buy.
Best. Pun. EVER!

Wrecan
2006-11-14, 02:01 PM
A thought about those hairs...

If they are Windstriker's hairs, might Xykon not end up spying on Windstriker in pari delicto? I wonder what he does in his off-time, other than eating Heavenly OatsTM

Behold_the_Void
2006-11-14, 02:01 PM
Some great jokes down the board. The Quest Buy probably amused me the most though.

themunck
2006-11-14, 02:03 PM
Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.

queted for truth. Also, this lines up for some less explaination from OOTSes side

sun_tzu
2006-11-14, 02:03 PM
Holy crud...I guess there is a reason Xykon's become such a threat with time.
He can be smart when he needs to.
Oh, and REdcloak, as always, rules.

fwiffo
2006-11-14, 02:04 PM
Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.

Reminds me of the old Wizardry game...

When playing Crusaders of the Dark Savant (one of Wizardry games), the BBEG was kinda doing what I think Xykon is doing. Let the adventurers discover the "item" and then pop in and take it. The adventureres did all the dirty work and BBEG was just watching them till they found the prize. And since they weren't expecting that, there was no time and no chance to protect it.

And anyone who will tell me that Giant doesn't read the forums and doesn't provide clarifications for things that people find objectionable is full of it.

iop
2006-11-14, 02:04 PM
Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.
However, they're going to destroy the gate once again, so Xykon has to find yet another gate to attack

Awesome comic.

Arancaytar
2006-11-14, 02:05 PM
Did Xykon's plan depend on Miko conveniently leaving her cloak and litter lying around?

I was rolling after the Moderately Escapable Forcecage, but this bugged me somehow. Surely he can't be *that* lucky and foolish...

ref
2006-11-14, 02:06 PM
What's with Quest Buy? Are we being hit by American-Centric Puns again?

That was a nice series of strips, now let's see how not-Nale (not Nale) is doing :)

Max_Sinister
2006-11-14, 02:06 PM
Now I'm curious about Roy & Nale. Wednesday we'll know...

xv bones
2006-11-14, 02:07 PM
Yes. When Miko warns of the invasion, Xykon figures all the Sapphire Guard paladins -- including Miko -- will be ordered to guard the gate. Then he can scry on Miko to determine where the gate is. Then he can go there. What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.

Except that OOTS won't be there. They're going towards the dead-bang wrong gate.

Alex Star
2006-11-14, 02:07 PM
I think the Hair was just a bonus... I'm sure that there was plenty of her BLOOD laying around after her fight with Redcloak...

Om
2006-11-14, 02:08 PM
Did Xykon's plan depend on Miko conveniently leaving her cloak and litter lying around?

I was rolling after the Moderately Escapable Forcecage, but this bugged me somehow. Surely he can't be *that* lucky and foolish...Judging from his reaction it looks like the hairs were a plus. Perhaps they make his job easier?

XtheYeti
2006-11-14, 02:09 PM
Excelent Giant, masterfully done, "Look on your skull" is a work of art

Nazzo, the 102nd
2006-11-14, 02:10 PM
I must say that The Giant said in the news page that this story arc would be covered in "probably in 5-6 strips". He did 9. Makes me wonder if he reads the forum... Or not.

Why do I have this feeling that The Giant is always a step ahead of us? :smallwink:

On to the spoilerish comments:

Yes, yes, Miko will reach Azure City, OotS will be there. She will scan "Elan" with Detect Evil, think that the "magical shield" against this ability of hers wore off, and also think that they were there to destroy Soon's Gate.

Wait. Miko will meet Nale! Ha!

PePe QuiCoSE
2006-11-14, 02:10 PM
nice detail of 1000gp on the telescope =)

i don't know quite why, but now i want xykon to succeed in it's mission to conquer de world :D

Nostrabel
2006-11-14, 02:12 PM
:grin: I must say that when I read what redcloack said about the hobgoblins, I had the same look on my face than Xykon... Almost made me cry laughing.

Toper
2006-11-14, 02:12 PM
Wow, awesome comic. Rich has been amazingly productive lately. Love the 1000gp price tag. :)


Did Xykon's plan depend on Miko conveniently leaving her cloak and litter lying around?

I was rolling after the Moderately Escapable Forcecage, but this bugged me somehow. Surely he can't be *that* lucky and foolish...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm
You can't scry a subject unless she fails her Will save. Xykon's meeting Miko negates the usual +10 bonus for being scryed on by a total stranger. The hair isn't strictly necessary, but it does give an additional -10 penalty to the save. So yeah, Xykon has made some sharp moves here; his plan would have had a good chance of success even without the hair, but it helps rather a lot.

WampaX
2006-11-14, 02:12 PM
nice detail of 1000gp on the telescope =)

i don't know quite why, but now i want xykon to succeed in it's mission to conquer de world :D

Probably because it is one of the most ridiculously overpriced mundane items and Redcloak, being the frugal goblin that he is, will be returning it, thus he needs to keep the price tag on it.

J.Gellert
2006-11-14, 02:13 PM
I laughed SO MUCH with Xykon and Redcloak! Together with them!

Priceless! Best strip in a long time.

You made my day Giant
:smile:

xv bones
2006-11-14, 02:13 PM
I think the Hair was just a bonus... I'm sure that there was plenty of her BLOOD laying around after her fight with Redcloak...

Not to mention her friggin' horse coming crashing down on her head...

Winged One
2006-11-14, 02:14 PM
Well, Redcloak sure does lay the praise on when it's deserved...

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-14, 02:14 PM
My jaw is hanging open. I completely didn't see that coming.

I doff my hat to you, Rich. Nicely done.

And seeing :xykon:'s eyes pop into circles when :redcloak: asked about the hobgoblins? PRICELESS.

(Quest Buy. QUEST BUY. Win.)
I didn't see it coming either, which really stings because I totally should have. I'm doing the same friggin' thing in one of my games right now. :smallamused:

Edna
2006-11-14, 02:18 PM
What's with Quest Buy? Are we being hit by American-Centric Puns again?

Best Buy is an American chain of stores. They sell electronics, computers, & appliances.

Edna

Sebastian
2006-11-14, 02:18 PM
Judging from his reaction it looks like the hairs were a plus. Perhaps they make his job easier?

Exactly, see how he is saying "and now that I've meet her..." before he see the hair. The hair are just a nice bonus to the scry check.

Man, today Xykon gain 100 villain points. and Rick 1000 kudos points, i'll never doubt you again, mr. Burlew.

pataphysics
2006-11-14, 02:22 PM
this is my favorite comic this far just because it made the people whining about forcecage look so utterly foolish. i mean, more than they already did.

Bor the Barbarian Monk
2006-11-14, 02:22 PM
Oh ye of little faith!

The debate on force cages was locked, and I didn't get the chance to rag on myself for getting involved in it after 176 was released. But this leads to that which I seem to have forgotten. Y'see, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Rich is a master who knows his craft well, and will craft his tale appropriately to satisfy the story first and his readers second. Or is it readers first and story second? Or is it both at the same time? Or, for that matter, neither? I...

Y'know what?

...

Great strip, Rich! Thanks for the laughs! :smallbiggrin:

Conqueso
2006-11-14, 02:24 PM
And is it just my perception, or is there more of an equal balance between :xykon: and :redcloak:?

I think that's a fair assesment of the situation. Keep in mind, it is Redcloak that is the supreme leader of the hobgoblin army. Xykon is the more powerful spellcaster, but Redcloak is up there as well. At this point its more of a senior and junior partner arrangement then a master/underling relationship.

Hyrael
2006-11-14, 02:25 PM
Xykon's really getting into James Bond villian mode isn't he? Perhaps something to do with the new film out? :smallwink:
No, the whole point of this comic was to show that xykon is NOT Dr. Evil. He intended for miko to escape from the faultry forcecage (thus explaining to you whiners who say, ala Morbo, "Forcecage Does Not Work That Way!"). By letting miko go, he looses nothing and gains a window into azure city. (he has no idea that she is a significant NPC and will probably cause a great deal of trouble for him in the upcoming batter. For all he knows, letting her live has no downside.)

Another point is that xykon is bored out of his skull. the thing about being an immortal lich is that most opportunities come around again eventually, and if this attack on the gate fails, he can move on and come back in a century or two with some other plan. the gates arent going anywhere. so, he can afford to have some fun. It like playing half life 2. you could just use the best weapons for each firefight, and get through the level without dieing, but you might as well do those crazy gravity gun tricks that are so fun to try, even if they dont work. because, if you screw up or happen to fail, you just restart at your last save point.

evnafets
2006-11-14, 02:30 PM
I guess Xykon's new body regenerated with a better set of lungs than the previous. His evil laugh is pretty good. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html

chibibar
2006-11-14, 02:33 PM
Woo hoo :) Nicely done rich :) this again proves that we can make/modify any spells/item/whatever to see fit :)

I wanna go to Quest Buy!! :)

Om
2006-11-14, 02:36 PM
No, the whole point of this comic was to show that xykon is NOT Dr. Evil. He intended for miko to escape from the faultry forcecage (thus explaining to you whiners who say, ala Morbo, "Forcecage Does Not Work That Way!"). By letting miko go, he looses nothing and gains a window into azure city. (he has no idea that she is a significant NPC and will probably cause a great deal of trouble for him in the upcoming batter. For all he knows, letting her live has no downside.)Oh I understand the logic behind the plan but it does seem unnecessarily convoluted for my liking. The whole "place the enemy in an easily escapable prison and then turn around in order to allow them to escape" could have been taken straight from the pages of an Ian Fleming novel (in between the sadism and martinis).

Personally I'd be more in favour of a "Crush Azure City into tiny bits and then sort through the rubble to find the gate" approach :smallbiggrin:

As an aside, I've just realised that we have a full blown paladin v goblin battle looming in the near future. I can't wait to see how the Giant manages this one.

Edit: For all the non-Americans, "Quest Buy" = ?

Erathia
2006-11-14, 02:36 PM
I think the Hair was just a bonus... I'm sure that there was plenty of her BLOOD laying around after her fight with Redcloak...

Actually there would probably only be minimal amounts of blood from that fight, Redcloak doesn't appear to use a weapon, only his spells, razor-sharp wit and the ability to judge when a battle is lost and fleeing is the best option.

I wonder if Xykon'll adopt him as the son he never had, and can't have any more since anything remotely resembling a biology has been sacrificed for the bliss of undeath.

Adder
2006-11-14, 02:38 PM
Why oh why do I get the urge to make a Readcloak-Plushie?

Great strip, and he even got me for a second :cool:

Shatteredtower
2006-11-14, 02:41 PM
Well played, Giant. Well... played.

Not that I should be surprised, but it's always nice to see questions that come up answered later on in a story, whether or not you already had that answer ready before the question came. (Since I can't tell, I assume you usually do.)

Cifer
2006-11-14, 02:45 PM
Actually there would probably only be minimal amounts of blood from that fight, Redcloak doesn't appear to use a weapon, only his spells, razor-sharp wit and the ability to judge when a battle is lost and fleeing is the best option.
Depends on what spells he has been using. It hasn't been detailed what kind of damage the inflict family does - I prefer it in the "he's perfectly healthy - except that he's dead..." kind, but I know others think it rips open wounds in the same way cure closes them. Anyway, I'd say meeting her would be enough for him to overcome her Will save - she's only got her charisma and her few monk levels working for her there, so the hair is indeed only a nice bonus.

DaMullet
2006-11-14, 02:49 PM
Hahaha.... Post-Paladin paste... Alliteration is always funny.

Alfryd
2006-11-14, 02:52 PM
New comic is up.
Good, good... uh, question.

How in the nine hells does a footsoldier army outpace a cavalry unit going full tilt over the same terrain and interval?

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage
Miko is *really* going to wish she put some ranks in spellcraft.


...does he mean to scry in on her? And by extension the whole of Azure City and the location of the gate?
Yes, that's rather the point of the strip. It's not a spoiler.

What Xykon is not expecting is that OOTS will be there as well... to foil Xykon's plans yet again.

Except that OOTS won't be there. They're going towards the dead-bang wrong gate.
Correct. They teleported in to Azure City yesterday, and only expected to take a half a day on the Nale sidequest. They've jumped out again.

Erathia
2006-11-14, 02:56 PM
Depends on what spells he has been using. It hasn't been detailed what kind of damage the inflict family does - I prefer it in the "he's perfectly healthy - except that he's dead..." kind, but I know others think it rips open wounds in the same way cure closes them. Anyway, I'd say meeting her would be enough for him to overcome her Will save - she's only got her charisma and her few monk levels working for her there, so the hair is indeed only a nice bonus.

Hard to say. It's likely she has at least 14 Wisdom so tha she can cast, and "A few" levels of Monk would give her either +3 or +4 to Will Save. Given that Charisma is a measure of force of character, which is clearly something she has in spades (no one says it has to be positive), that's maybe a +2 or +3 her Will Save wouldn't be great but it wouldn't be easy.

I'd imagined that since Inflict Wounds channels negative energy, I'd say you're right that it would enhance existing wounds but I'd picture most of the damage being internal.

PhoenixRising
2006-11-14, 02:59 PM
Ha, brilliant! I love it. I love the idea about Windstriker.

By the way, how old is this? We're only up to page 2... and I started page 3

Erathia
2006-11-14, 02:59 PM
Correct. They teleported in to Azure City yesterday, and only expected to take a half a day on the Nale sidequest. They've jumped out again.

I don't think they would "jump out" because that would imply Shojo is lending them a wizard to go to the gate, which his Paladins would flip out of they found out about.

Also remember that Sabine is flying to Azure City in "two or three days", so Nale is likely going to try and keep them there at least that long.

Om
2006-11-14, 03:02 PM
Also remember that Sabine is flying to Azure City in "two or three days", so Nale is likely going to try and keep them there at least that long.
Remind me why they're visiting Azire City in the first place.

Alfryd
2006-11-14, 03:05 PM
I don't think they would "jump out" because that would imply Shojo is lending them a wizard to go to the gate, which his Paladins would flip out of they found out about.
Didn't stop them last time.

...remember that Sabine is flying to Azure City in "two or three days", so Nale is likely going to try and keep them there at least that long.
Good point. Then again, Nale did not know they were on an urgent errand of global importance at the time.

Wrecan
2006-11-14, 03:06 PM
Did Xykon's plan depend on Miko conveniently leaving her cloak and litter lying around?
No. Having met her, spoken to her, kind of gotten to know her, Xykon has a reasonably certain chance of scrying her. Finding her stuff is just bonus.

armatil
2006-11-14, 03:12 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

otherwise, it's again more lovely oots goodness. the bad guys are actually responsible for more laughs-per-appearance than the good guys. ("you should've seen the look on yor skull"... priceless)

Martok
2006-11-14, 03:21 PM
Awesome strip Giant! There were so many jokes and funny lines in this one, I wouldn't even know where to begin. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and Xykon deliberately allowing Miko to escape so she'll (unwittingly) lead him directly to the gate? Brilliant! I confess I didn't see that coming at all. :smallcool:

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-14, 03:23 PM
::sheepish::

from me:

"I hope that Rich has a good idea for why this happened and will reveal it in a strip or two -- that way when I read the strip again from start to finish for the 5th time in 3 or 4 months I won't even notice the 'flaw.'"

Forgive my lack of faith, O Giant One.

:redcloak: [Mrs. Lovejoy's Voice] Won't somebody think of the Hobgoblins!? [\Mrs. Lovejoy's Voice]

Haar

Erathia
2006-11-14, 03:27 PM
Didn't stop them last time.

Yes but last time they weren't engaged in a mission related to the gate, so no one would care.


Remind me why they're visiting Azire City in the first place.
Well they had to return the wizard, and maybe Cliffport was in the opposite direction of where they wanted to go so it saves a bit of time?

I dunno, I feel like if I speculate too deply Roy will show off his "Moderately Redundant Travelling Plan" and be made a fool of

Lemmingboy
2006-11-14, 03:29 PM
Yay! Redcloak is more evil than EVER BEFORE!

Alfryd
2006-11-14, 03:34 PM
Yes but last time they weren't engaged in a mission related to the gate, so no one would care.
Yes they were, or at least that's what they told Shojo ('pursuing a known accomplice of Xykon,) so they'd have as much cause to care.

..it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far...
I think it is *probable* that Rich had intended all along Xykon would deliberately allow Miko escape, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Gamaliel_the_Bard
2006-11-14, 03:36 PM
Om asked
Quote "Edit: For all the non-Americans, "Quest Buy" = ?"

"Quest Buy" = "Best Buy" a chain of Home Electronics store in the U.S..

This strip has to be one of my top 10 Favorites of OoTS which didn't feature our Main character Heros.

"But Sir, won't some of the Hobgoblins drop dead from exhaustion?"

The following laughter that was next was Priceless.

Sereno
2006-11-14, 03:37 PM
Heh, heh, heh ... I love it that The Giant stays one step ahead of the Rules Lawyers who haunt the forums ... I don't think he's ever actually broken a DnD "rule"!

The "pause" frame was awesome ... both of them waiting to see who's going to start laughing, first!!!

pataphysics
2006-11-14, 03:40 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far...

initially i thought, you know, "HAHA TAKE THAT." but in retrospect i think i agree with your sentiment. it would have been way funnier to just make them deal with it.

ObadiahtheSlim
2006-11-14, 03:42 PM
lol Quest Buy

Solara
2006-11-14, 03:55 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

Eh? I don't really see how it could be a response the the forums, since Miko making it back to Azure City is something that Xykon was counting on. If a standard forcecage has a reputation for being impossible to escape (which it obviously does, judging by all the ranting on the forums) why would he have used it in the first place? It's a major plot point, not something like a throwaway remark by Thor that may or may not have been him tossing a bone to the fans. Unless you honestly think Rich would rewrite the entire plot of the next couple of arcs, not to mention the battle in Azure City to shut up a few complainers?

Seriously, there is speculation about everything on the forums. Anything the characters do, they're fulfilling someone's predictions. It's impossible to avoid.

And the forcecage revelation also answers a major question of mine, as to why Xykon went back for the army instead of just killing her right then and there. At the time I wrote it off as being there simply because it was necessary for the plot, even if it did annoy me a little, but it makes a lot more sense now. I should have known there was a reason for it.

Anyway, there were way too many funny moments in today's strip, and I don't have time to list them all, but I just have to say that no matter how many times I read it, that expression Xykon has in the sixth panel makes me LOL. :biggrin: I've seen that exact same look on my friend's faces when they're trying really hard not to laugh about something, I'm constantly amazed by how clearly Rich can express emotion with these little stick figures, even when all he has is a grinning skull to work with.

Miklus
2006-11-14, 03:57 PM
"Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage"...I am in awe.

And I thought :mitd: was going to be yelled at for letting :miko: escape.

I thought Miko was going to save Azure city, but now it seems she has doomed the multiverse by leading Xykon to the gate...by no fault of her own.

Just wait 'til Miko sees Belkar out of jail...and if she ever cast "Detect Evil" on Nale, her head will explode. I bet he is more evil than ANY of the other villains, even Sabrine. Just look how many random people he has killed personally. Xykon likes to sacrifice minions, but Nale uses named NPCs like disposable towels :)

sklar dansig
2006-11-14, 04:05 PM
wont some hobgoblins die?
priceless :D

Hyrael
2006-11-14, 04:08 PM
Oh I understand the logic behind the plan but it does seem unnecessarily convoluted for my liking. The whole "place the enemy in an easily escapable prison and then turn around in order to allow them to escape" could have been taken straight from the pages of an Ian Fleming novel (in between the sadism and martinis).

Personally I'd be more in favour of a "Crush Azure City into tiny bits and then sort through the rubble to find the gate" approach :smallbiggrin:

As an aside, I've just realised that we have a full blown paladin v goblin battle looming in the near future. I can't wait to see how the Giant manages this one.

Edit: For all the non-Americans, "Quest Buy" = ?


Yes, but thats boring. for both the readers and the dark lord. Im going to start a separate thread on this topic

Overelemental
2006-11-14, 04:09 PM
Excellent spell name, Xykon is an awesome villain. Well done again mr Giant :)

Felinoid
2006-11-14, 04:17 PM
Ohhhhh, I was laughing along with the Evil Ones on the hobgoblins, and "the look on your skull" got me going again. :smallbiggrin: The "Quest Buy" bit seemed a little too "Family Guy" tacked-on, but it was decent.

And of course I must add a "ye of little faith" for the people that argued about Forcecage for 7 pages. :smallwink:

iop
2006-11-14, 04:28 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

Either the Giant has blundered the forcecage and fixed it by claiming it was in Xykon's plan all along, or it really was Xykon's plan all along and he put the forcecage out there to mess with the minds of the rules-lawyers.
I tend to think it was the latter.

Pantler
2006-11-14, 04:32 PM
Meh. If I was Xykon, instead of buing a widescreen crystal ball, I'd buy a a flatscreen one :smallbiggrin:
Big applause for reference to the forum discussion about Forcecage. An interactive comic... The future is now! :elan:

Solmage
2006-11-14, 04:36 PM
Hahahahhahah!

And I loved this series!!!

Aliquid
2006-11-14, 04:37 PM
Unless you honestly think Rich would rewrite the entire plot of the next couple of arcs, not to mention the battle in Azure City to shut up a few complainers? You know.... it is possible that Rich deliberately put the force cage situation in the strip because he *knew* it would get the ranting rules lawyers on these boards upset.

He had various options for deciding how Xykon would pretend to trap Miko while really wanting her to escape… but he specifically decided to use a manipulated spell so it would get certain posters all worked up. Just to torture them

I am probably wrong with this theory, but it amuses me to think it might be true.

Aliquid
2006-11-14, 04:38 PM
Meh. If I was Xykon, instead of buing a widescreen crystal ball, I'd buy a a flatscreen one :smallbiggrin:That would just be a mirror of scrying...

Finwe
2006-11-14, 04:38 PM
The giant knows his D&D stuff very well. I find it hard to believe that he doesn't forsee when it is a good idea to put a clarifacation into the next comic as to what happened when someone bent the rules.

Varian7
2006-11-14, 04:49 PM
The "Won't some of the Hobgoblins die". and "Quest Buy" jokes were priceless. This makes it into my top 10!

Itdano
2006-11-14, 04:56 PM
Miko = pwned

She got played. Every step of the way. This is why Xykon is my favorite villain.

Athelgar
2006-11-14, 05:13 PM
Just to add another point. Rich clearly knew what he was doing with the forecage. I think its slightly obvious that Rich plans these strips rather far into the furture. Now, Xykon left behind the Mitd to prevent her from escapeing. Now why would he do that if he knew very well the forecage was flawed and escapeable?

armatil
2006-11-14, 05:15 PM
Either the Giant has blundered the forcecage and fixed it by claiming it was in Xykon's plan all along, or it really was Xykon's plan all along and he put the forcecage out there to mess with the minds of the rules-lawyers.
I tend to think it was the latter.

hm. you (and others) make a persuasive argument. still, it's not the first time i got this feeling about some element in the comic, and to give the "benefit of the doubt" in all these cases... no. i'm pretty sure the forum discussions sneak their way into the comics. the request to put any predictions about OotS in [spoiler]s was made to reduce this effect at least to some extent, but in my opinion, it's not enough, as the effect is still there, albeit maybe subtler.

on the other hand, no-one (except probably the man himself) can tell for certain whether it has a negative effect on the giant's creative process and comic output (it's a subjective thing), but it's been bothering me for a while now. i just thought i'd toss it up when the appropriate time came, and see if i'd get flamed over it... ;) i'm also pretty curious as to what rich' own thoughts are on this point, even though it's really none of my business...

so anyway. i guess i made my point clear. :)

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 05:21 PM
Hahaha, Take THAT DnD Rules Lawyers!
XD

Verily. Allow me to chortle for a second:

<points and laughs> HA HA![/Nelson]

There, I'm done.


meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

<le sigh>:smallsigh: I guess it's not possible to please everyone, eh?


nice detail of 1000gp on the telescope =)

i don't know quite why, but now i want xykon to succeed in it's mission to conquer de world :D

That's the case with all well written villains. It's a part of their panache. :smallwink:


Miko = pwned

She got played. Every step of the way. This is why Xykon is my favorite villain.

Well, naturally. He is a mastermind type supervillain, after all. (And why should Nale get all the fun in that regard?) :smallwink: Anyway, what was she supposed to do? Not go and warn Azure city? She didn't really have any options available to her but following Xykon's plan.

warmachine
2006-11-14, 05:21 PM
The risk with Xykon's plan is the Sapphire Guard continuously using Obsure Object on the gate. Now, though this blocks even indirect scrying, a nearby, unprotected person in view could still blurt its presence. However, this can be defeated with secrecy procedures that assume scrying, in the same way that armies use procedures to guard secrets. Detect Scrying is also useful as a countermeasure. This requires discipline throughout the organisation and employing staff wizards, but loyalty, discipline and organisation is what the stick-up-his-back founder of the Guard believed in.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 05:24 PM
Just to add another point. Rich clearly knew what he was doing with the forecage. I think its slightly obvious that Rich plans these strips rather far into the furture. Now, Xykon left behind the Mitd to prevent her from escapeing. Now why would he do that if he knew very well the forecage was flawed and escapeable?

Because then the Sapphire Guard might get suspicious, and install precautions of the kind warmachine mentions above. The escape had to be challenging.


The risk with Xykon's plan is the Sapphire Guard continuously using Obsure Object on the gate. Now, though this blocks even indirect scrying, a nearby, unprotected person in view could still blurt its presence. However, this can be defeated with secrecy procedures that assume scrying, in the same way that armies use procedures to guard secrets. Detect Scrying is also useful as a countermeasure. This requires discipline throughout the organisation and employing staff wizards, but loyalty, discipline and organisation is what the stick-up-his-back founder of the Guard believed in.

They can still scry on her for a considerable amout of time before such precautions would be effective, and this would provide some measure of information about the defences as well as the location of the gate - if nothing else, it could provide information indirectly: Xykon knows that such and such an area is warded, hence the gate is roughly in that area. Itwould be better than nothing, even if limited.

smellie_hippie
2006-11-14, 05:37 PM
Tee hee hee!

Excellent wordplay between :redcloak: and:xykon:. The puns were pun-tastic! And I'd also like to add... um, nothing! Great comic Giant! I look forward to returning to our ragtag adventurers tomorrow, but nothing lost in the interrum! :smallbiggrin:

Taelas
2006-11-14, 05:38 PM
This has probably been mentioned already, but here's the reason why Xykon finds the hair a bonus:

Scrying allows a Will save. If you have only heard of the subject, they get a bonus to their Will save. If you have first-hand knowledge, they get no bonus. Xykon arranged the meeting to set-up the Scrying in the first place.

If you also have something of theirs in your possession, their Will save receives a -4 penalty. The hair on Miko's cloak makes the Scrying much, much easier.


Either the Giant has blundered the forcecage and fixed it by claiming it was in Xykon's plan all along, or it really was Xykon's plan all along and he put the forcecage out there to mess with the minds of the rules-lawyers.
I tend to think it was the latter.
QFT.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-11-14, 05:41 PM
Confusing, but funny. I don't understand why they wanted to let Miko escape after going to the trouble of destroying those orbs.

Wait a minute... does he mean to scry in on her? And by extension the whole of Azure City and the location of the gate? :eek:

It's like what the Klingons did to Geordi in "Generations!"

Sliverghost
2006-11-14, 05:51 PM
My jaw is hanging open. I completely didn't see that coming.

I doff my hat to you, Rich. Nicely done.

And seeing :xykon:'s eyes pop into circles when :redcloak: asked about the hobgoblins? PRICELESS.

(Quest Buy. QUEST BUY. Win.)


I still cant stop laughing about that :redcloak: " u should have seen the look on ur skull":redcloak: " Wont some of the hobogoblins die?" man this gets funner every day...well the everday is soon to be vaild :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smallsigh: :sigh: :frown: :eek: :furious:

warmachine
2006-11-14, 05:54 PM
They can still scry on her [Miko] for a considerable amout of time before such precautions [anti-scrying procedures and spells] would be effective, and this would provide some measure of information about the defences as well as the location of the gate - if nothing else, it could provide information indirectly: Xykon knows that such and such an area is warded, hence the gate is roughly in that area. It would be better than nothing, even if limited.

That depends how good their secrecy procedures and personnel are. Returning personnel could be screened with a Detect Scrying near the city gates and any 'contaminated' guards are quarantined till the scrying is broken. Routine screening and other anti-scrying procedures is a lot of work but Lawful organisations tend to think like this. There's a good chance the Sapphire Guard do this, making Xykon's plan is risky.

wowy319
2006-11-14, 05:55 PM
I think that, in all honesty, xykon will completely and utterly wipe the floor with the sapphire guard. He's going to win most of it by sheer weight of numbers (plus his own strength), but something's gonna stop him before he gets to the gate (most likely the OoTS). Just a feeling, really.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 06:00 PM
That depends how good their secrecy procedures and personnel are. Returning personnel could be screened with a Detect Scrying near the city gates and any 'contaminated' guards are quarantined till the scrying is broken. Routine screening and other anti-scrying procedures is a lot of work but Lawful organisations tend to think like this. There's a good chance the Sapphire Guard do this, making Xykon's plan is risky.

Certainly it is risky, though there is the chance it will pay off. One paladin more or less is not going to affect the defences that much (even if she is high-level), and with the force march option, Azure City won't gain that much of an extra advance warning anyway: this being the very last watchtower. It's not as though tens of thousands of hobgoblins could have remained udetected all the way to the city gates, after all.


I think that, in all honesty, xykon will completely and utterly wipe the floor with the sapphire guard. He's going to win most of it by sheer weight of numbers (plus his own strength), but something's gonna stop him before he gets to the gate (most likely the OoTS). Just a feeling, really.

A fantasy supervillain fist winning through sheer weight of numbers of his minions against the professional "good guy" army - and then being defeated by an small band of unlikely heroes? Surely not! :smalltongue:

Solmage
2006-11-14, 06:04 PM
Either the Giant has blundered the forcecage and fixed it by claiming it was in Xykon's plan all along, or it really was Xykon's plan all along and he put the forcecage out there to mess with the minds of the rules-lawyers.
I tend to think it was the latter.

yes, I very much doubt he's changing the stories based on the forums. He's simply setting up people up to fall for obvious traps. "Gee, wonder how many people will say control weather can't do that. Heh, I'd like to see their faces when they see the next comic.."

People, of course, being the predictable obnoxious rules lawyers that they are, easily fall for it, and then actually claim that he modified the story because of it, without realizing exactly how incredibly predictable their responses are.

Wulfmaster
2006-11-14, 06:17 PM
Did Xykon's plan depend on Miko conveniently leaving her cloak and litter lying around?

I was rolling after the Moderately Escapable Forcecage, but this bugged me somehow. Surely he can't be *that* lucky and foolish...

Actually, the "moderately escapable forcecage" only prevents clothing from passing through. The original plan was to have Miko leave her clothes in a pile inside the cage and walk out "unhindered", accomplishing two things. 1) Giving all the Miko fanboys a thrill and 2) leaving behind some hair/personal object to target the Scry.

As any DM knows, things don't always go as planned, but Xykon was fortunate that littering isn't against the paladin code.

mikeejimbo
2006-11-14, 06:17 PM
HAHA! Oh man, I loved it. I know some people will complain that Rich is trying to explain away all the things in the forum, but it's really fitting and in character, if you ask me.

Everything Xykon did, that is.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 06:28 PM
yes, I very much doubt he's changing the stories based on the forums. He's simply setting up people up to fall for obvious traps. "Gee, wonder how many people will say control weather can't do that. Heh, I'd like to see their faces when they see the next comic.."

People, of course, being the predictable obnoxious rules lawyers that they are, easily fall for it, and then actually claim that he modified the story because of it, without realizing exactly how incredibly predictable their responses are.

You know, annoying the rules lawyers with this kind of thing was particularly appropos IMNSHO; I have enough memories of games that I have run where some rules lawyer or other has caused the game to come to a grinding halt because they complained at length about some piddling detail that I had in fact planned in advance and that was relevant to the plot. Not thinking "hmm, I wonder why that happened" or "ah, well, the plot comes first" but instead going "durrr, you can't do that because page XYZ of manual such and such says so". So much for actually getting "in character".

Grrr.

Whoops, I said that I was all done. My bad. :smallbiggrin:


PS: Of course I can now admit that I was so busy counter-attacking the rules lawyers that I fell for it myself: I was more of the opinion that it was a rules bending for the sake of plot rather than a trick, even though I have used similar ploys before. LOL. Nice one, Rich.

The Extinguisher
2006-11-14, 06:47 PM
Quest Buy = Awesome

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-14, 06:50 PM
Hopefully Giant cuts back to the OOTS sometime soon before we forget why we're supposed to be rooting against Xykon alltogether. =p

Spiky
2006-11-14, 06:54 PM
Quest Buy.
Best. Pun. EVER!

Once again, "best" and "pun" are not allowed in the same thought. Please people, try to pay attention!

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-14, 07:05 PM
I don't know. . .
Beast Buy

Electrum City

Caltrops

Alchemists' Depot. . .

DanMan
2006-11-14, 07:07 PM
OMG! That was awesome. I've learned a new respect for Xykon and the Giant.

all hail Xykon!

:xykon:: sweet!

the_tick_rules
2006-11-14, 07:10 PM
All those who tore Rich a new one for his forcecage abuse must now BOW BEFORE HIM AND BEG HIS FORGIVENESS, UNTRUSTING FOOLS!!!!

fractal
2006-11-14, 07:14 PM
Just to add another point. Rich clearly knew what he was doing with the forecage. I think its slightly obvious that Rich plans these strips rather far into the furture. Now, Xykon left behind the Mitd to prevent her from escapeing. Now why would he do that if he knew very well the forecage was flawed and escapeable?
The reason to leave behind the MitD is because Miko might not be clever enough to escape an only Moderately-Escapable Forcecage. She is a Paladin, after all, Intelligence is their dump stat. Probably if she hadn't figured it out on her own, the Monster would eventually have gotten bored, wandered over, and inadvertently helped her out.

SupraGuy
2006-11-14, 07:15 PM
Rulemongers (Rules Lawyers? Okay, I can use that term. Stet.) only serve to remove the fun from a game. They can also sap the fun from a piece of fiction as well.

I've read this strip as a comic based on D&D. I'm sure that I've read somewhere the quote "Rules get bent when it makes the joke/plot work" or something to that effect.

Maybe the "Xykon's moderately escapable force cage" resulted from the controversy on the forum, maybe not. But it IS clear to me that Xykon INTENDED for Miko to be able to escape that force cage. It IS clear that Xykon expected Miko to outwit the CitD.

I'm absolutely certain that plot points are scripted out well in advance. More than far enough that Miko's escape had to have been planned. Xykon's tactic to use Miko is planned, and whatever happens to Miko when she gets to Azure City is also fore-ordained. :roy: "stupid railroad plot." It's going to happen, and it's going to happen the way that Rich says that it will.

:redcloak: Won't some of the hobgoblins die...

This brought me straight to the flashback of

:xykon: *sniff* My little Redcloak is all grown up...

Redcloak's character IS developing, and I don't think he's quite the underling stooge anymore.

Xykon, on the other hand, hasn't changed much. He seems to be accepting Redcloak as more of a partner than indentured servant, though I'm sure that the :xykon: "200gp on the wacky kung-fu chick" was also intended to reinforce who's the senior partner. Xykon did not intend for Redcloak to die. (As another goblin zombie, he's nowhere near as useful.) He did intend that Redcloak get his rear handed to him though.

Now if I were Shojo... I'd be mighty suspicious of the lone paladin riding hard to the city gates. Maybe suspicious enough to have "Mr Scruffy" send Miko to defend some otherwise invaluable chunk of dungeon. Maybe even one with only one entrance/exit which could be baricaded?

Naturally, Miko would be torn between obeying the letter of her orders, and wanting to do the right thing, which she would see as defending the Gate. :mitd: "What is this gate that people keep talking about?"

Grey Knight
2006-11-14, 07:31 PM
I thought Miko was going to save Azure city, but now it seems she has doomed the multiverse by leading Xykon to the gate...by no fault of her own.

Cue "Miko must fall for leading Xykon to the gate" thread in 10... 9... 8... 7... ...

CockroachTeaParty
2006-11-14, 07:33 PM
Oh man, Xykon has all the bases covered, doesn't he? It's such a perfectly evil, awesome plan. This is what evil campaigns should be like... not mindlessly burning down taverns. I suppose you could do that too... but after you execute your awesome evil plan!

xyzchyx
2006-11-14, 07:40 PM
Xykon's calculations are off on forced march speeds. A warhorse is far faster than an on-foot army of hobgoblins could ever hope to be

Bluesilver
2006-11-14, 07:40 PM
Quest Buy?
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aerysil
2006-11-14, 07:43 PM
So that explains hows force bars can actually be moved in space.

In your face, rules lawyers. Giant is ahead of you, good luck next time!

Trobby
2006-11-14, 07:47 PM
Yes..but is this a High-Definition Wide-Screen Crystal ball? :3

Mrr..while I'm sad to see the end of the "rapid comic week", at least it ended on a relatively high note. ^^

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 08:03 PM
Xykon's calculations are off on forced march speeds. A warhorse is far faster than an on-foot army of hobgoblins could ever hope to be

Well, Miko did comment that at Windstriker's best speed, they will be only a day or two ahead of the hobgoblins. The implication is that they are just that close to the city - after all, it was the last of the watchtowers. That the city will be harder to capture is less of an issue with so many minions than getting some intel on the gate itself.

If they are, say 50 km (30 miles) away from the city, that would be a day's march or so, less than a day with a forced march.


EDIT: By the way, today's comic title is yet another Star Wars reference. ;)

eilandesq
2006-11-14, 08:21 PM
If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the hobgoblins won't die but they will all be fatigued and suffering from varying amounts of nonlethal damage--with a substantial number being unconscious. Unless Xykon is planning on having the ones still standing taking 8 hrs to rest, they're going to be rather ineffective (the undead will be still raring to go).

Nightfall
2006-11-14, 08:23 PM
Another laugh-out-loud comic! Well done, Giant!

Solara
2006-11-14, 08:24 PM
If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the hobgoblins won't die but they will all be fatigued and suffering from varying amounts of nonlethal damage--with a substantial number being unconscious. Unless Xykon is planning on having the ones still standing taking 8 hrs to rest, they're going to be rather ineffective (the undead will be still raring to go).

Well, all the unconscious ones can just be killed and turned into zombies right before they get to the city, can't they?

Or does that take too much time? I'm not real clear on the rules there.

ozmar
2006-11-14, 08:45 PM
Oh man! Great comic, Giant!

I think that every one of you who posted any complaints about "that's not how forcecage works" or "why didn't Xykon kill her right away?" or [insert random meowing about how the Giant makes all these rules mistakes or plot holes here] owes Rich a big heaping helping of apologies.

Go Giant! We should never lose faith in Rich's abilities in plot and detail. I bet he's got this strip already planned out for the next five years at least.

Love it! Keep it up!

Woo hoo!
Ozmar the OotS Fanboy :D

Estelindis
2006-11-14, 08:49 PM
Fantastic! Best comic I've read in ages. There were too many funny things in this to mention them all, but my favourites were the forcecage thing and "won't some of the hobgoblins die?" :smallbiggrin:

On a related note, maybe leading the army to the gate will make Miko a little less sure of herself - which I think is what her personality needs (if not necessarily her character, which works well as it is, as an antagonist).

Tiako
2006-11-14, 08:51 PM
And is it just my perception, or is there more of an equal balance between :xykon: and :redcloak:?
I think it is because Xykon is beginning to respect Redcloak. Before, he almost seemed to be neutral, but he is healthily evil now.

This comic gave me three belly laughs.


If they are, say 50 km (30 miles) away from the city, that would be a day's march or so, less than a day with a forced march.
Thirty miles in one day? Lawrence's Arab army moved that fast, and they were all mounted (Granted, they kept that up for a month). I think the Romans could only go twenty miles a day at the absolute fastest, and they were well known for their good marching abilities. A disorderly hobgoblin army couldn't hope to do that, no matter what mage is compelling them.

Rama_Lei
2006-11-14, 08:55 PM
How rag-tag we talking here? brilliant!

ozmar
2006-11-14, 08:55 PM
Oh I understand the logic behind the plan but it does seem unnecessarily convoluted for my liking. The whole "place the enemy in an easily escapable prison and then turn around in order to allow them to escape" could have been taken straight from the pages of an Ian Fleming novel (in between the sadism and martinis).

Personally I'd be more in favour of a "Crush Azure City into tiny bits and then sort through the rubble to find the gate" approach :smallbiggrin:

As an aside, I've just realised that we have a full blown paladin v goblin battle looming in the near future. I can't wait to see how the Giant manages this one.

Edit: For all the non-Americans, "Quest Buy" = ?

"Quest Buy" = "Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/)" Note the logo.

As for the whole "place the enemy in an easily escapable prison and then turn around in order to allow them to escape" thing... hey, the classics are classic for a reason. :D

Way to go, Xykon! :xykon:

Axl_Rose
2006-11-14, 09:03 PM
lol that was awesome, one of your best in a while IMO

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 09:22 PM
Thirty miles in one day? Lawrence's Arab army moved that fast, and they were all mounted (Granted, they kept that up for a month). I think the Romans could only go twenty miles a day at the absolute fastest, and they were well known for their good marching abilities. A disorderly hobgoblin army couldn't hope to do that, no matter what mage is compelling them.

The hobgoblins are not really disorderly, and the Roman figure was time-averaged over a long period, not a brief spurt of marching, was it not?

Given 16 hours of marching time per day (and that allows 8 hours of sleep and food), you can manage 50 km or thereabouts if you march just over 3 km per hour - which is certainly doable.

Itdano
2006-11-14, 09:32 PM
Well, naturally. He is a mastermind type supervillain, after all. (And why should Nale get all the fun in that regard?) :smallwink: Anyway, what was she supposed to do? Not go and warn Azure city? She didn't really have any options available to her but following Xykon's plan.

I agree. And that's why it was so brilliant. Because he knew exactly what to say to her, and when, to get her to do exactly what he wanted her to do, all while thinking it her idea in the first place. If Guinness were beer, I'd raise one and yell, "Brilliant!" at the top of my lungs. Sadly, it is not beer. It is mud.

xyzchyx
2006-11-14, 09:47 PM
If they are, say 50 km (30 miles) away from the city, that would be a day's march or so, less than a day with a forced march.Yes, but Miko should arrive at Azure city in half the time it takes the army... so they will have several hours to adequately prepare... a task that would probably be almost impossible in the real world, but ought to be doable in a fantasy realm where magic exists.

Mystitat
2006-11-14, 09:49 PM
I am soooo in awe of this comic. That many jokes in a strip that doesn't even feature the main characters?! Go Giant!

(And I know I'm such a noob for asking, but someone wanna explain the "1000 GP" tag? That can't be random...)

vampeel
2006-11-14, 09:54 PM
Go Giant Go..

This is a great comic, not because of the amount of great jokes, but for the fact you know what you doing, no matter what other people say.

The Giant understands that the DnD books are just a guide, and they are just a set of rules people can agree on, they can be changed at anytime if you choose

So when people say "that not how it works" or "the rules say", so what.

Giant keep bringing them on. I like your style. Do something different, so people complain, then show them why.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 09:58 PM
Yes, but Miko should arrive at Azure city in half the time it takes the army... so they will have several hours to adequately prepare... a task that would probably be almost impossible in the real world, but ought to be doable in a fantasy realm where magic exists.

Ought it? Perhaps. Though they were rather depending on their early warning beacons, right? If it takes half a day for her to arrive in Azure city, that's half a day less warning than would be anticipated for the very last of the watchtowers. Of course, some preparations would be made, but would it be enough (and even if she manages to get there a lot faster, that will still be less time than the design of the watchtower system allowed for)?

charik
2006-11-14, 10:01 PM
Thirty miles in one day? Lawrence's Arab army moved that fast, and they were all mounted (Granted, they kept that up for a month). I think the Romans could only go twenty miles a day at the absolute fastest, and they were well known for their good marching abilities. A disorderly hobgoblin army couldn't hope to do that, no matter what mage is compelling them.
Nonsense. I personally can walk 4 miles/6 km in an hour, and keep that pace up for 4~5 hours without stop. Of course, I'm not carrying 80 pounds of gear while doing it, but the zombies can carry the gear while the hobgoblins march.

I liked the comic, and I think the only way to avoid the frivolous claims that Rich alters the comic to answer comments made on this forum is if no one ever posts here again.

the_tick_rules
2006-11-14, 10:11 PM
Well the huns could do 100 miles a day. But that was entriely mounted. a foot army consisting of large numbers of slow undead. Not fast.

TinSoldier
2006-11-14, 10:18 PM
US Special Forces have to qualify by doing forced marches at 4 miles per hour. However, remember that Xykon's army has zombies in it which are shambling mounds of dead flesh. They won't be able to keep that pace.

Hmm. Checking the PHB and MM, zombies have a speed of 30', which translates into an overland travel speed of 3 miles per hour walking or 6 miles per hour hustling. A forced march, according to the rules, is anything more than 8 hours a day.

It is hard to say how fast the army can move, but I doubt that it will be much faster or slower than the speed of plot.

5tephen
2006-11-14, 10:21 PM
Oh!
Quest buy is a pun!?

Makes more sense now. Still a bloody funny comic anyway.

Nightmarenny
2006-11-14, 10:47 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

otherwise, it's again more lovely oots goodness. the bad guys are actually responsible for more laughs-per-appearance than the good guys. ("you should've seen the look on yor skull"... priceless)

My god. You people sure are pompus. Why is it that everytime an obvious flaw isn't solved right away then it had to be because of forum input. Giant is an obsessive who feals he must try and solve it all himself. Get over yourself.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-14, 10:49 PM
US Special Forces have to qualify by doing forced marches at 4 miles per hour. However, remember that Xykon's army has zombies in it which are shambling mounds of dead flesh. They won't be able to keep that pace.

Hmm. Checking the PHB and MM, zombies have a speed of 30', which translates into an overland travel speed of 3 miles per hour walking or 6 miles per hour hustling. A forced march, according to the rules, is anything more than 8 hours a day.

Of course, if the army is divided into brigades that march at different speeds, Xykon can have the vanguard of his army in position earlier than the slowest units. Also, zombies don't tire, unlike the hobgoblins.

BurntOfferings
2006-11-14, 10:55 PM
Outstanding comic!

Hang on.... Does this mean that even jokes must go inside spoiler tags? :smalleek:


Clearly Xykon researched a nerfed version of the standard forcecage that doesn't cost 1,500 gp to cast. :smallwink:

fractal
2006-11-14, 11:32 PM
Rulemongers (Rules Lawyers? Okay, I can use that term. Stet.) only serve to remove the fun from a game. They can also sap the fun from a piece of fiction as well.

I've read this strip as a comic based on D&D. I'm sure that I've read somewhere the quote "Rules get bent when it makes the joke/plot work" or something to that effect.
I would like to object to these statements. Although I am not someone who complained about the Forcecage (what would be the point?), I certainly have rules-lawyer tendencies.

Anyway, when playing a game like D&D, I want the rules to be followed by everyone, including the DM - with any exceptions clearly spelled out in advance (essentially becoming new rules). That's because the rules are the laws of physics, and also the contract under which all parties agreed to play the game. Failure to follow them feels like cheating. It also interferes with the suspension of disbelief. It's like if a writer of historical fiction had his heroes magically fly to escape an enemy.

Furthermore, this is a comic which relies upon the rules. Much of the humor only makes sense from within the context of the D&D rules. Therefore, I think it is perfectly valid for readers of the comic to be concerned about the sanctity of those rules, even if the rules don't matter to you personally.

chadmeister
2006-11-15, 12:08 AM
The giant knows his D&D stuff very well. I find it hard to believe that he doesn't forsee when it is a good idea to put a clarifacation into the next comic as to what happened when someone bent the rules.

There was no bending of the rules. Making a variant of a spell is perfectly within the rules, and something I would expect any DM to do when necessary.

chadmeister
2006-11-15, 12:13 AM
Cue "Miko must fall for leading Xykon to the gate" thread in 10... 9... 8... 7... ...

Well, by her own logic bringing the OOTS to trial, she should be tried for those actions. Ignorance of the BBEG's plan is no excuse.

Pvednes
2006-11-15, 12:22 AM
Pretty ragtag.

Nashua
2006-11-15, 12:22 AM
This was a great comic. Xykon truly is an evil genius! Miko obviously wasn't thinking very carefully (or like a good citizen) when she decided to leave her broken potion bottles and torn cloak lying around! Those demonic roaches were right! I think we can all learn a valuable lesson about properly disoposing of our trash from this story... Also, if they sold widescreen crystal balls in the "real world" I'd SO totally buy one!
The plot is moving and the jokes are rolling! Keep up the good work Giant!

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 12:30 AM
This was a great comic. Xykon truly is an evil genius! Miko obviously wasn't thinking very carefully (or like a good citizen) when she decided to leave her broken potion bottles and torn cloak lying around! Those demonic roaches were right! I think we can all learn a valuable lesson about properly disoposing of our trash from this story... Also, if they sold widescreen crystal balls in the "real world" I'd SO totally buy one!
The plot is moving and the jokes are rolling! Keep up the good work Giant!Give a hoot, don't pollute? Yeah, I could see another owlbear joke there.

Crying elf? Hmm...

kabbor
2006-11-15, 12:32 AM
The reason to leave behind the MitD is because Miko might not be clever enough to escape an only Moderately-Escapable Forcecage. She is a Paladin, after all, Intelligence is their dump stat. Probably if she hadn't figured it out on her own, the Monster would eventually have gotten bored, wandered over, and inadvertently helped her out.

Mitd also allowed Miko to be smashed straight through a stone wall at a high mach number - That's always a good thing.

OH, and Rich responding to the forums: Remember panel 2 of Mail Call(1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)?

GenericFighter
2006-11-15, 12:38 AM
How the army can beat Miko to Azure City:

:redcloak: "Hobgoblins... mount zombies! Zombies... run that way!"

However, zombies can only take partial actions, so no running for them. Xykon will probably make the hobgoblins carry the zombies.

:xykon: "Aw, man. Why didn't I make 'em skeletons?!"

Tobimaro
2006-11-15, 12:52 AM
First, loved the Quest Buy joke.

Second, I am gaining a small bit of respect for Xykon for being an Evil Genius. He is getting Miko to do some of his dirty work for him, and misled her to believe that the OotS is actually working with him to destroy the gates. But his membership in the Evil Genius club will be confirmed if he actually gets to control the gate, and if he gets to defeat the OotS (but no taunting them).

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 12:56 AM
I would like to object to these statements.

Boo hoo. They were accurate. Rules lawyering DOES detract from the fun of both a game and a fantasy.


Although I am not someone who complained about the Forcecage (what would be the point?), I certainly have rules-lawyer tendencies.

That is bad.


Anyway, when playing a game like D&D, I want the rules to be followed by everyone, including the DM - with any exceptions clearly spelled out in advance (essentially becoming new rules). That's because the rules are the laws of physics,

Laws of physics? What?


and also the contract under which all parties agreed to play the game. Failure to follow them feels like cheating.

And you fail to consider the possibility of the DM knowing what he is doing, and thus having reason for it? I mentioned examples of games earlier that I had run being derailed - much to the annoyance of ALL other players present in the game - by precisely this kind of nitpickery, when I had in fact plot-related reasons for the changes which would have become spoilers had the players known of them in advance. Needless to say, with enough such cases the offending player was disinvited to further sessions.


It also interferes with the suspension of disbelief. It's like if a writer of historical fiction had his heroes magically fly to escape an enemy.

Nonsense.


Furthermore, this is a comic which relies upon the rules. Much of the humor only makes sense from within the context of the D&D rules. Therefore, I think it is perfectly valid for readers of the comic to be concerned about the sanctity of those rules, even if the rules don't matter to you personally.

And you don't consider the possibility of satire by mocking said rules through bending them? Good grief.



Well, by her own logic bringing the OOTS to trial, she should be tried for those actions. Ignorance of the BBEG's plan is no excuse.

She brought the OOTS to trial because Lord Shojo ordered her to do so. Moreover, she has not destroyed any of the gates, nor did she have any choice other than to warn Azure city (this being, in fact, her job), whereas Elan could easily have chosen not to trigger the self-destruct rune (though of course, he could not have known of the implications).

Argus
2006-11-15, 01:04 AM
Here's a reason for the Sapphire Guard not to bother with "Detect Scrying" or similar measures:

Soon believed in the power of honor, truth, and loyalty, not magic (such as Dorukan's). http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Reinforcements
2006-11-15, 01:07 AM
Boo hoo. They were accurate. Rules lawyering DOES detract from the fun of both a game and a fantasy.
That's not entirely fair. While it's true that excessive rules-lawyering is bad, I (for one) generally like to play by the rules, as it were. Some of my D&D-playing friends, for example, tend to play a little too fast-and-loose for my taste. For example, this kind of exchange has happened to me more than once:

Friend DM: You're surrounded by goblins.

Friend 2: Can I spin around and hit them all with one attack? (doesn't have Whirlwind Attack)

Friend DM: Sure.

Me: Uh...

It makes me feel like a jerk, but that kind of thing bugs me. As with all things, rules-lawyering is only bad in excess (unless you're already defining "rules-lawyering" as "caring about the rules too much").

Oh yeah, and "How ragtag are we talking here?" is one of the greatest lines ever.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 01:13 AM
That's not entirely fair. While it's true that excessive rules-lawyering is bad, I (for one) generally like to play by the rules, as it were. Some of my D&D-playing friends, for example, tend to play a little too fast-and-loose for my taste. <SNIP EXAMPLE>

It is eminently fair. If you don't like it because it cuts too close to home, well, that might give you something to reflect on, yes?


It makes me feel like a jerk, but that kind of thing bugs me.

Perhaps you should consider what the point of playing a game is.


As with all things, rules-lawyering is only bad in excess (unless you're already defining "rules-lawyering" as "caring about the rules too much").

What other definitions of "rules lawyering" are there? And "too much" in my book means ImportanceOfRules > ImportanceOfPeopleHavingFun.

If you don't like it when rules are bent, there are always other groups to play with. But don't derail the damn game with nitpicking.

MetalKelt
2006-11-15, 01:48 AM
Friend DM: You're surrounded by goblins.

Friend 2: Can I spin around and hit them all with one attack? (doesn't have Whirlwind Attack)

Friend DM: Sure.

Me: Uh...



If you don't like it when rules are bent, there are always other groups to play with. But don't derail the damn game with nitpicking.

There is a difference between bending the rules and breaking the rules. Hence where my dividing line between respecting the rules and rules-lawyering is drawn.

Anyway, awesome comic, loved the widescreen crystal ball.

And lastly



If Guinness were beer, I'd raise one and yell, "Brilliant!" at the top of my lungs. Sadly, it is not beer. It is mud.


What are you talking about!? Are your taste buds ruined beyond repair by cheap colored water? Guinness is as manna from above!

Fat Daddy
2006-11-15, 01:52 AM
That was the best strip in this little Miko-Xykon story arc excursion. I don't even know where to start with what I liked about it...
Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage
Won't some of the hobgoblins die, pause, insane laughter
Quest Buy and the Widescreen Crystal ball
Thank you Rich. Masterfully done. I do have one question though, is that widescreen in high def? :biggrin:

Moechi_Vill
2006-11-15, 01:53 AM
This was kind of predictable but I digged the widescreen and the cloak with the hairs was a very nice touch.

fractal
2006-11-15, 02:08 AM
Perhaps you should consider what the point of playing a game is.

What other definitions of "rules lawyering" are there? And "too much" in my book means ImportanceOfRules > ImportanceOfPeopleHavingFun.
The point of playing a game is to have fun. I assume you know that. The issue you're missing, I think, is that if the game is understood to have a particular set of rules, then having those rules flagrantly violated isn't fun. The agreed upon game is not actually being played.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in addition to not liking rules, you also don't like math.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 02:11 AM
There is a difference between bending the rules and breaking the rules. Hence where my dividing line between respecting the rules and rules-lawyering is drawn.

Define the distinction between "bending" and "breaking".

As for myself, the distinction becomes more important when certain types of player start wasting everyone's play-time with squabbling. Moreso if there are in actual fact reasons for the change that the players are not supposed to know of yet, or if there are important hints implicit in the breaking or bending (or whatever you want to call it).

After all, one can always discuss the game mechanics during a break, and when I DM, I tend to give such breaks in the gaming amongst other things to allow for just that (and incidentally, I also allow for input from players about interpretation except when this would slow the play down, when there are real reasons for such a change or when I want/need to keep people guessing).


The point of playing a game is to have fun. I assume you know that. The issue you're missing, I think, is that if the game is understood to have a particular set of rules, then having those rules flagrantly violated isn't fun. The agreed upon game is not actually being played.

I am not missing any such thing. Don't deviate from the source of the discussion, which was people wasting a hell of a lot of time grousing about a change when there was real reason for it. And more to the point, you cannot know when there is such a reason until after the game session is over.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in addition to not liking rules, you also don't like math.

On both counts, the limb breaks quite spectacularly, and you plumment into a 100' hole of owned.

dragon95046
2006-11-15, 02:13 AM
It is eminently fair. If you don't like it because it cuts too close to home, well, that might give you something to reflect on, yes?

Perhaps you should consider what the point of playing a game is.


Let me see if I understand your definition of fair here.

It is perfectly fair to Player A, who had to spend 4 feats, and thusly wait 6-9 levels, to acquire an ability to be allowed to attack every adjacent enemy then have Player B who is allowed to do the same thing with no cost or effort.

I cannot begin to express how much I disagree with that. I would have to agree with Reinforcement here. The "point" of playing the game (ANY GAME) is that there ARE rules.

I would have to ask what's the point of buying three books plus any number of supplementals to just put them on the shelf and completely ignore them? If you are going to completely ignore them you may as well throw away the dice, grab some beers and just sit around on the porch have one person act as moderator and start telling stories.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 02:17 AM
Let me see if I understand your definition of fair here.

Just hold on there a minute buddy. I was NOT claiming that the EXAMPLE given was "fair", I was claiming that the critique of RULES LAWYERING in this thread was fair.

ryboy5
2006-11-15, 02:23 AM
Oh man.

That comic was so funny I registered just to write it lol

First the hobgoblin dying of exhaustion joke busted me up, but then the last joke hit me because I work at Best Buy. Widescreen... holy crud man.

You even got the blue shirt and tan pants! rofl

Great job Giant, I look forward to OOTS every time I get on my computer.

dragon95046
2006-11-15, 02:26 AM
Just hold on there a minute buddy. I was NOT claiming that the EXAMPLE given was "fair", I was claiming that the critique of RULES LAWYERING in this thread was fair.

If that is indeed the case, then I apologize. It seemed that you were supporting the example given when I read Reinforcement's post immediately prior to yours. I went back and re-read your post as a stand alone entity and I can see now what you were saying.

I have never had a probelm with bending or even breaking rules when needed, but I always have an eye on being as fair to everyone as I can so that particular example just cut to the quick.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 02:30 AM
If that is indeed the case, then I apologize. It seemed that you were supporting the example given when I read Reinforcement's post immediately prior to yours. I went back and re-read your post as a stand alone entity and I can see now what you were saying.

Ah, cool. :smallwink: In retrospect, I guess I wasn't clear enough when I posted that. My bad.


I have never had a probelm with bending or even breaking rules when needed, but I always have an eye on being as fair to everyone as I can so that particular example just cut to the quick.

Absolutely. Hence the importance of breaks during playtime, so people can catch a breather, and so discussion of any issues can forestall ugliness later.

Moechi_Vill
2006-11-15, 02:33 AM
Ahhh Lord Zentei, your way of making friends with other forumgoers is charming indeed. I prefer the use of napalm, but the newbies don't seem to understand my love. ;)

dragon95046
2006-11-15, 02:36 AM
OK, now the reason I came to the boards to begin with.

I just wanted to say I loved the pause and expression between "But sir, won't some of the hobgoblins drop dead from exhaustion?" and the insane laughter. As one liners go it ranks right up there with Redcloaks decree to get even with Xycon if he has to sail a boat made of corpses across the sea.

fractal
2006-11-15, 02:37 AM
As for myself, the distinction becomes more important when certain types of player start wasting everyone's play-time with squabbling. Moreso if there are in actual fact reasons for the change that the players are not supposed to know of yet, or if there are important hints implicit in the breaking or bending (or whatever you want to call it).

After all, one can always discuss the game mechanics during a break, and when I DM, I tend to give such breaks in the gaming amongst other things to allow for just that (and incidentally, I also allow for input from players about interpretation except when this would slow the play down, when there are real reasons for such a change or when I want/need to keep people guessing).

I am not missing any such thing. Don't deviate from the source of the discussion, which was people wasting a hell of a lot of time grousing about a change when there was real reason for it. And more to the point, you cannot know when there is such a reason until after the game session is over.
No, I don't believe that was actually the source of the discussion. I was reacting to a post (by a different person) that indicated hostility in general towards those who value having the rules followed (not just towards the people who complained about Forcecage).

Obviously no one wants to waste time with arguments. From the standpoint of those who place emphasis on the rules, the easiest way to avoid arguments is to simply follow said rules. That's what the rules are for, after all: resolving arguments and uncertainty over what happens in the game (mostly during combat).

Incidentally, if the Dungeon Master is trusted to both know and follow the rules, then it is quite possible to make "changes" without truly breaking the rules or provoking argument. This comic was actually an example of that: Xykon researched a new variant on Forcecage. The rules support that, no breaking required.

If a player trusts that the DM knows how the PHB spell of Forcecage is supposed to work, then there should be no problem with how the comic worked out. On the other hand, if there is reason to doubt that the DM knows how Forcecage works, then the event in question (and the natural assumption that the spell was being played wrong) could be extremely aggravating for a player who cared about the rules.

Surprisingly little is actually against the rules, if it is placed in the proper context. That is a very important if. Yes to modified spells, no to "the spell doesn't work the way it says it does". Etc.

On both counts, the limb breaks quite spectacularly, and you plumment into a 100' hole of owned.
I'm glad to hear that you dislike neither rules nor math. I'm disappointed to learn that you think the best way to carry on a discussion is with irrelevant and rude statements like this.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 02:45 AM
No, I don't believe that was actually the source of the discussion. I was reacting to a post (by a different person) that indicated hostility in general towards those who value having the rules followed (not just towards the people who complained about Forcecage).


As far as I could tell, all posts disparaging rules lawyering up until your post were made in relation to the recent brouhaha over the forcecage spell, and similar nonsense. So, no, can't say I agree in the slightest.


Obviously no one wants to waste time with arguments. From the standpoint of those who place emphasis on the rules, the easiest way to avoid arguments is to simply follow said rules. That's what the rules are for, after all: resolving arguments and uncertainty over what happens in the game (mostly during combat).

You skirt around the point: if people start caring about the rules so much that they start arguing about interpretations/perceived breaches thus slowing down play, that is disruptive and unfun.


Incidentally, if the Dungeon Master is trusted to both know and follow the rules, then it is quite possible to make "changes" without truly breaking the rules or provoking argument. This comic was actually an example of that: Xykon researched a new variant on Forcecage. The rules support that, no breaking required.

If a player trusts that the DM knows how the PHB spell of Forcecage is supposed to work, then there should be no problem with how the comic worked out. On the other hand, if there is reason to doubt that the DM knows how Forcecage works, then the event in question (and the natural assumption that the spell was being played wrong) could be extremely aggravating for a player who cared about the rules.

And is there anyone here voicing opinion to the contrary? Unless you are actually talking about a parody that is.


Surprisingly little is actually against the rules, if it is placed in the proper context. That is a very important if. Yes to modified spells, no to "the spell doesn't work the way it says it does". Etc.

And you again avoid the issue of there possibly being legitimate reasons for such a change without prior discussion.


I'm glad to hear that you dislike neither rules nor math. I'm disappointed to learn that you think the best way to carry on a discussion is with irrelevant and rude statements like this.

Not as disapointed as I am learning that you seem to enjoy style over substance fallacies, and can appeal to civility after you made assumptions about my meaning, and followed that with holier than thou pontifications. And no, the statement was not irrelevant in the slightest, seeing as you understood its relevance and meaning perfectly.

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-15, 03:06 AM
Either the Giant has blundered the forcecage and fixed it by claiming it was in Xykon's plan all along, or it really was Xykon's plan all along and he put the forcecage out there to mess with the minds of the rules-lawyers.
I tend to think it was the latter.


You know.... it is possible that Rich deliberately put the force cage situation in the strip because he *knew* it would get the ranting rules lawyers on these boards upset.

He had various options for deciding how Xykon would pretend to trap Miko while really wanting her to escape… but he specifically decided to use a manipulated spell so it would get certain posters all worked up. Just to torture them

I am probably wrong with this theory, but it amuses me to think it might be true.
Yeah, I can totally imagine Rich sitting back and grinning saying "I can't WAIT to see the uproar THIS causes. Mwahahahahaha!"


It's a part of their panache. :smallwink:
I always liked that word, panache. I don't think it gets nearly enough air time. :smallcool:

Moechi_Vill
2006-11-15, 03:08 AM
Well, I'm a writer and by my experience Rich found a good way to let her free, saw that he'd need to modify it, modified it and wrote in his excuse later and made it into a sort of semi-mockery.

I give it a 9!

fractal
2006-11-15, 03:08 AM
You skirt around the point: if people start caring about the rules so much that they start arguing about interpretations/perceived breaches thus slowing down play, that is disruptive and unfun.
Yes. It can be a tricky situation. To simply dismiss or trivialize their concerns, however, is to fail to recognize that the rules are a critical portion of D&D (as opposed to the fantasy storytelling mentioned above).

And is there anyone here voicing opinion to the contrary? Unless you are actually talking about a parody that is.
It seemed to me that you were. Your statements to the effect that "rules lawyers are always bad" seemed to imply that players had no legitimate gripe if the DM suddenly decides (in the middle of play) that spells don't work the way the books say they do. Players make many long-term and permanent character decisions relying upon the rules; changing or ignoring those rules in an unannounced manner is not necessarily fair to them.

And you again avoid the issue of there possibly being legitimate reasons for such a change without prior discussion.
There could be a legitimate reason, I suppose, although it's far more likely that the same goal could have been accomplished more subtly within the framework of the rules (the Forcecage example). In either case, it really boils down to trust. If the players trust that the DM both knows and understands the rules, and can be relied upon for fairness, then it is far easier to accept that rules modifications might have a higher purpose.

Moechi_Vill
2006-11-15, 03:16 AM
Mhmmm yes, that's why every GM needs a respectable GM screen. I never found myself jeering at the ones with impressive shieldings.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 03:17 AM
Yes. It can be a tricky situation. To simply dismiss or trivialize their concerns, however, is to fail to recognize that the rules are a critical portion of D&D (as opposed to the fantasy storytelling mentioned above).

There is a big difference between trivializing player's concerns and not tolerating rules lawyering.


It seemed to me that you were. Your statements to the effect that "rules lawyers are always bad" seemed to imply that players had no legitimate gripe if the DM suddenly decides (in the middle of play) that spells don't work the way the books say they do. Players make many long-term and permanent character decisions relying upon the rules; changing or ignoring those rules in an unannounced manner is not necessarily fair to them.

That's a bit of a slippery slope, particularly since I have already clarified what I consider "rules lawyering" and moreso since I have emphasised the importance of discussion and feedback during games.


There could be a legitimate reason, I suppose, although it's far more likely that the same goal could have been accomplished more subtly within the framework of the rules (the Forcecage example). In either case, it really boils down to trust. If the players trust that the DM both knows and understands the rules, and can be relied upon for fairness, then it is far easier to accept that rules modifications might have a higher purpose.

Which makes the rants about Rich's Forcecage all the more hilarious (as if he were some kind of newbie DM or something). And again, one does not start such squabbling during gameplay, since this wastes everyone else's time (and since they may be enjoying themselves regardless). One can always discuss it during a break, and if disagreements persist, one finds another group. In such a case, the evening may seem wasted, but it will with 100% probability be wasted (for everyone present, not just oneself) if one starts an argument during play-time.

And on the subject of parodies, there is even less to squabble about. As for instance, when Spaceballs makes fun of Star Wars by making a caricature of it, does one complain about it not being fair because a strict reading of Star Wars shows it to be different? I should hope not! Why then can parodies of games not receive the same consideration?

DarkLightDragon
2006-11-15, 03:17 AM
I loved the last panel. And:xykon: doing the big eyes never fails to crack me up!

fractal
2006-11-15, 03:30 AM
There is a big difference between trivializing player's concerns and not tolerating rules lawyering.

That's a bit of a slippery slope, particularly since I have already clarified what I consider "rules lawyering" and moreso since I have emphasised the importance of discussion and feedback during games.
Maybe we're working on different definitions here, then. I would have defined rules lawyering to be "objecting to how the DM was doing something in the game, because it didn't match the agreed-upon rules". Although this behavior can sometimes cause problems, I think there's a legitimate place for it at the gaming table.

If you're going to say "objecting is sometimes good, and it's sometimes bad, and it's only rules lawyering when it's bad", then okay, I guess rules lawyering would be bad under that definition. Doesn't seem like a very useful definition, though.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 03:39 AM
Maybe we're working on different definitions here, then. I would have defined rules lawyering to be "objecting to how the DM was doing something in the game, because it didn't match the agreed-upon rules". Although this behavior can sometimes cause problems, I think there's a legitimate place for it at the gaming table.

There is a time and a place for feedback.


If you're going to say "objecting is sometimes good, and it's sometimes bad, and it's only rules lawyering when it's bad", then okay, I guess rules lawyering would be bad under that definition. Doesn't seem like a very useful definition, though.

That was not quite my definition. One has to consider what can make objections bad. They become bad if you value the rules more than the enjoyment of the game and the enjoyment of the roleplaying and storytelling that is the game's purpose. Or if the objections exist because you cannot enjoy a game that does not scrupulously follow the rules to the letter, and if you value the rules more than other people's enjoyment to the point that you would be willing to argue during the game about it, wasting everyones time and sapping the life out of the evening.

xv bones
2006-11-15, 03:45 AM
I'd like to point out that if Mr. Burlew restrained himself wholly to the stated rules of Dungeons and Dragons and did not permit himself something called

ARTISTIC LISCENCE

this story would not be nearly as entertaining.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 03:45 AM
I'd like to point out that if Mr. Burlew restrained himself wholly to the stated rules of Dungeons and Dragons and did not permit himself something called

ARTISTIC LISCENCE

this story would not be nearly as entertaining.

Quoted for truth.

Moechi_Vill
2006-11-15, 03:47 AM
Mhmmmm... I'd prefer if he was bone-headed on the rules and gives a reason every time he breaks something. It'd be... interesting. And I want sheets for the chars.
But I can see how most people wouldn't want that.

Hototo
2006-11-15, 04:02 AM
I want a wide screen crystal ball...
And this is all making sense now, because it would have been dumb for Xykon to leave behind his "secret weapon."

Delgarde
2006-11-15, 04:33 AM
I think the Romans could only go twenty miles a day at the absolute fastest, and they were well known for their good marching abilities. A disorderly hobgoblin army couldn't hope to do that, no matter what mage is compelling them.

Hobgoblins are a generally lawful race, and a militant one, not a disorderly mob. Their armies will certainly have the kind of discipline you're thinking of, and with a +2 Con bonus will have better endurance than a human army.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 04:45 AM
Since I missed it before:


Ahhh Lord Zentei, your way of making friends with other forumgoers is charming indeed. I prefer the use of napalm, but the newbies don't seem to understand my love. ;)

What's this? Are you implying that I turn on the heat too much? But these were light taps as far as I was concerned... :( :mitd: ;)

Om
2006-11-15, 05:24 AM
Hang on a sec...

Xkyon went to a lot of trouble here (crystal ball, modified spell)... did he know a paladin would be in that watchtower? Going by Redcloak's reaction it appeared that it was a spot of improvisation - which clashes with the careful preparations.

Freelance Henchman
2006-11-15, 06:14 AM
Awesome comic!

I sort of missed the demon roaches in this one, but I guess they hang around the MITD only.

charik
2006-11-15, 08:14 AM
Hang on a sec...

Xkyon went to a lot of trouble here (crystal ball, modified spell)... did he know a paladin would be in that watchtower? Going by Redcloak's reaction it appeared that it was a spot of improvisation - which clashes with the careful preparations.
In the (or a) tower? No. But somewhere along their march on Azure City? They were likely to come across a paladin somewhere.

And to all those who think :xykon: and :redcloak: went back to the tower or to the place where :miko: landed, please note that they are watching her with a powerful spyglass. I presume :redcloak: managed to grab a piece of blue cloak during their confrontation.

fractal
2006-11-15, 08:20 AM
And to all those who think :xykon: and :redcloak: went back to the tower or to the place where :miko: landed, please note that they are watching her with a powerful spyglass. I presume :redcloak: managed to grab a piece of blue cloak during their confrontation.
No, they pick up the piece of cloak where she dropped it after she landed. Look in panel 9, you can see the empty potion bottles scattered around.

Varnithis
2006-11-15, 08:38 AM
I can see we have a decient number of Rules-Lawyers foaming at the mouth here, nitpicking about DnD rules in a COMIC strip, so I'm going to share my basic policey for Excesive Rules-Lawyering:

If you nitpick in my games and bog everything down in rules-lawyering and are making the game not fun, don't be suprised when you find yourself legally removed from my game with 100% by the book legal DM cheese.

Rules-Lawyers need to understand that a player can never win agasint a DM in a rules-lawyer fight, and I don't let people ruin games with it. I agree that houserules and such things need to be made clear up front, as on the fly rules bending can be unfair and unfun for people as well, but when you declare everything has to be by the book and stop a game cold for an hour with lawyering... don't expect to remain in the game long.

As for OOTS, I enjoy this comic alot, and honestly, there is no need for rules-lawyering comedy.

SteveMB
2006-11-15, 09:05 AM
Hang on a sec...

Xkyon went to a lot of trouble here (crystal ball, modified spell)... did he know a paladin would be in that watchtower? Going by Redcloak's reaction it appeared that it was a spot of improvisation - which clashes with the careful preparations.
The only part that really required advance preparation was the nerfed version of Forcecage, and that could have been invented as a generic "let the prisoner escape and follow them to their allies/treasure/whatever" tool.

MonkeyHead
2006-11-15, 09:17 AM
:redcloak: and :xykon: sure remind me of a lot of the management I have had to work for in the past. Anyone else?

Korith
2006-11-15, 09:38 AM
In the (or a) tower? No. But somewhere along their march on Azure City? They were likely to come across a paladin somewhere.

And to all those who think :xykon: and :redcloak: went back to the tower or to the place where :miko: landed, please note that they are watching her with a powerful spyglass. I presume :redcloak: managed to grab a piece of blue cloak during their confrontation.

Comic 373 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) has Miko tearing off a piece of her own cloak. It's possible that enough of it survived the brandy-burning to contain useful hair.

That, or perhaps this is an example of that "Magical undamageable clothing" that we see in many RPGs and comics.

chibibar
2006-11-15, 09:58 AM
"Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage"...I am in awe.

And I thought :mitd: was going to be yelled at for letting :miko: escape.

I thought Miko was going to save Azure city, but now it seems she has doomed the multiverse by leading Xykon to the gate...by no fault of her own.

Just wait 'til Miko sees Belkar out of jail...and if she ever cast "Detect Evil" on Nale, her head will explode. I bet he is more evil than ANY of the other villains, even Sabrine. Just look how many random people he has killed personally. Xykon likes to sacrifice minions, but Nale uses named NPCs like disposable towels :)

You know what is sad? at least this is my personal prediction (no spoilers just an observation)

Miko is inadvertantly leading Xykon to the gate (or at least he is hoping she would) and probably would because she wanted to make sure that the gate is protected. Thus she probably will send some paladins to reinforce the protection or something like that....

THIS TIME it will be Miko's fault that the gate is destroy and she STILL probably won't put the connection together that the OoTS was in the same boat when Durokon's gate was destroy and still look down upon the OoTS because she is that "high strung" or something like that.

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 10:19 AM
Hang on a sec...

Xkyon went to a lot of trouble here (crystal ball, modified spell)... did he know a paladin would be in that watchtower? Going by Redcloak's reaction it appeared that it was a spot of improvisation - which clashes with the careful preparations.:xykon: "Chaotic evil..."

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 10:28 AM
THIS TIME it will be Miko's fault that the gate is destroy and she STILL probably won't put the connection together that the OoTS was in the same boat when Durokon's gate was destroy and still look down upon the OoTS because she is that "high strung" or something like that.

They were not really in the same boat. Elan conciously destroyed the gate unneccesarily and personally by pressing the self destruct mechanism. She is being spied on as she reinforces the gate's protection, when she really has no other choice. For all that, I think she'll be hard on herself if she learns that she was manipulated into making the gate less safe.

As for whether she stops looking down on the OOTS, that depends on whether she learns and accepts that they are not, in fact, working for Xykon - since this is the main reason she dislikes them now, not because the Redmountain gate was destroyed (unless prior speculations are accurate about her feeling conflicted about Roy/his rejection of her).

Korith
2006-11-15, 10:31 AM
Elan conciously destroyed the gate unneccesarily and personally by pressing the self destruct mechanism.

Not exactly.
#114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)
#115 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 10:32 AM
Right. Elan hit the "Castle Self-Destruct" a few pages later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) Throwing Xykon into the gate is what destroyed it.

My question: Was destroying the gate a better option than leaving it essentially unguarded?

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 10:34 AM
Not exactly.
#114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)
#115 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)

And


Right. Elan hit the "Castle Self-Destruct" a few pages later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) Throwing Xykon into the gate is what destroyed it.

Incorrect. That is Xykon exploding, not the Gate. This is expanded upon in no small detail during the trial.

Om
2006-11-15, 10:37 AM
Right. Elan hit the "Castle Self-Destruct" a few pages later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) Throwing Xykon into the gate is what destroyed it.Well the trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html) makes it pretty clear that it was Elan's actions that led to the destruction of the gate. That BOOM was Xykon going bye bye.

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 10:40 AM
Maybe. I was just skimming the comics.

But my other question still stands: Better to destroy it or leave it unguarded?

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 10:48 AM
Maybe. I was just skimming the comics.

But my other question still stands: Better to destroy it or leave it unguarded?

Definately.

As for the question: if they knew the significance of the gates, they would/should have used the stash they captured to pay for new guards for it. So I reject those as being the only two options. As it is, they didn't know.

If they genuinely had no other options, the destruction of the gate would presumably be the lesser evil, as long as three other gates remained.

For all that, Miko and Elan are not really in the same boat; even though they both are innocent of any concious wrongdoing. Neither of them can be blamed for weakening the fabric of the univese, though for quite different reasons.

Reinforcements
2006-11-15, 11:11 AM
Definately.

As for the question: if they knew the significance of the gates, they would/should have used the stash they captured to pay for new guards for it. So I reject those as being the only two options. As it is, they didn't know.

If they genuinely had no other options, the destruction of the gate would presumably be the lesser evil, as long as three other gates remained.

For all that, Miko and Elan are not really in the same boat; even though they both are innocent of any concious wrongdoing. Neither of them can be blamed for weakening the fabric of the univese, though for quite different reasons.
I agree. If Xykon does end up getting to the gate because he scryed on Miko, I could see her maybe feeling guilty about it (if she found out), but "Falling for and evil mastermind's plan" isn't exactly an evil act.

skinkatlarge
2006-11-15, 11:17 AM
Wow. Some of you are really, really happy that the "rules lawyers" "got what was coming to them". Did anyone actually remember reading on the thread that a lot of us were hoping for, and even expecting, the Giant to fix things later? The way he did with Control Weather? The fact that he even does these things reinforces our belief that he's going to rarely go against D&D rules, so why shouldn't we? The level of animosity on here is disheartening, to the point that I'm starting to think that participating on this forum is interfering with my enjoyment of the strip. I'm not gonna say I won't be back, but I'm going to take a break from here for a while.

So, just to give you more ammo to hate the nitpickers with, I'll say that I was happy Rich came through with an explanation, but not totally happy with the explanation. Xykon is a sorcerer, right? He only gets so many spells that he can ever know, period. Why waste one of those slots on a crippled spell? I was hoping for some kind of metamagic shaping thing, if Xykon did it deliberately. Oh, well. It certainly doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the comic for me nearly as much as the animosity on here has been doing recently. And I might be wrong about sorcerers, as a "rules lawyer" I'm pretty sub-par since I've never even played 3.x.

Loved "the look on your skull" and the widescreen crystal ball; looking forward to rejoining Our Heroes soon.

chibibar
2006-11-15, 11:27 AM
why would you want to waste a precious spell slot for a customize flaw spell?? cause he can :)

There is no rules that a player (or character) have to be "uber" at all times. There are a lot of times I pick the "less popular" spells and even customize (yea for a sorcerer also) some spells just because I can :) sure it makes me less uber but it is all about roleplaying.

I'm sure Xykon is no dummy. I mean he is pretty powerful and resourceful (even redcloak and the rest of us didn't see what he had plan) who knows what other custom spells might be.

As for Miko.... it is not matter of hate.. I personally believe in Karma and the balance of things. Miko has certainly tip the scale more than once in my opinion and it is matter of time it will come back and haunt her... WHEN is what we all trying to figure out and hope it would be that time.

So I hope.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 11:27 AM
Wow. Some of you are really, really happy that the "rules lawyers" "got what was coming to them". Did anyone actually remember reading on the thread that a lot of us were hoping for, and even expecting, the Giant to fix things later? The way he did with Control Weather? The fact that he even does these things reinforces our belief that he's going to rarely go against D&D rules, so why shouldn't we?

Actually, it was the nitpickers who started a thread specifically to voice their disapointment with Rich's writing.


The level of animosity on here is disheartening, to the point that I'm starting to think that participating on this forum is interfering with my enjoyment of the strip. I'm not gonna say I won't be back, but I'm going to take a break from here for a while.

Oh, for goodness sakes. As though people shouldn't be able to handle spirited debates wherein they disagree. "Animoisity?" Tsk. This controversy is absolutely nothing to raise a fuss over.


So, just to give you more ammo to hate the nitpickers with, I'll say that I was happy Rich came through with an explanation, but not totally happy with the explanation. Xykon is a sorcerer, right? He only gets so many spells that he can ever know, period. Why waste one of those slots on a crippled spell?

Going by the rules, as a sorcerer, he can actually unlearn spells.

skinkatlarge
2006-11-15, 11:45 AM
Oh, for goodness sakes. As though people shouldn't be able to handle spirited debates wherein they disagree. "Animoisity?" Tsk. This controversy is absolutely nothing to raise a fuss over.
Maybe it's the triviality of the issue that draws me to take things more personally than I would if it was a serious debate. I don't know. I do know that the hostility between posters here - for an example that I'm not personally involved in, take the pro- and anti-Miko partisans - makes me want to not read the forums. YMMV; I'm not trying to get anyone else to stop doing so.


Going by the rules, as a sorcerer, he can actually unlearn spells.Ahh. My mistake, and thanks for the correction. It does help to know that.

Rosham Boe
2006-11-15, 11:46 AM
I'll take a large screen scrying orb please!

Wonderful comic. Would only be better if Xykon asked the quest buy employee if it picks up multiple channels.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 11:55 AM
Maybe it's the triviality of the issue that draws me to take things more personally than I would if it was a serious debate. I don't know. I do know that the hostility between posters here - for an example that I'm not personally involved in, take the pro- and anti-Miko partisans - makes me want to not read the forums. YMMV; I'm not trying to get anyone else to stop doing so.

Really? :smallconfused: But would you object to really important issues leading to spirited debates?

For all that we can have spitited debates about silly things like whether such and such a spell does that or whether Miko desrves to fall or not, they are ultimately in good humour precisely because they are not important.


I'll take a large screen scrying orb please!

Wonderful comic. Would only be better if Xykon asked the quest buy employee if it picks up multiple channels.

Here's wondering how much they cost and where one can find a Quest Buy outlet.:smallwink:

chibibar
2006-11-15, 12:08 PM
I wanna go to Quest Buy :) yea.. Xykon's old orb does picture in picture :)

Doug Lampert
2006-11-15, 12:14 PM
So, just to give you more ammo to hate the nitpickers with, I'll say that I was happy Rich came through with an explanation, but not totally happy with the explanation. Xykon is a sorcerer, right? He only gets so many spells that he can ever know, period. Why waste one of those slots on a crippled spell?
But is it crippled, the normal use of Force Cage it to hold someone long enough to kill them or their allies, this works FINE for that! It ALSO lets you let prisoners escape at need. Two for the price of one actually, you presumably can do something like cast it twice with the two locked to each other if you want REALLY inescapable, and Sorcerers have plenty of slots and pick spells at the time, so there's no big downside to that.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 12:19 PM
But is it crippled, the normal use of Force Cage it to hold someone long enough to kill them or their allies, this works FINE for that! It ALSO lets you let prisoners escape at need. Two for the price of one actually, you presumably can do something like cast it twice with the two locked to each other if you want REALLY inescapable, and Sorcerers have plenty of slots and pick spells at the time, so there's no big downside to that.

Come to think of it, it might just be a version of the spell that allows for new variants. The "book" version allows two variants: "barred with 6 sides" and "solid with 6 sides". Who is to say that Xykon didn't simply change it to "barred with 6 sides" and "barred with 5 sides"?

Solara
2006-11-15, 12:30 PM
Maybe it's the triviality of the issue that draws me to take things more personally than I would if it was a serious debate. I don't know. I do know that the hostility between posters here - for an example that I'm not personally involved in, take the pro- and anti-Miko partisans - makes me want to not read the forums. YMMV; I'm not trying to get anyone else to stop doing so.


I agree completely...the forums can be fun to waste time if people could just relax and not take every little detail so freaking seriously, but when it gets to this level I'd almost rather not be here, and in the past I've taken breaks for a couple of months at a time.

I'm already wishing I hadn't even bothered to read the last couple of pages of this thread...the whole forcecage issue was amusing to me before and this last strip let me have a good giggle at the expense of the posters who were obsessing about it, but now that they're being the reasonable ones and there's all this hostility and thinly-veiled contempt from some of the people on the other side I can't even enjoy it anymore.

I mean, no one likes obsessive nit-picking, especially in the middle of a game (though from my experience most rules lawyers are people who only want to twist things to favor their characters) but obviously in order to play you need a way to verify that everyone is playing the same game. That's what the rules are for, and Reinforcements post was a perfect example of why you need to do this, and I find it hard to believe he was dismissed so easily.

I mean, once you stop caring about the rules, is there that much difference in saying you 'whirl around and attack them all at once' and saying that you 'whirl around and kill them all at once'?

I honestly just think that if a person despises the rules and gets upset when they're enforced, they should just throw the dice out the window and write fantasy stories with their friends or do some freeform RP on a forum somewhere. (And don't ever try to play chess, or billiards or baseball...or anything else for that matter.) And of course there's nothing wrong with that...sometimes my friends and I play 'fast and loose' with the rules too, and sure it's a lot of fun, but it's always made clear beforehand whether we're playing a game or a story.

And of course it helps that I can usually trust my friends not to do annoying and ridiculous things... otherwise anyone who's ever tried to RP on the internet (or with a group of five year olds) knows how it goes. "I shot you!" "Hah, sorry but you missed!" "No way, I shot you and now you're dead!"

Whoever it was that said that the rules were the 'laws of physics' was spot on. They determine what can and can't happen in the world you've agreed to play in. Otherwise anyone who had a mind to could just fly up in the air and kill the dragon with one hit, and you've got the 'five year olds playing cops and robbers' problem all over again.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 12:41 PM
I agree completely...the forums can be fun to waste time if people could just relax and not take every little detail so freaking seriously, but when it gets to this level I'd almost rather not be here, and in the past I've taken breaks for a couple of months at a time.

I'm already wishing I hadn't even bothered to read the last couple of pages of this thread...the whole forcecage issue was amusing to me before and this last strip let me have a good giggle at the expense of the posters who were obsessing about it, but now that they're being the reasonable ones and there's all this hostility and thinly-veiled contempt from some of the people on the other side I can't even enjoy it anymore.

Spirited disagreement, yes. Contempt, not in the least.

And no, they are not being reasonable if they are equating the obsession over the forcecage issue and critique of such nitpicking in general with blatant rules abuses as some of the examples made here have suggested.


I mean, no one likes obsessive nit-picking, especially in the middle of a game (though from my experience most rules lawyers are people who only want to twist things to favor their characters) but obviously in order to play you need a way to verify that everyone is playing the same game. That's what the rules are for, and Reinforcements post was a perfect example of why you need to do this, and I find it hard to believe he was dismissed so easily.

It was the context in which his example was placed. The example was an extreme case of rules abuse; whereas the objections to rules lawyering were more in relation to the manner in which objections can be raised during a game and the reasons for which they are raised.


I mean, once you stop caring about the rules, is there that much difference in saying you 'whirl around and attack them all at once' and saying that you 'whirl around and kill them all at once'?

There is a rather big difference between that example and the nitpicking that was going on about what is essentially a parody comic.


I honestly just think that if a person despises the rules and gets upset when they're enforced, they should just throw the dice out the window and write fantasy stories with their friends or do some freeform RP on a forum somewhere. (And don't ever try to play chess, or billiards or baseball...or anything else for that matter.) And of course there's nothing wrong with that...sometimes my friends and I play 'fast and loose' with the rules too, and sure it's a lot of fun, but it's always made clear beforehand whether we're playing a game or a story.

I doubt that anyone was voicing contempt for the rules to the extent you are suggesting here. I know I certainly wasn't.


And of course it helps that I can usually trust my friends not to do annoying and ridiculous things... otherwise anyone who's ever tried to RP on the internet (or with a group of five year olds) knows how it goes. "I shot you!" "Hah, sorry but you missed!" "No way, I shot you and now you're dead!"

Whoever it was that said that the rules were the 'laws of physics' was spot on. They determine what can and can't happen in the world you've agreed to play in. Otherwise anyone who had a mind to could just fly up in the air and kill the dragon with one hit, and you've got the 'five year olds playing cops and robbers' problem all over again.

If you can play fast and loose, they are not laws of physics. Laws of physics are immutable and unbendable even to the the slightest degree. If you treat the game rules in that way, no comromise can ever be made for any reason. Thus, it was not spot on.

Evik
2006-11-15, 12:55 PM
Ahhh I love going on vacation and coming back to catch up on all the comics ive missed :D so much action so much comedy...I lOVE IT! :D

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-15, 12:55 PM
Okay,
Let's sit down with LordZ and play a game of Monopoly. He starts with $1 and the rest of get the combined GDP of the EU and the US. When he complains about the game being unfair, we will accuse him of rules lawyering and bury anything he tries to say in a mountain of replies so that nothing useful can be said about Monopoly, the weather, or Mountain Dew.
Haar

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 12:57 PM
Okay,
Let's sit down with LordZ and play a game of Monopoly. He starts with $1 and the rest of get the combined GDP of the EU and the US. When he complains about the game being unfair, we will accuse him of rules lawyering and bury anything he tries to say in a mountain of replies so that nothing useful can be said about Monopoly, the weather, or Mountain Dew.
Haar

Wow. What a strawman. This nonsense does not even touch on any of my arguments on the slightest level.

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-15, 12:59 PM
Nope.
My argument is that you spend so much time nit-picking anyone else's statements with twisted logic that no discussion can happen.

You are not a rules-lawyer, you are a forum-lawyer.
Haar

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 01:00 PM
I agree with Solara. I think she made some good points.

"Rules-Lawyering" is usually done for one's own advantage in the game. To be fair to the above posters, though, I usually like to play Monopoly and Scrabble according to the rules exactly as written but very few people play the games that way. Does that make me a rules lawyer? Nah, because I don't insist that others play my way.

I thought that Haarculaneaum made a good point in nitpicking the Force Cage spell and it enabled me to learn more about the D&D rules.

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 01:04 PM
Nope.
My argument is that you spend so much time nit-picking anyone else's statements with twisted logic that no discussion can happen.

You are not a rules-lawyer, you are a forum-lawyer.

"Twisted logic"? If I point out that someone is wrong and explain why in an honest manner and without fallacy, that is not "twisted". A strawman fallacy, however, is: I did specifically state that discussions of the rules between players and DM are important and that abuses are unwarranted, and thus, when you claim the above, you are distorting my position.

Arguments and discussions are precisely about finding what is wrong with one position, so that one may know that the other is accurate.

EDIT: that the other may be more accurate to be precise.

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-15, 01:07 PM
Tinny --
I don't know if you're the first one to have said this (it's the first time I remember reading it) but it bears repeating:

"Rules-Lawyering" is usually done for one's own advantage in the game"

to which I would add -- debating literature (or genre fiction) is not rules-lawyering.

Thank you,
Haar

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 01:07 PM
"Rules-Lawyering" is usually done for one's own advantage in the game. To be fair to the above posters, though, I usually like to play Monopoly and Scrabble according to the rules exactly as written but very few people play the games that way. Does that make me a rules lawyer? Nah, because I don't insist that others play my way.

Wherein lies the distinction between a player and a rules lawyer.


Tinny --
I don't know if you're the first one to have said this (it's the first time I remember reading it) but it bears repeating:

"Rules-Lawyering" is usually done for one's own advantage in the game"

to which I would add -- debating literature (or genre fiction) is not rules-lawyering.

If you argue that way about Literature because of game rules, then yes it is.

Haarculaneaum
2006-11-15, 01:08 PM
But if you are 1) unwilling to admit that you might be wrong
or
2) unwilling to see anything from the other side's POV
then you are not debating, you are hammering with words.
Haar

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 01:10 PM
Tinny --
I don't know if you're the first one to have said this (it's the first time I remember reading it) but it bears repeating:

"Rules-Lawyering" is usually done for one's own advantage in the game"

to which I would add -- debating literature (or genre fiction) is not rules-lawyering.

Thank you,
HaarSolara said it above. I was thinking along the same lines but she put my thoughts into words (Thanks, Solara!)

Lord Zentei
2006-11-15, 01:14 PM
But if you are 1) unwilling to admit that you might be wrong
or
2) unwilling to see anything from the other side's POV
then you are not debating, you are hammering with words.
Haar

I am perfectly willing to see that others are right and that I am wrong; I have conceded a number of points since joining this forum. However, for that, you must convince me - and if your arguments don't cut it, well...

Indeed I have agreed that abuses of the rules are not to be tolerated in this very thread, as you would see if you'll read it more carefully. That particular disagreement was based on a misunderstanding on the definition of rules lawyering; hence the above post of yours was a strawman.

The Hammer of Thor
2006-11-15, 01:34 PM
I love it. 'Xykon's moderatly escapable crystal ball'
'Won't some hobgoblins die of exhaustion on the march?'
And it looks like Xykon has a very cunning plan. I have no idea what it is. And Redcloak has definatly got more of a spine since Dorukan's Dungeon.

Wrecan
2006-11-15, 01:52 PM
Xykon is a sorcerer, right? He only gets so many spells that he can ever know, period. Why waste one of those slots on a crippled spell?
Under the rules, when a sorcerer increases in level, any sorcerer over fourth level can swap a known spell with a knew spell.

chibibar
2006-11-15, 02:36 PM
ok... here is my stance on the "rules of the game"

You always have to look at the original rules and how does it apply.

People keep bringing up rules like monopoly and other boardgames. I own a nice collection of board games and VERY few if any allow "modification of the rules" and thus in order to play the game fair, you have to follow the rules. Of course there are optional of the rules that you can use in conjunction of a game.

Sports - this is a sport of competition, winning and losing, and to be fair must have rules. Each type of sports have referees that will make judgement if a play/action break any rules etc etc.... but you just don't add new rules without a comittee agreeing to it (and no rules on the fly)

Gaming rules on the other hand DOES allow, rules on the fly, why? because the basic rules allows it. Since we are just playing with a group of friends (say no larger than 8 people) then it is up for those 8 people if they are going to change the rules. If no one can decide then you can go with the given rules of the game (books) or GM ruling (also allow via the original rules) aka House rules.

There isn't a limit on how much changes a GM can make, but unless a GM can't alter the rules properly or totally change up something (i.e. changing force cage to be made of wet noodles in a shape of stars) then it is a totally different thing than say..... forcecage with only 5 sides instead of 6...

And yes.. I agree that "Rule-Lawyering" is ALWAYS played to be your advantage (hence lawyers right?) but still have to be agree by the consensus (all players)

In the spirite of this comic, the only players AND GM is Rich. This is his story and his game. Rich can have as many house rules and changes as he sees fit. Just like any gaming session the GM has pretty much the ultimate control. If you don't like it... in terms of comic- don't read it, in terms of gaming - don't let that person GM again or play D&D with that person....

fangthane
2006-11-15, 02:50 PM
A few things.
First, loved Quest Buy - I'm assuming the MitD would have asked Xykon to look at the widescreen scrying devices, since it (and the roaches) seemed to enjoy them so much in Dorukan's dungeon.
Second, I'm still highly disappointed in the Forcecage debacle, and despite what some people seem to be all-too-ready to claim, no this does not "tell us off" in any way who were arguing the spell doesn't work that way. In the case of most modified spells, the change is minor and unobtrusive, except Control Weather in which case it was divinely mandated. Fair enough. Xykon's spell should have been called "Forcebox" or something slightly different though; standard modifications of spells usually involve duration, range, area and the like; altering a spell specifically designed to be an escapeproof shell and making it appear to still be the original spell is, as I said before, dirty pool.

Anyhow, as I've said before, one egregious misrepresentation in this many strips is forgivable, but I still maintain that this was sloppiness covered up (based at least in part on the Giant's admission that the original Forcecage strip was re-done twice due to crashes) after the fact. I do think he'd originally intended things to be escapable, but I think he put in Forcecage before he'd fully thought things through, and then had to 'fix' things.

Now, to the predictions.
Xykon will not find the gate through Miko. Miko, on arriving and telling Shojo (or Hinjo, or someone in some kind of authority in the SG) about the incoming assault force (she may not know the army's size but she knows one is coming) will find out that the OotS has already been and gone, will take off (either teleporting or riding) to Girard's gate after the OotS and provide no useful intel to our skeletal pal. That's his problem, for encountering the ONE member of the SG that no other member wants to be near. Since I don't expect the OotS to be there when Sabine arrives, I have to assume they leave before she (or Xykon) arrives.

chibibar
2006-11-15, 03:09 PM
A few things.
First, loved Quest Buy - I'm assuming the MitD would have asked Xykon to look at the widescreen scrying devices, since it (and the roaches) seemed to enjoy them so much in Dorukan's dungeon.
Second, I'm still highly disappointed in the Forcecage debacle, and despite what some people seem to be all-too-ready to claim, no this does not "tell us off" in any way who were arguing the spell doesn't work that way. In the case of most modified spells, the change is minor and unobtrusive, except Control Weather in which case it was divinely mandated. Fair enough. Xykon's spell should have been called "Forcebox" or something slightly different though; standard modifications of spells usually involve duration, range, area and the like; altering a spell specifically designed to be an escapeproof shell and making it appear to still be the original spell is, as I said before, dirty pool.

Anyhow, as I've said before, one egregious misrepresentation in this many strips is forgivable, but I still maintain that this was sloppiness covered up (based at least in part on the Giant's admission that the original Forcecage strip was re-done twice due to crashes) after the fact. I do think he'd originally intended things to be escapable, but I think he put in Forcecage before he'd fully thought things through, and then had to 'fix' things.

Now, to the predictions.
Xykon will not find the gate through Miko. Miko, on arriving and telling Shojo (or Hinjo, or someone in some kind of authority in the SG) about the incoming assault force (she may not know the army's size but she knows one is coming) will find out that the OotS has already been and gone, will take off (either teleporting or riding) to Girard's gate after the OotS and provide no useful intel to our skeletal pal. That's his problem, for encountering the ONE member of the SG that no other member wants to be near. Since I don't expect the OotS to be there when Sabine arrives, I have to assume they leave before she (or Xykon) arrives.

My question would why would Rich (or Xykon) would have to change the name of the spell?? it is not mandate that X spell name HAS to be name that way..

I can just rename fireball into matchstick for all I care and keep the same effects. Maybe Xykon wanted to keep the same name so anyone paying attention or have some rank in spellcraft (say level 1) going.. oh forcecage... dang it.. I'm stuck for 2hour/level

I mean if Xykon change the "word of powers" to "Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage" I'm sure Miko would have pick that up.

Aliquid
2006-11-15, 03:27 PM
I still maintain that this was sloppiness covered up (based at least in part on the Giant's admission that the original Forcecage strip was re-done twice due to crashes) after the fact. I do think he'd originally intended things to be escapable, but I think he put in Forcecage before he'd fully thought things through, and then had to 'fix' things.I think this is the exact mindset that has caused things to get into heated arguments.

To be arrogant enough to insist that the Giant was "sloppy" based on an unfounded assumption is an inappropriate thing to say. Basically you are insulting the Giant without any real evidence. This is disrespectful, and it quickly antagonizes many posters.

Maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. Even so, it is proper etiquette to give the Giant the benefit of the doubt rather than insulting him on the boards.

Goofy
2006-11-15, 03:45 PM
Re: Rules lawyering
I've had two very relevant experiences that I'd like to share:

1. I was in a group where most of the players were very rules-conscious. The DM, however, liked using "artistic license" to a point where it upset those of us that preferred a more by-the-book approach. We talked to him as a group and he modified his style for us. As a result, he used more by-the-book mannerisms to get the effects he wanted while allowing us the comfort of knowing how things would work when a situation came up. Rules lawyering was the right choice then. The DM was a little upset that he couldn't do some of the things he wanted, but the players were happier.

2. I was in another group where the players were not so rules-conscious. There were a few times I wanted to say, "but it doesn't do that," but I saw that the other players didn't seem to care, so I kept to myself. I was a little upset that some things were more unpredictable than I expected, but everyone else was better off, so I didn't mind too much.

Rules lawyering for the win and for the lose. Your group may vary.

chibibar
2006-11-15, 04:19 PM
Re: Rules lawyering
I've had two very relevant experiences that I'd like to share:

1. I was in a group where most of the players were very rules-conscious. The DM, however, liked using "artistic license" to a point where it upset those of us that preferred a more by-the-book approach. We talked to him as a group and he modified his style for us. As a result, he used more by-the-book mannerisms to get the effects he wanted while allowing us the comfort of knowing how things would work when a situation came up. Rules lawyering was the right choice then. The DM was a little upset that he couldn't do some of the things he wanted, but the players were happier.

2. I was in another group where the players were not so rules-conscious. There were a few times I wanted to say, "but it doesn't do that," but I saw that the other players didn't seem to care, so I kept to myself. I was a little upset that some things were more unpredictable than I expected, but everyone else was better off, so I didn't mind too much.

Rules lawyering for the win and for the lose. Your group may vary.


I like this :) this is a good explanation.

I have play in conventions where EVERYTHING must be within the rules and no exceptions... but my gaming group (for 10+ years) we learn and adapt rules from old version until now.. some even grandfather in :)

nagora
2006-11-15, 05:10 PM
... obviously in order to play you need a way to verify that everyone is playing the same game.

Only with strangers. In a normal group that's the DM's job. Idealy, the players should not even know what the rules are, they should just be playing their roles. As long as the DM is consistant (eg, ALWAYS requiring a saving throw Vs death when falling to the max 20d6 damage, or ALWAYS allowing assassination rolls by any character against a helpless opponent) then that's fine.

The rules should be treated as suggestions. In fact, they must be or they would be infinite.

LurkerBeneath
2006-11-15, 05:28 PM
D'oh! I was reading the comic and after all this time it finally hit me that :mitd: is confused about everything because he's "in the dark" figuratively as well as literally. Clever pun, Giant!
-LB

Tiako
2006-11-15, 05:52 PM
Nonsense. I personally can walk 4 miles/6 km in an hour, and keep that pace up for 4~5 hours without stop.
there are logistical difficulties that make this far beyond that. First, Xykon needs some form of siege supplies if he wants to do anything. Second, he is just the sort of lych that he would require an entire throne, and assuming it is made out of gold, then that's going to weigh them down. Third, you can't just march four to five hours without stopping if you want an effective fighting force at the end. I don't know hobgoblin eating habits, but they need to rest sometime. An army of 300,000 is very different than simply 30,000 beings.


The hobgoblins are not really disorderly, and the Roman figure was time-averaged over a long period, not a brief spurt of marching, was it not?
Yeah, but I'm assuming that hobgoblins can't march as well as humans, so if the Roman could keep that up for a week or so, then I guess the hobgoblins could do that for a day. Also, remember that you need an effective fighting force at the end, so you can't drive them into the ground. Xycon does have the advantage that he doesn't have to worry about the sick and wounded.

Of course, this is all void, because any city that has a sophisticated waring system like the beacons but doesn't require regular check ins deserves to fall, and it seems that Azure City doesn't have that system.

Dear God, I'm actually analyzing the strategic systems of a webcomic.

infiniteviking
2006-11-15, 05:57 PM
Brilliant, Giant! The whole comic is great, but that bit in the middle with Redcloak and Xyklon laughing is hilarious.

Kish
2006-11-15, 05:59 PM
Yeah, but I'm assuming that hobgoblins can't march as well as humans,

Why exactly are you making this weird assumption?

Because they're Small? No, they're Medium. Because they have Chaotic alignment tendencies? No, they have Lawful ones. Because they have a lower average Constitution than humans? No, they have a racial +2 Constitution. Because they're known for being undisciplined? No, as Redcloak noted military discipline is almost an obsession for hobgoblins. The only reason I can think of is "they have orange skin and fangs."

Doug Lampert
2006-11-15, 06:12 PM
Why exactly are you making this weird assumption?

Because they're Small? No, they're Medium. Because they have Chaotic alignment tendencies? No, they have Lawful ones. Because they have a lower average Constitution than humans? They don't. Because they're known for being undisciplined? No, as Redcloak noted military discipline is almost an obsession for hobgoblins. The only reason I can think of is "they have orange skin and fangs."
They have the same base move as humans. They're more dexterous and higher Con than humans on average. They have darkvission and no disability in sunlight so they need less daytime used to set and break camp. As pointed out (repeatedly) they are Usually Lawful Evil, which means that a Hobgoblin army is probably MORE organized than ANY human army would be with the same tech.

It's gotta be the skin and fangs, because there's no reason other than silly prejudice for anyone to think Hobgoblins would be slow on the march.

Broadly BtB there is no reason whatsoever that Hobgoblins shouldn't march humans into the ground, and under the rules they will.

Claims that they need siege engines are nonsense, they have a high level sorcerer, what wall? Xykon's spells utterly dwarf the damage that any reasonable collection of siege enginees could do in a week.

And if they still have problems they have flying Zombies to help gain a lodgement.

DougL

Maratanos
2006-11-15, 06:21 PM
Maybe we're working on different definitions here, then. I would have defined rules lawyering to be "objecting to how the DM was doing something in the game, because it didn't match the agreed-upon rules". Although this behavior can sometimes cause problems, I think there's a legitimate place for it at the gaming table.

If you're going to say "objecting is sometimes good, and it's sometimes bad, and it's only rules lawyering when it's bad", then okay, I guess rules lawyering would be bad under that definition. Doesn't seem like a very useful definition, though.

Unfortunately, I think that you are making an unspoken assumption, namely that the agreed-upon rules are the same rules you'll find in the SRD and the books you buy. And this is baseless. Players can, believe it or not, agree upon rules that are different from those that are found in the rulebooks, and they're STILL the "agreed-upon" rules.

By the way, if that's going to be your definition of "rules-lawyering," you really need a new name for it. It's got all the wrong connotation for that definition. It just doesn't work.

inky13112
2006-11-15, 06:58 PM
meh. the only thing i didn't like about this instalment was the "escapable forcecage" bit. it wasn't the first occurance of an in-comic response to forums discussions, but it was the most obvious one so far... and these things annoy me, somehow. i kinda feel the Giant shouldn't be reading these forums any more at all, because spoilerized or not, he'll read those posts, and they will affect him and thus affect the comic. then again... it's his comic, his forum. who am i to judge?

otherwise, it's again more lovely oots goodness. the bad guys are actually responsible for more laughs-per-appearance than the good guys. ("you should've seen the look on yor skull"... priceless)

I don't actually think this was a response to what the people on the forum said. Instead those people jumped the gun complaining when in fact he had already come up with a reason why and they weren't patient enough to wait one day and see that everything was taken care of. After all the Giant plays DnD and he's not likely to think force cage can be escaped like Miko did and had a preplanned explanation for how she got out. Just my humble opinion.

Solara
2006-11-15, 07:04 PM
I agree with Solara. I think she made some good points.


Thanks. :)


To be fair to the above posters, though, I usually like to play Monopoly and Scrabble according to the rules exactly as written but very few people play the games that way. Does that make me a rules lawyer? Nah, because I don't insist that others play my way.


We do that in my family all the time, but of course everybody is clear on how the game is going to be played before they start. I don't really see 'house rules' as bending the rules so much as making new ones, that are meant to be followed just as rigidly as the old ones. (Like you I don't care how another group might choose to play somewhere else, but it is important to me that the people sitting around my table are playing the same way.)

Using Monopoly as an example, my cousin and I usually play a variation where before the game starts we shuffle up all the properties and deal them out. This is a given with us, but if I was playing with someone else I would assume we were playing by the instructions in the box unless we agreed to something different...obviously I'm not going to just start playing that way and then accuse the other person of ruleslawyering if they protest.

And just because my cousin and I might decide to make drastic changes to the game in one area, it doesn't mean I can claim there was an earthquake and take away all his hotels, or that he can help himself to the money in the bank any time he feels like it.

There are still rules and when you play a game with someone there's an unspoken agreement that you're going to follow them. Otherwise the outcome of any game could just be decided by whoever can yell "I win!" the fastest.

Maratanos
2006-11-15, 07:26 PM
Otherwise the outcome of any game could just be decided by whoever can yell "I win!" the fastest.

Ah! But some games ARE won by that method! Mostly those are the weirder ones, like Mao or Nomic, though...

Tiako
2006-11-15, 09:29 PM
Why exactly are you making this weird assumption?
Evidently because I got my goblinoids confused. My bad. I thought they were chaotic, which would hurt marching abilities significantly, as well as short, which has obvious effects. Again, my bad. So, I give them twenty to twenty five over a very short amount of days (I overestimated the Roman abilities a tad).

But, uh, fangs could interfere with breathing...maybe. Not that I;m hedging or anything...


Claims that they need siege engines are nonsense, they have a high level sorcerer, what wall? Xykon's spells utterly dwarf the damage that any reasonable collection of siege enginees could do in a week.
Looking at Xykon's personality, I think he would far rather have his cronies do the dirty work than actually doing anything himself. Sure, he could just destroy the gates himself, but he would rather hurl a few battalions of hobgoblins a them to create the extra drama.

TinSoldier
2006-11-15, 09:31 PM
They definitely have siege engines. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

Ludekk
2006-11-15, 10:04 PM
Maybe we're working on different definitions here, then. I would have defined rules lawyering to be "objecting to how the DM was doing something in the game, because it didn't match the agreed-upon rules". Although this behavior can sometimes cause problems, I think there's a legitimate place for it at the gaming table.

If you're going to say "objecting is sometimes good, and it's sometimes bad, and it's only rules lawyering when it's bad", then okay, I guess rules lawyering would be bad under that definition. Doesn't seem like a very useful definition, though.

I've been watching you for a thousand years :xykon:
:smallsmile:

No, just kidding, but I've been watching this debate enough. Here are my two cents:
In Czech Republic, we have a local lightweight version of DnD, it's called Dragon's Lair. The point is, that the rules state somewher, that when in doubt, the DM has the truth. And it has great self-repair mechanism too. When you don't like the style of that DM, you just don't play with him. Another one gets the torch...
You see? It depends on the people, not on the rules. If you are rules lawyer then go find similar ones, if you like it. But as seen on this forum, you are not just like that. You actually thrive on such flame wars (in-game or in-forum). So stop filling these pages with stuff. I don't like scrolling trough all this rubbish.

To the comic: Well, this was really good series, especially the last comic. Hope it will get even better.

Grey Knight
2006-11-15, 10:48 PM
When I catch that bard, I'm gonna introduce him to my favourite dagger. Fatally.

Hallavast
2006-11-15, 11:02 PM
If the Giant planned this before all the ranting about forcecage (which I doubt), then this is brilliant.

If he just kinda chucked this one together after all the complaining was seen, then it's still a good cover-up.

Nice job, Giant.

fractal
2006-11-16, 12:28 AM
You see? It depends on the people, not on the rules. If you are rules lawyer then go find similar ones, if you like it. But as seen on this forum, you are not just like that. You actually thrive on such flame wars (in-game or in-forum).
No, actually, I really don't like flame wars, which is why I stopped posting in this thread. I do like discussions... but those generally involve fewer personal attacks.

Anyway, the short explanation behind my original post, in D&D terms, is that it felt like the Lawful-Neutral posters were being unfairly maligned by the Chaotic-Neutral posters, and so I was trying to present a reasoned explanation of the Lawful side. Go back and read it, if you like, I think it's towards the bottom on page 5.

I've been trying to use a morally-neutral definition of rules-lawyer; keep that in mind when reading my posts. I don't think the people complaining about Forcecage were in it for personal gain, or trying to harm anyone else.

Hallavast
2006-11-16, 01:40 AM
No, actually, I really don't like flame wars, which is why I stopped posting in this thread. I do like discussions... but those generally involve fewer personal attacks.

Anyway, the short explanation behind my original post, in D&D terms, is that it felt like the Lawful-Neutral posters were being unfairly maligned by the Chaotic-Neutral posters, and so I was trying to present a reasoned explanation of the Lawful side. Go back and read it, if you like, I think it's towards the bottom on page 5.

I've been trying to use a morally-neutral definition of rules-lawyer; keep that in mind when reading my posts. I don't think the people complaining about Forcecage were in it for personal gain, or trying to harm anyone else.

Ouch. While I like your analogy, I have to say that bringing up an alignment comparison in order to PREVENT flaming is a bit counter-productive.

As to your alluded-to earlier statements. I agree. The comic is based on a certain well defined rules structure. If the Giant creates a sudden deviation from the rules without precedent or explanation, then criticism that reflects this should be voiced. This is especially important when deus ex machinas are used. I will risk using his forcecage as an example. The forcecage was expected by the rules that Rich uses to be inescapable by nonmagical means. However, Rich changed the rules on a whim (apparently) to allow Miko to easily escape the cage. It is my assumption that Rich realized that some people had serious complaints with this, and he made up an explanation after the fact and put it into a joke. Since this comic is a parody of dnd, the joke excuses the Giant's misstep. Again, I can only speculate on how much of this debacle the Giant actually had planned out, so I may very well be mistaken.

Unfortunately, sometimes posters become a bit over-zealous in defense of the Giant, and the debate gets particularly heated. This isn't helped by the fact that rules-lawyers are often just as over-zealous as their fellow posters.

This has been my professional diagnosis. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

KeiranHalcyon
2006-11-16, 02:06 AM
To the proponents of agreeing to a set of rules before starting play... Clrearly, you would not enjoy Fizzbin.

Korith
2006-11-16, 09:24 AM
I would on a Tuesday. Or was that the third Wednesday in March?

Goofy
2006-11-16, 10:33 AM
To the proponents of agreeing to a set of rules before starting play... Clrearly, you would not enjoy Fizzbin.

Is there something wrong with that? Then again, I may enjoy playing Fizzbin or Mao, assuming I knew and accepted that the rules are arbitrarily mutable. When I play D&D I assume the rules are not arbitrarily mutable.