Non-Broken Uses of Leadership [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lesser Naboo

2013-03-12, 11:50 PM

Arcanist

2013-03-12, 11:52 PM

If only there was a like button...

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/052/6/4/trixie_consulting_unicorn__a_study_in_pinkie_by_pi xelkitties-d4qffwh.png

Guizonde

2013-03-12, 11:53 PM

Leadership is a pretty infamous feat with it's potential for breaking the game. I'm looking for uses of it that aren't game-breaking, but still worth spending a feat on.

Example: One time, I played a bard. When I was in a city, I would have my followers disperse themselves in a crowd. When I gave the signal, they would break into song, with pre-planned choreography, so I could always have back-up dancers. My cohort sang in a low, Morgan Freeman-esque voice to compliment my character's higher voice. I got a hefty bonus on Perform checks.

thinking along those lines, i've got two straight off the bat:

-dwarven contractors, for those times you need to tunnel someplace quickly!

-spies. lots and lots of spies. perfect to keep you abreast of the latest movements of your opponents' armies!

i'm sure i could go on, but i'm hearing my dm scolding me from 30km away, so i'll stop now.

Silva Stormrage

2013-03-13, 12:02 AM

In combination with Landlord. Have your cohort and followers manage your stronghold and maybe make a small profit on the side (To be spent improving the stronghold of course :smalltongue:) This is actually something I like to do to reduce my characters strength as I like having a little mini base with minions.

Fyermind

2013-03-13, 12:02 AM

I wanted a ship once. Leadership first got be the contractors to build it who I later switched out for the crew. My cohort was the helmsman who actually took all the actions to control it and made the skill checks.

ArcturusV

2013-03-13, 12:04 AM

Of course there is local enforcers. I mean I consider it hardly "broken" to have some NPC thugs going around doing whatever you need while you are off. Taking care of the place, making sure the legs stay broken and the protection money keeps flowing in. Or keeping the riffraff out of the town that you took over. Even a leadership score of 11 should be enough muscle (With a level 7 something, and a gang of level 1s) to handle anything short of a military situation (Martial Law, Orc Hordes, etc). Even then it might still depending on what the level 7 guy is.

Usually my favored use of Cohorts and Followers. Less likely to get DM flak. And if you use it right break WBL over your knee and suddenly the DM thinks you're really powerful but he's not sure HOW you got really powerful...

babus

2013-03-13, 12:04 AM

I played a Thrallherd (it's basically Leadership) that used their followers to go Strategy Game. They were spread to all accessible parts of the kingdom, made diplomacy checks to make people like our group of adventurers, earned money, gathered information to find out what people have been saying about us, and, when the time came, served as an army to conquer the kingdom in the name of the fallen noble that everyone now thought was cool.

I micromanaged them to fit different roles like Surveyors, Mercenaries, Traders, Priests, and even Dancers. The DM seemed to enjoy it, and they never interfered in the day to day workings of the party.

Lesser Naboo

2013-03-13, 12:13 AM

If only there was a like button...

Would you mind if I sigged this?

WhatBigTeeth

2013-03-13, 02:28 AM

Mounts - adding levels to a paladin's special mount after multiclassing out, giving the fighter a pegasus to fly on, and so forth.

Arcanist

2013-03-13, 03:48 AM

Would you mind if I sigged this?

By all means?

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-13, 09:00 AM

Leadership is by far the best feat ever : P

Others already took the ways it is used in my game; the Paladin took it and combined it with Mount for his Pegasus (like medieval Knight Rider, go Kitt go!) http://www.navtones.com/media/image/real-kitt-start-scene-7545632.jpg

When I get to play (we have a rotating GM spot), I use my cohort but leave most of my followers running my business (I play an Eldritch Knight while my cohort is a kobold sorcerer; it's like an odd couple with a straight man and a zany man). While PCs get a 30 point buy in our game, cohorts get a 25 point buy, and followers a 20 point buy. Since it takes until 6th level to pick up the feat, and most adventures are geared for being on level, having mooks for Players means a lot of dead mooks; but it is only fair compared to villains always getting mooks. I don't like dead mooks, so most of them stay at home.

In our game, we even have storyline mooks; my players sort of collect them. They have an ex-cultist that they are reforming who acts as a security guard for their camp, a maid who was rescued from a brothel/bar abusive boss, an orphaned 8 year old who has no family, etc. It's an excuse for them to use resources on their mooks, and it gives players a sense that NPCs aren't just for looting or killing.

Vaz

2013-03-13, 09:04 AM

Remove the cohort. Keep a tab on followers. Enforce circumstance penalties for not being a true leader (spends more time adventuring than he does actualy leading).

strider24seven

2013-03-13, 09:11 AM

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-13, 12:08 PM

Generally anything that involves the cohort and followers never seeing combat.

I am a fan of the Giant Laser Cannon tactic:
If your DM lets you pick your followers' classes and doesn't enforce NPC-only classes for 1st level followers, make every 1st level follower a Warforged Warlock with the Eldritch Spear shape. Put them all inside a bag of holding and give them a standing order to ready an action to fire eldritch blasts at any available target that isn't a player or a cohort/follower of a player. Then simply open the bag whenever you need a laser cannon.

Edit:
Dragonfire Adept works for this too, and trades attack rolls for reflex saves, but is typed damage and much shorter range. Also doesn't produce lasers.

That would be... a huge DC for each one via Leadership in our game.

We allow a 50/50 mix of NPC classes and PC classes, according a +4 circumstance penalty for any core class. If we allowed out of core classes, we'd probably have a +8 penalty simply due to rarity.

mistformsquirrl

2013-03-13, 12:11 PM

I just like taking Leadership for a cohort - not because the cohort makes me more powerful* - but because I find it easier to roleplay if I can bounce conversation off an NPC under my control. It's hard to explain >.< but it seems to work really well for me.

*Though of course it does.

The Trickster

2013-03-13, 12:39 PM

My bard had a bar/tavern/theatre in the game's main city. I just had my guys run the place. It was also convenient to have a mage available to identify magic items and such, to which the DM didn't mind.

If you have a small group, using your cohort be the class no one wanted to be (healer based class, perhaps?) can also be a non-broken way to use the feat.

CTrees

2013-03-13, 01:19 PM

That would be... a huge DC for each one via Leadership in our game.

We allow a 50/50 mix of NPC classes and PC classes, according a +4 circumstance penalty for any core class. If we allowed out of core classes, we'd probably have a +8 penalty simply due to rarity.

This is why you go thrallherd. Look at your pool of believers. Determine which ones are of classes you don't like. Kill them. Wait 24hrs for them to be replenished (from where? Who knows - they come to you automatically after 24hrs). You don't even take a penalty for dead followers/believers. Look at the new group, and repeat until you have a collection you like.

EDIT: corrected, thanks. It's been awhile.

Requiem_Jeer

2013-03-13, 01:25 PM

Actually, Thrallherd doesn't get ANY penalty for killing his followers. At all.

Talionis

2013-03-13, 03:19 PM

If you have a small group, using your cohort be the class no one wanted to be (healer based class, perhaps?) can also be a non-broken way to use the feat.
I agree with the above. It can be a good way to get a skill monkey/cleric, if your DM thinks you need one.

Sometimes if you play a really bad class such as Samurai or Monk and the rest of your group are tier 1- 3, and you want to have your package get back up to competitive with the other players giving you a lower level character that is a caster or rogue may help make your group of talents feel relevant.

But I think its entirely fair for the DM to limit what the leadership cohort can be and what abilities he has access too. In general it should be about balancing your playgroup.

Ravens_cry

2013-03-13, 05:05 PM

A levelling mount is a nice use, though I prefer Wild Cohort. It's not as good, but it's more focused and you don't have to worry about what to do with a small village of commoners. Family members who adventure together can be broken, but can also work quite nicely if you don't do any of the cheesy tricks and actually treat as fellow characters as opposed to, say, magic item factories.

Silva Stormrage

2013-03-13, 05:14 PM

Generally anything that involves the cohort and followers never seeing combat.

I am a fan of the Giant Laser Cannon tactic:
If your DM lets you pick your followers' classes and doesn't enforce NPC-only classes for 1st level followers, make every 1st level follower a Warforged Warlock with the Eldritch Spear shape. Put them all inside a bag of holding and give them a standing order to ready an action to fire eldritch blasts at any available target that isn't a player or a cohort/follower of a player. Then simply open the bag whenever you need a laser cannon.

Edit:
Dragonfire Adept works for this too, and trades attack rolls for reflex saves, but is typed damage and much shorter range. Also doesn't produce lasers.

I could see this tactic backfiring HORRIBLY if you tried it on a spell casting BBEG who has knowledge of the tactic. A slightly changed ray deflection where you can redirect the rays instead of just deflect them would be BRUTAL against this tactic. Still a humorous idea XD. Why would the warforged want to stay in a bag all day though?

Vaz

2013-03-13, 05:20 PM

Mind rape. He loves his bag he does.

Silva Stormrage

2013-03-13, 05:21 PM

Mind rape. He loves his bag he does.

I think their probably should be a penalty to your leadership score if you mind rape your own followers :smallbiggrin: Or maybe not. "PRAISE THE LEADER!"

Sith_Happens

2013-03-13, 05:37 PM

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-13, 06:08 PM

The bard player in my campaign is currently using Leadership to run:
1. A tavern.
2. An information network.
3. A crafting business that makes him 2000 gp/week (which probably falls under "broken uses," but whatever:smalltongue:).

His cohort (a Dwarf rogue, I think) is currently the bartender at the tavern, but is about to be made the manager of the 100-acre estate we just received. Which is also where most of his new 1st level followers are going to go from now on, since he's just hit the point where he has more of them than he knows what to do with.

So... the 2000 gp / week ... is a commune with the bard as the cult leader? Are they sewing soccer balls with their teeth?

My eldritch knight has a magic item business, but while all the apprentices have Craft of some kind, my character certainly doesn't demand any of their proceeds; the followers were attracted to create a "convenience store" with access to alchemy supplies, armor, weapons, magic armor/weapons/items, scrolls, etc. Everyone puts something up for sale in the store, everyone gets to benefit from cross traffic, and everyone keeps their own profits. My character wins because there is an in game reason why he can sell a magic item at least once a month at full price (something all the GMs in my group worked out as reasonable- we have an open GM policy).

A poor GM can let Leadership be broken in their game if they decide the followers mechanic means followers stay with an abusive leader because there is no way out. The Raw does not state that the NPCs are thralls... but it does hint that attracting new followers is more difficult if a leader has a habit of letting his followers die. That would also make me as GM start peeling off followers in droves if the NPCs were being taken advantage of.

ArcturusV

2013-03-13, 06:25 PM

Yeah, 2000 GP/week sounds excessive. Though I suppose it depends at just what point the campaign is at and just how you handle the idea of Wages and such. Also your DM not smacking you down logically for flooding the market. I mean sure you can MAKE however many a week, and such.... but there comes a point where it doesn't matter. There's no more Demand.

Take like, Alchemy for example. The average person doesn't need about 99% of the Alchemical items. You will always have a small bit of trade from the few people who do go out and commit violence and go into dangerous places where they might need Anti-Toxins, or Tanglefoot bags, etc. But if you're wanting to make serious coin you need to be supplying more everyday use items. This would be things like Tindertwigs and Everburning Torches. The problem with those is they aren't consumable. Once someone has one? Their needs for it are met unless something unfortunate happens (Thus racketeering, sell them stuff, have thugs you control steal it back, sell them the same one again). Otherwise you should hit the diminishing returns point where 99% of your business has just dried up because you met all the demands.

Which is why I tend to deal in simpler stuff that is lower profit threshold, but more sustainable. As an example, Farming/Ranching. It doesn't make the obscene profits right off the bat (Particularly if you PAY your followers), but there's always a market for it until some jerk high level Cleric moves in and Creates Food and Drink for everyone in the village every day. Even then you still have a market due to the desire for variety and such.

Or you go for criminal enterprises. When you're willing to break the law the sustainability of your followers (As long as they are capable enough to evade the law) increases quite a bit. Breaking legs is both high profit, AND sustainable. Well, more so than crafting. And with lower start up costs. Clubs are free.

nedz

2013-03-13, 07:28 PM

If only there was a like button...

Here you go
http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a640/NedzNedz/GitP/Like_zpse7d99021.jpg

TuggyNE

2013-03-13, 08:08 PM

But if you're wanting to make serious coin you need to be supplying more everyday use items. This would be things like Tindertwigs and Everburning Torches. The problem with those is they aren't consumable.

Why wouldn't tindertwigs be consumable? They're literally just matches. Same with nearly all other alchemical items, actually.

CTrees

2013-03-13, 08:10 PM

Here you go
http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a640/NedzNedz/GitP/Like_zpse7d99021.jpg

Why did I push it... I knew it was just a picture, and yet I couldn't help myself...

Arcanist

2013-03-13, 08:13 PM

Why did I push it... I knew it was just a picture, and yet I couldn't help myself...

To test your hopes and dreams only to dash them against the dust..

Archmage1

2013-03-13, 08:16 PM

Most amusing one I ever thought of, just because why not
You have a very high level wizard(sorc works better, but I think this is more of a wizard thing)
And a mage school. The students are, of course, your students.

They all have cooperative spell, allowing the possibility of sending the entire school out after some enemy(provided that enemy does not have sr)

A horde of wizards...
Not broken, unless abused.

Still, the image of a demon summoning going wrong at this school, and the entire school appearing to blast it with magic missiles... priceless.

ArcturusV

2013-03-13, 08:27 PM

Why wouldn't tindertwigs be consumable? They're literally just matches. Same with nearly all other alchemical items, actually.

Nothing really to suggest they are consumable. It's a stick that when you smack things starts fires. Like saying Flint gets used up when you start a torch with it. All it is, is just faster (Standard action to start a fire rather than a full round action). Might be the intention that it's a match. But from the description there's nothing to suggest either way. The tools it's compared to (Flint and Steel and a Magnifying glass) are both non-consumable items so that's always been the way I've seen it played. Though probably also because people don't want to go through a match inventory or something.

Though yeah, most adventurer gear is consumable. Though you can't really presume day in, day out most people are going to make use of Acid Flasks, or Tanglefoot bags, or even Thunderstones, maybe Anti-Toxins if there is a naturally occurring poisonous creature in the area where it might be part of someone's emergency kit.

UnjustCustos

2013-03-13, 09:19 PM

When you are pulling in 2,000gp a week then you need the Landlord feat. Call those 2,000gp donations, to be matched my an equal 2,000gp in taxes from the feat, and apply them to your follower's city. Now THAT is tax dollars hard at work.

Go away from your little town for a year long adventure and come back to a booming metropolis in the making.

Arbane

2013-03-14, 01:41 AM

This is why you go thrallherd. Look at your pool of believers. Determine which ones are of classes you don't like. Kill them. Wait 24hrs for them to be replenished (from where? Who knows - they come to you automatically after 24hrs). You don't even take a penalty for dead followers/believers. Look at the new group, and repeat until you have a collection you like.

Nuclear Dan? Is that you? (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=475)

My group's cleric has Leadership - the Cohort is a lower-level cleric, who is very helpful, the followers haven't really done much yet. (They're a collection of slaves we liberated a while back, currently trying to farmstead a territory we were given rights to.)

Shaynythyryas

2013-03-14, 03:29 AM

To me, feats like Leaderships aren't really "broken", they just don't have their place as feats you take and should be replaced by situational bonuses awarded by the DM for coherent actions.

For example, my PC and his group managed to turn a panicked capital of Amn into a well oiled war machine and defend itself against a massive invasion.
As the battle ended and all high political figures had flee the scene, my PC (with an insane CHA of 42) was offered the place of count.
It gives her the same benefits of a leadership feat, but situational and limited to this country.

TuggyNE

2013-03-14, 04:37 AM

Consumable digression:
Nothing really to suggest they are consumable. It's a stick that when you smack things starts fires. Like saying Flint gets used up when you start a torch with it. All it is, is just faster (Standard action to start a fire rather than a full round action). Might be the intention that it's a match. But from the description there's nothing to suggest either way. The tools it's compared to (Flint and Steel and a Magnifying glass) are both non-consumable items so that's always been the way I've seen it played.

Well, the name refers to generally-consumable stocks of tinder, which you have to collect more of when you run out; the description starts out "The alchemical substance on the end of this small, wooden stick ignites when struck against a rough surface", and never gives you any reason to suppose it can ignite and burn without being used up (unlike, say, an everburning torch); and it costs exactly the same as a flint and steel, which would make the latter wholly useless in almost every possible way if tindertwigs weren't consumables. Those seem to be three fairly solid reasons why it should be a consumable.

Though probably also because people don't want to go through a match inventory or something.

That's probably it.

Talionis

2013-03-14, 09:07 AM

To me, feats like Leaderships aren't really "broken", they just don't have their place as feats you take and should be replaced by situational bonuses awarded by the DM for coherent actions.

I feel this way as well. Leadership isn't per se a problem. Its what people do with it. Letting players control or even design NPC's can make for next to no problem at all.

Can you do broken things with Leadership, yes. But you could do just as broken a thing if you and someone else in the party makes your cohort a PC.

The real problem is action economy, and giving one player too many actions a turn. But I have played games where PC's routinely controlled two characters at the same time and they were not "broken" and everyone had a very good time.

So I would say its clearly another option to just allow PC's to have multiple characters or to allow them to control NPC's that you supervise the building of.

So I would agree that it wouldn't be too important whether you charge a feat or not. In fact, it maybe better for you not to charge the feat because then you won't feel bad if you take the Cohort away for certain missions.

hymer

2013-03-14, 09:16 AM

Are they sewing soccer balls with their teeth?

Let's sell'em cheese burgers!
That aside, I like that use of Leadership you describe. It meshes with the character, it gives you a clear advantage without being excessive, it helps build the campaign world... I like it!

Telonius

2013-03-14, 12:18 PM

My favorite one:

Way back before everybody realized it was a bad idea, I'd created a Vow of Poverty monk, who took the Leadership feat. We were running Shackled City at the time. While the cohort was nice, the best part was getting the Followers. You see, Brother Mordechai had chosen the Lantern Street Orphanage as the main destination for his charitable giving. So it seemed only natural that his fan club would be centered around there.

By the end of the campaign, he had a citywide network of Lantern Street Irregulars. He'd given so much gold to the "Mordechai Center for Orphans who Can't Monk Good (and wanna do learn to do other stuff good too)" that it had expanded into several local campuses teaching all branches of the Craft and Profession skill. Some parents were actively abandoning their kids, as being the best way to ensure a bright future for them.

Fun times. :smallbiggrin:

Guizonde

2013-03-14, 07:38 PM

ArcturusV

2013-03-14, 07:41 PM

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-14, 08:16 PM

Generally no. It's when you start using things that allow the NPCs you get from Leadership to do things far greater than their level 1 status might suggest that lets it get broken.

Circle Magic is the one I usually see mentioned, as suddenly all those 1st level characters means your level 6 caster can get access to level 9 spells.

Again, that seems more problematic for Circle Magic than Leadership. Considering that Circle Magic is specific to Faerun for the Hathran... um, that's additional material. In my mind, something is broken when it is directly contradicted or messed up based on the original context (core or non-core). The further away from Core you get in d20, the more weird things that can crop up.

A munchkin can break anything, and blame the system for making them do it : / I see a lot of people on this board pillorying d20 as broken but at the same time doing their best to treat all supplements as Core and declaring it all as terrible... I'm not directing this soapbox at you Arcturus (I've noticed you've been pretty level headed on these forums).

Karnith

2013-03-14, 08:32 PM

Again, that seems more problematic for Circle Magic than Leadership. Considering that Circle Magic is specific to Faerun for the Hathran... um, that's additional material.
Actually, Red Wizards get Circle Magic, too, and that class is in the DMG.

EDIT: Also, I generally like Simulacrum shenanigans to go along with my circle magic, because Simulacra are generally more useful than followers, but that's just me.

Fyermind

2013-03-14, 08:35 PM

The most broken things tend to come from a few select books. The players handbook, the Monster Manual, savage species (hi feral I'm looking at you), Fiend Folio, Frostburn, and Serpent Kingdoms in no particular order have I believe the most unbalanced things.

Examples of broken things would be polymorph, the lack of relationship between HD and power in monsters (resulting in very powerful monsters controlable at levels when they are stronger than individual characters, and weak monsters than still cannot be controlled or emulated until long after they become obsolete). The Feral template, Half Fey, Shivering touch, and everything in serpent kingdoms.

Karnith

2013-03-14, 08:47 PM

The most broken things tend to come from a few select books. The players handbook, the Monster Manual, savage species (hi feral I'm looking at you), Fiend Folio, Frostburn, and Serpent Kingdoms in no particular order have I believe the most unbalanced things.
Honestly, pretty much every book has something broken in it. Player's Handbook II gave us things like Celerity and Arcane Thesis, Player's Guide to Faerun gave us Incantatrix, Complete Warrior had the Hulking Hurler, Complete Divine had Divine Metamagic, Faiths of Eberron had Planar Shepherd, Heroes of Horror had Tainted Scholar (and taint in general, really), and Eberron Campaign Setting had the Artificier, just to name a few.

It's pretty hard to find a splatbook that doesn't have something silly in it (especially if we include the other aspect of brokenness, like Iron Heart Surge or the Truenamer).

Sith_Happens

2013-03-14, 08:55 PM

So... the 2000 gp / week ... is a commune with the bard as the cult leader? Are they sewing soccer balls with their teeth?

[Paraphrase: Is he even paying them or what?]

That's kind of what I thought when he told me about it, though I haven't gotten around to finding out the details. Might be funny to bring up during a session though.:smallamused:

When you are pulling in 2,000gp a week then you need the Landlord feat. Call those 2,000gp donations, to be matched my an equal 2,000gp in taxes from the feat, and apply them to your follower's city. Now THAT is tax dollars hard at work.

Go away from your little town for a year long adventure and come back to a booming metropolis in the making.

Seeing as the party was just given 100 acres and a keep as a quest reward, I was actually thinking of asking around to see of anyone has a feat slot to spare (because I sure don't:smalltongue:).

the "Mordechai Center for Orphans who Can't Monk Good (and wanna do learn to do other stuff good too)"

Here, have an Internet.

Some parents were actively abandoning their kids, as being the best way to ensure a bright future for them.

Fun times. :smallbiggrin:

That, on the other hand, is probably not the sort of outcome that jibes with an exalted character.:smalleek:

ArcturusV

2013-03-14, 09:00 PM

Well, I mean if I was going to list broken uses of Leadership?

Circle Magic would probably be the highest. It is, as mentioned, in the DMG, so a lot of players feel that it's available to them regardless of setting. In fact I tend to find, in my experience, players think that about a lot of things. I'm one of the few DMs I know who says things like "... No... no... You can't mix stuff from Eberron, Faerun, AND Krynn. You can have stuff from ONE of those."

But I'm of the mindset as well, that a lot of the stuff wasn't intended to be broken because no one really though "Huh... what if someone combines our Eberron stuff with Faerun stuff? Nah, they wouldn't do that, they're mutually exclusive campaign settings!"

Course that might be giving them too much credit, as well.

Anyway, after that? Just spellcasting in general. Even low level spellcasting can do a lot of neat stuff that you might not particularly want PCs to have mass access to. Particularly if you furnish them with scrolls/wands to effectively break their level 1 limitation. But even if you don't... there's a lot of very useful first level spells that you might not want a PC to necessarily be able to cast, for free, 12+ times per day.

Third would probably be (ab)using crafting/profession rules in order to try and break WBL by having followers just cranking out supplies for you/GP into your coffers without paying them for their labor at all. This isn't as bad but it can end up as bad when later in the campaign you realize every character is now level 7 with nearly accurate WBL, except the guy with leadership has WBL +2,000 for a few months of crafting/profession use. This isn't as heinous if you actually have to maintain upkeep costs for your businesses. Supplying your workers with food, homes, necessities of life, maybe a little luxury money too. But still can be somewhat powerful.

After that it's just not really broken in my view. And the third is only pushing it based on how people try to finagle the numbers for it or their use of taking everything from the Followers and giving them nothing in return.

Arbane

2013-03-14, 09:04 PM

In Pathfinder, a Witch with Leadership could break the power-curve pretty badly if they take the Coven Hex, a Hag as a cohort, and at least one other witch with Coven as a follower - it's an easy (much too easy) way to get access to all the nifty hag-coven powers.

UnjustCustos

2013-03-14, 09:15 PM

That, on the other hand, is probably not the sort of outcome that jibes with an exalted character.:smalleek:
Are you kidding? You are essentially giving kids open ended scholarships to a private school. That's awesome. And a tried and true practice. Back in the day parents would drop off kids at sumo schools just so the kid could get a meal daily.

Oh, might want to also look up the business rules. Starting universities and what not.

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-15, 08:23 AM

Actually, Red Wizards get Circle Magic, too, and that class is in the DMG.

EDIT: Also, I generally like Simulacrum shenanigans to go along with my circle magic, because Simulacra are generally more useful than followers, but that's just me.

Yeah, and I'm sure every game world has a nation called Thay as well...

The DMG specifically cites Faerun as the origin of the prestige class. This is called advertising, because the class is not in the SRD. So the prestige class has another prerequisite... Faerun. Just like the Hathran. Circle Magic is technically unique to the Faerun campaign setting. Even in the prerequisites, it says "Human from Thay." So tell me, aside from GM fiat, how are you going to build a character for Red Wizard without meeting this prerequisite to get Circle Magic and thus declare Leadership is broken?

I'll echo Arcturus above; it's up to GMs to decide what is available to their game world, but I'd be loathe to mix and match. The more books additional to Core, the more messed up combinations will become. Even the Crafting "abuse" is not possible if a GM simply plays the NPCs as followers and not thralls- who is going to fork over all their wages and earnings to a leader without some sort of religious motivation overriding common sense?

Telonius

2013-03-15, 08:39 AM

Are you kidding? You are essentially giving kids open ended scholarships to a private school. That's awesome. And a tried and true practice. Back in the day parents would drop off kids at sumo schools just so the kid could get a meal daily.

Oh, might want to also look up the business rules. Starting universities and what not.

Mordechai didn't actually run the thing, just provide all the funding. The elderly gnome lady who'd run the orphanage managed all the funds. The entire wealth of a high-level adventurer can do wonders for an endowment.

It was a pretty weird situation for him anyway. He was a lesser Drow to start with, raised at a monastery of Fharlanghn. When I came up with the character, I had no idea about what was going to happen in the campaign. (Shackled City spoilers...)
As part of the adventure path, you travel to Occipitus. One or more characters can gain the "Smoking Eye" template if they choose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of redeeming the plane and defeating the demon lord Adimarchus, the former ruler of the plane. One of the benefits of it is that you're actually the heir of Adimarchus as far as the plane is concerned, and can eventually change the appearance and nature of the plane. Another benefit was that you register as both good and evil to spells, depending on what is most beneficial to you at the time.

So what I ended up with, was a character with Vow of Poverty who technically ruled a layer of the Abyss. An Exalted character that spells would treat as Evil. A weird looking Half-Drow with a glowing red eye that smelled faintly of brimstone, who's become the city's most important philanthropist and the best buddy of all the orphans in the area.

If I remember correctly, we had to explain all that to a Paladin once. He nearly had a seizure.

Wargamer

2013-03-15, 08:44 AM

Leadership is a pretty infamous feat with it's potential for breaking the game. I'm looking for uses of it that aren't game-breaking, but still worth spending a feat on.
One of the prerequisites of being a Dread Pirate is owning a ship of at least 10,000 gold coins value. I wanted to be said piratey class, so I took Leadership and made my Cohort and Followers the ship's crew!

Venger

2013-03-15, 09:10 AM

find that you can't buy high level magic items since the city you're in has too low a population

take leadership.

move your followers into the city

it's now large enough for the stuff you want

Honestly, pretty much every book has something broken in it. Player's Handbook II gave us things like Celerity and Arcane Thesis, Player's Guide to Faerun gave us Incantatrix, Complete Warrior had the Hulking Hurler, Complete Divine had Divine Metamagic, Faiths of Eberron had Planar Shepherd, Heroes of Horror had Tainted Scholar (and taint in general, really), and Eberron Campaign Setting had the Artificier, just to name a few.

It's pretty hard to find a splatbook that doesn't have something silly in it (especially if we include the other aspect of brokenness, like Iron Heart Surge or the Truenamer).
taint was originally from OA. if you want original broken content from HoH: dusk giant

Talionis

2013-03-15, 10:20 AM

I'll echo Arcturus above; it's up to GMs to decide what is available to their game world, but I'd be loathe to mix and match. The more books additional to Core, the more messed up combinations will become. Even the Crafting "abuse" is not possible if a GM simply plays the NPCs as followers and not thralls- who is going to fork over all their wages and earnings to a leader without some sort of religious motivation overriding common sense?

I will politely disagree. I have liked having more options. One of the things that have kept the game fresh for us without any more content coming for 3.5 has been the enormous amount of things that can be mixed and matched.

I guess with the internet, it has gotten easier to find the "broken" things other people have used prior, but my group isn't as savvy and often they come up with parts of some of the broken things all on their own. That discovery is priceless. They will often know about it for a while, build to it, then wait for a particularly nasty situation to unveil the combo.

Discovery is part of the game. Enormous complexity and overlap make for some wonderful discovery moments.

We've had to ban/nerf things afterwords. And people tend to understand if you let them play with the new toy for a little while.

Broken isn't bad. When something breaks you should come together as a group and fix it. Put it at the right power level for your group and setting. The main goal is fun.

CaladanMoonblad

2013-03-15, 03:35 PM

I will politely disagree. I have liked having more options. One of the things that have kept the game fresh for us without any more content coming for 3.5 has been the enormous amount of things that can be mixed and matched.

I guess with the internet, it has gotten easier to find the "broken" things other people have used prior, but my group isn't as savvy and often they come up with parts of some of the broken things all on their own. That discovery is priceless. They will often know about it for a while, build to it, then wait for a particularly nasty situation to unveil the combo.

Discovery is part of the game. Enormous complexity and overlap make for some wonderful discovery moments.

We've had to ban/nerf things afterwords. And people tend to understand if you let them play with the new toy for a little while.

Broken isn't bad. When something breaks you should come together as a group and fix it. Put it at the right power level for your group and setting. The main goal is fun.

Kudos for mixing/matching, but 3.5 is a quilt of supplements stemming from Core because several different authors were involved in the various projects and none of it will match up to a 0.0001% tolerance. I've seen enough griping on this board about how terrible this game is in terms of broken-ness... but really, it comes down to GMs making a case by case decision as to what content they want to include. It's the same reason I can't stand RAW interpretations that violate RAI; only a lawyer could be so obtuse to ignore the spirit just so they can complain : /

I see that a lot on this board (not from you per se), and it's like listening to Uncle Bucky at Thanksgiving complaining in one breath about death panels and in the next declaring that government better not touch his Medicare. The sheer cognitive dissonance should be maddening, but no, logic has no throne in a complainer's universe.

I've also seen people commenting in the d20 threads to play a different game and ignoring the question of thread posters; such Debbie Downers. D20 is by far the best game for any genre that I've run across in 20 years of gaming. Things are only broken if you want them to be, or it if something is willfully misinterpreted to be what you think it should be. Leadership is only broken if GMs and Players decide to ignore what is written and make the followers thralls without free will.