Alternatives to a Lycanthropic Raven

[fluke1993]

Evening all, long time lurker in the forums, posting my first post. I have a question, I would like to play a character that has the ability to transform into a raven (probably some sort of scout, with a level in Lion Barb for pounce and Ranger for the favored enemy progression feat) problem is, I don't like the +3 level adjustment that comes with the Lycanthrope template. I have taken a look at the Hengyoki (not sure if I'm spelling that right) race but my DM wont allow 3.0 content, only 3.5. It doesn't absolutely have to be a raven, any sort of small bird will fit, I just like the fluff.

[Jeff the Green]

Evening all, long time lurker in the forums, posting my first post. I have a question, I would like to play a character that has the ability to transform into a raven (probably some sort of scout, with a level in Lion Barb for pounce and Ranger for the favored enemy progression feat) problem is, I don't like the +3 level adjustment that comes with the Lycanthrope template. I have taken a look at the Hengyoki (not sure if I'm spelling that right) race but my DM wont allow 3.0 content, only 3.5. It doesn't absolutely have to be a raven, any sort of small bird will fit, I just like the fluff.

Druid (or wildshape ranger) can do it starting 11th level. The spell winged watcher does it for rounds/level. The Pathfinder lycanthrope is only +1 LA.

Also, hengeyokai were updated to 3.5 in one of the Dragon magazines.

[CIDE]

Evening all, long time lurker in the forums, posting my first post. I have a question, I would like to play a character that has the ability to transform into a raven (probably some sort of scout, with a level in Lion Barb for pounce and Ranger for the favored enemy progression feat) problem is, I don't like the +3 level adjustment that comes with the Lycanthrope template. I have taken a look at the Hengyoki (not sure if I'm spelling that right) race but my DM wont allow 3.0 content, only 3.5. It doesn't absolutely have to be a raven, any sort of small bird will fit, I just like the fluff.

Hengeyokai was updated to 3.5 in one of the Dragon Magazine articles. IIRC the only change was the type since the 3.0 type didn't exist in 3.5.

Edit: DRagon Magazine 318.

[LTwerewolf]

Hengoyakai were updated in an errata for 3.5, so they're technically legit 3.5 material.

[CIDE]

I double checked. Dragon Magazine 318 pg 34.


Hengeyokai: Hengeyokai are now creatures of the Humanoid (Shapechanger) type, rather than creatures of the obsolete shapechanger type. Remove their level adjustment.

[LTwerewolf]

it's in 318, along with a lot of updates for OA.

edit: CIDE got it

[fluke1993]

Thanks for all the help, eCookies for all of you. Sorry about deleting that post, realized like thirty seconds after I asked that people had already answered the question it was asking. (this is why you use the refresh button after you hit back)

[LTwerewolf]

Just make sure your dm still says ok. They can still say no just because.

[fluke1993]

Fair point. Now that their no longer considered non-humanoids, I don't see to much of a problem with it but I will get the okay on it.

[LTwerewolf]

You can also consider the afflicted lycanthrope template if you're starting out at an ok level. Especially if buyoff is allowed. You can put points in control shape and get an item with a bonus on there and there's little difference beyond a bit of DR.

[fluke1993]

I had considered that, the only problem with that is that even with control shape, I believe the DM can still take control of the character when they shift. I doubt he would do it


Edit: Upon rereading the rules, you're right, this wouldn't be a problem

The DM also ruled that I don't have to take any animal hit dice, so I don't put myself back even farther if I go with a born lycanthrope.

On the other hand Scouts get enough skill points that putting some into control shape wouldn't be to big an issue.

Edit: On getting an item for Control Shape, the only issue I can think of is that it might cause issues with encumbrance, but that could be solved by having a reasonably small item.

[LTwerewolf]

I had considered that, the only problem with that is that even with control shape, I believe the DM can still take control of the character when they shift. I doubt he would do it

The DM also ruled that I don't have to take any animal hit dice, so I don't put myself back even farther if I go with a born lycanthrope.

On the other hand Scouts get enough skill points that putting some into control shape wouldn't be to big an issue.

They can only argue that they take control of your character if you fail your will save or control shape check to prevent an unwilling change.

[fluke1993]

Since that's the case, if I can't do a Hengeyokai, I''ll probably do an aflicted lycan. Outta curiosity, what alignment do you think a Lycan-raven would be?

[babus]

Since that's the case, if I can't do a Hengeyokai, I''ll probably do an aflicted lycan. Outta curiosity, what alignment do you think a Lycan-raven would be?

While it depends on your character, one would generally assume Chaotic Neutral, or really anything besides Lawful. Unwilling transformation into animals doesn't tend to imply you're an event coordinator, though there are plenty of ways to do it if you're looking to be an exception to the general assumption.

[Jeff the Green]

While it depends on your character, one would generally assume Chaotic Neutral, or really anything besides Lawful. Unwilling transformation into animals doesn't tend to imply you're an event coordinator, though there are plenty of ways to do it if you're looking to be an exception to the general assumption.

Though that depends almost entirely on the mythos you're using. Ravens as carrion birds and psychopomps? LN. Ravens as tricksters? CN. Ravens as warriors against vampires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft)? NG.

[Answerer]

It seems like you have your question answered, so I just want to point out that Tome of Magic has a Large Animal (i.e. qualifies for Lycanthrope with a Medium or Large Humanoid) called Murder of Crows. It has the (Swarm) subtype and, as you might guessed, it's a flock of crows. And you can totally be a Were-Murder-of-Crows.

I've never gotten a good chance to use it. It's still an awesome concept and might fit with what you're looking to do.

[fluke1993]

@Babus: One thing about Afflicted Lycans, is that their alignment automatically shifts to an alignment that matches the cultural perception of that animal. This is why almost all RAW lycans are evil or neutral. Please note that this is not intended in any sort of condescending manner, it's just that I can't pick and choose my alignment like a normal PC and your previous post made it unclear as to whether or not you understood that.

@Jeff: I Don't know the specifics of the Campaign, but it is probably going to end up heavily featuring war, so atleast personally I like the whole "ravens as carrion birds" thing, since it falls neatly into the of ravens as harbingers of war. This could potentially end up with me having to go with something more like a hawk instead of a raven if my DM decides that this marks ravens as culturally evil. Of course you could make the argument that ravens fill the role of watchers in which case, maybe true neutral is appropriate?

@Answer: Now that could be kick-arse, though I'm not quite sure how some of the rules would work with that. What would the hybrid form look like. Or worse what happens if I shift into flock form and then loose half of my component flock?

[Jeff the Green]

In most cultures where ravens are primarily associated with carrion and the associated death and war motifs, they're generally not seen as evil. Something to be avoided, maybe, and gruesome, and terrifying, but not evil. Sort of like the Morrigan and the Baen Sidhe, or Kelemvor in FR.

[fluke1993]

Hmm, I think it's definitely starting to sound like LN or just plain N then.

[LTwerewolf]

As far as lycans being always neutral or always evil, check the MM. Bear=LG, Board= Neutral, Rat=LE, Tiger=N, Wolf=CE.

I'd call Raven either LN or CN.

[fluke1993]

While that is correct, I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate, I should have specified. When I said that almost all RAW Lycans are either neutral or evil I was referring to the entire Bottom 2/3s of the alignment table, not just specifically N and NE. This leaves only the LG Were-Bear as an exception which I believe falls under almost all. I apologize for the misunderstanding.


Onto more interesting matters, what do you think would happen to a lycanthropic raven swarm if it lost a significant portion of it's constituent beings and then reverted? Also what would happen to the characters intelligence while it was in that form? Would it have the hive mind feat?

[LTwerewolf]

If it lost a large portion of its constituents I could see reverting and finding you're missing limbs or something to that effect. Hardly in the rules, but it makes sense to me.

As far as the Hive mind, I can't imagine that would be the case.

[fluke1993]

Yeah now that I think about it, the Were-Raven Swarm is sounding less and less like a good idea. I can just imagine getting hit with an AOE spell and loosing half my body mass. The reason why I was curious about Hive mind was because i thought there was some weird rule involving swarms and intelligence/sentience.

[babus]

Yeah now that I think about it, the Were-Raven Swarm is sounding less and less like a good idea. I can just imagine getting hit with an AOE spell and loosing half my body mass. The reason why I was curious about Hive mind was because i thought there was some weird rule involving swarms and intelligence/sentience.

The Book of Vile Darkness has the Dark Speech Feat which allows you to make a Swarm Intelligent.

Also, yes on the alignment thing, I hadn't been aware.

I should note the alternative interpretation to lost mass is hit point damage, not actual loss of body, with healing actually making more crows. HP of a swarm is usually number of bodies, depending on the size.

[Pilo]

If you just want to turn into a raven, there is the Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) that can do it for a +1 LA.

Well, it is a hawk but you can ask your DM to adapt that.

[Vaz]

Yeah now that I think about it, the Were-Raven Swarm is sounding less and less like a good idea. I can just imagine getting hit with an AOE spell and loosing half my body mass. The reason why I was curious about Hive mind was because i thought there was some weird rule involving swarms and intelligence/sentience.

Take a wilding clasp with a Ring of Evasion.

However Swarms aren't available unless it explicitly says you can (Cityshape druid for example). Wild Shape specifies animal and swarms states animals at all all mentions of it. You can be an animal that makes up a swarm but you cannot be a swarm unless otherwise stated.