[3.5] Advice requested for Halfling Swordsage

[DragonSinged]

So I'm building a character for a new campaign (glee!)

The setting is Forgotten Realms (which is new to me), and I've decided to play a Strongheart Halfling Swordsage.

We're starting at level 4, with random-rolled stats and (this is strange to me) randomly rolled starting gear.

The stats I rolled up are as follows, with the stat I was thinking of assigning it to in parentheses:
17 (Dex, halfling bonus making it 19)
16 (Wis)
15 (Str, halfling neg making it 13)
13 (Con)
12 (Cha)
12 (Int)

Which is really not half-bad. Hit points rolled (not including Con bonus) are 8(first level) + 2 + 4 + 8

Random rolled gear is:

+2 Shocking weapon of my choice
Elixer of Love
Chain Shirt
Masterwork Artisan's Tools
Travel Cloak (Magic if Faerun pg 166, handy sounding item for a travelling halfling)
600 gold

Items can be sold back for half price, which is probably the fate of that potion.

Books I have access to are Core, most Forgotten Realms books, Book of 9 Swords, PH2.. I think that's about it. Maybe Races of the Wild?

So, based on the information provided, how would you build this Swordsage? Would you allocate the stats differently? What weapon(s) would you use?

Seriously considering ordering this mini (though would paint it differently) http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/halfling/latest/03433

By the way, I am trying to stick mostly to just straight Swordsage, though I am open to a build that crosses Swordsage, Warblade and Master of Nine (mostly because I don't have any experience multiclassing and would like to see what a build like that would look like.)

Sorry if this post rambles a bit, feeling a bit scattered today.

Thanks for the help!

EDIT: I would also greatly welcome feat selection suggestions!

[Seharvepernfan]

Your stats are perfect for what you rolled.

You got shafted on those items, imo. The weapon is powerful, but the rest is gonna hold you back a bit, I think. I would grab a darkwood shield for a small boost to AC, since you're probably not going to be two-handing, but if you go with TWF, scratch that idea. I'd turn that weapon into one of the shadow hand weapons, and grab the Shadow Blade feat.

Get assassins stance at your next opportunity, and maybe grab TWF. You can Wolf Fang Strike it for a while, but I think that ultimately, you'll probably go with TWF.

It's hard to go wrong with a ToB class.

[DragonSinged]

Swordsages aren't proficient with shields? Also, I have never actually used TWF before. My understanding is that that would eat many of my feats? Oh! That reminds me, I could definitely use advice on Feat selection, will edit the initial post to reflect this, thanks. :smalltongue:

So what weapons would you choose?

Additional note: Other characters in the group are a Bard, Cleric of Kossuth (burny), and a Fighter. Little bit of Tier disparity, I guess. Presence of Cleric & Bard make me not super-worried about over-optimizing (as long as I don't stray too close to super stinky cheese.)

[Seharvepernfan]

Swordsages aren't proficient with shields? Also, I have never actually used TWF before. My understanding is that that would eat many of my feats? Oh! That reminds me, I could definitely use advice on Feat selection, will edit the initial post to reflect this, thanks. :smalltongue:

So what weapons would you choose?

Additional note: Other characters in the group are a Bard, Cleric of Kossuth (burny), and a Fighter. Little bit of Tier disparity, I guess. Presence of Cleric & Bard make me not super-worried about over-optimizing (as long as I don't stray too close to super stinky cheese.)

You don't need shield proficiency if the shield doesn't have a check penalty, which the darkwood shield doesn't.

With shadow blade and assassins' stance, TWF might be worth it. You won't qualify for improved TWF for quite some time anyway.

I'd just use a dagger, personally. It's a shadow hand weapon, it can be thrown, and it can be easily hidden.

[RFLS]

Standard issue plug of the handbook in my sig. I should really get back to that some day... Anyway, there are a lot of good suggestions in there.

For your particular SS, I'd definitely recommend the TWF+Weapon Finesse+ Shadow Blade route.

[DragonSinged]

Thanks for the replies!

@Seharvepernfan (I need to read the Pern books again)
Ahh, it's been a while since I've played 3.5, and much longer since I played a shield-user. I am definitely intrigued by TWF, and my understanding of the Swordsage TWF is that most of the actual TW part of the F comes from maneuvers? To be honest, I am really hazy on how TWF works, if you (or someone) wouldn't mind posting an example round or two of how TWF might look with this character, that would really help me out.

In the situation of TWF, you would use dual daggers, then? Damage output wouldn't suffer too much from that? I suppose with Swordsages much of the damage is supposed to come from the Strikes, so the dagger in this situation is basically just a method of delivering the Strike damage?


@RFLS - Yeah, I've read your handbook through a few times, and I for one really hope that you continue to update it - lots of people seem to talk about Swordsages, but I haven't been able to find a single comprehensive guide. I could definitely much through character creation myself, and come out the other end with something fully playable, but I just worry somewhat about how much I'll be contributing to the party vs. the Cleric and Bard.

Again, if you have time to throw together an example round or two of what combat might look like with TWF+Weapon Finesse+Shadow Blade, I'd really appreciate it. Also, would that preclude taking Adaptive Style for the time being? Because it seems like that is really a feat tax for Swordsages.
Also, in your opinion, what would be the best weapon combo to go with?

Thanks again.

EDIT: Also, it bears repeating, I have heard people previously mention a combination of Swordsage + Warblade + Master of Nine, but am not really sure what that would look like as a build, how it would play starting from level 4, and what the end benefit would be over just Swordsage 20. Any explanations on that topic would be greatly appreciated.

[RFLS]

Let's see...starting at 4th level as a halfling. I'm assuming it's a standard halfling, and not Strongheart, although I would recommend that if it's still an option. Anyway, assuming standard halfling, you get the following:

(1) Weapon Finesse
(3) Two Weapon Fighting
(6) Adaptive Style
(9) Shadow Blade

Which is just not very helpful, at all. You're waiting for forever to have basic functionality. Anyway, the gist of it is that you really, really end up needing bonus feats from somewhere, and you need to be able to do your main attack routine consistently. Here's what I'd do:

Level 1: Warblade 1 [Adaptive Style]
Level 2: Monk 1 (Sleeping Tiger ACF) [Weapon Finesse]
Level 3: Swordsage 1 [Shadowblade]
Level 4: Fighter 1 [Two-Weapon Fighting]

This gets you the core feats for your build at the level you're starting at. You can pick up Wolf Fang Strike with your Warblade level, which will let you pseudo-pounce for a while. You also end up with really solid saves, especially (oddly) your Fort save. You can basically continue this with Swordsage levels for the rest of your build, or you can continue the dipfest. It also gets 2 of the 5 feat prereqs for Mo9, which are Adaptive Style, Improved Initiative, Imp. Unarmed Strike, Dodge, and Blind Fight. You can pick up 2 more of those with a 1 level dip into Cleric if you like, or just wait around for level 12 to get them normally.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I tend to recommend kukris for Swordsages, but that's just personal preference. Any of the standard TWF options work pretty well.

EDIT EDIT: Your standard attack routine would start with you in a Shadow Hand stance. You Wolf Fang Strike your opponent. The next round you hit them once and Tumble out, refreshing Wolf Fang Strike. At this point, the fight is either over or you should use Adaptive Style to re-pick your maneuvers (Remember, you can do this to both sets with the same action).

[DragonSinged]

As I mentioned in the original post, this is a Forgotten Realms, and I am playing a Strongheart halfling. I must say that bouncing between 4 different classes makes me very nervous, as I doubt that it would fly with the GM, nor do I want to suggest to him that he should do similar things with his villains. :smalltongue:
Other than the Strongheart bonus feat, I don't think I'll have any other ways to gain extra feats, and will not be using flaws.

I would be fine with multiclassing with just Warblade, and then later going into Mo9, if that is at all viable, because I think the GM will be less frowny upon my character if I keep it confined to one book as much as possible.

I suppose I could reason with him that Fighter and Monk aren't exactly overpowered classes, though.... I'll have to think about it, I'm not certain.

Your advice is good brain food!

[avr]

Bear in mind you don't have to use Wolf Fang Strike as your opener. In some situations Mighty Throw will work better. You're a Swordsage not a Warblade, you have options.

Master of Nine gives you a lot of 9th level maneuvers if you take it from 16-20. The downside is that you're really not going to have the feats available to enter it. TWF will keep your feat selection busy.

As a 4th level strongheart halfling you can get the basic 3 feats you want without multiclassing. Sticking with pure swordsage is a good idea because that gives you Assassin's Stance next level which is pure gold for TWF. Adaptive Style will have to wait until 6th level unless you can get a flaw approved.

[Seharvepernfan]

TWF is easy. On any full-attack, you make an attack with each weapon you're holding, at a -2 penalty each (if you're using light weapons, like daggers). With weapon finesse, you add your dex to the attack roll, not str. With shadow blade, you add your dex to damage in addition to your str, but the dex damage is considered "precision" damage, and can only affect creatures that a sneak attack could. In order to use shadow blade, you need to be using shadow hand weapons (like the dagger) and in a shadow hand stance.

When (if) you get Assassins Stance, and attack someone whom is either flat-footed, flanked, or any of the other sneak attack enablers, you add +2d6 damage to each attack, on top of all your other damage. That's pretty much it.

The thing is, you can't take weapon finesse at 1st level, since you don't have a high-enough base attack bonus. So, take TWF and Shadow Blade, then weapon finesse at third. Remember, you can use TWF with throwing weapons (like daggers), and Shadow Blade will still work with a thrown dagger as well.

Your attacks will actually be higher when you throw your daggers rather than use them in melee (though you need to be in melee to flank), so you might even consider quick draw at some point, rather than weapon finesse. Just a thought.

[Greenish]

On any full-attack, you make an attack with each weapon you're holding, at a -2 penalty each (if you're using light weapons, like daggers).And have the feat.


With shadow blade, … the dex damage is considered "precision" damage, and can only affect creatures that a sneak attack could.That's not true.


When (if) you get Assassins Stance, and attack someone whom is either flat-footed, flanked, or any of the other sneak attack enablers, you add +2d6 damage to each attack, on top of all your other damage. That's pretty much it. Well, there are other things TWFing swordsage does. Wolf Fang Strike allows you to use two weapons with a standard action, Burning Blade and it's improved versions add fire damage to all your attacks for the turn, Dancing/Raging Mongoose grant extra attacks, Pouncing Charge (or some other source of Pounce) allows full attack on charge, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip gives you a really silly sounding attack adds damage based on how many times you hit the enemy…


Your attacks will actually be higher when you throw your daggers rather than use them in melee (though you need to be in melee to flank), so you might even consider quick draw at some point, rather than weapon finesse. Just a thought.Bad idea if you ever want to use your strikes.


Mind, if you go TWF, it will eat most of your feats and cost you a fortune in magic weapons. It's still a pretty good combat style for a swordsage, but it is by no means the only option, or even superior to other options.

[Seharvepernfan]

And have the feat.

Thought it was granted.


That's not true.

No, it's not. I forgot it was a houserule.


Well, there are other things TWFing swordsage does.

I was referring to the feats mentioned.

Also, you can only attack one person with Wolf Fang Strike, but you can do it as a standard action - a limitation and a benefit, I'd probably use it even if I had TWF.


Bad idea if you ever want to use your strikes.

Yeah, a lot of strikes do require melee attacks, for some reason.


Mind, if you go TWF, it will eat most of your feats and cost you a fortune in magic weapons. It's still a pretty good combat style for a swordsage, but it is by no means the only option, or even superior to other options.

Can't argue with that, but at your level with your build, it's a pretty good tactic.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I'd strongly consider a Monk 2 dip. This would lose one Initiator level, but would get:

Flurry - Nearly functionally identical to TWF. Alternatively, you could get skirmish or decisive strike from various ACFs.
Two feats - So you can have Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style and a few free slots to use for combos or prereqs (between sub levels and martial schools, there are a good variety of options to choose with Monk slots)
Improved Unarmed Strike - In case you still want to go into Mot9
Evasion - a nice little ability on its own, which can also sub out for the sneak-attack-friendly Invisible Fist.

[DragonSinged]

Mind, if you go TWF, it will eat most of your feats and cost you a fortune in magic weapons. It's still a pretty good combat style for a swordsage, but it is by no means the only option, or even superior to other options.

First, thanks for all the advice. Second, if TWF isn't necessarily a superior option for swordsages, what else would you recommend?


@ WhatBigTeeth - would you suggest certain levels to take the monk levels at? I'm not really sure whether I'll end up following through on that, but it sounds like it might be a good option.

[Greenish]

First, thanks for all the advice. Second, if TWF isn't necessarily a superior option for swordsages, what else would you recommend?One-handed weapon or two-handed weapon. A reach weapon should come in handy. The damage comes from strikes, Insightful Strikes (the class feature), boosts, potentially from Shadow Blade (though it isn't quite as potent). Less synergy from stuff that adds damage to all attacks, more synergy with strikes, lesser feat/gp investment, less reliance on full attacks (which equals more mobility, more often than not). Free hand for popping potions and the like utility.

[Phelix-Mu]

Let me plug the halfling monk substitution levels, now that monk dip has been suggested. They are detailed in Races of the Wild.

The first racial substitution level exchanges Flurry of Blows for Skirmish. Now, granted since you aren't sticking with monk, it will never increase, but skirmish is an excellent mechanic to combine with standard action strikes (like the aforementioned Wolf-fang strike). Depending on your fighting style, this can be a very nice option. There are also a few relatively cheap items that improve skirmish, as you go on. This might combine well with some kind of AoO build with a spiked chain and tripping, made even easier with the very flavorful Setting Sun maneuvers.

The second monk racial substitution level gets you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. This opens up one of your character feat slots for whatever else you might want, and since Adaptive Style is key to most swordsaging, you could use more open feat slots.

There are a multitude of directions to go in, and I wish you luck.

[DragonSinged]

@Greenish - As a swordsage TWFighter are full-round attacks still fairly typical? I was somewhat under the impression that a lot of the attacks would still be strikes. Also, if I'm in assassin's stance with dual daggers, shadow blade, weapon finesse, and use, say, wolf fang strike, what's getting added to damage? 2x dex, 1.5x str, sneak attack? Or does sneak attack not apply due to it being a strike?

@Phelix-Mu - I must say the feats are tempting, though I'm nervous about regretting losing the initiator levels. I have RotW kicking around at home, I'll check it out tonight. That reminds me, though, I am definitely getting myself a trusty riding dog. :smallbiggrin: In your opinion, though, the benefits of the monk levels outweighs the swordsage levels lost? Also, which levels would you take them at?

(apologies for any weird formatting or spelling hiccups, tried editing, but this is from my phone, which doesn't love this site.)

[Shining Wrath]

Some random thoughts:
1) If you go into TWF, you will want Tiger Claw. I'd order the Disciplines you have access to thus: Diamond Mind, [Shadow Hand / Tiger Claw], [Desert Wind / Setting Sun], and very definitely last is Stone Dragon - because the maneuvers only work if you are standing on stone, which is a large drawback. TC is better than Shadow Hand if you are TWF, otherwise Shadow Hand is better.
2) If you dip something, dip two levels. This is because when calculating your initiator level, you get the level of the ToB class you are adding, plus 1/2 the level of any other martial classes, dropping fractions - so 1 level of Warblade and 1 level of Crusader gets you 0 IL, but 2 Warblade get you 1 IL as a swordsage.
3) There is much excellence in dipping Warblade as a Swordsage, because the saves are complimentary, and full BAB and D12 HD are helpful. Because of the initiator levels, you want to wait until half your swordsage levels lets you get good stuff as a Warblade, which is IL 3. So Swordsage 4 / 2 + Warblade 1 = Warblade IL 3, and WB IL 3 lets you take Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, which are both full of win.
4) You must take Adaptive Style as soon as your build allows, because without it you have by far the worst maneuver recovery method of the ToB.
5) If you do dip Warblade, you will have to keep your Warblade maneuvers readied distinct from your Swordsage maneuvers readied, as the recovery methods differ. Also, most DM will not let you take the same maneuver twice, once per class. Check with yours.

[Greenish]

@Greenish - As a swordsage TWFighter are full-round attacks still fairly typical? I was somewhat under the impression that a lot of the attacks would still be strikes.You could focus on strikes, but then you wouldn't really benefit from TWF that much, since most strikes just make one attack, and all of the strikes that allow full attacks are full round actions.

One alternative is to go unarmed swordsage (or just pick IUS as a feat) and get Snap Kick as soon as you can, since it can be used with strikes, unlike TWF. Snap Kick does require BAB +6, though, so that'll take a while to mature on medium BAB swordsage.


Also, if I'm in assassin's stance with dual daggers, shadow blade, weapon finesse, and use, say, wolf fang strike, what's getting added to damage? 2x dex, 1.5x str, sneak attack? Or does sneak attack not apply due to it being a strike?Provided the target is valid (not immune, within 30', no concealment, no Dex to AC or flanked), you can Sneak Attack with anything that requires an attack roll and deals damage, including strikes.

You'd add your Dex (from Shadow Blade) and sneak attack to both attacks, as well as 1*Str for the main hand and 0.5*Str for the off hand.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, so I am going to posit that a Swordsage does not have the BAB, feat slots, nor hp to stand in melee full time and TWF and thus I disagree with most of these suggestions.

I would get Adaptive Style and Finesse and Shadow Blade, sure. But... I would also grab Exotic Weapon Prof. (spiked chain) and fight with that. Take strike maneuvers and play as a skirmisher with tumble and Sudden Leap. Tiger Claw has very good strikes (you'll love Soaring Raptor Strike next level), Shadow Hand is mostly great for boosts and assorted things (cloak of deception, the teleport maneuvers) and of course Assassin's Stance once you level up and can get it. Before then, I like Child of Shadow more than Island of Blades. I'd suggest your other level 1 stance be either Flame's Blessing or Step of the Wind, both of which are situationally very useful.

Feel free to pick up some other disciplines, too. Mind Over Body to cover your poor fort save would be good to pick up eventually, and the Insightful Strikes can potentially be pretty good (mostly Greater, though, unless you're HEAVILY optimizing concentration). Distracting Ember is a nice cheap way to instantly get flanking. Counter Charge is a good defense and will always be useful because unlike the flawed-in-execution throws, it does NOT use the trip mechanic and all the baggage that brings (like...still facing small size penalties and still being limited to 1 size larger for what you can trip...). And never underestimate the re-decorating and trap disposal uses of Mountain Hammer!

For stats, I would switch Wis with Con for stats, but that's just my preference...

If you can get it, Staggering Strike feat from C.Adv. really makes the Assassin Stance shine (as does Craven, but that's a much more obscure book...)