OOTS #880 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[XanKrieger]

Wow, I get that Roy didn't believe that Durkon died and would rather have believed anything else. But to fool himself to the extent of seriously considering attacking Belkar, **** move Roy. **** move.

[psiryu]

Seriously thought Roy was going to kill Belkar. Glad he didn't.

[Lorin]

Ah, ninja'd. Well, that was quite a nice one. Poor Belkar.

[Domino Quartz]

Their reactions to the news of Durkon's death are sad as well.

[Dr. Gamera]

It turns out that Malack almost didn't need to Dominate them to get them to fight each other.

[Lrbearclaw]

I can understand completely the situation. Roy had built up in his mind that he would be the only one to sacrifice himself for the group that when someone else did (and when the "least trustworthy" one is the only witness) he could not grasp it. We all have our illusions and eventually, they get broken.

[Don Ohnic]

Poor Roy, going into denial. He snapped out of it very soon though.

[faustin]

Roy´s reaction is very emotional and realitic: his oldest friend and comrate, turned into the one thing he most despise (besides a tree).

The comic so far has made a point in how horrific undeath truly is, how twist both victims and practicioners. That, of couse, and faustian bargains like V´s. In general, Evil is Not a Toy.

[Mr.Rictus]

I can understand poor Roy, Durkon has been his best friend for years, Belkar has been a dangerous psychopath for months.
What would you rather believe, that your best friend died and became a monster or that the nasty little thug lied again? Still, glad he saw reason in time.

[pjackson]

Double Strip - nice

[Macros]

Well, as expected, Roy did not take that well. Then again, who would ? I wonder how quickly the group will bounce back from this blow.

[thatSeniorGuy]

:haley: No - because I don't think Belkar's capable of inventing someone doing that.

Ouch Haley. Ouch.

[Aurorax]

So sad. Love the emotions on Roy on the last strips :smallfrown:

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, I can't say Roy's reaction wasn't understandable. (My reaction when I found out Marvel were turning Jubilee into a vampire was broadly similar...) Heck, Belkar actually seemed genuinely affected by it all too. Just showing again that even Evil can have friends and collegues (even if they'd probably literally rather die than admit it...!)

[Finagle]

Yup, that's right. When the evil guy repents, nobody believes him and they treat him like crap. Then after getting slapped in the face, he goes right back to being evil. It happened to William Munny, too.

[Needle]

:smallfrown:

Poor Belkar, for once he said the truth and this happens. Hope there's an apology, and maybe advance inside and stall for the night? Now V's Hold Portal would be that bad once they closes that door, just because it was useless like 600 strips ago :smalltongue:

PS: And yay for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14839567&postcount=265), almost a quote :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Gamera]

I've unfortunately witnessed someone fail a real-life sociopath test, but I'd never before seen -- in reality or in fiction -- a clever use of someone's known sociopathy to discern the truth, as Haley does here.

[Mauve Shirt]

Why you gotta fill me with feels right before work. :smallfrown:

[BobVosh]

I really thought he was going to finish him, Belkar has so little con left he should be only one one swing away.

[Lycan 01]

As always, amazing job, Giant. That was intense. Very good storytelling and characterization. I honestly though Roy was going to attack Belkar, rather than accept the truth. :smalleek:

[Joseph_Lavode]

I worried that was the reaction that Belkar would get. Not hugely surprising when he acts like that, but still...

...

Is Mr Scruffy jumping between them to defend Belkar there?

[Pronounceable]

Belkar is getting actual character development. This is more surprising than Durkula.

[JoseB]

Roy went through denial, followed by anger. And with the situation Durkon ended up in, there is no bargaining. At the end, only sad acceptance.

Elan and Haley in the last panel look so, so, so sad. You can imagine Elan sobbing on Haley's shoulder.

[Gwynfrid]

And again, the reality check comes from Haley. Nice touch on unlocking the situation.

And, so sad.

[warmachine]

Roy needs to re-evaluate his criteria for disbelieving stories of bad news. Bite marks aren't something people like to fake.

[Squall83]

Did anyone notice the "turn undead" joke shortly before Belkar said that there was no punchline? :smallsmile:

[fergo]

I think I fall on the side of 'Roy would have believed Belkar, but couldn't bring himself to accept that Durkon was dead.' Even he would be able to see that, in the state Belkar was in, he was unlikely to be lying.

He just didn't want to accept Durkon had become a monster :smallfrown:.

[hamishspence]

I feel Roy's reaction does make a lot of sense- given his relationship with Durkon, and his attitude to Belkar.

[i6uuaq]

So sad. Love the emotions on Roy on the last strips :smallfrown:

:smallfrown:

sad. Roy's face really tells the whole tale there.

[Gem_Knight]

Belkar is getting actual character development. This is more surprising than Durkula.

Despite his efforts at 'faking' growth and being part of the team, he's pretty much slowly been developing into a less horrible person since shortly after getting the cat. Like the line where he says rangers are supposed to influence their animals not the other way around. They have been influencing each other.

Too bad Belkar is fated to die, we'll probably never see the end result of the transformation. It probably wouldn't be good, but it might at least fall more in line with a chaotic neutral...

[warmachine]

Roy needs to re-evaluate his plans right now. In a high magic world, you're dead meat without full spellcasters. OotS must get Vaarsuvius and Durkon back quickly.

[Kareasint]

Haley needed to step in there. She has the Bluff skill and recognized that Belkar's story was no Bluff. Roy was not willing to accept it from Belkar.

The big question is: what happens now? That pretty much blows Roy's plan for defending the Gate. Belkar is effectively out of the fight also (negative levels, CON drain).

[Torrasque]

And Belkar continues the moral improvement. Glad to see it :)

[Illsbane]

Amazing. Belkar really does seem to be upset by the fact that someone died because they tried to save him...

[Gem_Knight]

Roy needs to re-evaluate his plans right now. In a high magic world, you're dead meat without full spellcasters. OotS must get Vaarsuvius and Durkon back quickly.

That would be true in an actual D&D gameworld, but as it's a story, we've seen Roy is physically capable of killing Xykon already when he got pissed over his sword breaking. Though Xykon is a poor example as he's not a wizard who's put thought into every eventuality.

That said- no caster is invulnerable in OotS, because none of them are assumed to have thought of every contingency. In fact most of them, even the high level ones, have barely put more than a few amusing contingencies in effect. Hell Soon put more thought into Contingency plans than either of the two Xykon killed, and he's not full caster. That said at least the Illusionist (Forgive me for being poor at remembering names) put some forethought into fallback plans. Though apparently not enough.

[tcrudisi]

Well, I think the story has fallen into place for me.

V has come to the realization that support is the best way to go.
Haley has already demonstrated her ability to lead a second team.
Roy has shown a willingness to work with evil for the greater good.

The Order is weaker than ever.

I believe that Roy will end up working with Malack/Durkon in order to protect the last gate in the Dwarven lands. There will be 2 clerics, one for each team, necessary to split them up to deal with the goblin cleric, as they don't know which team will run into him.

Roy is willing to sacrifice his afterlife to save the world, which is what will eventually get him into heaven.

It also means a balanced party. Since Belkar will die soon, Malack joining up soon will result in a party of 6 again.

Finally, there is one small hitch. Since Durkon is now a vampire, I expect Malack to be smart enough to get the information for why the OotS is after the gate and learn that their mission is the more important of the two. He lives forever, after all, and so delaying his own conquest by a couple of hundred years isn't really much. So he might not directly join up with the OotS. I can see him and Durkon giving support from the shadows. Perhaps even sending Durkon to the team while giving support from the shadows.

Regardless, I'm now convinced that Malack will be a member of the OotS shortly.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This made me sad. Maybe a bit crying. A bit.:smallfrown:

[Halghare]

There's another important detail that's been overlooked in the comments thus far:

Belkar didn't know there was a prophecy concerning his death. Now he does.

[oppyu]

Poor Roy, poor Belkar, poor everyone. This was almost as depressing as the one where Durkon died. Not as depressing, obviously, but something about the way Belkar told the story... I actually feel bad for the detestable little psychopath.

[Illsbane]

There's another important detail that's been overlooked in the comments thus far:

Belkar didn't know there was a prophecy concerning his death. Now he does.

But will he care very much?

[Echonian]

Roy's reaction was extreme, but understandable.

What really surprised me was Belkar's behavior. The fact that he didn't find the death of someone funny when that death saved the life of a little fiend like himself shows some significant character development. I think he may have had a bit of a mini-epiphany when his life was saved there, we'll just have to wait and see. I can see see this being a third step towards his changing personality.

The first step was him staying with a group for as long as he has, and working towards a common goal (such as in the battle in Azure city and since). This mainly is important for him even forming an idea of how to aim towards something that doesn't exclusively benefit him.

The second step was empathy, with the main example of this being his behavior towards his animal companion. Being able to see the value in other life, in addition to just shared goals, is an important step for him to be less like he is now.

The third step is a near-death experience, which seems to in this case have shown him that it is at least less acceptable to be forced to give up your life protecting those you care about, than otherwise.

While I don't expect Belkar to suddenly become what would be seen as "good", I can see him becoming at least okay easily enough. The changes have been in place for quite a long while now, after all.

[Cicciograna]

I almost cried. The look on their faces :smallfrown:

[ufis]

I found Roy's reaction a bit too stereotypical Lawful Good to get very excited about it.
Maybe I have seen too much of that type of reaction from LG characters in campaigns.

[The Pilgrim]

Ok, Roy, now give in to that Hero Complex of yours, wrap this Gate thing up, and charge to the rescue.

[Illsbane]

Well, as sad as this whole development, I have to tip the old hat to Mr. Burlew.

I saw Durkon's unholy transformation coming years ago, and it still hurt and surprised me to see him fall... only to rise again. :smallfrown:

[Zweisteine]

Wow... Belkar is being serious for once... :smallfrown:

[elros]

Belkar is getting actual character development. This is more surprising than Durkula.

I think he may have had a bit of a mini-epiphany when his life was saved there, we'll just have to wait and see. I can see see this being a third step towards his changing personality.
I think the Giant is showing how Belkar and V are both developing, especially in regards to their alignment. V feels regret for his actions and realizes that he is closer to evil than he wishes, and Belkar is showing sadness for Durkon's sacrifice. It's nice to see real character development, especially in stick figures.

[sam79]

Such a sad strip; Roy's denial and overreaction, and the heart-breaking last three panels. Kudos to the artist for being able to express so much with such 'simple' art.

Roy's given away a few things in his rant; that there is a prophesy about Belakr's death, and that he sees through Belkar's act. Will the halfling pick up on this, I wonder? Also, he still has put no ranks in Sense Motive.

Also, Belkar; with this and the last strip too, do we see the beginnings of a real conscience? He seems to genuinely care about Durkon's fate. And he's not even cracked one "Durkon; what a sucker" joke, when it is crying out to be made.

[ReaderAt2046]

The faces in the last panel are so perfect! Roy and Haley are grieving, Elan is probably trying to comfort Haley, and Belkar has his "Well DUH it's the truth!" face on.

[Filippo]

Hey I'v got an account!

Let's start with thanking the Giant for all these years of fun (I'm so sorry i could not participate to the kickstarter run; I hope there will be some more in the future)

Well, I hope you get to read this

About the strip: poetic as ever, faces, dialogs, even silent and still panels

Last, about Belkar: we run an all Evil campaign in the past, it was kind of fun (as we were all experienced enough to don't let it become a mess)
At last a friend of mine came with a catching phrase: "True Friends are a precious an rarely found treasure among people of Evil alignment".

And it's hard to ignore the fact that someone saved your life, especially if he loses his own in the process.

[ZarDaranth]

I read this strip, and think two things right off the bat:

1.) This seems like a glimpse into the Roy "stages of grief"....

:roy: You're unbelievable (Denial)
:roy: I should just finish you off! (Anger)
:roy: Why would he have...alone? (Bargaining)
:roy: (Last Panel) (Depression)
:roy: (Later Strips) (Acceptance)


2.) Why must dwarves who try to defend gates die so early? I also have a feeling that there might be some comparisons to later interactions with Roy and Belkar that look like Girard and Soon's fight. The whole "You should have been the one who died, you son of a Samwise!"

[hamishspence]

It's interesting to see Belkar's phrasing "Durkon saved my life and got murdered for it."

[sam79]

I read this strip, and think two things right off the bat:

1.) This seems like a glimpse into the Roy "stages of grief"....

:roy: You're unbelievable (Denial)
:roy: I should just finish you off! (Anger)
:roy: Why would he have...alone? (Bargaining)
:roy: (Last Panel) (Depression)
:roy: (Later Strips) (Acceptance)


Oooo, good catch. I think later strips might see some more bargain and anger stages, as Roy tries to work out if vampires can be turned back, or if they are unredeemable monsters. Will he then have to face the possibility of facing and 'killing' Vampire Durkon?

[Harry Leipzig]

Oh jeez. The most emotional part about this is Roy's denial. He can't accept the idea that his best friend is now an undead abomination. Maybe he could have accepted straight-up dead, but undead, no. And the faces in the last panel really drive the point home. This is very bad, and tragic too. My only ideas for them surviving are immediate retreat, sudden arrival of Hinjo and a bunch of high-level paladins, and intervention by the IFCC. And no, Xykon showing up is not a recipe for their survival. Hate to break it to you.:smallfrown:

[Harry Leipzig]

2.) Why must dwarves who try to defend gates die so early? I also have a feeling that there might be some comparisons to later interactions with Roy and Belkar that look like Girard and Soon's fight. The whole "You should have been the one who died, you son of a Samwise!"

I noticed it during the fight with Malack. The similarities were just too perfect in my mind for that to not happen.

[Ave]

Did anyone notice the "turn undead" joke shortly before Belkar said that there was no punchline? :smallsmile:

Yeah, Elan could have said that it was a fine crack, except that Elan is shocked too :D

[Turgon9357]

Had a feeling that Roy wasn't going to believe Belkar right away. Very understandable.

Also, Mr. Scruffy jumped in between Belkar and Roy. D'aww.

[Gitman00]

Interesting detail I noticed - Roy let slip the prophecy about Belkar's demise. I don't think the Belkster was aware of that.

EDIT: Looks like Halghare picked up on that too.

[KillianHawkeye]

Damn you, Giant! Stop pulling at my heart strings!

[Gitman00]

Interesting how liars always get indignant when they finally tell the truth and they aren't believed.

[Mike Havran]

Poor Roy. He lost his best friend without warning, on a mundane "get the halfling back" mission. No wonder he refused to believe...

I wouldn't put too much weight on Belkar displaying different kind of attitude. Guy has been drained almost to death - that will shake everybody's viewpoints.

[Finagle]

Roy just didn't believe Belkar because vampires have to be buried in a coffin and left dead for a few days before they rise. :smallyuk: He didn't see the Ass Pull houserule that let Malack get away with it.

[Nohar]

Wow Roy. You nearly pulled a Miko here. Though, his reaction is understandable. The pain of losing a close friend would lead anyone mad, at least for a few seconds.

God, his expression :smallfrown:

Belkar really did evolve. He mellowed a bit. I think he's still a sociopathic murderer, but he became a teamplayer, and gained some empathy, thanks to Mr Scruffy.

Also : Roy, really ? You just said to Belkar he is fated to die (implicitely soon). Belkar is a sociopath, but he's not a (complete) moron.

[HUMVEE Driver]

You should feel like crap, Roy - you're the leader, and you just let individual members of your party go running off by themselves.

[oppyu]

Interesting how liars always get indignant when they finally tell the truth and they aren't believed.
Well yeah, it's infuriating. You finally make an effort to do the right thing and be honest, and everyone else just throws it back in your face without even a hint of gratitude. People supposedly want you to be honest, but they make it impossible.

Not that I would know anything about being habitually dishonest, of course.

[snikrept]

So we got the denial and the anger, next strip Roy will start bargaining with Belkar !

[Brom]

Well yeah, it's infuriating. You finally make an effort to do the right thing and be honest, and everyone else just throws it back in your face without even a hint of gratitude. People supposedly want you to be honest, but they make it impossible.

Not that I would know anything about being habitually dishonest, of course.

True that.

Plus, I want to know - is there ever actually a strip anyone can link where he lies? Because I am pretty sure there are references to Roy accusing him of making things up, but I can't think of times where Belkar has actually lied.

He once withheld information about not knowing it was Roy (belt of gender swap). But Roy didn't ever learn Belkar was withholding that.

Also, I can totally get Belkar being sad Durkon died. Paragon of good and justice. Worshiper of a good aligned god. Belkar, a murderer and a psychopath. Durkon risks his life to save Belkar anyways, and dies. Belkar must feel like the universe isn't very fair right now.

[Tectonic Robot]

Regardless, I'm now convinced that Malack will be a member of the OotS shortly.

I don't know think the Order would team up with Durkon's killer, even if it was the only way to save the world. If they did, I doubt it would last long.

[Crustypeanut]

Actually, guys, has Belkar ever even BEEN much of a liar? Sure he's a psychotic little maniac (which is why we love him), but I can't think of a single time off the top of my head where he's lied. I'm sure he's done it, but he's never been much of a lying type if memory serves. He's more of a "Kill someone and then get yelled at' sort of person. Very action-oriented instead of guile-oriented.

Hell, from what I can remember, even ROY (I.E., Mr. "Lawful Good") has lied at least once.

Thoughts?

[Gitman00]

Well yeah, it's infuriating. You finally make an effort to do the right thing and be honest, and everyone else just throws it back in your face without even a hint of gratitude. People supposedly want you to be honest, but they make it impossible.

Not that I would know anything about being habitually dishonest, of course.

Oh, I get that part of it. It's just that the liar brings it on himself, like the boy who cried wolf. If you're a pathological liar, people expect you to lie. If Durkon crawled back with the same story about Belkar, Roy would believe him in a heartbeat.

I think part of why it's so infuriating is because the liar knows in his heart of hearts that it's his own fault.

[oball]

I like that Belkar didn't deny that he was only pretending to be a team player.

EDIT: Belkar lies in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html). But only so that Roy doesn't think he committed a quasi-Good act.

[Themrys]

Also, I can totally get Belkar being sad Durkon died. Paragon of good and justice. Worshiper of a good aligned god. Belkar, a murderer and a psychopath. Durkon risks his life to save Belkar anyways, and dies. Belkar must feel like the universe isn't very fair right now.

Actually, no.
Psychopaths consider themselves the centre of the universe and think they're entitled to everything.
Being surprised at Durkon's death, on the other hand, does make sense from a genre-savvy point of view.

Belkar either had a bit of character development and is actually impressed by Durkon's sacrifice - meaning he isn't a complete psychopath anymore - or he has to deliver the info to the other characters and that's why he explains how Durkon died in such detail. I prefer the former interpretation.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I had a feeling Roy would react like this.

[Gitman00]

Plus, I want to know - is there ever actually a strip anyone can link where he lies? Because I am pretty sure there are references to Roy accusing him of making things up, but I can't think of times where Belkar has actually lied.

That is... actually a fair point. The only one that comes to mind is when he implied he didn't know the tall black woman was Roy, so he could get a rise out of him. Well, that and he lied about his skill as a tracker when he joined the team.

[EccentricFellow]

If the fate of Durkon did not seal the fate of OOTS, Roy's reaction, even if understandable, probably has. You can replace lost team members, but you cannot rebuild trust once it has been lost. Pretty hard to take back some things after you say them - As V has noted - and spilling the beans on the prophecy and threatening to murder a fellow teammate in cold blood, well, that is probably going to be one of them. Perhaps Roy would be better off playing blocks with his little brother.

[P equals NP]

That last panel... so sad.

I really do wonder if Durkon's death will do the same thing to the Order Of The Stick as Kraagor's death did to the Order Of The Scribble, but we'll have to wait until the grief progresses further.

[hamishspence]

If the fate of Durkon did not seal the fate of OOTS, Roy's reaction, even if understandable, probably has. You can replace lost team members, but you cannot rebuild trust once it has been lost.

Has Belkar ever been under the impression that Roy trusts him, though?

[fishguy]

Rich is spoiling us! First comic after the nine-in-a-row is a double pager! Our cup runneth over.

If I was writing this story (or DM-ing the game) I would be seriously worried about how the party would get out of this situation. An effectively incapacitated member, a deceased member (who also happens to be the healer) and an emotionally crippled caster who is lost, badly injured and wandering. All wrapped up in a trap filled dungeon surrounded by miles of unforgiving dessert with bad guys camped outside and the boss bad guys en-route. Yikes. On the edge of my seat here!

[Mutant Sheep]

Augh, the party, it is emotional! I shall complain about how they should be warding their faces with garlic!

Also..l:smallfrown:

[oball]

All wrapped up in a trap filled dungeon surrounded by miles of unforgiving dessert

Indeed, the situation is not one to be trifled with.

[Duos Greanleef]

... And then you scroll to the bottom banner and see Durkon all smilin' an' sayin' "Thanks!" :smallfrown:

[kruemeli]

Interesting detail I noticed - Roy let slip the prophecy about Belkar's demise. I don't think the Belkster was aware of that.

EDIT: Looks like Halghare picked up on that too.

Well... so drained as he is... and as intelligent as he is...
I would be very surprised if Belkar noticed!

Edit: my wife picked up on that as soon as she read the comic...
I still would be surprised if Bellkar[sic] really noticed!

[Colchek]

I don't post often but I had to post on this one. That last panel is a real tear-jerker.. :smallfrown: I noticed even Belkar is showing a touch of sadness at the situation given the expression on his face. This might be due to the fact that someone from the team actually went out of their way to save his life instead of just letting him be vampire fodder, losing theirs in the process.

Something I thought about after reading this. We know the prophecy says that Belkar is due for his dirt nap at some point. Given all the battering against various folk's alignments (V especially), it would be a real twist if Belkar actually started to move towards a more moral outlook before his demise.

[Tiniere]

... And then you scroll to the bottom banner and see Durkon all smilin' an' sayin' "Thanks!" :smallfrown:

I have to agree that this aspect of the site is what's got me so teary eyed whenever I read recently...

This page is probably a new favourite of mine though, getting to see how the order acts and reacts to Durkon's sudden but inevitable demise with the news delivered by Belkar was really enjoyable despite the sadness that accompanied it.

Edit: I'm also very interested in seeing how V will handle this news...

[LuisDantas]

So sad. I totally understand Roy's reaction.

Not quite buying - or understanding - what happened to Belkar, though. He might as well be possessed since the last strip, given the sudden personality shift.

Still, I'm glad that there was a correct understanding in the end.

[hamishspence]

It's not really that sudden- we've already seen him empathise (with Gannji & Enor).

[kruemeli]

Actually, no.
Psychopaths consider themselves the centre of the universe and think they're entitled to everything.


I'd be curious where you get that definition from...

[Terbovus]

Aw. That's sad. :frown:

[LuisDantas]

Has Belkar ever been under the impression that Roy trusts him, though?

Indeed. Nor would Belkar even respect or trust him more if he did.

No, Roy had every reason and right to mistrust Belkar and, despite his token complaint in this strip, Belkar knows that all too well.

[mawexzon]

Oh Roy, you are such a jerk when you are reasonably disbelieving a proved liar.

[Pantler]

Belkar is being SO mistreated here, ravaging psychotic killer or not. :smallfrown:

[LarelAnorien]

:frown: *sob* :frown:

[Turgon9357]

I wonder if V will blame Vself for Durkon dying. If the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) were still alive, this whole fiasco would have been avoided. First it was learning that the splice would cost some soul time. Then it cost the family. Then it cost the security of the gate and hundreds of innocent lives. Now it has cost the life of a dearly respected companion and friend.

I really dig how Rich handles evil in the comic. Evil beings are just as complicated as other characters, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, evil is not a toy and will screw you over. I wouldn't be surprised if V's bargain costs V everything.

[talkamancer]

Now I want a hug :smallfrown:

[stsasser]

Rebuke Management

[dethkruzer]

well... this certainly brings out an unexpected aspect of Roy.

[shadowpriest]

As always, my congratulations to the Giant for this masterpiece.

Elan sobbing on Haley's shoulder (I think) is truly moving :smallfrown:

Also, it's sad knowing that, without Durkon (R.I.P.), there's no way for the Belkster to reset the CON drain, and something as simple as a cantrip could kill him.
On a completely unrelated note, the Belkster is a ranger, still we never saw him with an animal companion (before Mr. Scruffy - or The Scruffinator), and the Wild Empathy checks were poor too. Now, however, The Scruffinator has become a valid and caring companion, so he (it?) and the Belkester could gain some bonuses, as per the master/companion ranger feature.

P.S. Sadness everywhere :(

[Gitman00]

Belkar is being SO mistreated here, ravaging psychotic killer or not. :smallfrown:

Not really. Roy is mistaken, but his distrust of Belkar is entirely reasonable. And his continued ranting after Belkar shows him the bite marks can be chalked up to the shock of losing his oldest friend.

[DarkEternal]

Honestly, I'm almost disappointed that Roy didn't attack Belkar. Reading from the comments here, people actually stand by Belkar which is silly to say at the very least. We have a psychopath who pretty much plays with intestines of people he kills, who was alone with the guys best friend. The psychopath comes back and weaves a story about how a competent, intelligent and "wise" cleric got killed because he fought a vampire solo.

I like Belkar as much as the next guy, but from the perspective of the party, I would think that either he backstabbed the dwarf for giggles, or that he was incompetent enough(which he was) to result in the dwarfs death.

It would be a real hit to Roys intelligence if he believed a word of what Belkar said at face value. Honestly, were it not for Haley that takes a more "clear headed" approach to the situation, and Elan who is just too kind to see anyone getting hurt, I'd half expect Roy lobbing Belkars head off.

[krieger]

Belkar - they don't deserve you. :smallyuk:

[hamishspence]

True. They deserve someone much better. But at the moment, they're stuck with him :smalltongue:

[jonathan_sicari]

Perhaps not exactly the right thread for it but after the last panel, I want Durkon to eventually look at Malak and say "I hate you vampire dad".

That's a trope over at TV tropes.

[SavageWombat]

This is the second time Roy has unreasonably flipped out at Belkar for "making fun of death".

I think Roy is feeling guilty over his knowledge of Belkar's imminent demise, and his own failure to try to prevent it. Abandoning a team member, and all.

[oppyu]

Is this going to become a 'We Hate (Insert PC Who Came Off Somewhat Negatively In The Last Strip, But Will Probably Be Redeemed In The Next Few Strips)' comic discussion thread?

[Rufusstan]

I suppose it is telling that even though I have been reading for years, taken part in the kickstarter etc etc, it is this storyline that has prompted me to register and post.

I love that we can still get blindsided by plot twists (although I could happily do without this one thank you very much).

Today was wonderful in the reactions of the characters, even that Roy was willing to believe anything of Belkar if he meant he didn't have to face the truth.

By the way I did wonder that the fact that Belkar is slowly evolving might get him a sneaky get out of jail free with respect to the prophecy. (The whole not the same person anymore thing). Looking back at the Oracle stuff, it doesn't seem so

[Needle]

I'd be dissapointed if Roy attacked Belkar, way too dissapointed. There is no reason, he's visibly weaker (not only he came back crawling, he's palid and he has those bites) and it's making sense. Heck, the guy is half-dead as Roy pointed out, and Durkon is nowhere to be seen. Roy was clearly moved because Durkon was turned, as it was his closest friend inside the Order, it was good for him and everyone that Haley kept calm despite all this.

It's too sad, but now the Order need to think quick at what to do. Belkar will be useless from now on (still no reason to kill him, not by the Order at least), V is still out of bounds and can't be located. I'm expecting the next strips :smallsmile:

[sims796]

Honestly, I'm almost disappointed that Roy didn't attack Belkar. Reading from the comments here, people actually stand by Belkar which is silly to say at the very least. We have a psychopath who pretty much plays with intestines of people he kills, who was alone with the guys best friend. The psychopath comes back and weaves a story about how a competent, intelligent and "wise" cleric got killed because he fought a vampire solo.

I like Belkar as much as the next guy, but from the perspective of the party, I would think that either he backstabbed the dwarf for giggles, or that he was incompetent enough(which he was) to result in the dwarfs death.

It would be a real hit to Roys intelligence if he believed a word of what Belkar said at face value. Honestly, were it not for Haley that takes a more "clear headed" approach to the situation, and Elan who is just too kind to see anyone getting hurt, I'd half expect Roy lobbing Belkars head off.

That would be a mark of a poor, poor leader if he did.

The reason why Roy nearly came to blows is because he knew that Belkar was serious, and did his damndest to not believe it. We have this halfling literally crawling with two big honkin' bite marks, and from their perspective, you can tell that he's been through quite a bit.

If Roy killed Belkar right there...well, he's lucky he's not a Paladin, or BOOM goes the lightning (even if he was spinning a story, it'll still be quite evil to kill him off right there because you're "tired of his $#@!")

Not to mention, it wasn't entirely unwise for Durkon to do what he has done, especially given the reason that Belkar laid out.

This was telling because Roy's a hell of a lot more careful than that. Or, he at least presents himself as such. Look at the evidence, and you can see that Belkar isn't making this up, or that his story deserves some sort of merit given who he is.

[TopCheese]

Belkar doesn't use the word killed or any other word that would imply a lack of attachment to when someone gets killed.

If I saw "Durkon was killed yesterday by Malack" that shows I don't have a personal attachment like "Oh did you hear? The champion was killed by a mere human". However if I had a personal attachment of some sort (durkon is a friend or Thog is my half brother) I would say "Durkon was murdered yesterday by malack!" Or "Did you hear? The champion was murdered by a mere human!"

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but using the word murdered shows more emotion and a stronger connection to the person.

[DaOldeWolf]

Ouch, I really feel bad for Belkar. But as the saying goes "Create fame and go to sleep."

[Mighty_Chicken]

Roy freaked out. He made me freak out too. His despair in the last panel is very touching.

What now?

[Razanir]

Roy´s reaction is very emotional and realitic: his oldest friend and comrate, turned into the one thing he most despise (besides a tree).

The comic so far has made a point in how horrific undeath truly is, how twist both victims and practicioners. That, of couse, and faustian bargains like V´s. In general, Evil is Not a Toy.

Ah, the bright side of Durkula. At least he's not a tree.


Well, I can't say Roy's reaction wasn't understandable. (My reaction when I found out Marvel were turning Jubilee into a vampire was broadly similar...) Heck, Belkar actually seemed genuinely affected by it all too. Just showing again that even Evil can have friends and collegues (even if they'd probably literally rather die than admit it...!)

Darn it Mr. Scruffy! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) A ranger is supposed to influence his animal's behavior. You're doing it backwards!

That aside, I think Roy's reaction is understandable. His worst enemy (on the team at least) telling him his best friend turned into the second worst thing imaginable. Belkar even would have killed Durkon prior to Scruffy, but the rest of the Order doesn't really know about his character development. I predict that by the end of OotS, Belkar might actually become good enough to mimic Durkon's sacrifice in his inevitable end.

[Lvl45DM!]

Aye Denial be tragic. But it's nae as tragic as wha' 'appened ta me fav'rite dwarf.

Love the last panel. Elan the child sobbing on the emotionally distant Haleys shoulder. Roy just being crushed under the weight of guilt and failure. Belkar could be annoyed, could be jealous that the 3 of them will never include him in their grief.

[Rui]

I... damn. That was just too sad. I think that Belkar is touched by Durkon's sacrifice. I think he did get character development, right now.

Roy's reaction was denial. You can't really blame him for that, Durkon was his best friend. The last strip was masterpiece - Roy is sad, and Elan crying on Haley's shoulder... damn.

Edit:

I thought it will end after the 1st comic, took me second to notice the page can still be rolled down. 2 comics. thank you Rich.

And btw, check on comic 1 in the last line Belkar's face in the first panel. He is... sad.

[hamishspence]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but using the word murdered shows more emotion and a stronger connection to the person.

Or simply that it went way beyond self-defence, or "normal rules of war".

One can recognize that a complete stranger was murdered, without any emotional attachment.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or simply that it went way beyond self-defence, or "normal rules of war".
Does Belkar seem like the type to take the "normal rules of war" into account? :smallconfused:

[FlawedParadigm]

It's interesting to see Belkar's phrasing "Durkon saved my life and got murdered for it."

Yeah, I noticed that too. I only immediately recall Belkar using the term "murder" when cracking jokes about how funny it is and whatnot. Normally he says "x killed y" or whatever when talking about death on a personal level, or "I'm going to kill you!" His use of "murder" there really stuck out to me.

I think we're starting to see the seeds of discontent that eventually drove the Order of the Scribble apart too. Even what little we know of that story has looked sad so far. Watching it happen with characters we've known for near on a decade now, though...

[Fedaykin]

i'm sad :smallfrown:

[hamishspence]

I think we're starting to see the seeds of discontent that eventually drove the Order of the Scribble apart too. Even what little we know of that story has looked sad so far. Watching it happen with characters we've known for near on a decade now, though...

I'm actually thinking that it'll be the other way round- that common grief for Durkon will bring them closer rather than pushing them apart.

[hamishspence]

Does Belkar seem like the type to take the "normal rules of war" into account? :smallconfused:

He's smart enough to recognize that his own killing of the prison Guard in Azure City would qualify as murder under normal circumstances:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy's initial reaction was shocking and a little worrying, but looking at it as a whole it makes perfect sense. I'm glad people see that.

All we need to to completely destroy morale is for V to turn up and learn about what (s)he missed and take responsibility for it as well. I could see that happening with h** current mindset.

I suspect (and hope) that 881 will be about Roy pulling it together and coming up with a new plan, even if it's the scorched earth gate plan. So far his leadership has been pretty effective in Windy Canyon, so this would be the next big challenge for him.

[Tomada]

Now now...

We shouldn't be silly. Why would Belkar cause the death of someone and then try to hide it.

If anything he would be posting huge posters everywhere

[happycrow]

Amazing. Belkar really does seem to be upset by the fact that someone died because they tried to save him...

Inversion of the Ungrateful Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UngratefulBastard); you see it now and then when the villain's shock at having been saved or spared compared to the good-guy creates cognitive dissonance and moral growth.

A perfect example of this in movies is Pitch Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Black_(film)), which is a classic medieval morality play. Belkar's reaction to Durkon's sacrifice is not that unlike Riddick's shock at having been spared from a situation where his badassedness was no more of a help to him than Belkar's was against the LizGreaper.

[stsasser]

Roy freaked out. He made me freak out too. His despair in the last panel is very touching.

What now?

He split his party - twice - while undoing the traps on that door...which is now unattended. LG or Team Evil can just stroll through, maybe dropping something in the Order's tip jar for making it so easy. Roy should write his resignation on the back of that MBA and give it to Haley, the new team leader.:smallfrown:

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm actually thinking that it'll be the other way round- that common grief for Durkon will bring them closer rather than pushing them apart.

I hope you're right. My observation is that one of the lesser themes of OOTS is dealing with the consequences of the previous generation's mistakes: Eugene not fulfilling his oath, the Sapphire Guard's purges of goblinoid villages, and the Order of the Scribble's division and mistrust - incidentally, I wonder if we'll ever see the circumstances around that in greater detail - so it would make sense to me that Roy, having largely overcome the shortcomings his upbringing gave him, would prevent such a fallout happening.

[JackRackham]

D***. Great strip.

[Hullabaloo]

who the frick keeps chopping onions around here?

[Tomada]

Ah, the bright side of Durkula. At least he's not a tree.



Darn it Mr. Scruffy! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) A ranger is supposed to influence his animal's behavior. You're doing it backwards!

That aside, I think Roy's reaction is understandable. His worst enemy (on the team at least) telling him his best friend turned into the second worst thing imaginable. Belkar even would have killed Durkon prior to Scruffy, but the rest of the Order doesn't really know about his character development. I predict that by the end of OotS, Belkar might actually become good enough to mimic Durkon's sacrifice in his inevitable end.

Belkar may have no ranks in handle animal, but after so many years with Shojo Mr. Scruffy should have acquired some many ranks in "Handle Sociopath" it is not even funny.

[Ivrytwr]

Fractured, scattered, faithless. Our poor band of adventurers is not holding up too well.
They still have to navigate the pyramid, defend the gate from Xykon and Red Cloak, hold off the Linear Guild, and whatever comes next.
Great sadness in that last frame.

[TopCheese]

Or simply that it went way beyond self-defence, or "normal rules of war".

One can recognize that a complete stranger was murdered, without any emotional attachment.

Normal people still feel a bit of attachment to others or at least can empathize with others who lost someone.

Psy/sociopaths do not have that ability, wither genetic or environmentally created they just don't have it. They can state it as a fact, but they are far less likely to emotionally spout it out.

While everyone thinks Belkar is a psy/sociopath (debatable on belkar at this point since he is a made up character) it almost seems like that part of him is leaving (character development) while retaining his CE allignement.

The fact he empathizes with Enor/Ganjii is further proof he is coming along.

So I think using murder in a non factual way is very much important to the very person who is belkar.

Edit: Spout out "murder" in a way other than being surprised, like walking into a room and a ewok murders a troll... Even belkar would be all 0.o "holy crap you just murdered a fricken troll, how did you do that!" Or something like that...

[ManuelSacha]

This was sooooo sad... :smallfrown:


On a side note, can somebody refresh my memory on Belkar's prophecy?
No, I don't want to hear any crazy theories (again), I'd just like to know where, other than here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the Oracle says Belkar is going to die (the overquoted "not long for this world" and "draw his last breath" sentences aren't in that strip).
The reason I'm asking is that, as far as I remember, Belkar is unaware of this prophecy (having forgotten it all because of the Oracle's Tower's memory spell, while Roy remembers because of the Resurrection loophole).
If I'm correct, that means that, in a moment of anger, Roy just abruptly told Belkar, in a moment of anger, that there is a prophecy about his death.
The little fella is kinda daft, but I don't think this one will fly over his head that easily...

[Proud Tortoise]

Well, the party is well and truly screwed. They have three uninjured members with them, no healer, and they are facing two vampires... And each has bad Will, Fort or both.:smalleek:

[RMS Oceanic]

This was sooooo sad... :smallfrown:


On a side note, can somebody refresh my memory on Belkar's prophecy?
No, I don't want to hear any crazy theories (again), I'd just like to know where, other than here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the Oracle says Belkar is going to die (the overquoted "not long for this world" and "draw his last breath" sentences aren't in that strip).
The reason I'm asking is that, as far as I remember, Belkar is unaware of this prophecy (having forgotten it all because of the Oracle's Tower's memory spell, while Roy remembers because of the Resurrection loophole).
If I'm correct, that means that, in a moment of anger, Roy just abruptly told Belkar, in a moment of anger, that there is a prophecy about his death.
The little fella is kinda daft, but I don't think this one will fly over his head that easily...

"Belkar will take his last breath - ever - before the end of the year."

(Can't remember the exact comic, but it's around the 570's.)

Statements from Roy and the Giant give a timescale of up to five in-comic weeks for such a thing to happen. It might be during this battle, it might be in the middle or the end of the next book.

[Koraxx]

I am continually amazed at the ability of freaking stick figures to elicit an emotional response from me.

That last panel... Man...

Great strip though, wow.

[Paseo H]

Honestly, my first impression was that Roy was being just a tad Miko-ish here, even if it was Belkar. Now, maybe if Belkar had seemed more sarcastic about it (i.e. like perhaps trying to laugh or something, nervously or otherwise) I could see Roy automatically making a monk jump to conclusions, but yeah.

[Burner28]

Poor Order of the Stick.


I'm actually thinking that it'll be the other way round- that common grief for Durkon will bring them closer rather than pushing them apart.

Hopefully yes.

[ManuelSacha]

"Belkar will take his last breath - ever - before the end of the year."

(Can't remember the exact comic, but it's around the 570's.)

Thank you, but that's exactly what I was NOT asking for, as I even specified.
I don't want the exact spelling of the prophecy, nor its interpretation, I just want to know whether Belkar knew about it or not (and yes, the link to the exact comic would help, ok).

[fan4battle]

Oh, the feels on this one... It was shocking and depressing when Durkon got killed and turned, but this here is so so sad... :smallfrown:

[RMS Oceanic]

Thank you, but that's exactly what I was NOT asking for, as I even specified.
I don't want the exact spelling of the prophecy, nor its interpretation, I just want to know whether Belkar knew about it or not (and yes, the link to the exact comic would help, ok).

Rereading the scene of Roy's revival, I see no point where that's communicated to Belkar. He mentions it to Haley however.

[sam79]

If I'm correct, that means that, in a moment of anger, Roy just abruptly told Belkar, in a moment of anger, that there is a prophecy about his death.
The little fella is kinda daft, but I don't think this one will fly over his head that easily...

Yes, I think you are correct; Roy has let slip something he'd probably prefer Belkar not to know. This has been mentioned several times already in this thread.

Lucky that Belkar's Listen check isn't worth a damn!

[Lex-Kat]

Not a big fan of Belkar, but this one made me feel bad for the little guy. Roy was a big _______. He needed a good smack upside the head.

[t209]

This is the only time when Belkar is actually a friend.
Poor Durkon. I was hoping that it would be some non-literal "post humorous".

[ThatNickGuy]

This comic takes all of my feels. ALL OF MY FEELS, DAMMIT.

[Dr. Gamera]

(and yes, the link to the exact comic would help, ok).

OOTS #572 (The Resistance of Memory) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

[Swashbuckler]

It happened to William Munny, too.

Props for the Unforgiven reference!

Seriously, though ... will someone give Belkar a healing potion already? :smallmad:

[Cynric]

Aw man. I'm really starting to miss the comical hi-jinks.

[Stabbey]

Fantastic comic. Very believable writing of the team reacting to an incredibly shocking development that came without warning.

Durkon's death makes this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) even more depressing.


I hope you're right. My observation is that one of the lesser themes of OOTS is dealing with the consequences of the previous generation's mistakes: Eugene not fulfilling his oath, the Sapphire Guard's purges of goblinoid villages, and the Order of the Scribble's division and mistrust - incidentally, I wonder if we'll ever see the circumstances around that in greater detail - so it would make sense to me that Roy, having largely overcome the shortcomings his upbringing gave him, would prevent such a fallout happening.

I'm absolutely certain that we'll get more detail about the Order of the Scribble's past. If I remember right, the Giant vetoed any backer's choice stories about them because that would be revealed in the main comic at some point.

[Paladin Steve]

OOTS #572 (The Resistance of Memory) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

Hoping that means "Belkar as we know him," ala the death of "Gandalf the Grey" leading to the (re)birth of "Gandalf the White." Sadly the "-ever" part kind of damages that possibilities' credibility. Maybe he'll change his name to "Mavis" or something.

[Vectner]

This is the saddest strip in a while. What next?

[FlawedParadigm]

:roy: How the Hell do you "sorta" kill someone?

Looks like Roy has still not learned to stop asking questions to which he will regret learning the answers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)

Oh, and there's your punchline, Belkar. You're welcome.

[RMS Oceanic]

This is the saddest strip in a while. What next?

I still think 877 outweeps it, but it's a close call.

[Kish]

Props for the Unforgiven reference!

Seriously, though ... will someone give Belkar a healing potion already? :smallmad:
It wouldn't do any good. Vampires don't deal hit point damage when they drink blood--they drain Constitution. Belkar has a Constitution of 1 at this point, and his Constitution won't return to normal--ever--without magic. He needs a cleric or paladin to cast Restoration on him.

Fortunately, Durkon shouldn't have any trouble...

...oh wait.

Hoping that means "Belkar as we know him," ala the death of "Gandalf the Grey" leading to the (re)birth of "Gandalf the White." Sadly the "-ever" part kind of damages that possibilities' credibility. Maybe he'll change his name to "Mavis" or something.
The Oracle's predictions of Belkar's death haven't all referred to Belkar by name, so that's no good. He'd still be The Halfling, Your Friend, and "he."

[stsasser]

Roy's... So far his leadership has been pretty effective in Windy Canyon, so this would be the next big challenge for him.

Roy's leadership since arriving in Windy Canyon has been 'effective' the same way as Baldrick's plans were 'cunning'. I'm not seeing it.:smallconfused:

[sam79]

Fortunately, Durkon shouldn't have any trouble...

...oh wait.


Now, see, that's just mean :smallwink:

Short of high level cleric spells, is there any potion or other remedy which can help the Belkster? What about that Cleric-In-A-Can stuff that Tarquin had a while ago to wipe out the Holy Word damage, for example?

[Dr. Gamera]

Belkar has a Constitution of 1 at this point, and his Constitution won't return to normal--ever--without magic.

SRD says: "Ability damage is temporary, just as hit point damage is. Ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per night of rest (8 hours) for each affected ability score. Complete bed rest restores 2 points per day (24 hours) for each affected ability score."

Ugh, my bad, I apparently don't know the difference between ability DAMAGE and ability DRAIN.

[RNGgod]

877 is sadder, but I can honestly say this is one of my favorite strips in a long, long time.

Bravo.

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy's leadership since arriving in Windy Canyon has been 'effective' the same way as Baldrick's plans were 'cunning'. I'm not seeing it.:smallconfused:

'Effective' might have been the wrong word. What I'm saying is that Roy has been able to keep it together, and when caught on the back foot with a member down was able to come up with a plan to strike back. What I'm hoping for is that he'll be able to take this sad news and still keep it together, work out what to do. Even if he comes to the conclusion that it's hopeless and opts for plan Miko, I think that would be a tactical evaluation rather than a moment of panic or despair.

[sam79]

Roy's leadership since arriving in Windy Canyon has been 'effective' the same way as Baldrick's plans were 'cunning'. I'm not seeing it.:smallconfused:

His ambush of the Linear Guild was pretty effective, even if it resulted in only a partial victory.

But then he had a party of six split into...four. (Belkar away fighting the Hellhound, Durkon going to fetch him, V MIA, and Roy, Elan and Haley dismaring the Obvious Door). Any genre-savvy D+D player or party leader should know that this is not a recipe for success!

[AutomatedTeller]

Poor Roy :( Sad face Roy is sad..

[LasVegasLawyer]

Belkar - they don't deserve you. :smallyuk:

Belkar - the adventurer the party deserves. Even if he's not the adventurer the party needs right now.

[jidasfire]

It's been a minor but ever-present detail in the last bunch of strips, but I really do like just how protective of Belkar Mr. Scruffy has been. First he interposed himself in front of Malack, and this time even Roy. That is one loyal cat.

I wish I could say the same about my own, who just stole my chair. :/

[Kish]

That's not a sign of disloyalty. Just of knowing who's boss. That doesn't mean s/he wouldn't defend you if someone tried to attack you with a sword.

[Adeptus]

Poor Belkar.

Also Roy still has quite a few issues to work out. Yikes!

[nephilia]

It wouldn't do any good. Vampires don't deal hit point damage when they drink blood--they drain Constitution. Belkar has a Constitution of 1 at this point, and his Constitution won't return to normal--ever--without magic. He needs a cleric or paladin to cast Restoration on him.

Fortunately, Durkon shouldn't have any trouble...

...oh wait.

The Oracle's predictions of Belkar's death haven't all referred to Belkar by name, so that's no good. He'd still be The Halfling, Your Friend, and "he."

Or drink a pots or 2 that haley could have conveniently saved for such a situation ;)

[Bluepaw]

The strip's double...it goes on forever...and -- oh my god -- it's full of feels!

[Dr. Gamera]

Or drink a pots or 2 that haley could have conveniently saved for such a situation ;)

By Rules As Written, potions only exist for spells up to 3rd level. Restoration is a 4th-level spell.

[CWH10301964]

Well, I think the story has fallen into place for me.

V has come to the realization that support is the best way to go.
Haley has already demonstrated her ability to lead a second team.
Roy has shown a willingness to work with evil for the greater good.

The Order is weaker than ever.

I believe that Roy will end up working with Malack/Durkon in order to protect the last gate in the Dwarven lands. There will be 2 clerics, one for each team, necessary to split them up to deal with the goblin cleric, as they don't know which team will run into him.

Roy is willing to sacrifice his afterlife to save the world, which is what will eventually get him into heaven.

It also means a balanced party. Since Belkar will die soon, Malack joining up soon will result in a party of 6 again.

Finally, there is one small hitch. Since Durkon is now a vampire, I expect Malack to be smart enough to get the information for why the OotS is after the gate and learn that their mission is the more important of the two. He lives forever, after all, and so delaying his own conquest by a couple of hundred years isn't really much. So he might not directly join up with the OotS. I can see him and Durkon giving support from the shadows. Perhaps even sending Durkon to the team while giving support from the shadows.

Regardless, I'm now convinced that Malack will be a member of the OotS shortly.

Uhhhm.... WOW.

This never occurred to me--but RB has such a deep cast of characters that having Malack join the OOTS for the "greater good" would be logical. Roy worked with Belkar, and in doing so, Belkar evolved. But Roy initially did so to "point and click" Belkar. While he's unlikely to accept the idea, when Xykon arrives, things are going to be desperate. Tarquin might even INSIST on such a team-up to save everything. This would be a mind-blower.

[Lightning Fast]

Stage 1: Denial.

[TopCheese]

By Rules As Written, potions only exist for spells up to 3rd level. Restoration is a 4th-level spell.

Elixers do exist... Essentially higher than 3rd level potions.

I forget the book, perhaps MIC?

[Jay R]

That would be true in an actual D&D gameworld, but as it's a story, we've seen Roy is physically capable of killing Xykon already when he got pissed over his sword breaking. Though Xykon is a poor example as he's not a wizard who's put thought into every eventuality.

Since Xykon is the threat they are worrying about, he is the exactly correct example.


Despite his efforts at 'faking' growth and being part of the team, he's pretty much slowly been developing into a less horrible person since shortly after getting the cat.

Still averages somewhat south of Neutral, though.


well... this certainly brings out an unexpected aspect of Roy.

Unexpected? Isn't this close to how Roy and Durkon treated Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), when they didn't want to believe her?


Is this going to become a 'We Hate (Insert PC Who Came Off Somewhat Negatively In The Last Strip, But Will Probably Be Redeemed In The Next Few Strips)' comic discussion thread?

Probably. Many of these threads spend a fair amount of time complaining that what eventually happens in the next few strips hasn't happened yet.

[hamishspence]

Elixers do exist... Essentially higher than 3rd level potions.

I forget the book, perhaps MIC?

Magic of Faerun has a PRC that's able to create potions of higher level spells than 3rd.

Don't think MIC has 4th level (and higher) potions- though I haven't read it recently.

[Kish]

...There's no such thing as a wizard who's put thought into every eventuality. There is no level of any class which grants the feature "you have grounds to howl at the DM if you ever lose."

(Theoretical Optimizers. Gah.)

[Anarion]

Bravo. This comic has taken a dark turn, but a powerful one. I can understand Roy's reaction, it's hard to accept reality when it decides it wants to punch you in the gut.


Elixers do exist... Essentially higher than 3rd level potions.

I forget the book, perhaps MIC?

They could also find or have made a magic item that can cast restoration. Haley would be able to use it with UMD.

[RMS Oceanic]

Without reaching beyond core, Belkar's only hope for a healthy appearance is a scroll or wand of restoration. Let's hope Durkon gave Haley some.

[allenw]

Regarding Roy: He just found out he sent his friend to his death. Of course he's in denial.



The Oracle's predictions of Belkar's death haven't all referred to Belkar by name, so that's no good. He'd still be The Halfling, Your Friend, and "he."

Well, they may still have the gender-changing belt. :smallbiggrin: Whether or not it still works is unclear, since the item never made it into the 3.0 or 3.5 SRD. In AD&D, it was one-shot; in Pathfinder, it's once-per-person. And if Belkar *did* become female long-term, she'd probably change her name.

Of course, that only handles the "he" part. "Your Friend" is easy to get around, since Belkar is definitely *not* Roy's "friend". "The Halfling" is still a problem not easily solvable with currently-available magic, though V does have Polymorph.

However, all of the above could just be the Oracle speaking informally. In his only "official" statement on Belkar's death, he said "Belkar".

[SteveDJ]

This was sooooo sad... :smallfrown:


On a side note, can somebody refresh my memory on Belkar's prophecy?
No, I don't want to hear any crazy theories (again), I'd just like to know where, other than here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the Oracle says Belkar is going to die (the overquoted "not long for this world" and "draw his last breath" sentences aren't in that strip).
The reason I'm asking is that, as far as I remember, Belkar is unaware of this prophecy (having forgotten it all because of the Oracle's Tower's memory spell, while Roy remembers because of the Resurrection loophole).
If I'm correct, that means that, in a moment of anger, Roy just abruptly told Belkar, in a moment of anger, that there is a prophecy about his death.
The little fella is kinda daft, but I don't think this one will fly over his head that easily...

No - Roy remembers it because the Oracle put it "on the record (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)" (with green dialog), so that it would stick beyond the memory charm thing.

Yea, ok, he remembered a lot of other things because of the Resurrection loophole, but if he'd been alive and in person with the Oracle at that time, it was the "on the record" action that made it memorable.

[wzeller]

Elan sobbing on Haley's shoulder (I think) is truly moving :smallfrown:

Another poster also suggested that Elan is sobbing on Haley's shoulder.

I don't think so. It's a minor point, but really the only one brought up in this thread that I disagree with that hasn't already had other people point out their own disagreement, so I thought I'd mention it.

Haley has always been a somewhat emotionally stronger character than Elan, but that's part of why it's so cool that within their relationship when she needs it she finds strength and support within him. When he's been singled out for horribleness, she's been a rock to him, but when they are both subjected to sadness, she's the one who goes to him for strength.

I think he's just holding her. Giving her the love and support she needs right now at the death of a friend, and being her strength even as he weathers the same news himself. Just as a good husband should.

I think Elan is delaying his own mourning (even if only momentarily) so that he can hold Haley and be there for her.

(The fact that such things can even be considered when the drawings are all stick figures truly speaks to Rich's amazing story telling. Simply stunning.)

m

[Kish]

However, all of the above could just be the Oracle speaking informally. In his only "official" statement on Belkar's death, he said "Belkar".
How does that matter?

If you're starting from the position "the Oracle might have lied," there's no good reason not to throw the "official" statement out the window too.

[Haluesen]

Dang all those emotions. :smalleek: Very believable and strongly defined characters we have here. You are to be commended Giant, for this at the very least.

I can kinda understand Roy's reaction. The way Belkar has been and how bad the news is, would you normally believe him right off the bat? Though I guess his story does have evidence...

Anyway I'm in the "no loophole to Belkar's prophesy, he will die" camp, but that doesn't mean he can't make the remainder of his time in the comic meaningful. (Though I'm pretty sure Belkar himself doesn't know about the prophesy...or does he now after what Roy said?) Yes he is a bad guy and undeniably deserves to die...but eventually. He CAN be a horrible person while still being somewhat likable, and that works for me. :smallbiggrin:

So Giant, thanks for the first-thing-in-the-morning feels.

[Filippo]

I am still surprised that Roy let Durkon go alone...

well, I guess the others were struck with the trap... but still surprises me he would risk the cleric for a party member he thinks is going to die soon

[TopCheese]

Dang all those emotions. :smalleek: Very believable and strongly defined characters we have here. You are to be commended Giant, for this at the very least.

I can kinda understand Roy's reaction. The way Belkar has been and how bad the news is, would you normally believe him right off the bat? Though I guess his story does have evidence...

Anyway I'm in the "no loophole to Belkar's prophesy, he will die" camp, but that doesn't mean he can't make the remainder of his time in the comic meaningful. (Though I'm pretty sure Belkar himself doesn't know about the prophesy...or does he now after what Roy said?) Yes he is a bad guy and undeniably deserves to die...but eventually. He CAN be a horrible person while still being somewhat likable, and that works for me. :smallbiggrin:

So Giant, thanks for the first-thing-in-the-morning feels.

What I don't get about the no loophole people is that the Oracle is all about loopholes and alternate wording that it is a bit odd to think that Belkar's death won't be some twisted messed up reasoning.

Not that I really think there is a loophole, only that there could be. Heck the Oracle said Belkar would kill him but then later had to probe the halfling into actually doing it (by using weird logic and reasoning).

[SteveDJ]

Ok, question here, about ... experience.

Belkar has survived an encounter with a vampire - two, in fact. Now, I wouldn't expect him to get defeat-monster XP, but he does come away with more knowledge about vampires than I'm sure he had before. So, would he earn some sort of 'life-experience' type of XP?

[King of Nowhere]

At first i thought roy was just being dense, then i realized he was trying to deny the death of his friend. Made me quite sad.

[Kaulguard]

Actually, guys, has Belkar ever even BEEN much of a liar? Sure he's a psychotic little maniac (which is why we love him), but I can't think of a single time off the top of my head where he's lied.

The problem is actually that every time Belkar has lied, he's been believed. He lied to protect V ("Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool"), to mock Roy ("Oh, I know, but I'm secure enough in my manhood..."), and a few other minor lies, but every one of them was believed. Roy has accused him of lying just about as often, but always in situations where Belkar is actually telling the truth. It's pretty interesting, really.

[white lancer]

It's so hard to write a reaction to something like this without making it over-the-top or anything, but I think this strip hit it pretty dead-on. Bravo, Giant--you had my eyes watering with that last panel. I think people who are taking Roy's side or Belkar's side on this comic are missing the point--this wasn't included to show Roy being a jerk or Belkar getting comeuppance for his past actions, this was included to depict a realistic reaction to a close friend's unexpected death. People react strongly when they're grieving, and I think that's what's happening here. Roy's initial reaction is denial and blame of Belkar, but I'm thinking that it'll shortly turn into blaming himself.

So many good things in this strip. Belkar finally learning about the prophecy (how will he react once he realizes that Durkon died to save him from a fate he's doomed to suffer anyway? Is Durkon's death in vain?), Haley's reasoned response to Belkar (glad Rich didn't go the easy 'Sense Motive' joke route--that would have ruined the atmosphere), Mr. Scruffy protecting Belkar, Haley and Elan's reactions in the last panel...there was some good stuff in the Malack/Belkar/Durkon series, but I think this strip trumps them all. I'm looking forward to seeing Vaarsuvius' reaction to this, as well--I've been re-reading the older strips, and I forgot how close those two seemed to be (bonding between two Tier 1ers?). I imagine he/she will blame him/herself as well--will it drive V further into his/her cycle of self-loathing, or will it finally snap him/her out of it as he/she realizes that sitting around and hating yourself isn't going to help anything?

Also, the suggestion that Malack will join the OotS...oy. Yeah, I'm sure Roy & co. will all be eager to welcome the guy who killed their best friend into the group.

[super dark33]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/073/7686178464_fdc8ea66c7.jpg

[SteveDJ]

Ok, thinking along the possible prophecy-loophole idea, here's a new angle on an old forum prediction, based on what happened in this strip.

Belkar may not have reacted to the news of the prophecy yet, but I think eventually it will 'click' with him what Roy said. Then, he will probe Roy for more details, at which point Roy will give him the exact wording of the prophecy.

Belkar, now knowing the prophecy, and knowing just how misleading the Oracle could be, will try to defeat the prophecy by doing just what others have suggested - he will change his name. :smallbiggrin:

Oh sure, it may not be enough, maybe he will still die somehow - but I'm just saying that Belkar will make the attempt. Whether it avoids/satisfies the prophecy or not - that is up to The Giant to decide...

[Haluesen]

What I don't get about the no loophole people is that the Oracle is all about loopholes and alternate wording that it is a bit odd to think that Belkar's death won't be some twisted messed up reasoning.

Not that I really think there is a loophole, only that there could be. Heck the Oracle said Belkar would kill him but then later had to probe the halfling into actually doing it (by using weird logic and reasoning).

Of course there could be a loophole. There is a lot of room for one in the Oracle's words, and the way prophesies go there usually is a loophole in the exact wording. It's one of the oldest tropes around. But just because there COULD be doesn't mean there WILL be.

The Giant has proven very good at twisting the readers' expectations. There is absolutely no knowing which way Belkar's fate could go because the Giant is just so good at keeping us guessing. So my thought of there being no loophole is more opinion than anything; I'm taking a guess based on the possible scenarios. I would love to be proven wrong, I kinda really like the somewhat new CE Belkar.

Please don't think I'm trying to be rude though. :smallfrown: I just like a bit of spirited discussion every now and then, I get involved in it so rarely. Sorry if this whole thing wast too long. EDIT: Well it looked long while I was writing it. Nevermind that. :smallredface:

[Getsugaru]

He once withheld information about not knowing it was Roy (belt of gender swap). But Roy didn't ever learn Belkar was withholding that.
Is that a subtle reference to Peter and Neal from White Collar? "I may have let you draw incorrect conclusions, but never an actual lie."


I read this strip, and think two things right off the bat:

1.) This seems like a glimpse into the Roy "stages of grief"....

:roy: You're unbelievable (Denial)
:roy: I should just finish you off! (Anger)
:roy: Why would he have...alone? (Bargaining)
:roy: (Last Panel) (Depression)
:roy: (Later Strips) (Acceptance)


2.) Why must dwarves who try to defend gates die so early? I also have a feeling that there might be some comparisons to later interactions with Roy and Belkar that look like Girard and Soon's fight. The whole "You should have been the one who died, you son of a Samwise!"

Wait. Aren't there 7 stages of grief?
1. Shock
2. Denial
3. Bargaining
4. Fear
5. Anger
6. Despair
7. Acceptance

I made a campaign once with each stage being represented by an enemy. I'm pretty sure there are 7, not 5.

EDIT: :haley: "At least we haven't heard any explosions." :smallamused:

[Vinsfeld]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/073/7686178464_fdc8ea66c7.jpg

Pretty much what I did.

[B.I.T.T.]

I like this comic. I like the realism involved. Roy has been traveling with Durkon since the beginning, not only that but they were best friends. It's only natural that Roy wouldn't want to believe that Durkon was really dead.

He also doesn't like Belkar. So it's also natural that we would attribute Belkar's news to some sick joke on his part. It took Haley, arguably his second-best friend, to talk him down.

[KyrtFurey]

Interesting detail I noticed - Roy let slip the prophecy about Belkar's demise. I don't think the Belkster was aware of that.


Yep.

Have to see if he remembers though.

It's also interesting that he admitted stringing the party along with his "good boy" routine.

[Dr.Epic]

Wow. Roy's a jerk.

[Corronchilejano]

Am I the only one that's pretty sure Belkar isn't actually meant to die? All this character development (which kinda tingles) hinges at him actually becoming a true leader (even if that wasn't his original idea).

His reaction at Durkon's death not only shows he understands the irony of the situation but also truly gets why he did it.

[krieger]

I bet someone has already mentioned that elsewhere, but:

On "Don't Split the Party", Rich says about the next volume:

"Oh, and someone will die. But I bet you already know that, right?"

The second sentence is very tongue-in-cheek, in my opinion.

But the first is clear: "someONE" will die - it was Durkon. So, I'm pretty sure Belkar won't die in this very arch. :smallsmile:

[allenw]

How does that matter?

If you're starting from the position "the Oracle might have lied," there's no good reason not to throw the "official" statement out the window too.

It matters because I'm *not* starting from the position that "the Oracle might have lied." I'm positive that his "official" statements are 100% true (though often misleading); and it seems that even his unofficial statements tend to be true (or sarcastic), to the best of his knowledge. I'm not saying that he *can't* unofficially lie, just that he generally doesn't bother. A little like Belkar. :smalltongue:

However, just because he unofficially referred to Belkar as "he", "the Halfling," "your friend," and "your pal" when talking to Roy, that doesn't mean that any of those descriptions necessarily will apply to Belkar at the time of (or after) his "last breath." Those descriptions were all true (or sarcastic) at the time of the conversation, which is sufficient for an informal conversation.

[TopCheese]

Am I the only one that's pretty sure Belkar isn't actually meant to die? All this character development (which kinda tingles) hinges at him actually becoming a true leader (even if that wasn't his original idea).

His reaction at Durkon's death not only shows he understands the irony of the situation but also truly gets why he did it.

Right now I'm looking at Belkar and the first thing that runs through my mind is what's going through HIS mind.

For the first time I think Belkar might be thinking "Wow, will anyone miss me that much when I die" or "Wow will anyone care if I would have died? Wait why do I care..."

[KyrtFurey]

What I don't get about the no loophole people is that the Oracle is all about loopholes and alternate wording that it is a bit odd to think that Belkar's death won't be some twisted messed up reasoning.

Not that I really think there is a loophole, only that there could be. Heck the Oracle said Belkar would kill him but then later had to probe the halfling into actually doing it (by using weird logic and reasoning).

Well....no.

Belkar asked the question "would he kill....".

The answer was yes.

The Oracle tried to weasel out of it but couldn't. If he hadn't tried...Belkar would have done it because it was prophesised...and hey, you can't trump the stars!!!!

As for the "no loophole"......the Oracle definitely seems to be pointing towards dead dead, as indicated by his snide remarks, and Durkon already used the "undead" escape plan. The prophecy however is that Belkar would take his last breath before the end of the year.

What's left? Belkar sacrificing himself so Durkon returns? Belkar taking the vampiric curse instead? If it is, then they'll be at Kraagors gate first because Durkon will return home posthumously. Will that be before the end of the year? That is coming around very soon.

What about Death of personality? The new Belkar seems more empathic. Doesn't seem to fit in with the Oracles belief and comments though.

[baerdith]

Aww man. That's just sad.

[Zephyr1011]

Looks like it's time for Elan's Cure Critical Wounds. He did get that spell, right? I suppose Haley might have a healing potion though.

Also, I'm still unclear on whether being a vampire is reversible or not. People are acting like it isn't, but Durkon did talk about resurrecting Malack.

[ScrambledBrains]

Looks like it's time for Elan's Cure Critical Wounds. He did get that spell, right? I suppose Haley might have a healing potion though.

Wouldn't work, Vampire bites are Constitution drain, and not hit point damage. Without an actually healer(One with a form of the restoration or similar spell available and willing to cast it on him), Belkar's gonna stay as is.


Also, I'm still unclear on whether being a vampire is reversible or not. People are acting like it isn't, but Durkon did talk about resurrecting Malack.

It's only reversible if the Vampire in question is killed first, and that's...gonna be hard to do for the Order, for a multitude of reasons.

[Psyren]

Well yeah, it's infuriating. You finally make an effort to do the right thing and be honest, and everyone else just throws it back in your face without even a hint of gratitude. People supposedly want you to be honest, but they make it impossible.

Not that I would know anything about being habitually dishonest, of course.

People rag on BoED but it actually tells Good characters not to do this, to try and work with formerly evil characters that are making an effort to be better, and warns that they fall back into evil much more easily if their friends aren't ready to trust them.

As one of the few D&D books to contain good advice like this, I find myself incapable of dismissing it like so many have. Roy could stand to give it a read-through, lest he get stuck on the cloud next time he goes up.

[Kish]

What I don't get about the no loophole people is that the Oracle is all about loopholes and alternate wording
Insupportable. His prophecies have been overly literal ("In his throne room"), but never loopholed. The sorcerer who killed Eugene's master goes by Xykon, Vaarsuvius killed the ancient black dragon's son, Haley got her voice back by ignoring her doubts about "Elan."

--And he spent one strip trolling Belkar, before Belkar's prophecy came true in the most literal way imaginable. Since that happened, people arguing that the Oracle is All About Loopholes have relied on treating everything the Oracle said in that strip as prophecies, ignoring the Oracle saying he wasn't buying them himself.

[white lancer]

Am I the only one that's pretty sure Belkar isn't actually meant to die? All this character development (which kinda tingles) hinges at him actually becoming a true leader (even if that wasn't his original idea).

His reaction at Durkon's death not only shows he understands the irony of the situation but also truly gets why he did it.

To me, Belkar's character development seems to be leading more towards a heroic sacrifice than him becoming a true leader. I haven't really seen any leadership qualities from him at all, but it would make sense to me if his increased empathy resulted in him sacrificing himself to stop Xykon/save one or all of the members of the OotS.

[LordofNaught]

Amusing how people are talking about loopholes and the Oracle, when they should be noting that the Order is going through an important moment in their lives. From the looks of it Roy went through the stages of denial (that is what it is right? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong), pretty quickly there, skipping bargaining and maybe another one. Again, I can't recall them all, which translates into, "I'm too lazy to open another tab and Google them."

Still, important moment, character development, now I have to wonder what they'll do with Durkon gone. Besides soldier on that is.

[F.Harr]

I know it's been said, but poor Belkar. He's worked so hard to fake character growth and is still suspected; because, well, he's a bastard, usually. This is the sort of thing that drives characters in the process of redemption away. It reminds me of the scene in The Lord of the Rings where Sam rejects Gollum.

[F.Harr]

I am still surprised that Roy let Durkon go alone...

well, I guess the others were struck with the trap... but still surprises me he would risk the cleric for a party member he thinks is going to die soon

He probably couldn't stop him. Still, Elan should have gone, too.

[F.Harr]

Amusing how people are talking about loopholes and the Oracle, when they should be noting that the Order is going through an important moment in their lives. From the looks of it Roy went through the stages of denial (that is what it is right? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong), pretty quickly there, skipping bargaining and maybe another one. Again, I can't recall them all, which translates into, "I'm too lazy to open another tab and Google them."

Still, important moment, character development, now I have to wonder what they'll do with Durkon gone. Besides soldier on that is.

I think it goes denyal, bargening, anger, guilt and acceptance. I could have the order, wrong, though.

[onionbreath]

Did anyone notice the "turn undead" joke shortly before Belkar said that there was no punchline? :smallsmile:

Yeah, that was poor even for Belkar. (It made me so angry IRL I actually had to stop reading for a couple minutes) If that joke had been a couple panels later (after the reality of the situation had set in) I think Roy would have completely snapped and destroyed him on the spot. I wouldn't have blamed him for it either.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Who's the one with Sense Motive, Roy?

This one. :haley:

[Killer Angel]

"poor" Belkar... it sucks, to be Peter and the wolf.

[TopCheese]

Well....no.

Belkar asked the question "would he kill....".

The answer was yes.

The Oracle tried to weasel out of it but couldn't. If he hadn't tried...Belkar would have done it because it was prophesised...and hey, you can't trump the stars!!!!

As for the "no loophole"......the Oracle definitely seems to be pointing towards dead dead, as indicated by his snide remarks, and Durkon already used the "undead" escape plan. The prophecy however is that Belkar would take his last breath before the end of the year.

What's left? Belkar sacrificing himself so Durkon returns? Belkar taking the vampiric curse instead? If it is, then they'll be at Kraagors gate first because Durkon will return home posthumously. Will that be before the end of the year? That is coming around very soon.

What about Death of personality? The new Belkar seems more empathic. Doesn't seem to fit in with the Oracles belief and comments though.

Or the answer could have been.

"No, unless I/us/they provoke you" the Kobold premeditated the provocation of the halfling and even built a city.

It is like someone asking me if I will hit them. The answer isn't "yes" it is "no not unless you take my last cheessy poof or attack me". Because I don't randomly hit ppl but if provoked I would.

Technically the kobold could have been wrong about everything he said to Belkar BUT did things to make the outcome in his favor (puppet strings). The only reason belkar killed the kobold was because the kobold wasn't useful, the kobold knew allof this but still pissed him off. Hell the kobold KNEW belkar was going to show up that day and kill him after being provoked, he could have just put a closed sign on his door like with xykon.

I'm not saying there IS a loophole, only that there is no proof great enough to show there is no loophole and that ignoring all possibilities is silly.

[tulebast]

Well....no.

Belkar asked the question "would he kill....".

The answer was yes.

The Oracle tried to weasel out of it but couldn't. If he hadn't tried...Belkar would have done it because it was prophesised...and hey, you can't trump the stars!!!!

As for the "no loophole"......the Oracle definitely seems to be pointing towards dead dead, as indicated by his snide remarks, and Durkon already used the "undead" escape plan. The prophecy however is that Belkar would take his last breath before the end of the year.

What's left? Belkar sacrificing himself so Durkon returns? Belkar taking the vampiric curse instead? If it is, then they'll be at Kraagors gate first because Durkon will return home posthumously. Will that be before the end of the year? That is coming around very soon.

What about Death of personality? The new Belkar seems more empathic. Doesn't seem to fit in with the Oracles belief and comments though.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the Oracle has made only four references to Belkar's Fate:


"The Halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA" [implying it won't be useful to him]
"He should savor his next birthday cake" [implying that he won't be able to savor birthday cake after his next birthday--note to self: has Belkar's birthday happened yet?]
"Your pal isn't long for this world" [Which technically could have applied to Durkon since Belkar isn't Roy's pal, but Durkon is/was. However, the context of the conversation was about Belkar, so I believe it is safe to say this was about him as well]
And the only official prophecy guaranteed to be true: "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year"


None of those statements, separately, nor together, explicitly state that Belkar is going to die. I acknowledge death could satisfy the conditions, but unlike Durkon's prophecy (that could only be satisfied by death/undeath), none of the above statements need be satisfied by a singular event. For instance, Belkar being turned into a golem and subsequently (at a later date) flung through the Azure City portal to forever live on the world contained within would satisfy all 4 statements (IRA can't be used on new world, can't eat cake, on a new world, and doesn't breathe).

Why, then, does everyone jump to the Belkar will die conclusion? [Not that it isn't an interesting speculation, I just don't think it likely; certainly now that we know about the other world through the portal I think it more likely that Belkar is going to end up there for good by end of comic.]

[warmachine]

I'm not surprised by the remaining party's reaction. Durkon was the heart of the party. He not just cured physical ailments, he healed disagreements. To recover from the blow of losing Durkon, what the remaining party needs is encouragement from Durkon.

[FlawedParadigm]

Yeah, that was poor even for Belkar. (It made me so angry IRL I actually had to stop reading for a couple minutes) If that joke had been a couple panels later (after the reality of the situation had set in) I think Roy would have completely snapped and destroyed him on the spot. I wouldn't have blamed him for it either.

I...don't think you understand Roy very well. Roy has momentary lapses, like when he strongly considered abandoning the kidnapped Elan, but if you seriously think he would murder anyone over a joke...heck, if he were going to do that, he'd have probably done it back when Belkar had told him he didn't trust him enough to believe Roy lied to him.

[denthor]

least favorite comic

[TopCheese]

Yeah, that was poor even for Belkar. (It made me so angry IRL I actually had to stop reading for a couple minutes) If that joke had been a couple panels later (after the reality of the situation had set in) I think Roy would have completely snapped and destroyed him on the spot. I wouldn't have blamed him for it either.

This was actually one of my favorite jokes in the comic, reminds me of my groups tend to play it.

Not LOLROTFL but still gold.

[onionbreath]

I am still surprised that Roy let Durkon go alone...

well, I guess the others were struck with the trap... but still surprises me he would risk the cleric for a party member he thinks is going to die soon

If Durkon knew about the prohpecy, do you think he still would have gone?

[FolcoTook]

And so the OOTS has truly plucked defeat from the jaws of victory. Just 20 strips ago they were cleaning the dungeon with the LG.

[TopCheese]

And so the OOTS has truly plucked defeat from the jaws of victory. Just 20 strips ago they were cleaning the dungeon with the LG.

Well Tier 1 prepared to be a Tier 1 is usually strong enough to take out an unoptimized party even if they contain tier 1 members.

Malack can solo the order haha

[Sutremaine]

Restoration is 4th level, which puts it in the range of Limited Wish. Vaarsuvius could sort it out tomorrow, or today if she has it prepared and gets back with the party.

[Peelee]

Was Roy's comment on how Belkar's antics really WILL get one of them killed based on the fact that the party doesn't know Belkar killed the Oracle, so in their minds his prophecy (will get get to kill Roy, V, Miko, the horse, or the oracle) is still unfinished?

[zimmerwald1915]

Was Roy's comment on how Belkar's antics really WILL get one of them killed based ok the fact that the party doesn't know Belkar killed the Oracle, so in their minds his prophecy (will get get to kill Roy, V, Miko, the horse, or the oracle) is still unfinished?
They know Belkar stabbed the Oracle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

[SaintRidley]

People rag on BoED but it actually tells Good characters not to do this, to try and work with formerly evil characters that are making an effort to be better, and warns that they fall back into evil much more easily if their friends aren't ready to trust them.

As one of the few D&D books to contain good advice like this, I find myself incapable of dismissing it like so many have. Roy could stand to give it a read-through, lest he get stuck on the cloud next time he goes up.

Of course, Roy recognizes and Belkar admits that there is no "making an effort to be better" but only "pretending to be a team player in order to get the rest to ease up on Belkar."

[ZerglingOne]

Oh... right in the feels ><

[SaintRidley]

They know Belkar stabbed the Oracle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

Well, Haley, Celia, and Belkar all forgot about it. That's why Belkar getting fired was reversed, after all. But Roy didn't forget. He might have told everybody about it.

[sims796]

Yeah, that was poor even for Belkar. (It made me so angry IRL I actually had to stop reading for a couple minutes) If that joke had been a couple panels later (after the reality of the situation had set in) I think Roy would have completely snapped and destroyed him on the spot. I wouldn't have blamed him for it either.

Then, of course, Roy would be a psychopath, unfit to wield his Lawful Good banner.

At the same time, you can clearly tell that this is hard for the Belkster. He's not making that joke to be funny at all. Hell, one could see that he's trying to find the right way to break the news to his colleagues.

[Snails]

well... this certainly brings out an unexpected aspect of Roy.

Not really. Roy was raised by a world champion of jerks, as LG people go, and he has shown such rough edges often enough in the past. To Roy's credit, he has grown up. A little regression to old habits while emotionally shocked is none too surprising.

[Leirus]

Oh my god. Poor Roy.What a sad couple of strips. The fact that he even started to attack Belkar shows how badly he takes what happened to Durkon.

[Deepbluediver]

It seems to me that Roy's reaction is perfectly understandable. He is getting angry because he actively wants to disbelieve Belkar.

Durkon is one of Roy's oldest friends, and is probably the group member who mirrored his alignment most closely. And, this pure speculation on my part, but he may have served as something of a replacement father-figure/moral supporter, since Roy certainly didn't get much of that from his biological dad.

[Kish]

The only reason belkar killed the kobold was because the kobold wasn't useful,
Huge assumption.

Your post contains several times, written in different words, "Belkar would not have killed the Oracle if the Oracle hadn't provoked him in some way more avoidable than by existing." Each time, it is a huge assumption. Considering Belkar's attitude toward kobolds and his attitude toward living beings, I would say that if you think it's more likely that the Oracle wasn't doomed from the second Belkar set foot back in the Sunken Valley without Roy there to restrain him, you're betting the long shot to the point of almost throwing your money away.

[Commander672]

The medic is dead
The Wizard separated and suffering from massive guilt
The Ranger from massive blood loss with an imminent prophesied death.
Two vampires, an overlord, an evil twin, a goblin cleric and a Lich all incoming,
And the few people who were capable of actually defending the gate are dead.


How in the HELL is the order gunna get out of this one?

[GigaGuess]

I can kinda understand Roy's reaction. The way Belkar has been and how bad the news is, would you normally believe him right off the bat? Though I guess his story does have evidence...

Thing is, I didn't read it as he didn't believe Belkar, it's that he didn't WANT to. He wanted it to be some sick joke, he wanted to have Belkar crack up, and pull a "KIDDING!" All because that was far easier, far kinder, far, far more pleasent than thinking one of his best and most trusted friends is now suffering what both of them would consider a fate worse than death. Naturally, as Belkar persisted in his "joke," it threatened his denial, which enraged him more and more. In the end, it wasn't just that Haley acted as the voice of reason, pointing out the fact that Belkar's personality isn't such to fabricate a heroic sacrifice, much less one that saved his own hide, it was that she acted as the final push to get him to see past what he wanted to be true, and to see what was.

[SavageWombat]

What if Roy's big development here is to realize how sanguine he's been about allowing a party member to die? Maybe he'll do something to try to avert the prophecy.

There's a subtle difference between a prophecy being "wrong" and a prophecy being "averted". Kind of like the Y2K crisis.

[Ted The Bug]

Great job on Roy's response - denial/anger are underplayed as responses to grief in a lot of stories.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anyone else get a vibe like the end of Pitch Black off of Belkar's line "he defended me and got murdered for it!"?

I think the odds of Belkar getting killed pulling a kamikaze play against Malack have significantly increased as well.

[TopCheese]

Huge assumption.

Your post contains several times, written in different words, "Belkar would not have killed the Oracle if the Oracle hadn't provoked him in some way more avoidable than by existing." Each time, it is a huge assumption. Considering Belkar's attitude toward kobolds and his attitude toward living beings, I would say that if you think it's more likely that the Oracle wasn't doomed from the second Belkar set foot back in the Sunken Valley without Roy there to restrain him, you're betting the long shot to the point of almost throwing your money away.

No assumption.

When did Belkar kill the oracle?

When he first met him? Sure he threatened him but he was held back and told not to because the party needed him.

The second time Belkar met him? No not until the Oracle decided to push Belkar's buttons. The Oracle made a conscious decision to provoke the halfling whereas the oracle made a conscious decision to just not be there when xykon was gone.

The oracle gave belkar crap information and loopholed his way through the explinations that the oracle even said he wasn't buying his own explinations.

And it just hit me WHY the oracle is lying/wrong. Not to get at Belkar but to reform him to save countless kobold lives.

If Belkar didn't kill the oracle then he never would have set off the mark of justice.
If Belkar didn't set off the MoJ then he never would have became a team playa
If Belkar never became a team player he wouldn't empathize with anyone/thing (enor ganjii scruffy and possibly durkon/rest of party)
If he doesn't empathize then he can't have character developement and become less of a little puke that defiles dead kobolds and slaughter kobolds on sight.

Thus the old (kobold killing crazy halfling) will be gone from the earth and the new tolerate non kobold defiling belkar will take his place!

>.>

[sam79]

Unless I am very much mistaken, the Oracle has made only four references to Belkar's Fate:


"The Halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA" [implying it won't be useful to him]
"He should savor his next birthday cake" [implying that he won't be able to savor birthday cake after his next birthday--note to self: has Belkar's birthday happened yet?]
"Your pal isn't long for this world" [Which technically could have applied to Durkon since Belkar isn't Roy's pal, but Durkon is/was. However, the context of the conversation was about Belkar, so I believe it is safe to say this was about him as well]
And the only official prophecy guaranteed to be true: "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year"


None of those statements, separately, nor together, explicitly state that Belkar is going to die. I acknowledge death could satisfy the conditions, but unlike Durkon's prophecy (that could only be satisfied by death/undeath), none of the above statements need be satisfied by a singular event. For instance, Belkar being turned into a golem and subsequently (at a later date) flung through the Azure City portal to forever live on the world contained within would satisfy all 4 statements (IRA can't be used on new world, can't eat cake, on a new world, and doesn't breathe).

Why, then, does everyone jump to the Belkar will die conclusion? [Not that it isn't an interesting speculation, I just don't think it likely; certainly now that we know about the other world through the portal I think it more likely that Belkar is going to end up there for good by end of comic.]

A small point; why do you assume that there is no cake to be had on the Rift-world?

A slighter bigger point; the difference between the 'official' prophesy and the Oracle talking off-hand is not anything to do with their accuracy; as he makes clear, he predicts the future just fine in casual conversation. It is just that the 'official' prophesy is all that the customers pay for, and thus it is (usually) the only thing they get to remember.

More substantial point; my reading of the relevant strips with the Oracle/Roy/Belkar makes me think that he (the Oracle) is pretty smug about Belkar's eventual fate. This points towards, as do the simplest interpretations of his words, an imminent (and possibly) violent end. Why would the Oracle be lording it over Belkar if what he forsees is the halfling cheating death?

Ironic point; you assume that Belkar dying is jumping to conclusions, and posit as an alternative Golem-Belkar living happily ever after in Rift world? I concede that either scenario is possible, but I won't be wasting money betting on the second.

ETA: As for the four Belkar prophesies being mutually exclusive; not quite. Doesn't the Oracle give the 'official' prohesy as a clarification of the other remarks, implying that he is referring to the same event?



How in the HELL is the order gunna get out of this one?

Order of the Stick Plan A; Run Away!

[LuPuWei]

And now the Order joins the rest of us in mourning... :smallfrown:

[F.Harr]

Just in case the link helps the discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stages_of_grief#Stages

[137beth]

This is probably the first time that Haley believed someone was telling the truth and Roy didn't (well, second if you count the time Roy bluffed Haley).

[Cerlis]

two things that really get me

Apparently Durkon ASKED if you could go look for Belkar. Despite fully admitting to anyone that he's a little psycho Durkon wanted to make sure (personally) that he was ok.

If you go back to the comic, and just look at the first panel, you begin to realize how well this points out how in life all it takes is a few moments to go from the status quo, to your world being turned upside down and someone you love is gone. Whether its a phone call or a half dead halfing

[F.Harr]

It seems to me that Roy's reaction is perfectly understandable. He is getting angry because he actively wants to disbelieve Belkar.

Durkon is one of Roy's oldest friends, and is probably the group member who mirrored his alignment most closely. And, this pure speculation on my part, but he may have served as something of a replacement father-figure/moral supporter, since Roy certainly didn't get much of that from his biological dad.

Not just his alignment, but his personality, too. Both were reliable, had good sences of humor and Durkon also help keep Roy's temper in check. They were true friends.

[Kish]

No assumption.

When did Belkar kill the oracle?

When he first met him? Sure he threatened him but he was held back and told not to because the party needed him.

The second time Belkar met him? No

Yes.

Yes, he killed the Oracle the second time he met him. You throwing more words at "it's only because the Oracle provoked him" does not make that somehow not an assumption. Even if the Oracle had been painfully, uncharacteristically polite to Belkar, "He's a kobold" and "He told me 'no' when I asked if I was going to get to kill any of the people I want to kill! :smallfurious:" would have constituted far more reason to kill the Oracle than he had to kill Solt Lorkyurg, and that is provably more reason than he needs.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the Oracle has made only four references to Belkar's Fate:

[LIST=1]
"The Halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA" [implying it won't be useful to him]
"He should savor his next birthday cake" [implying that he won't be able to savor birthday cake after his next birthday--note to self: has Belkar's birthday happened yet?]
"Your pal isn't long for this world" [Which technically could have applied to Durkon since Belkar isn't Roy's pal, but Durkon is/was. However, the context of the conversation was about Belkar, so I believe it is safe to say this was about him as well]
And the only official prophecy guaranteed to be true:

Why is this the only one that's guaranteed to be true? Argue that the Oracle is a liar, or accept that the Oracle is telling the truth. But don't make an arbitrary distinction.

"Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year"

And, before that last one, he said, "The same thing I said the last time."

So. You need a way that "will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year" is the same thing as "should savor his last birthday cake," "isn't long for the world," and, "shouldn't bother funding his IRA." It's not enough to come up with four separate loopholes that result in the Oracle having made four separate, unrelated statements.

[JSSheridan]

By Rules As Written, potions only exist for spells up to 3rd level. Restoration is a 4th-level spell.

Miko had a potion of Cure Critical Wounds, a 4th level Cleric spell, that Belkar jacked.

Comic 281 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html)

[onionbreath]

two things that really get me

Apparently Durkon ASKED if you could go look for Belkar. Despite fully admitting to anyone that he's a little psycho Durkon wanted to make sure (personally) that he was ok.

If you go back to the comic, and just look at the first panel, you begin to realize how well this points out how in life all it takes is a few moments to go from the status quo, to your world being turned upside down and someone you love is gone. Whether its a phone call or a half dead halfing

I agree completely. The fact that Durkon asked Roy first makes the emotions that much more powerful. Think about the guilt you feel when a decision that seems harmless at the time turns out much worse due to circumstances beyond what you could predict.

It's so much worse here for Roy because could have foreseen something bad happening; he knows Belkar is going to die (not necessarily here, but very soon) anyway. He could have told Durkon not to go because it was hopeless and then explained why. Maybe Durkon would have stayed (interestingly, making the prophecy self-fulfilling).

[St Fan]

What next? Well, now it the perfect time for Hinjo to contact them through a sending and inform the party that Xykon and Redcloak are on their way to the ziggurat.

When it rains, it pours, even if they're in the desert.

That should make them realize just how screwed they are and urge them to get the hell out of dodge, right now. (Too bad they still have an elf wizard missing.) Let the Linear Guild and Team Evil sort it between themselves, and watch from a safe distance. As in, from another continent.

[Haluesen]

Thing is, I didn't read it as he didn't believe Belkar, it's that he didn't WANT to. He wanted it to be some sick joke, he wanted to have Belkar crack up, and pull a "KIDDING!" All because that was far easier, far kinder, far, far more pleasent than thinking one of his best and most trusted friends is now suffering what both of them would consider a fate worse than death. Naturally, as Belkar persisted in his "joke," it threatened his denial, which enraged him more and more. In the end, it wasn't just that Haley acted as the voice of reason, pointing out the fact that Belkar's personality isn't such to fabricate a heroic sacrifice, much less one that saved his own hide, it was that she acted as the final push to get him to see past what he wanted to be true, and to see what was.

No no, I agree with you. Guess I just didn't phrase my sentences quite right...but yes, I do believe that Roy was in denial, not just outright disbelieving Belkar. Though Belkar's natural personality and past actions do help Roy to justify his denial to himself.

All in all a very realistic portrayal of grief and trauma at the loss of a dear friend. All discussions of prophesies and sudden surprising actions aside, this whole comic is about the grief and pin of a group of friends learning of the loss of one of their number. And I respect the Giant for his skill in showing it all so well.

[sam79]

What next? Well, now it the perfect time for Hinjo to contact them through a sending and inform the party that Xykon and Redcloak are on their way to the ziggurat.


That, or they open Obvious Door to find Team Evil already behind it, embarked on the Gate ritual.

Xykon says "what?" , probably followed by "Meteor Swarm."

[Zephyr1011]

That should make them realize just how screwed they are and urge them to get the hell out of dodge, right now. (Too bad they still have an elf wizard missing.) Let the Linear Guild and Team Evil sort it between themselves, and watch from a safe distance. As in, from another continent.

And leave the gate for Xykon? Xykon'll most likely blow through the Linear Guild, reach the gate, and then they're screwed. They will die if Xykon gets the gate, they may die if they try and stop him. Which one seems a better option?