What further character development do you think the OoTS will require to succeed?

[theangelJean]

From a throwaway line from The Giant in a thread about character skill/power progression:



... If someone wants to make the argument that the Order hasn't had enough character growth to beat Xykon, that would be a wholly different conversation.

Of course I'm not here to make that argument, but it's an interesting point to ponder all the same. All the characters in the Order have their flaws, none of them are perfect. In many good/well-written stories the characters learn something about the nature of their own flaws and possibly something about how to counter them, as well as learning how to use their strengths. (Or they might just learn to adapt without over-analysing it.) We already have a few great examples in the story so far, but by the sounds of it there is still a fair amount of story left to be told.

What I'm wondering is, what specfically do you think the OoTS characters have still to learn? And how do you think it might help them achieve their goals? (Not a question for the Giant, obviously - we will find out what he has planned, eventually!)

I'll start with one example from the latest strip. Roy has had difficulty trusting the judgement of some of the members of the Order since the beginning of the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html). (The feeling of needing to do everything oneself - and the understanding that this is not always necessary - is something I can sympathise with.) He has gradually learned to place his trust in Haley, and even give some small responsibility to Elan, but Belkar has given him the most trouble, and in the latest strip we see how he struggles to accept Belkar might be serious. I wonder how much trust he will need to place in the little guy before the end of the story, and if it will become a necessary part of the future plot.

Any other ideas? I guess I can't limit this to the Order only, although they're the most likely to have character development, so feel free to include any vaguely sympathetic character who might have something to learn.

[Lvl45DM!]

Roy has to learn to trust others I think. But dammit the rest of the party is far far too complex for me to begin figuring it out properly. I dunno everyone in the party is pretty arrogant except for Elan, but somehow i don't think humility would be the key.

[Coldwind]

I think they are done with character developments. They should have learn how to be a team. Well, with Durkon's depart and belief of Belkar's soonish death, it seems they are not capable of doing the team development.

[nogall]

I think they are done with character developments. They should have learn how to be a team. Well, with Durkon's depart and belief of Belkar's soonish death, it seems they are not capable of doing the team development.


They are learning how to be a team, as the last sequence with the Linear Guild shows. But to fully complete their character development journey, they must yet learn to:

- work with the whole team (many pointed correctly that in most battles the order is missing one or many members. In this last battle, it was without V)

- learn to plan better. They are learning to respond to threats and hostile situations, but maybe they could have a better starting position if they learn to plan (and maybe learn also how to persuade others to fight with them - azurites, V's master, the guy with the halberd, anybody!)

[AngryHobbit]

Well, they are all getting some character development.
Belkar has seen selfless sacrifice, something he still can't understand (i really hope Rich doesn't kill him soon, that would be too much short guys dying in such a short time), and is slowly changing his perception of the world. Not that it will change his alignment, but still...
V is learning humility, and that Explosions don't solve everything.
Haley has learned to trust people more.
Turning Durkon into a vampire was actually a good idea. He was badass, but bland character before. Now I really wonder what will happen with him.
Elan - I don't know. Maybe he'll get some Break The Cutie moment soon.
Roy - He has to learn to depend on others. It's too early too see what kind of impact will Durkon's fate have on him.

[nogall]

I think Elan has to learn that as he grows, he can depend less on his family - or even face them - as he is making a new one with Haley (also his friends are a family of sort)

[Turgon9357]

Has Elan and Haley's relationship been really strained yet? While them being apart during DStP certainly tested them and pushed them to grow, it didn't have anything to do with either of them as characters. Neither have them have really done anything to put their relationship in jeopardy (which would probably get resolved for the better).

Then again, they could just as easily not have to deal with that during the life of the strip, if Giant doesn't want to explore anything else through them.

[theangelJean]

That's a very good point, although there was always the chance that Elan's relationship with Therkla could have stirred Haley to jealousy. Instead it was used as an example of communication and openness, which was still new for Haley. Not sure how much the Giant is interested in exploring relationship difficulties - we've already seen at least one misunderstanding between Nale and Sabine, but if the comic is going to go with "problems can be solved" and leave the angsting to, oh, more than half of everything else ever written, then that's fine with me.

I did have further ideas when I wrote the first post, just wanted to see what everyone else thought. The most obvious one is Durkon ... his future character development is the question on everyone's lips at the moment. I'm wondering if his refusal to compromise in the face of evil is going to be challenged - not that it's necessarily presented as a flaw here, it's possibly a virtue, but it's a character trait that might possibly change with circumstances. Or not.

[Vinyadan]

Elan would have to become some more useful; he is normally listed as a negative gain. When was his diplomacy useful? He usually backfires.

Haley should stop withholding information, but she's got better already. (finding a way to bypass crit. immunity would also be nice, but that is something else)

Belkar should become someone else. Yes, he is useful, but really- argh. Maybe it is possible to handle his ambition? An ambitious halfling who wants to show he's the best in the group, as he is evil and the others are therefore dumb or weak?

Durkon should get back to life and stop being so passive.

Roy should gain flexibility. He is organized, but he also is in a bad situation, as the others are incapable of working without him. He should teach them to think as a group, which he also doesn't do.

Vaarsuvius is a little bit better than before, but he still is too concerned about himself. Having Blackwing around is good for him, but the effects are slow.

So yes, they need to learn to be a team. And maybe solve parental issues.

[Kazul]

What further character development do you think the OoTS will require to succeed?

At least ten more character levels each :smalltongue:

Being serious: I'd say their flaws aren't even that much important, because all of them (well, excluding Belkar, sure) seem really dedicated to that "save a world" thing. The recent events, however, show us how weak the Order is as a team, an aggregate. One member gone MIA, one dead, and they stand there waving swords against each other? I understand, stress, personal tragedy etc... but they may be no better at all than the late Order of the Scribble.

So, I find the teamwork to be an element the Order needs to focus on.

[gerryq]

Judging from what Blackwing saw in the Rift, perhaps the Snarl has had character development. Which may turn out to be a final Deus Ex Machina, no doubt at Kraagor's Gate.

[Incom]

Third Law of GITP: As the length of a thread increases, the probability of someone using the phrase
Deus Ex Machinaapproaches 1.

(The first two, of course, being the same, but for Miko, V, or Belkar's alignments and V's gender. respectively.)

EDIT: I should probably answer the title question of the thread.

V needs to snap out of his current hysteria and start fixing things rather than panicking over them.

I think Elan's probably complete as of the end of this arc, but we'll see.

Haley probably has a bit more interaction with Ian, Geoff, and eventually Ivy to go through before she's "completed" per se.

Roy's probably going to get some as soon as the next strip goes up.

Belkar doesn't have long to live anyway. Maybe he gets vamped after all?

And Durkon... well.

[ti'esar]

Third Law of GITP: As the length of a thread increases, the probability of someone misusing the phrase


Deus Ex Machina

approaches 1.

There, that's more like it.


That's a very good point, although there was always the chance that Elan's relationship with Therkla could have stirred Haley to jealousy. Instead it was used as an example of communication and openness, which was still new for Haley. Not sure how much the Giant is interested in exploring relationship difficulties - we've already seen at least one misunderstanding between Nale and Sabine, but if the comic is going to go with "problems can be solved" and leave the angsting to, oh, more than half of everything else ever written, then that's fine with me.

Yeah, I think I agree with this: now that it actually exists, Elan and Haley's relationship is much more likely to be used to work to their benefit then it is to have additional drama inserted.

[F.Harr]

Roy has to learn to trust others I think. But dammit the rest of the party is far far too complex for me to begin figuring it out properly. I dunno everyone in the party is pretty arrogant except for Elan, but somehow i don't think humility would be the key.

Perhaps Elan needs to become more arrogant.

That was a joke.

[Incom]

Arrogant Elan would be hilarious Nale, Miko, and Ian combined.

[gerryq]

[QUOTE=ti'esar;14926539]
*mis*using the phrase Deus Ex Machina

There, that's more like it.
QUOTE]

If I misused a word/phrase, it was "final". In fact Rich doesn't use Deus Ex Machina much. But if the Snarl itself is released, but pulls off a big surprise... the expression is reasonably appropriate, even if the Snarl is not precisely a god.

[Lvl45DM!]

Oh no we aren't starting another DEM debate in here!

Upon further reflection Im more interested in seeing what character development they've had so far that will be directly useful in beating Xykon

[Kish]

*mis*using the phrase Deus Ex Machina

There, that's more like it.


If I misused a word/phrase, it was "final". In fact Rich doesn't use Deus Ex Machina much. But if the Snarl itself is released, but pulls off a big surprise... the expression is reasonably appropriate, even if the Snarl is not precisely a god.
And wouldn't be coming out of a machine.

So...the word Ex would fit!

[theangelJean]

Oh no we aren't starting another DEM debate in here!

Upon further reflection Im more interested in seeing what character development they've had so far that will be directly useful in beating Xykon

Hmm, it's true that the Order haven't had many of their new ideas and skills tested against Xykon yet. There's been plenty of application against the LG and Tarquin though (as well as "against" plot machinations such as Shojo's, even if he wasn't an adversary).

I can think of at least one Xykon example though: when Haley realised the 3 Xykons at Azure City were a con, and Roy relied on her judgement. (Not sure if that also says anything about Haley's character development at the time, although she did once think of herself as part of the completely unreliable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html) section of the party.) Granted, there weren't any huge consequences at the time, because the real Xykon turned up right away, but it's a start?

[zimmerwald1915]

If we accept it as true that the characters' mechanical development and character development are related dialectically, constantly impinge on each other and push each other forward, then it should be possible, in broad strokes, to derive either the mechanical skills they will develop to beat Xykon (which may or may not resemble common Internet wisdom for fighting liches) from their character arcs, or vice versa.

[theangelJean]

If we accept it as true that the characters' mechanical development and character development are related dialectically...

Okay, it's been a long while since I dabbled in formal logic, but I find it hard to accept this first premise, to start with! I don't see any good reason why a character's skill progression must have any kind of relationship with their "character" development. Sure, it makes an interesting story when they do (such as Elan taking ranks in Cure Poison), but there are plenty of options for ways a character can develop, which aren't even represented in the "mechanical" skillset. Even in the strictest DnD sense, it's called roleplay, right?

For example, when Belkar decided to pretend to be a team player, that's not represented by any change in skill ranks, but it's still a legitimate development for the character, and the change itself is an asset to the team. Same for Haley deciding to trust Elan (and herself). These things are important to the plot, but do they mean that the character has developed a "skill" in the DnD sense, which they will use to defeat Xykon? I don't think so...

Of course, I still have an idea these developments will be important in defeating Xykon. I just don't think they will always correlate with "mechanical skills".

Edit: I only just got what you meant by "dialectically" - that means they affect each other in a conversation-like way, right? But I still don't think that necessarily means you can derive or deduce one from the other.

[Coat]

The team will be ready to face Xykon when Elan is ready to lead it.

Elan has developed to the point that he now has abilities that are actually useful in combat. Not very powerful, perhaps, but then most people would say the same about Knowledge(architecture). It's not about what your powers are, it's about how you use them.

The Order just (well, a little while ago now) faced the toughest Linear Guild line-up they have ever had to deal with, and completely aced them. They have developed to the point that this is what they are now capable of - with Elan taking no part in that battle.

The Linear Guild are schoolground evil. I think this arc will probably see the end of them - the Order has developed to the point where they're ready to start playing with the big boys. But, as Malack has shown, playing with the big boys means that unless all the Order is on form, and working together, they're going to get eaten.

They're all going to have to play their parts. Which means Elan needs to step up and deliver at the same level as everyone else on the team - and Roy needs to let him. I know that going from there to making Elan the team leader is a stretch - but to Roy, this is still the Roy Saving The World Show. He still needs to learn that the world being saved is the important thing, not that it's him doing it. So yeah, making Elan the leader is only one way to do that, but it is a narratively interesting way.

I'd say they still have a lot of character development to do. And I have no idea where the whole Durkon/Vampire thing is going. I find it very hard to imagine a free-willed Count Durkon not taking a walk in the sunlight - but then maybe that will not be a choice left open to him.