Tiers of Pathfinder spellcasters.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I was wondering. What "tier" are the Pathfinder spellcasters (cleric, wizard, sorceror, druid, witch) using abilities and spells only from Paizo Pathfinder?


I'm asking because "wizard" is Tier 1 and when I posted a homebrew meleer yesterday that matches the Pathfinder wizard and called it Tier 1, everybody said it was Tier 4, maybe Tier 3.

[zimmerwald1915]

I was wondering. What "tier" are the Pathfinder spellcasters (cleric, wizard, sorceror, druid, witch) using abilities and spells only from Paizo Pathfinder?
All the prepared casters that get access to level 9 spells (cleric, druid, wizard, witch) are Tier One. All the spontaneous casters that get access to level 9 spells (oracle, sorcerer) are Tier Two.


I'm asking because "wizard" is Tier 1 and when I posted a homebrew meleer yesterday that matches the Pathfinder wizard and called it Tier 1, everybody said it was Tier 4, maybe Tier 3.
The difference lies in the severe disparity between your Champion's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275664) most powerful Champion Abilities and the most powerful spells, both in power and quantity. There are more powerful spells than there are total Champion Abilities, and they do much more than Champion Abilities do. The bottom line when trying to bring martial characters up to Tier One is that, unless they can destroy a world one day and create a new one the next, they will never be Tier One, and that you can't create a world by smacking something really hard (though you might destroy one).

[Andreaz]

The tiering things did not change between 3.5 and PF.
For your meleeist to be T1 it has to have a plethora of powers that simply end any and all kinds of obstacles.

If all he does is kill things really well, he's T4.

[Xefas]

...you can't create a world by smacking something really hard (though you might destroy one).

Sure you can!

I did some googling, and it seems that a very strong punch from a very strong, professional boxer, can impart around 1,000 Joules of energy (link (http://www.science.ca/askascientist/viewquestion.php?qID=821)). We'll assume that this is the equivalent, in D&D terms, of an 18 Strength character's unarmed attack.

With more googling, it looks like the Big Bang released something around 4x10^69 Joules of energy (link (imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980211b.html)).

So, unless my math is wrong, all a martial character would have to do to create universes as vast and diverse as our own is have a Strength score of about 3.2x10^67 (which would also give them a +[(1.6x10^67) - 5] bonus on attack and damage rolls; nothing to sneeze at).

Or, more likely, have enough temporary abilities that they can stack together that will eventually multiply up to such a high strength, allowing for the occasional Big Bang Punch. Because it would be weird if every punch was like that.

[Man on Fire]

Tier System describes the class abilities. It generally goes like this:

Tier 1: Capable of breaking the game, largest variety of abilities, can do many thing or anything and do it very well. All spellcasters with 9 levels of spells who can choose their spells each day are here. In Pathfinder Tier 1 would be: Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Psion.
Tier 2: Can break the game if trying very hard, can do many things and very well, but won't have such variety like Tier 1. Sorcceror and Oracle are here
Tier 3: Can do multiple things and very well, but probably won't break the game. Most Patrial Casters are here - Magus, Inquisitor, Psychic Warrior.
Tier 4: Can do one thing very well or many things at average level. Barbarian, Rogue, Gunslinger and Paladin are here. Some would argue Fighter is here, some that step lower.
Tier 5: Can do one thing and isn't very good about it. NPC class Adept is here. Some would argue Monk is here, some that at Tier 4.
Tier 6: Pity the poor man for he is helpless. NPC classes belong here: Commoner, Aristocrat, Warrior.

It's clearer in D&D 3.5, in Pathfinder tiers may change depending on choosen archetypes.

[Person_Man]

I've found that it's more useful to think about Tiers in terms of resources, not power level.

High Tier classes generally have enough resources to resolve any CR appropriate situation they might come across in a game. High Tier classes will almost always have something useful to contribute unless the DM specifically contrives a situation to prevent them from doing so. "Sorry, you can't just retreat and memorize a new spell. If you don't defeat the evil guy who happens to be immune to scrying and the spells you currently have memorized within the next minute, the WORLD ENDS!"

Low Tier classes are only useful in very specific situations, and are generally useless in most others. They might be very powerful at doing a specific thing, such as dealing a lot of damage. But if a problem can't be resolved by dealing a lot of damage, they're generally useless.

[stack]

Tier 1: wizard, cleric, druid, witch

Tier 2: Sorcerer, oracle, summoner (due to spells being lower on their list and the power of summon monster and gate)

Tier 3: bard, magus, inquisitor, alchemist

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Well, in Pathfinder spellcasters may no longer Polymorph, Alter Form or Shapechange (that whole type of spells just gives limited, hardwired bonuses), there are far fewer immunity spells and those that exist mostly give bonus to saves rather than outright immunity, there are no orb spells, no "you lose, no save" spells, no spells that boost CL and spell resistance checks, no save-or die spells (they now deal damage), fewer ways to avoid costs, some problematic spells have been fixed (glitterdust for example) and so on and so forth.

The only major exploit remaining is Gate but I'm not especially worried about that. More called creatures means more treasure and XP for those that do kill them and less treasure and XP for the wizard.

[Andreaz]

Well, in Pathfinder spellcasters may no longer Polymorph, Alter Form or Shapechange (that whole type of spells just gives limited, hardwired bonuses), there are far fewer immunity spells and those that exist mostly give bonus to saves rather than outright immunity, there are no orb spells, no "you lose, no save" spells, no spells that boost CL and spell resistance checks, no save-or die spells (they now deal damage), fewer ways to avoid costs, some problematic spells have been fixed (glitterdust for example) and so on and so forth.Yet they still overwhelm opposition almost as often as their 3.5 counterparts. The classes themselves also have far more features than before, closing that gap.

[JoshuaZ]

Tier 1: Capable of breaking the game, largest variety of abilities, can do many thing or anything and do it very well. All spellcasters with 9 levels of spells who can choose their spells each day are here.

The spell list needs generally to be non-varied and not stink. The Healer is a prepared caster in 3.5 (This is of course a minor nitppick).

One other weirdness here also worth noting- the PF Wilder can change powers easily with psychic reformation (just like a psion), but they get very few daily powers, so it may not be enough. They are a weird boundary between T1 and T2. Without Reformation, both the psion and wilder are T2.

Belial, it may help if you read the original Tier List by JaronK (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

[JoshuaZ]

Save or Lose isn't as important as Save-or-suck or Save-and-be-isolated-from most-of-combat (the pit line of spells and aqueous orb both fall into this category for example). And much of the difference between the high tier and the low tiers is variation outside combat. A wizard can still wake up in the morning and decide to be a diplomancer, or sneaky, or duplicate a rogue's job. If anything, out of combat, wizards got step up since specialists now still have access to their opposed schools and they just use multiple spell slots. This means that if there are a handful of spells in your opposed schools that you can cast out of combat, you can do so when in 3.5 this would have been impossible. Remember, the main thing about T1 is flexibility.