Arcane/Divine/Psionic Caster/Manifester (ab)use

[Aotrs Commander]

Hypothetically, I'm looking at a arcane/divine/psion character - it could be a possibility for The Bad Guy in the quest I'm writing or possibly a character down the line. (This is, I should add, not an attempt to get all the way up to 9th/9th/9th level access - doing so requires using stuff like Ur-Priest that is on my disallowed list if I recall what I've read on it before.)

Now, a triple primary caster sounds all kinds of awesome, but before I get too carried away with the idea and cacking manically, I thought I should actually query if such a thing would be worth it; i.e. what could that combination actually DO? What could it bring to the table in a practical sense?

Specifically, what sort of tricks could a theoretical triple caster pull off that they wouldn't be able to otherwise? (I'm looking mainly for the sort of ideas you could do with various spell/power combinations, but any other ideas are good too.)

Obviously, a ridiculous number of self-only buffs (probably not a bad application for the relatively weak caster/manifester level).

I'd be looking at Wizard/Archivist/Psion as the base classes, so you can assume access to all divine spells (including domian spells) in the case of the archivist, as that's how we rule that class works.

So, any suggestions?

(Ideas for each of the component PrCs spell/power combinations are good too.)


(Mechanically, such a character would most likely be a Wizard/Archivist/Psion/Mystic Theurge/Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge. My houserules would make this more practical than in typical D&D, since the entry requirements for such generic PrC have been reduced such that they can be entered at level three (i.e., they only require 1st-level power/spell access and apppropriate skills). So it would essentially level as one level in each of the three classes and then round-robin through the PrCs. This would give you essentially 13th level casting for all three at level 21, not that I'd be looking that far ahead.)

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Did you have a look at a Shaper (psion) 5 / Chameleon (RoD111) 10 / Shaper 5?

Shapers get Bluff and Disguise as class skills, so they can qualify at level 5. This way (with the practiced manifester feat), you could have 5th level powers (ML14), 6th level divine spells (all class lists, CL20) and 6th level arcane spells (all class lists, CL20) at level 20. It comes truly 'online' at level 12, but before it can also pack quite a casting punch. In terms of spell levels available, it is just a tad lower than your build (but comes a bit sooner), but the caster level is higher and the spell lists broader (not to mention the juicy ability score increases and floating feat).

[Aotrs Commander]

Did you have a look at a Shaper (psion) 5 / Chameleon (RoD111) 10 / Shaper 5?

Shapers get Bluff and Disguise as class skills, so they can qualify at level 5. This way (with the practiced manifester feat), you could have 5th level powers (ML14), 6th level divine spells (all class lists, CL20) and 6th level arcane spells (all class lists, CL20) at level 20. It comes truly 'online' at level 12, but before it can also pack quite a casting punch. In terms of spell levels available, it is just a tad lower than your build (but comes a bit sooner), but the caster level is higher and the spell lists broader (not to mention the juicy ability score increases and floating feat).

Don't have access to RoD, so that's out. But for the sake of interest, how is the chameleon broader? (I'm not, obviously, familiar with the class.)

With the aforementioned triple theurges, you get access to sor/wiz spells (from Wizard), any divine spell (through archivist) and a goodly section of powers (Psion plus maybe the odd Expanded Knowledge) That's a pretty broad start.

(Also, with the aforementioned house rules, you would be starting on the PrCs at level 4 (a regular MT could start at level 3)).

[Dusk Eclipse]

The best way I see of doing this would a be Spell to Power Erudite/Cleric/Psychic Theurge. Without cheese it can get 9th level powers, 8th level arcane spells and around 6 or 7th level divine spells.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Don't have access to RoD, so that's out. But for the sake of interest, how is the chameleon broader? (I'm not, obviously, familiar with the class.)


It does not only get access to any divine spell, but also to any arcane spell. In short, I guess you could say it gets access to all spells of 6th level and lower. But I guess your build is broad enough, I just wanted to mention it :smallsmile:.

[Vaz]

Spell to Power Erudite 3/Archivist 3/Psychic Theurge 10/Archivist +4

Gives you Erudite 13 (so, Level 7 Arcane Spells? C'mere, Body Outside Body, let me cast my Arcane Spells), and Archivist 17.

Use Erudite to learn all Arcane (including Wu Jen spells; Giant Size and Body Outside Body - Body Outside Body makes no mention of Psionics; Spell to Power Erudite lets Arcane Spells be used as if it was a psionic power; congratulations, you can now manifest Arcane Spells up to 7th level, as can your BOB Clones.

Here's how combat pans out;
1st Round; Manifest Body Outside Body. With Practised Manifester, you gain 3 Clones. These 3 Clones then Manifest Giant Size on their turns, and interpose themselves.
2nd Round; enemy runs away from entire party +3 30meter high clones.

Be an ugly race to gain additional benefits; Neraph, for example, and look like Slaad; any enemy knowledgeable of Slaad would be scared poo-less, and run.

[Aotrs Commander]

Here's how combat pans out;
1st Round; Manifest Body Outside Body. With Practised Manifester, you gain 3 Clones. These 3 Clones then Manifest Giant Size on their turns, and interpose themselves.
2nd Round; enemy runs away from entire party +3 30meter high clones.

Be an ugly race to gain additional benefits; Neraph, for example, and look like Slaad; any enemy knowledgeable of Slaad would be scared poo-less, and run.

Now, this is more the sort of thing I'm looking for - what things I can abuse use (as DM...!) with access to psionics and both sorts of magic.

Though this particular combo might be a tad too strong for dealing with the party at the moment.

[JeminiZero]

How about using Templates to grant the Arcane Spellcasting? For example Spellstiched Undead grants Wiz/Sorc SLAs to undead with sufficiently high Wisdom. Combine this with Archivist / Psion /Divine Theurge or Cleric / Ardent / Divine Theurge for something that emulates a triple theurge. Since it has Divine Caster levels, the undead type could be a Lich if you wanted.

[Nettlekid]

Spell to Power Erudite 3/Archivist 3/Psychic Theurge 10/Archivist +4

Gives you Erudite 13 (so, Level 7 Arcane Spells? C'mere, Body Outside Body, let me cast my Arcane Spells), and Archivist 17.

Use Erudite to learn all Arcane (including Wu Jen spells; Giant Size and Body Outside Body - Body Outside Body makes no mention of Psionics; Spell to Power Erudite lets Arcane Spells be used as if it was a psionic power; congratulations, you can now manifest Arcane Spells up to 7th level, as can your BOB Clones.

Here's how combat pans out;
1st Round; Manifest Body Outside Body. With Practised Manifester, you gain 3 Clones. These 3 Clones then Manifest Giant Size on their turns, and interpose themselves.
2nd Round; enemy runs away from entire party +3 30meter high clones.

Be an ugly race to gain additional benefits; Neraph, for example, and look like Slaad; any enemy knowledgeable of Slaad would be scared poo-less, and run.

That's not gonna work. The Erudite power-learning thing states that if the Erudite gains more levels in another Psionic class than it has in Erudite (like it would at Psychic Theurge 4) then it loses its ability to learn new powers by touch. Instead, to make a totally broken master caster, just go Erudite 20. It's all you need. Because the Prestige Class Geomancer exists (Complete Divine), which mix-and-matches the best parts of divine and arcane, you can learn any divine spell from an Archivist=>Geomancer and any arcane spell from its arcane source. Then you abuse stuff like the Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum to get around UPD and also manifesting times (as well as allowing allies to use your powers), you use Body Outside Body as was mentioned to be able to manifest all your powers with clones (powers aren't spells, so Body Outside Body doesn't take them away), and if you ever run low on power points you manifest Mental Pinnacle to gain 3*CL power points. You will be as a GOD.

[Vaz]

www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

I can't see anything like that in there, but i'm reading on my phonenso struggling a little bit. Could you quote the relevant part, please?

In regard to Archivist Geomancer, you only change the mechanics of casting at the time of casting. You cannot make a Divine Scroll of an Arcane Spell unless it already exists on a Divine List (such as a Hexer gaining Sor/Wiz spells on its class list).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

I can't see anything like that in there, but i'm reading on my phonenso struggling a little bit. Could you quote the relevant part, please?

In regard to Archivist Geomancer, you only change the mechanics of casting at the time of casting. You cannot make a Divine Scroll of an Arcane Spell unless it already exists on a Divine List (such as a Hexer gaining Sor/Wiz spells on its class list).

It is described in the CPsi, so I can not quote, but I can confirm that an erudite learns two powers per level, plus any he learns through reading others' minds or using power stones. If an erudite gets more levels in a psionic class that is not the erudite class than he has levels in the erudite class, he loses the ability to learn powers beyond those two one learns standard upon leveling up.

[Callin]

Unless its been ruled out by DM or some ruling i dont know about since i didnt really keep up with errata. You dont even need Wizard unless you want to take an Arcane Prestige Class. All of the Sorc/Wiz spells you can get on the Archivist.

Spellcasting: An Archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventrually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells.

Well the Generic Spellcaster in Unearthed Arcana can be either Arcane or Divine and has access to Cleric, Druid, and Sorc/Wiz spells. Buy a scroll and add it to your Divine Book. No need for Sorc/Wiz ever. I dont even play em anymore lol because the Archivist does it all and with a bag of chips. I also use the spell points/vitality system and i NEVER run out of spells. Ever. Because all ya gotta do is hit yourself with a spell that gets rid of Fatigue/Exhaustion and you go back up to x number of PP.

Do that with a Archivist/Psion then continue into the Prestige Class that raises em both and enjoy.

[Fyermind]

I looked into making divine spells arcane for this purpose. Dragons give cleric spellcasting and several domain lists to the arcane list. With Dragons of Eberron (obviously setting specific) they also add the druid list and more domains.

Depending on how scroll crafting works, you may be able to get help from another caster (who casts the spell for you while you make the scroll) making things that effect the spell at casting time such as geomancer or southern magician effect it. I wouldn't count on that to get the tricky prestige class lists though.

Personally my life will go on even if my Erudite doesn't get Summon Giants as a third level spell, but if you find a way I can I am really interested (I can make any power stone thanks to psionic artificer, yay limited errata).

[Chaosvii7]

Spellcasting: An Archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventrually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells.

That means that it can get spells available to other divine casters. Noncleric divine spells means the other divine casting classes, such as Favored Soul, Shugenja, Sohei, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Spirit Shaman, etc.

So you can use Archivist to get ANY Divine spells, and use Erudite to get everything else.

[Wings of Peace]

So you can use Archivist to get ANY Divine spells, and use Erudite to get everything else.

Except 9th level arcane spells.

[Vaz]

If you have generic Classes, then they shouldn't be mixed with non Generic.

Just checked what it meant by Psionic Classes, and it isn't clear. A Psionic Class is one with Psionics, while a PsyTheurge advances Psionic Classes. You could easily argue that is what it means, and I stand by that.

[Fyermind]

Why can't an erudite learn 9th level spells?

[Nettlekid]

Erudites can only learn discipline powers of one level lower than the highest level power they can manifest, and the StP Erudite treats spells like discipline powers. So if you can manifest 9th level powers, you can only learn 8th level.

There are a few ways to try to get 9th level powers, but all are kind of dubious. The most common is to adapt the Epic Spellcasting feat to Epic Manifesting, which exists and says that most Epic Spellcasting stuff gets just kind of stuck in, replacing Spell for Power and Spell Slot for PP and stuff like that. Epic Spellcasting says that Epic Spells count as 10th level for spell level-related phenomena, so Epic Powers should count as 10th level, so you can manifest 10th level powers, so you can learn 9th level spells. That's the argument, but it's a little dubious.

[Callin]

That means that it can get spells available to other divine casters. Noncleric divine spells means the other divine casting classes, such as Favored Soul, Shugenja, Sohei, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Spirit Shaman, etc.

So you can use Archivist to get ANY Divine spells, and use Erudite to get everything else.

That's RAI not RAW. By RAW they can get them since they are then divine spells.

[Nettlekid]

I'm pretty sure Archivists are intended to get any Divine spell RAI as well. The language used to describe "any divine spell" is pretty deliberate. And it makes sense, too. Archivists are like a divine version of a Wizard, but faces competition in the fact that Clerics know any and all spells that have ever been called Cleric spells. If you're going for sheer variety, 2 cleric spells/level+those that you learn pale in comparison to ANY AND ALL, unless those spells that you learn can be ones that aren't encompassed the the Cleric's normal selection.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm pretty sure Archivists are intended to get any Divine spell RAI as well. The language used to describe "any divine spell" is pretty deliberate. And it makes sense, too. Archivists are like a divine version of a Wizard, but faces competition in the fact that Clerics know any and all spells that have ever been called Cleric spells. If you're going for sheer variety, 2 cleric spells/level+those that you learn pale in comparison to ANY AND ALL, unless those spells that you learn can be ones that aren't encompassed the the Cleric's normal selection.

The language seem to indicate that (I recall even Cust Serv or someone grudingly admitted that stuff like learning domain spells wasn't what they intended but the rules they'd written didn't preclude it) - and more importantly, my interpretations of the rules says that's how it works (I am the DM (and even when I'm not running the group usually decides to adopt my rulings anyway).



We don't use Unearthed Arcana (and I wouldn't allow generic classes anyway unless everyone was using them) so that is not an option.



If I might gently nudge the thread away from the discussion of how to obtain multicasting (as they are plenty of ways) and more towards what are the best uses for it? I.e. good spell/power combinations to do Horribly Things To PCs (and/or NPCs...)

[Fyermind]

Break all the action economies!
Then thumb you nose at them for 20 standard actions. Use the rest to smother them in chickens.

[Chaosvii7]

I'm pretty sure Archivists are intended to get any Divine spell RAI as well. The language used to describe "any divine spell" is pretty deliberate. And it makes sense, too. Archivists are like a divine version of a Wizard, but faces competition in the fact that Clerics know any and all spells that have ever been called Cleric spells. If you're going for sheer variety, 2 cleric spells/level+those that you learn pale in comparison to ANY AND ALL, unless those spells that you learn can be ones that aren't encompassed the the Cleric's normal selection.

I was arguing the point that somebody said that they can get ARCANE spells too on the grounds that taking them and putting them into your spellbook will make them divine, which they most certainly will and cannot. I think being able to take any divine spell is fine, but it totally makes no sense by RAI or RAW that they would be able to take arcane spells on the grounds that they are in fact arcane.

----

Not to consistently derail the topic, but mixing Tier 1 casting with Tier 1 casting with...Tier 1 casting...makes a tier 1 caster. Mixing the best with the best with the best still makes it the best, any combinations therein between any combination of abilities is considerably overpowered. The only restraint from making the combo truly OP is that you need to cast one at a time, which is a bit of a handicap for taking 3 tier 1 casters, but it doesn't outdo the fact that you can literally accomplish anything you put your mind to.

[Callin]

not to cont to derail but I never said they got Arcane spells. Sent you a message.

[Nettlekid]

I would argue that Erudite 20 is a Tier 0 caster. Someone who transcends even Wizards and Clerics in versatility and power. Built well, or even just not-poorly, they can have access to any spell you want (barring 9th level maybe, though if that Epic Manifesting trick works then anything goes), they have unlimited PP (imagine a Wizard with infinite spell slots), they can basically cast spontaneously (and use clones/Soul Crystals to bypass UPD limitations), break action economy with augmented Temporal Acceleration and Temporal Reiteration, bypass manifesting time with Soul Crystal, and can ignore material components. They are everything that makes a Wizard good, and a Cleric good, together, with more.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay.

Getting down to practical applications, then. I have begun working on said boss monster.


(In the unlikely chance any of my day-game players are reading this, stop now.)

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Right.

The bad guy is a (homebrew) vampire which they will essentially have to stake with quest-acquired staking things (not an easy job), rather than just beat to death, so I don't want to go overboard on the offense (even with potentially eight level 8 PCs). (There's a lot of homebrew stuff going on in this campaign which I'm not going to explain since it's not really relevant to the major question, which is now spell/power selection.)

I have, after working the basic stuff like AC, elected to go for what I initially thought: Archivist 1/Wizard 1/Psion 1/MT 3/Psychic Theurge 3/Cerebremancer 3. With my early-entry houserules, this gives him 7/7/7 casting at 11th caster/manifester level with feats. Which should be plenty enough for them to be going on with, especially as this fight could take some time!

The next question is, then, what flavour of psion would be the best choice. I'm tempted to kinetist for blasting maybe? (I do likes me my blasting...!)

I don't want to do too much self-buffing - as the PCs will have to strip it all off to get within spitting distance of hitting the heart AC - so Egoist is probably out; nor do I want to go Shaper for constructs, as the first chunk of the quest will be making sure this guy is alone when they fight him; Astral Constructs would kind of defeat that point!

Nomad may be another option, but I'm open to suggestions.



Following on from that, what sort of syngergistic powers/spells do you think might be useful at this level (aside from the usual obvious basics, e.g. Dispel Magic etc etc)?

[jywu98]

Simplest way is StP Erudite 20. The reason for not PrCing is the rules are unclear whether PrCs would advance Unique Powers per Day. Like someone stated above, the rules are also unclear whether PrCs that advance manifesting count as psionic powers. You can get divine spells via Alternative Source Spell, netting you with 9/8/8 manifesting with minimal optimization.

[Aotrs Commander]

Simplest way is StP Erudite 20. The reason for not PrCing is the rules are unclear whether PrCs would advance Unique Powers per Day. Like someone stated above, the rules are also unclear whether PrCs that advance manifesting count as psionic powers. You can get divine spells via Alternative Source Spell, netting you with 9/8/8 manifesting with minimal optimization.

Not really the question I was asking - at all, at this point - but for the record, as DM, I rule that if it advances manifesting class level, it advances manifesting class level as far as I'm concerned, so Erudite would not have any problems in that regard in my games; it if gets +1 level manifesting class level from Cerebremancer, as far as I'm concerned, it counts as an Erudite level for all intents and purposes with regard to manifesting.

I'd also say I really don't see what the restriction on having to keep Erudite higher than any others does aside from trying to force you into not multiclassing, so I'd be inclined to ignore it like I do all multiclassing restrictions; especially, as it does, coming out of Complete Psi, which has some... dubious choices of mechanics, despite the few gems.

Also noting that anything that allows "infinite" anything or breaks the action economy (bending it a bit you might get away with) automatically gets the response "nope, don't care what the rules say, you ain't havin' it" from me, which should remove most of the worst exploits anyway.

[jywu98]

Yeah, sorry, I just read the first post. Telepath is a pretty good choice for a discipline, containing useful spells such as Suggestion, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dominate, and Schism.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, sorry, I just read the first post. Telepath is a pretty good choice for a discipline, containing useful spells such as Suggestion, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dominate, and Schism.

Yeah, that could fit in. Toss-up whether psionic dominate is better or worse than the potential racial dominate the vampire could have; will have to crunch the numbers on that one. (Wild guess, possibly, since it might stronger, if requiring expendature of resources (e.g. PP) rather than just at will.)

(Schism is one of the few bends to the action economy I do allow. Well, certainly when it's the bad guys, at any rate (they get a bit more latitude, since I can trust me not to abuse it!))