Gestalt - Intelligence Build

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm trying to make a Bard Gestalt Character.

Pretty much I'm maximizing on the Bardic Music & All the Knowledge Skills being class skills.

Currently meant to be human, Int 18 I can afford to fully invest into 11 skills.

8 of which are knowledge which are: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Religion & The Planes

Will any of the other Knowledge Skills be useful? Or any skills in general?

Note: Despite being Bard, I don't really want to take Perform because it's a three player group, I don't want to pull my guy out of the fight for the sake of small buffs when there's so few of us already.

Also, I just don't like the concept of my guy singing, expecially in the middle of a fight where singing is the last thing someone should do.

Now, I already know what everyone's answer to what the other should be will be...

1. Be Factotoum, they maximize Intelligence!
2. Wizard for the wizard spells!

But both of those won't work.

The Facta... watcha call it class won't work because for the sake of not breaking/OP'ing the Gestalts are group restricted themselves to only the PhB and the DMG.

Wizard won't work because we've decided to have a non-spellcasting game. We got tired of a player solving almost everything with his spells, and we don't want everyone to be spell slingers to fix it, that will make the game chaotic.

So we're not allowing the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer or Druid Classes.

Bards, Rangers and Paladins are allowed, but their spell tree's are removed. No bonus given to compensate because we're already going Gestalt.

Would any Class from the PhB (outside of the four banned ones above) work well for a Intelligent Bard? Maybe a Prestige from the DMG that may work well?

Note my main focus with the second class is to reinforce his Intelligence and vast array of Knowledge skills.

Outside of that though, other things I'd like but aren't needed are(In order)

1. High Fortitude Save, DM says he'll go crazy with things like disease
2. Spot, Listen & Search as Class Skills, So my person can be aware
3. High BAB, so I can say my guy is also a good swordsman
4. High HD, so he can last longer in a fight.

[LTwerewolf]

Skill monkey rogue would be a good side. Int gets you more skill points and determines several skills such as disable device.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I should also note

-Both of the players plan to use rogue, one working to be someone who invents items and creates new devices, the other to be a doctor.

-The DM plans for the game to be roleplay dominate

-Combat is not going to happen often, but when it does it is meant to be encounters than would be a challenge to 6 typical characters.

[Vaz]

Can't really do much without casting as Intelligence In Gestalt. Limited to Core stops tricks like Knowledge Devotion, sure you know everything about everything, but other than telling your team mates how to hit something is not exactly game breaking. You don't even get Bardic Knack ACF or Half Elf Bard.

Also, you will need Charisma, and a common usage is Monk 2 at least, but that just makes you MADder.

No class other than Wizard has Int synergy in core.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Can't really do much without casting as Intelligence In Gestalt. Limited to Core stops tricks like Knowledge Devotion, sure you know everything about everything, but other than telling your team mates how to hit something is not exactly game breaking. You don't even get Bardic Knack ACF or Half Elf Bard.

Also, you will need Charisma, and a common usage is Monk 2 at least, but that just makes you MADder.

No class other than Wizard has Int synergy in core.

Without the Bardic Spells and Music, what else would the Bard have that requires Charisma?

[thethird]

If there are three of you I would totally invest in perform.

So the classes that you have are...

Ranger (without spells), Paladin (without spells), Fighter, Monk, Rogue.

Yeah... I would probably take Rogue if I wanted skills.

But, with what you want and limiting it to core I would take ranger.
---

Other than Bard music and spells what does a bard have?

[Deepbluediver]

Well, I know you wanted this to be Intellect-based, but if you are going Bard, then I assume you have at least some Charisma. So why not go Bard-UA paladin?

In terms of requirements, it gets you all the melee/defensive stuff you wanted, plus additional healing. The only thing it really fails at is the Search/Spot/Listen class skills, but with 2 other rogues in the group and yourself dumping a ton into Intellect, it's not like you will really lack for checks, I think.

[Gwazi Magnum]

If there are three of you I would totally invest in perform.

So the classes that you have are...

Ranger (without spells), Paladin (without spells), Fighter, Monk, Rogue.

Yeah... I would probably take Rogue if I wanted skills.

But, with what you want and limiting it to core I would take ranger.
---

Other than Bard music and spells what does a bard have?

My main peeve with Ranger is favored enemy.
I might still select Ranger, but the idea of his main bonus being so circumstancale, expecially when the DM can simpy choose to not send those enemies after you, it really rubs me the wrong way.

Bard does have a High Will and Ref save and bardic knowledge however when he loses his music and spells.


Well, I know you wanted this to be Intellect-based, but if you are going Bard, then I assume you have at least some Charisma. So why not go Bard-UA paladin?

In terms of requirements, it gets you all the melee/defensive stuff you wanted, plus additional healing. The only thing it really fails at is the Search/Spot/Listen class skills, but with 2 other rogues in the group and yourself dumping a ton into Intellect, it's not like you will really lack for checks, I think.

Bard = Anything but Lawful
Paladin = Lawful Good

The classes do not mix.

[thethird]

If you wanted a competitive character I doubt that you would go bard and dump charisma...

And Deepbluedriver assumed that you had the SRD available so variant classes from unearthed arcana were ok.

If it is not the case.

You need to pick between:

Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter and Rogue

Ranger has the skills that you want, the bab that you want, and the saves.

Barbarian almost has everything you want.

Fighter has the bab and the saves but lacks the skills.

Rogue has the skills but not the bab and saves.

You wanted a class that had:


1. High Fortitude Save, DM says he'll go crazy with things like disease
2. Spot, Listen & Search as Class Skills, So my person can be aware
3. High BAB, so I can say my guy is also a good swordsman
4. High HD, so he can last longer in a fight.

That is Ranger territory.

[Deepbluediver]

Bard = Anything but Lawful
Paladin = Lawful Good

The classes do not mix.

UA=Unearthered Arcana. Unearthed Arcana has varients for Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil Paladins.

If this is not allowed, I appologize for missing that.
But without a lot of splatbooks to utilize, and 4 of 11 core classes banned, your options are getting very limited. UA is different material, but still technically core-related.

I'll need to dig out my DMG and check through the PrC's for things that a bard can access.

[LTwerewolf]

By UA paladin I assume he meant Paladin of Freedom. There's also the devoted performer (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/devoted-performer--3188/) feat from complete adventurer if feats are allowed from other books.

I'm not sure why you're playing 3.5 and neutering most of what it has to offer, when there are other d20 systems that do what you're after.

[Karnith]

Pretty much I'm maximizing on the Bardic Music & All the Knowledge Skills being class skills.

Note: Despite being Bard, I don't really want to take Perform because it's a three player group, I don't want to pull my guy out of the fight for the sake of small buffs when there's so few of us already.
Can you please clarify on what you mean by these two statements? They seem contradictory, and it will be hard to offer advice without a clear statement of what you want out of your character.

Moreover, a bard without bardic music or spells is basically an Expert with bardic knowledge, which is pretty terrible, so I'd really recommend taking Perform to get something out of Bard.

Would any Class from the PhB (outside of the four banned ones above) work well for a Intelligent Bard? Maybe a Prestige from the DMG that may work well?In core, the only classes that benefit heavily from Intelligence are rogue (to absolutely max out on skill points) and wizard. Since the latter isn't an option, you're left with rogue, but a rogue/bard gestalt (especially one not using bardic music) doesn't get you that much extra from the Bard side.

Duelist is a PrC that benefits from Intelligence (Int bonus to AC when unarmored), but the class itself pretty terrible. Assassin has spellcasting, so it may be out, but Death Attack is Int-dependent.

1. High Fortitude Save, DM says he'll go crazy with things like disease
2. Spot, Listen & Search as Class Skills, So my person can be aware
3. High BAB, so I can say my guy is also a good swordsman
4. High HD, so he can last longer in a fight.
In core, given your restrictions, only ranger will satisfy all of these conditions

[Gwazi Magnum]

UA=Unearthered Arcana. Unearthed Arcana has varients for Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil Paladins.

If this is not allowed, I appologize for missing that.
But without a lot of splatbooks to utilize, and 4 of 11 core classes banned, your options are getting very limited. UA is different material, but still technically core-related.

I'll need to dig out my DMG and check through the PrC's for things that a bard can access.

The DM will still see it as another book and not allow it.

However, I'm considering switching up my idea a bit.

We start at lv.8 so I think I'll do

Lv.8 Bard, Lv. 4 Fighter/Lv.2 Barbarian/Lv.2 Duelist

Duelist offers high HD and Bab and gives spot as a class skill (Bard already has listen), and I can hold skill points back from earlier levels to invest into Spot at Lv.7.

Only thing lacking there is the low Fort and by Fighter Lv.4/Barb Lv.2 I'll already have Fort +5, which is a good starting ground.

The Fighter's bonus feats cover me for combat (+Weapon Spec), and the Barb will let me move faster and with Uncanny Dodge the Int boost to AC from Duelist should remain from flat-footed even.

Plus Duelist, fighting with just a sword and nothing else is a character concept I really like.

[Karnith]

Plus Duelist, fighting with just a sword and nothing else is a character concept I really like.
As a warning, fighting with only one weapon and no armor (as duelists are intended to do) is not well-supported by the rules, especially in core. Your armor class will be much lower than it will need to be to avoid dying, and you won't be able to deal very much damage at all (power attack returns being slim with one-handed weapons, and no other good source of bonus damage).

[Deepbluediver]

The DM will still see it as another book and not allow it.

I'm pretty sure the entire Gestalt concept is originally from Uneartherd Arcana.

[thethird]

I can hold skill points back from earlier levels to invest into Spot at Lv.7.

You can't do that :smallconfused:

Duelist is seriously terribad. Fighting with one weapon is done better with fighter or barbarian.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Can you please clarify on what you mean by these two statements? They seem contradictory, and it will be hard to offer advice without a clear statement of what you want out of your character.

This was a mistyping, I meant to say Bardic Knowledge there.


Moreover, a bard without bardic music or spells is basically an Expert with bardic knowledge, which is pretty terrible, so I'd really recommend taking Perform to get something out of Bard.
In core, the only classes that benefit heavily from Intelligence are rogue (to absolutely max out on skill points) and wizard. Since the latter isn't an option, you're left with rogue, but a rogue/bard gestalt (especially one not using bardic music) doesn't get you that much extra from the Bard side.


3 spare skill points (from increase Intelligence as I level) will go to Duelist for the requirements, so I'll have basic bardic music. But as I said earlier, I find it too crippiling to spend my turn doing nothing but giving a small buff to two players. If it was a bigger party size? Maybe.


As a warning, fighting with only one weapon and no armor (as duelists are intended to do) is not well-supported by the rules, especially in core. Your armor class will be much lower than it will need to be to avoid dying, and you won't be able to deal very much damage at all (power attack returns being slim, and no other source of bonus damage).

Int adding to AC (which will be damn high) should keep the AC up. Plus the total defense boost they get at level 7.

Though I do admit, for AC they are defelently starting out slow.

As for damage, look at their boosts to piercing weapons. +2d6 = +7 damage avg per hit, that looks like a pretty big damage boost to me.


I'm pretty sure the entire Gestalt concept is originally from Uneartherd Arcana.

Yes, but it's the only out of book concept he's allowing since it's only three players and the DM doesn't want to drop things he originally planned for six people.

[Deepbluediver]

Yes, but it's the only out of book concept he's allowing since it's only three players and the DM doesn't want to drop things he originally planned for six people.

Your descriptions started sounding really familiar to something else I replied to recently, so I went and checked.

Was it really necessary to start a second whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275476) on this topic? What was wrong with the old one?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Your descriptions started sounding really familiar to something else I replied to recently, so I went and checked.

Was it really necessary to start a second whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275476) on this topic? What was wrong with the old one?

A lot of people only bother reading the first post when they come in.

And that thread not only made it's way back buried by now so it's not as if I was flooding the main page.

As well, the 'No Magic' part went right over everyone's heads there despite how I thought I had made it clear in the first post there.

+ My character concept changed a fair amount when I relooked at my guy.

Such as no longer a face, and I didn't want to make a 180 on the thread confusing those who only read post #1.

[Karnith]

Int adding to AC (which will be damn high) should keep the AC up. Plus the total defense boost they get at level 7. Since you're giving up armor, you will need to be at least a level 8 duelist (character level 14, minimum) and have an Intelligence of 26 to get a greater AC bonus than you would have gotten from using regular full-plate, which only costs 1500 gold. Mithral full plate would even let you retain more of your Dexterity bonus to your armor class (and is treated as medium armor, with less ACP), and only costs about 16,000 gold. That's not even including any enhancement bonuses from magic armor. And if you insist on using a weapon one-handed, you could also get a shield for additional AC boosts, which duelist features preclude you from doing.

Total defense, by the way, is a losing proposition, because it excludes attacking. And fighting defensively imposes a penalty on your attack rolls, which is also bad when you're trying to hit things.

As for damage, look at their boosts to piercing weapons. +2d6 = +7 damage avg per hit, that looks like a pretty big damage boost to me.
It's not a very big damage boost, especially at character level 16, when you'll be fighting enemies with HP totals around or above 200. It's also nothing compared to what you could be getting from sneak attack (+8d6 for a 16th-level rogue), power attack (up to 32 at level 16 with a two-handed weapon), or two-weapon fighting.

[Ellrin]

3 spare skill points (from increase Intelligence as I level) will go to Duelist for the requirements, so I'll have basic bardic music. But as I said earlier, I find it too crippiling to spend my turn doing nothing but giving a small buff to two players. If it was a bigger party size? Maybe.

While starting bardic music is a standard action, as is concentrating on maintaining it in subsequent rounds for the bardic music effects that require concentration, most of your in-combat musical effects don't require concentration.

You can start an Inspire Courage as a standard action and keep singing while you attack. Or Inspire Greatness/Heroics at later levels. Countersong if your DM starts bringing sonic magic in despite denying it to you.

The only bardic music effects that require concentration to maintain are fascinate, inspire competence, suggestion, and song of freedom. Everything else you can use willy nilly. You're a core-only bard without magic. Pump your Cha and Perform as high as you can. Forget Int (having it high would be nice for bardic knowledge/skillmonkey value, but it's hardly your most important stat), and lay down some hurt.

Since you're playing gestalt, slap spiked chain trip/feint/AoO-fighter on the other side and be a bufftastic battlefield jerkbag. Now you're battlefield control and buffer--congratulations, you're a wizard-lite. On top of that, you now you can (sort of) dump dex since you're not playing with arcane magic. Wear that full-plate and laugh.

Throw in some ranger for an animal companion/free TWF. Extra meatshield that's replaceable every 24 hours? Yes please.

[ksbsnowowl]

While starting bardic music is a standard action, as is concentrating on maintaining it in subsequent rounds for the bardic music effects that require concentration, most of your in-combat musical effects don't require concentration.

You can start an Inspire Courage as a standard action and keep singing while you attack. Or Inspire Greatness/Heroics at later levels. Countersong if your DM starts bringing sonic magic in despite denying it to you.

The only bardic music effects that require concentration to maintain are fascinate, inspire competence, suggestion, and song of freedom. Everything else you can use willy nilly. You're a core-only bard without magic. Pump your Cha and Perform as high as you can. Forget Int (having it high would be nice for bardic knowledge/skillmonkey value, but it's hardly your most important stat), and lay down some hurt.

Since you're playing gestalt, slap spiked chain trip/feint/AoO-fighter on the other side and be a bufftastic battlefield jerkbag. Now you're battlefield control and buffer--congratulations, you're a wizard-lite. On top of that, you now you can (sort of) dump dex since you're not playing with arcane magic. Wear that full-plate and laugh.

Throw in some ranger for an animal companion/free TWF. Extra meatshield that's replaceable every 24 hours? Yes please.
+1

This needs to be reiterated; the bardic song abilities that are important in combat will take one round to start as a standard action. After that you can keep singing AND full attack, now with bonuses.

Barbarian is a great complement to Bard. Full BAB, all good saves, and the biggest HD in the game. Plus lots of skill points. The above fighter suggestion is also good.