Have Spear, Will Perforate? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Palanan

2013-03-13, 02:17 PM

This is a DM-only thread, so my players should take the point and leave. Or be shafted.

I'm trying to work up a concept for my campaign: a tribal champion who wanders the wilderness, living by his stealth, his wits, and his spear. He's part of a small tribe which is extremely isolated--and just a tad xenophobic--so he won't have access to traditional magic items.

Under these circumstances VoP seems like a natural fit, despite its usual drawbacks. Since I want him to be skilled and silent--but without spellcasting of his own--I'm thinking the feat-rogue variant would give a healthy number of skill points, along with the extra fighter feats to give him a little versatility with his spear.

So, here's what I've got so far:

1st..standard:..........Sacred Vow
.......flaw:................Vow of Poverty
.......exalted bonus:..Nymph's Kiss
.......fighter bonus:...Weapon Focus (longspear)

2nd..fighter bonus:...Two-Weapon Fighting
.......exalted bonus:..Defender of the Homeland

3rd..standard:..........Short Haft

4th..fighter bonus:....Haft Strike
.......exalted bonus:..[?]

5th..--

6th..standard:..........[?]
.......fighter bonus:...Combat Acrobat [?]
.......exalted bonus:..[?]

7th..--

8th..fighter bonus:....Improved Toughness
.......exalted bonus:..[?]

As you can see, there's a lot more to do, and I'm not sure how to fill this out.

I'm aware that most exalted feats are beneath terrible, and that spears in 3.5 aren't that great either. I want to keep VoP, but I'm not wedded to the feat-rogue chassis, and I'd gladly go with straight fighter if it weren't for the problem of skill points. Given these constraints, what else can I do here?

Komatik

2013-03-13, 02:27 PM

Make a Tome of Battle character perhaps? Warblade and Swordsage have decent skill points, the latter especially works great without heavy armor, and versatility in combat is pretty much a foregone conclusion.

HalfQuart

2013-03-13, 02:43 PM

You could use the UA Thug, a fighter variant. It's a bit too urban, but you could refluff it using Skilled City Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) backwards, to get Knowledge (nature) and Handle Animal as class skills, plus 4+Int skill points.

Since you've got TWF in the build, maybe just use Ranger instead?

Or you could do Barbarian? There's an UA variant that trades Rage for the ranger archery combat style -- I don't see why you couldn't use the TWF combat style instead.

Palanan

2013-03-13, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Komatik
Make a Tome of Battle character perhaps?

I should mention that for a number of reasons, I'd prefer not to use ToB classes here.

Originally Posted by HalfQuart
*ranger thoughts and etc.*

I was just wondering if he shouldn't take ranger at first level and feat-rogue thereafter; at least ranger would give him access to another exalted feat and some wilderness-appropriate skills. I'm also wondering if a couple levels of Thief-Acrobat would be any use.

Also, I realized as soon as I posted that the first two fighter feats are incorrect; a feat-rogue can't take Weapon Focus until second level, so TWF should come first. Which does argue for at least two levels of ranger. Hmm.

Toliudar

2013-03-13, 02:56 PM

Some combination of levels in ranger and scout, using the Swift Hunter feat, seems to be exactly what you're going for.

Palanan

2013-03-13, 03:36 PM

Scout...hmmm.

I've never been that drawn to the scout. Skirmish just doesn't seem that impressive when set against the extra feats from feat-rogue, and I want those feats to do as much as possible with the longspear. --Even if it's not that much.

:smallfrown:

ArcturusV

2013-03-13, 03:48 PM

I seem to be missing something. Why's Two-Weapon Fighting in there since the longspear weapon of choice is a two handed weapon?

Palanan

2013-03-13, 04:00 PM

Haft Strike (from Dragon Compendium, p. 100) lets you make a second attack with the haft of a two-handed polearm, treating the damage like a club. It requires TWF as the only prerequisite, and it qualifies as a fighter bonus feat. It's one of the few spearfighting feats I've been able to find, and at least gives him a little extra punch with the non-pointed end.

My ideal for spearfighting is the first fight scene from Hero between Nameless and Sky. Alas, this guy won't be challenging Nameless anytime soon, but at least Short Haft and Haft Strike give him a couple more options. If there are other spear-feats that would work here, I'd love to hear about them.

Toliudar

2013-03-13, 04:32 PM

It's not much of a stretch to let Spinning Halberd from complete warrior work on a spear as well. Depending on how you interpret Haft Strike, this could give you an additional offhand attack with the Halberd, and a bit of showoff-ness as well.

ksbsnowowl

2013-03-13, 05:01 PM

You never said what race this guy is, so I'm assuming that is open.

Look into the Long Reach feat from Unapproachable East. Only Gnolls and Volodni (UE plant people) can take it. It allows you to add 5 ft to the reach of any spear, but only on your turn (ie, no larger threatened area).

Palanan

2013-03-13, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Toliudar
It's not much of a stretch to let Spinning Halberd from complete warrior work on a spear as well. Depending on how you interpret Haft Strike, this could give you an additional offhand attack with the Halberd, and a bit of showoff-ness as well.

This rocks. An extra attack with a side helping of style? Why, don't mind if I do.

*scribble scribble*

Originally Posted by ksbsnowowl
Look into the Long Reach feat from Unapproachable East.

Aha, thanks for that. I didn't mention the race because it's a homebrewed subrace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231651) I worked up with the Playground's help.

As for Long Reach, it looks very much like Long Strike (Dragon Compendium, p. 101) which allows an extra five feet on a polearm attack. Long Strike limits you to one extra-reach attack per full-round action, though, so Long Reach looks a little better.

Originally Posted by HalfQuart
You could use the UA Thug, a fighter variant. It's a bit too urban, but you could refluff it using Skilled City Dweller backwards, to get Knowledge (nature) and Handle Animal as class skills, plus 4+Int skill points.

This idea is really starting to grow on me. I'm thinking two levels of ranger to start him off, and then the reworked Thug if I can swing the skill points to taste.

And then shawarma?

:smallbiggrin:

HalfQuart

2013-03-13, 05:29 PM

It sounds like he roams the world on his own, which might lean towards Scout over Rogue, as the mechanic for getting Sneak Attack can be complicated when going solo, without the usual flanking ally.

You could also use the Stand Still feat from XPH to keep people at reach. Maybe throw in Combat Reflexes.

Or Spirit Lion Totem (CC) Barbarian to get pounce?

Edit: Oh, you were thinking Feat-Rogue anyway, so that's kind of a moot point.

gorfnab

2013-03-13, 06:21 PM

Psychic Warrior might something to look into. There are quite a few powers that will shore up your defenses (Force Screen, Inertial Armor), heal damage (Body Adjustment), and help with dishing out damage (Dissolving Weapon). You also end up getting some Fighter bonus feats as well.

nedz

2013-03-13, 07:40 PM

You need Ranger 2 for the weapon style (TWF).
Then Scout 3 to qualify for Swift Hunter, though Scout 4 gives you a bonus feat, and Scout 5 for Evasion; and you would want Improved Skirmish: so maybe this isn't the path for this guy.

You could use the Wilderness Rogue ACF — it has more appropriate skills, as well as Feat Rogue.

So Ranger 2 / Wilderness-Feat Rogue 6
This would give you 3 Fighter feats plus TWF, plus the 3 general feats for level 8. Is this enough ?

Palanan

2013-03-13, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by HalfQuart
You could also use the Stand Still feat from XPH to keep people at reach.

Originally Posted by gorfnab
Psychic Warrior might something to look into.

I appreciate the suggestions, but no XPH for me.

Originally Posted by nedz
*reads my mind from 5000 miles away*

The wilderness feat-rogue is exactly what I've decided to go with. I've looked at a slew of fighter variants, but I really want those feats and skill points.

I've also decided I want to nudge him up to 10th level, and right now I'm looking for a good PrC to use for those last two levels. Thought about Thief-Acrobat, but not pizzazzy enough. What's a decent rogueish PrC with two really good starting levels?

HalfQuart

2013-03-13, 09:27 PM

What's a decent rogueish PrC with two really good starting levels?
Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm)is pretty good, but the feat tax (dodge, mobility) is painful.

I don't think any of the Exotic Weapon Master tricks would help..

It might be hard to fluff, but you could dip into Cloistered Cleric and take Knowledge Devotion.

Wildrunner (RoW) sounds like a good fit, and the primal scream +2 Str +6 Dex is pretty awesome. Does require Endurance, though. And Elf or Half-Elf, which I gather would be fine for your race.

nedz

2013-03-13, 09:34 PM

What you are looking for are as common as hen's teeth.

There are plenty of casterly ones, faux ninjas and bounty hunters — there are even exalted assassins and a mole class — but I'm drawing a blank so far.

Exemplar is very good for skills, also take a look at Horizon Walker.

Ed: Ranger 3 for Endurance BTW.

Palanan

2013-03-13, 10:29 PM

Dusk Eclipse

2013-03-13, 10:39 PM

Ranger 3/Wilderness Rogue 5/ Wild Runner 2? you loose a feat though.

Palanan

2013-03-14, 12:07 AM

I'm really leaning towards Forest Reeve. It fits perfectly with the theme of the character, especially Nature's Rejuvenation.

And then there's Wildrunner. Primal Scream is sort of Shimmy Rage Lite, but fast movement, trackless step and scent all make for a great package.

Choices, choices....

Flickerdart

2013-03-14, 12:15 AM

Instead of VoP, you could use Psychic Weapon Master, Kensai, or Ancestral Relic for that "magic item that you don't just buy at a store" feel.

Azoth

2013-03-14, 12:50 AM

Gotta like the animal companion feat from the web enhancement. Gives him a hunting buddy. Even if not a combat companion, most hunters use an animal to help. Even just a hawk to scout out ahead would be a nice addition and thematic ability.

Flickerdart

2013-03-14, 12:56 AM

For scouting birds, the Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) gets a really cool one that can do special tricks, and the vestige Malphas (Tome of Magic) grants you a raven that you can use to see and hear.

ImaginaryDragon

2013-03-14, 12:57 AM

Primal Scream is sort of Shimmy Rage Lite

What is Shimmy Rage Lite?

Also are your players off that not-so-sidequest island yet?:smalltongue: Or are they meeting this guy on it?

Kalaska'Agathas

2013-03-14, 01:32 AM

I appreciate the suggestions, but no XPH for me.

That's too bad, a PsyWar Tashalatora* with the feat-that-lets-you-flurry-with-a-spear would be excellent for this.

And am I the only one who, when they read the title and:

a tribal champion who wanders the wilderness, living by his stealth, his wits, and his spear. He's part of a small tribe which is extremely isolated--and just a tad xenophobic...

...felt the need to give this character glass knives and a mount with a side-car-carriage/cart type thing with a locate city bomb inside?

*Tashalatora allows certain Monk features (Flurry, Unarmed Strike, &c.) to stack with levels in a Psionic class.

Greenish

2013-03-14, 03:21 AM

The Wildrunner would be perfect. This guy would nail it...except for Endurance. Hum.

Horizon Walker gives nice bonuses to a couple of useful skills, but it's not quite as...aggressive as I'm looking for.

Fist of the Forest has plenty of that, and themewise it's a perfect fit--but none of the feats match up. Animal Lord is also nicely thematic, and even feasible...but "thematic" is all you really get.

Forest Reeve: perfect. Except for Endurance.

:smallannoyed:Are you opposed to Dragon Magazine? (I'd guess not since you've got Dragon Comp.) Anyway, Dragon #310 has a bunch of fighter variants. Exoticist and Targeteer get the most press, but you might like the look of Pugilist: it trades away martial weapon and shield proficiencies for getting IUS and Endurance as bonus feats at first level, in addition to fighter bonus feats that it draws from a modified list (that includes Great Fortitude, required for FotF entry).

Jigokuro

2013-03-14, 05:40 AM

If you pop in one level of monk you could use the martial monk variant to grab any one fighter bonus feat regardless of prereqs. Something like Piercing Weapon Mastery (+2 to hit and +2 damage to all piercing weapons) could help get a bit more power faster. Also, lots of saves and wis to AC (did you say he doesn't use much armor? I certainly felt like he doesn't at least. VoP removes most armor options anyway)

I used to think martial monk was broken, but now I don't and here is why: Have you seen the fight feat capstones? for the load of prereqs they really aren't that good. Each one is another little bonus that stacks with the previous ones, not a new level of power by itself. The 'Greater' versions of WFocus and WSpec are literally the exact same as the 'lesser' but stack.:smallsigh:
Even the fabled Weapon Supremacy isn't much on its own.:smallannoyed:

As for other stuff. Dragon Magazine 331 has a whole article on polearms with a bunch of good stuff. Highlights include:
The Shorten Grip feat, which lets you attack adjacent foes at -2 (and threaten the area, making it mostly better than Short Haft)
The Duom, a somehow not-exotic polearm that basically has Shorten Grip built in.
The Lucerne Hammer, the best vanilla martial reach weapon 99% of the time (If you don't need to threaten adjacent, in that case see above).
The Pole Fighting feat, which lets you flurry with a choosen polearm.
And a some more specific/flavorful feats like Vault, which does exactly what you'd think and, while potent at it, is helpful approximately never. Oh, and a bunch of exotic polearms, which like all exotic anythings that aren't "Spiked Chain", kinda suck.
Side note: it is the source of Haft Strike and Long Strike which were reprinted in Compendium.:smallamused:

Greenish

2013-03-14, 05:56 AM

As for other stuff. Dragon Magazine 331 has a whole article on polearms with a bunch of good stuff. Highlights include:
The Shorten Grip feat, which lets you attack adjacent foes at -2 (and threaten the area, making it mostly better than Short Haft)
The Duom, a somehow not-exotic polearm that basically has Shorten Grip built in.
The Lucerne Hammer, the best vanilla martial reach weapon 99% of the time (If you don't need to threaten adjacent, in that case see above).
The Pole Fighting feat, which lets you flurry with a choosen polearm.
And a some more specific/flavorful feats like Vault, which does exactly what you'd think and, while potent at it, is helpful approximately never. Oh, and a bunch of exotic polearms, which like all exotic anythings that aren't "Spiked Chain", kinda suck.
Side note: it is the source of Haft Strike and Long Strike which were reprinted in Compendium.:smallamused:All of those were reprinted in the Compendium.

Jigokuro

2013-03-14, 06:56 AM

All of those were reprinted in the Compendium.

All of it? even the recompiled things from other books? I did not know.

Oh, and there is Spear Mastery in, uh, some other dragmag, which lets you flat out use a spear or longspear as a double weapon in all ways, including enchanting each end separately (blunt end has base damage equal to sharp end) which is better than Haft Strike IF you use a spear or longspear, but those aren't the best of weapon choices.
If you do though, you could use your free frighter feat from martial monk on Two-Weapon Rend, which would be both highly effective and awesome to describe. However, rending with a double weapon = all of my wat. (though it is because it being hard to imagine is why it is impressive...):smallcool:

Greenish

2013-03-14, 07:06 AM

All of it? even the recompiled things from other books? I did not know.I meant, everything you mentioned. Shortern Grip, Pole Fighter, Vault, Duom, Lucerne Hammer, and more polearms than you'll ever need.

Fouredged Sword

2013-03-14, 07:28 AM

I am going to suggest combat trapsmith. Most hunters use traps if they are actually hunting for food. You have the prereqs, and this adds a little BFC to a melee combatant/skillmonkey to round him out as a one man party.

Palanan

2013-03-14, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword
I am going to suggest combat trapsmith.

A good suggestion, thanks...but not quite what I had in mind for this guy. Among other things, it requires spending 14 skill points, some of them in skills which the wilderness rogue won't have.

Originally Posted by Greenish
Are you opposed to Dragon Magazine? (I'd guess not since you've got Dragon Comp.) Anyway, Dragon #310 has a bunch of fighter variants.

Not at all opposed to Dragon, and in fact I've already gone through my battered hardcopy of #310, looking at those variants. I've always felt there were some great options in there which tend to be overlooked; I'll give Pugilist another look. (This always reminds me of "A British Tar" for some reason: "...his fist be ever ready for a knock-down blow.")

Originally Posted by Jigokuro
Oh, and there is Spear Mastery...which lets you flat out use a spear or longspear as a double weapon in all ways, including enchanting each end separately....

Well, Vow of Poverty is central here, so no enchanting of weapons except with class abilities, such as Exalted Strike from VoP or Nature's Defender from Forest Reeve. I'm probably pushing it a little by allowing him to use a spear, rather than Joe Plain Quarterstaff. Something strange like a duom would be right out.

--Speaking of which, let me ask a VoP question here. The vow is perfectly plain about not owning magic items, and not "borrowing" them, but it's somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps magic items used on your behalf, with examples involving potions given, wands pointed your way, etc.

With this in mind: could my VoP spearfighter receive, carry and activate magical tattoos which were inscribed on him by someone else, as per the Tattoo Magic feat? (Races of Faerûn, p. 170.)

I'm not sure which way to go with this, since the tattoo isn't an item and isn't owned, per se, but it's also a magical effect that only the bearer can activate. The spellcaster is essentially scribing the spell onto someone's body, and it's the spellcaster who pays the costs in XP and materials--and the bearer is specifically called out as the target of the spell, which seems like the equivalent of having a wand pointed at you.

Pretty sure this is iffy, but how much iffy does it iff?

:smallbiggrin:

Fouredged Sword

2013-03-14, 12:33 PM

As they are the psionic equivalent to potions I would treat them the same way.

ksbsnowowl

2013-03-14, 01:34 PM

If you like Forest Reeve, take a look at Nentyar Hunter from Unapproachable East. I forget the prereq's, but it gets some casting, and it synergizes VERY WELL with Forest Reeve.

Palanan

2013-03-14, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by ksbsnowowl
If you like Forest Reeve, take a look at Nentyar Hunter from Unapproachable East.

I've looked at Nentyar Hunter before, and never really managed to be enthusiastic about it. For a dedicated ranger who wants a fast-track to spellcasting it looks fine, but the class abilities themselves don't look that impressive. (Although a judicious mix of Nentyar Hunter and Forest Reeve, on top of basic ranger, apparently gets you a base land speed of 60...if I'm reading it all right.)

And, it's not quite what I'm looking for on my VoP spearfighter. Not really the fault of Nentyar Hunter, I just don't see this guy as a spellcaster.

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword
As they are the psionic equivalent to potions I would treat them the same way.

--Who what now?!

There may be another kind of tattoo out there, but the ones I'm thinking about are from the Tattoo Magic feat, which is something arcane and divine spellcasters do. It's essentially scribing a scroll onto another individual's body, which they can then activate with a touch.

The great thing about them is you can apply them to non-casters, who can then benefit from your spellcasting even if you're not around when they need you. Ideally I'd like to have the VoP spearfighter carrying a few tattoos from his clan druid, if it doesn't contradict the letter and spirit of the feat.

Fouredged Sword

2013-03-14, 02:36 PM

Sorry, thinking psionic tattoo, though I would say the spirit is the same.

nyarlathotep

2013-03-14, 02:47 PM

Supposing your spear has any importance to the character's background I would see if your GM wouldn't let you take ancestral relic, and have it not count for purposes of VoP.

HalfQuart

2013-03-14, 02:50 PM

It's essentially scribing a scroll onto another individual's body, which they can then activate with a touch.
I think that would be stretching it a bit too far. I agree that it is essentially like carrying around a potion. You can drink a potion, but not carry one.

The longspear is fine by RAW, though, since it is a simple weapon.

HalfQuart

2013-03-14, 02:51 PM

Supposing your spear has any importance to the character's background I would see if your GM wouldn't let you take ancestral relic, and have it not count for purposes of VoP.
He IS the GM. :-) This is for an NPC.

Palanan

2013-03-15, 09:19 AM

I've been working up skill points for this guy, and he'll probably end up with at least 12 ranks each in Balance and Climb, plus 8 each in Jump and Tumble if I work at it.

--So, skill tricks! He's at home in a forested wilderness, dense with ancient, massive trees. Tricks like Corner Perch or Walk the Walls should work just as well on heavy branches, tree trunks and buttressed roots, and I'd like this guy to be spinning and bounding through the trees as he fights.

I've never used any of the movement skill tricks before. Since you can only use them once per encounter, how would you string these together into a combat routine? Walk the Walls and Corner Perch to get up out of reach, and then use Long Strike to hit when they're not expecting it?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-15, 09:28 AM

I didn't see a race mentioned, but frostblood orcs (DrM) get Endurance as a bonus feat (and specifically gets a different bonus feat if you get Endurance from a second source, such as Ranger 3). Might help with that feat tax there...

Palanan

2013-03-15, 12:15 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-15, 12:17 PM

Vaz

2013-03-15, 12:41 PM

Somewhere up above I mentioned the homebrewed elven subrace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231651) I'm using, although I appreciate the reminder about frostblood orcs. I may bend things a little and give this guy a second flaw to fit Endurance into the build.

--So, here's another question, this time about animal companions and Natural Bond. With only two levels of ranger, would Natural Bond be any help? I'm thinking it wouldn't, since the feat specifically requires an animal companion rather than "ability to acquire an animal companion"...but thought I'd ask to see what people think.

If you don't have an Animal Companion, you don't have one. Note that a Wild Cohort is explicitly an animal companion; even one that's not actually an animal; such as a Vermin or Magical Beast.

Although that then enables you to take the feat "Natural Bond". However, as it explicitly adds to your Druid level, until you get Ranger 4, or Beastmaster 1, there's no real benefit. Ranger 4 with Natural Bond gives Druid 5, while Beastmaster 1 gives Druid 7; the problem being that taking all of that you might as well just take Druid.

Palanan

2013-03-15, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon
That or maybe take Wild Cohort instead of Natural Bod.

Heh. I could think of uses for that latter option.

:smalltongue:

Yeah, I figured Natural Bond would be a stretch, and I'm not completely committed on the animal-companion issue. It would be fun to work in if I could, so Wild Cohort seems like the better option, since it scales to character level instead of druid level. Might as well spend the feat on Wild Cohort and skip Natural Bond altogether.