Armor Stats?? (please help)

[Destiny reached]

Hello!
My friends and I were playing one of our first 3.0 adventures, and my OP pal was DMing. The problem was, he was DMing his own character, as well. The final boss had some incredibly unbalanced drops, and when I saw the stats on them, I told my friend to revise them. He did (partially; they're still unbalanced), but there were a few things I couldn't convince him to change. I'm not sure if they're anti-rules, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me a solid answer as to how far from the originals the stats can actually go. Here's one if the OP items:

Urgumak's Breastplate:

Weight: 20 lbs
AC bonus: 5
Max DEX bonus: 8
Check Penalty: -1
Spell Failure: 10%
STR +2 (magic? I'm honestly not sure)
DEX +2 (this, too...)
Value: 2000 gp

Breastplate in the PHB:

Weight: 30 lbs
Armor bonus: 5
Max dex bonus: 3
Check penalty: -4
Spell failure: 25%
Value: 200 gp

And, mind you, his character was level 2 when he picked the items up. My friend is a stubborn power player. Compare the stats, and please help. :smallsmile:

[Engorde]

Let´s see, he probably made it out of Mithral but it should have a max dex bonus of 5, the Breastplate is a medium armor so it would increase the cost by +4,000 gp; according to the Magic Item Compendium, you can add the most common magic effects (like enhancement bonuses to Ability scores) to existing magic items but the +2 Dex and +2 Str should cost another +4,000 gp each, so the total cost of the item should be 12,200 gp, should have a max dex bonus of 5, and weigh 15lbs.

[Ernir]

The above armor is not possible by the rules, not at that price.

You could do a fair approximation by making a Twilight Nimble Mithral Breastplate (Twilight from Book of Exalted Deeds, Nimble from Magic Item Compendium) or something on its own, but it's still not matching those numbers exactly, and just that would cost 13350 GP.

The ability score enhancements would cost 4k each were they in the appropriate body slot. Off-slot they would cost 6k each.

So, you could get an item that looks something like that for a price tag of 15-25k GP or so, which you should not be able to get at level 2 according to the Wealth by Level guidelines.



Your friend isn't powerplaying (in the GitP sense of the word), he's just making random stuff up. :smallwink:

[Engorde]

Friends don´t let friends use DMPCs.

[Destiny reached]

So far, this helps a ton. But how do I explain that you can't just make stuff up? An argument could be made that the beauty of a fantasy game is that anything can happen.

[Ernir]

So far, this helps a ton. But how do I explain that you can't just make stuff up? An argument could be made that the beauty of a fantasy game is that anything can happen.

The beauty of a fantasy is that within a fantasy, anything can happen. The beauty of a fantasy game is that within the game, we can find out how anything happens (oh, and live it).


In D&D 3.5, it so happens that the "how" of "create powerful items" is "spend lots of gold on it". Further, the "how" of "get more gold" in 3.5 is "get more levels".
In other words, the rules framework makes clear that there is a relationship between the power of a magic item and its GP value, and that there is a relationship between a character's level and the amount of gold the character should have.

You can ignore the rules in the name of fun (and sometimes, you should). But you didn't buy the rule book to ignore it, you bought it to provide guidelines and ideas on how to play a game of fantasy Let's Pretend. And one of the guidelines it provides is about how to handle your imaginary magic items.

[Urpriest]

The random +2 Str and +2 Dex makes me think that this guy thinks he's playing Diablo or WoW or the like. It's an RPG stereotype that armor can have bonuses like that on it, which is one reason why it keep cropping up in computer RPGs, but it's obvious to anyone who actually reads the rulebooks for D&D that that's not how D&D items are designed. I think it's quite likely that your friend never actually read the rules, and is simply "playing D&D" by trying to keep a superficial similarity to D&D stereotypes, much like a cargo cult might build a plane out of bamboo. For some reason, D&D (and to a lesser extent every RPG) is uniquely subject to this sort of thing. You don't see people just making up superficially plausible rules for board games, or insisting that a computer game have the same controls as another one and living in denial when it doesn't.

[Shining Wrath]

I think your friend added +5 to the max dex rather than increasing the max dex to 5 for a Mithral breastplate.

The +2 to ability scores are certainly possible but the item has to be enchanted to +1 first, so it should also give a +6 to AC vice +5.

And then it ought to cost 4000 GP for Mithral, 1000 GP for +1, 4000 GP each for the stat bonuses, total 13000 GP + base cost for a breastplate.

WBL he can't have it at all until 6th level or thereabout.

[Shining Wrath]

The random +2 Str and +2 Dex makes me think that this guy thinks he's playing Diablo or WoW or the like. It's an RPG stereotype that armor can have bonuses like that on it, which is one reason why it keep cropping up in computer RPGs, but it's obvious to anyone who actually reads the rulebooks for D&D that that's not how D&D items are designed. I think it's quite likely that your friend never actually read the rules, and is simply "playing D&D" by trying to keep a superficial similarity to D&D stereotypes, much like a cargo cult might build a plane out of bamboo. For some reason, D&D (and to a lesser extent every RPG) is uniquely subject to this sort of thing. You don't see people just making up superficially plausible rules for board games, or insisting that a computer game have the same controls as another one and living in denial when it doesn't.

If you read the Magic Item Compendium, they explicitly state that you should be able to add what might be called "standard" magic abilities to existing magic items at normal cost. The table lists all 6 ability scores, resistance boosts, and AC boosts (natural, deflection) as "standard" stuff. So, if MIC is allowed in a campaign, then a Ring of Free Movement that also gives +5 deflection bonus is allowed, at ~100,000 GP for the Free Movement plus ~50,000 GP for the deflection. Pricey but excellent.

[Killer Angel]

That's so wrong that it hurts.
I concede the benefits of doubt, and I'll say that your friend doesn't know what he's doing.

[Shining Wrath]

You can ignore the rules in the name of fun (and sometimes, you should). But you didn't buy the rule book to ignore it, you bought it to provide guidelines and ideas on how to play a game of fantasy Let's Pretend. And one of the guidelines it provides is about how to handle your imaginary magic items.

Yes. And if this character can have an ~13kGP breastplate at level 2, then all the other characters can have Dinguses of Great Power as well. And the orcs they were going to fight as ECL2 characters just morphed into ogre magi.

[The Dark Fiddler]

So far, this helps a ton. But how do I explain that you can't just make stuff up? An argument could be made that the beauty of a fantasy game is that anything can happen.

That's the thing, you can't make that argument.

You COULD make the somewhat similar but significantly different argument that anything made up like that should be comparable to stuff that already exists in the game, though.

[Urpriest]

If you read the Magic Item Compendium, they explicitly state that you should be able to add what might be called "standard" magic abilities to existing magic items at normal cost. The table lists all 6 ability scores, resistance boosts, and AC boosts (natural, deflection) as "standard" stuff. So, if MIC is allowed in a campaign, then a Ring of Free Movement that also gives +5 deflection bonus is allowed, at ~100,000 GP for the Free Movement plus ~50,000 GP for the deflection. Pricey but excellent.

That's an entirely different thing though. Those are items that typically have those sorts of bonuses, merged into the same slot. D&D doesn't do armor with stat bonuses, that's what the various clothing items are for, just like D&D doesn't do mundane clothing with armor bonuses. It's the sort of impression you get from CRPGs.

[Dragodar]

first of all, i would like to tell everybody that i am the subject of the original post.
however, i never DMPCed. it was actually the original poster himself (destiny_reached) who controlled my character, so im not sure why he said that i did... but that is beside the point.
also, this was our (collectively, our whole group) first time EVER play D&D, and since then, i have changed the stats drastically.
the original poster displayed the original stats that i had created when DMing my first dungeon ever, when i had very little knowledge of the game.

The random +2 Str and +2 Dex makes me think that this guy thinks he's playing Diablo or WoW or the like.
^this pretty much sums it up. at the time, i knew hardly anything about D&D, so i pretty much went off what i knew about WoW.
so yes...

That's so wrong that it hurts.
I concede the benefits of doubt, and I'll say that your friend doesn't know what he's doing.
i had no idea what i was doing.
since the original creation of the items, the stats are very different and toned down.

[Urpriest]

first of all, i would like to tell everybody that i am the subject of the original post.
however, i never DMPCed. it was actually the original poster himself who controlled my character, but that is beside the point.
also, this was our (collectively, our whole group) first time EVER play D&D, and since then, i have changed the stats drastically.
the original poster displayed the original stats that i had created when DMing my first dungeon ever, when i had very little knowledge of the game.

this pretty much sums it up. at the time, i knew hardly anything about D&D.
so yes...

i had no idea what i was doing.
since the original creation of the items, the stats are very different and toned down.

Just curious, but if you were so inexperienced, why were you DMing? In my experience, most people get exposed to D&D by joining games run by more experienced players. What motivated you guys to try out the game without a prior example like that?

I'm not asking to be rude, but rather because I hear about this sort of thing happening pretty frequently on this forum, and it just seems odd that people pick up D&D (and an out of print edition of it at that!) without having someone who knows the system to teach you how to play. I can't imagine that sort of thing happening with baseball, for example.

[ericgrau]

It looks very similar to celestial armor.

Using celestial armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) as a starting point, this seems fair:
Weight: 20 lbs
AC bonus: 5+1=6 (magic armor must be at least +1)
Max DEX bonus: 8
Check Penalty: -2
Spell Failure: 15%
STR +2
DEX +2
Value: 350 (masterwork breastplate) + 1000 (+1) + 7700 (max dex, check penalty, etc.) + 4000 gp (str) + 4000 gp (dex) = 17,050 gp

You might instead charge 6000 gp, or +50%, for the strength for being unrelated, but that's debatable and I wouldn't worry about it.

I found the 7700 number by removing the cost of the +3 and the fly 1/day abilities from celestial armor. What's left is the value of the armor's special stats.

As for the effects of giving such an expensive item to a level 2 player, the benefits are about the same as being half a level higher. If he has over an 18 dex then it might be as much as being a full level higher. By which I mean from the armor alone he will be significantly more powerful but will not overshadow the other players. With 3-5 items like that he may overshadow the other players. Or if all the other players get similar items it might be fair, but monsters might need to be 1 CR higher to keep up.

[Destiny reached]

Just curious, but if you were so inexperienced, why were you DMing? In my experience, most people get exposed to D&D by joining games run by more experienced players. What motivated you guys to try out the game without a prior example like that?

We were all inexperienced and agreed that we'd go through the process together.

I apologize for the miscommunication; at the time I posted this, I had been misinformed about the stats of the objects, and thought that what I wrote was the most current information. The items were revised and seem much more well-rounded. However, the question regarding unbalance surfaces once again...
Here are the stats for the new breastplate:

Weight: 20 lbs
AC bonus: 5
Max DEX bonus: 5
Check Penalty: -1
Spell Failure: 15%
CON +1
Value: 9000 gp

...and for a sword:

(Exotic)
Weight: 10 lbs
Damage: 3d4
Critical: (18-20/x2)

...and for a bow:

(Exotic)
Weight: 10 lbs
Damage: 1d12
Critical: (19-20/x3)

How's that in regards to rules? What would the price of each of these be? Also, are the attributes overpowered for a level 3?

[ericgrau]

The sword and bow aren't worth more than 50 gp each assuming they require a feat to use like other exotic weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions).

The breastplate is close to mithril breastplate which is woth 5,350 gp. Plus another 1,000 gp for... +1 con :smallsigh: for a total of 6,350 gp. Maybe a hair more because it has -1 ACP instead of -2 ACP. Less than 500 gp more, I know that, so perhaps round up to 6,500 gp. If he has a 20 dex this will give him a small advantage but it's no big deal. If he has 16 dex or lower it will make almost no difference. The real advantage will come in about 10 levels in the future when AC will cost more to get, but it's not that the armor actually becomes a better deal it's that everything else becomes a worse deal. So unlike some other 6,500 gp items it doesn't hurt balance much to get it at low level.

But I have to ask why not just put standard items in the treasure?? Or items similar to standard items. Or created using the magic item creation guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). It seems like you'd have a lot less headaches and guessing games that way.

[NikitaDarkstar]

The exotic weapons seems fairly balanced considering they're exotic and exotic weapon proficiencies are generally costly in other areas (as in feats).

The armor still seems like to much, both value wise for a lvl 2 character and armors and weapons don't come with stat bonuses. You have specific armor and weapon enchantments that go on armors and weapons, I'd suggest sticking to those. (Similarly, for future reference I'm fairly certain 3.0 don't allow you to have two different stat bonuses on the same item. I know Pathfinder does however, but it costs extra.)

And if you all are new to the game, I'd really suggest you stick to things that have already been printed. If you don't feel like running pre-printed adventures that's fine, not everyone does, but really, try to not make up your own equipment and such until you get more comfortable with the system, it will save you a lot of headache and troubles further down the road. (Keep in mind that 3.0 quickly turned into 3.5 because it was a difficult cumbersome system. And keep in mind that 3.5 is regarded as a massive beast of a cumbersome and frustrating system to master)

Other than that, welcome to the hobby and while I don't frequent this sub-board that often I know for a fact that the regulars here can answer more or less every question you might have rather fast. :)

[CaladanMoonblad]

After reading everything thus far...

... this group has just experienced "homebrew."

For new gamers (with no veteran to guide this group), I'd suggest stock adventures as a template to creating acceptable quest rewards/loot.

1st and 2nd level adventures rarely have actual magical rewards if going by the standard treasure by CR.

If Dragodar or Destiny Reached want to see likely CR Rewards, I would suggest Donjon's Random Treasure generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/treasure/) (have patience, it takes a while to load because the server is in the Atlantic Ocean on a little British protectorate off the coast of Africa). Plug in a few hoards, combine all, and you'll get a range for the encounter. There are other tools from Donjon (look on the left), including a random name generator, a random inn generator (under Fantasy subheading), and other fun tools to play around.

Under the Random Encounter Generator for d20, you'll even get statblocks similar to Star Wars d20 for random stuff (it's all SRD).


Oh... and GMs really shouldn't play their own characters when GMing. Conflict of interest and all that.

[Urpriest]

For the record: there is a reason there are no items that grant +1 Con. Items that grant only +1 to an ability score benefit characters with an odd ability score as if they were +2, and even scores as if they were +0, so there's no fair price for them.

In general, you shouldn't modify the rules of a game until you're familiar with playing it, unless those rules are really making the game obviously less fun. Otherwise, chances are the rules are there for a reason.

[Shining Wrath]

That's an entirely different thing though. Those are items that typically have those sorts of bonuses, merged into the same slot. D&D doesn't do armor with stat bonuses, that's what the various clothing items are for, just like D&D doesn't do mundane clothing with armor bonuses. It's the sort of impression you get from CRPGs.

Each ability score has a list of corresponding slots, so it would cost 50% more to put the STR and DEX boosts on the armor. That ups the price to a rather ridiculous 17kgp for 2nd level.

[Douglas]

Here are the stats for the new breastplate:

Weight: 20 lbs
AC bonus: 5
Max DEX bonus: 5
Check Penalty: -1
Spell Failure: 15%
CON +1
Value: 9000 gp
Except for the +1 con, that is very similar to a mithral breastplate, which costs 4200 gp. In fact, the only difference is the weight - mithral breastplate would be 15 lbs.

The +1 con would, by the formula, be worth 1000 gp. Add a 50% markup for being on an unusual slot, and that's 1500. Add to the base price, and this armor should cost 5700 gp.

However, as Urpriest noted, magic items should never grant odd bonuses to ability scores. Either get rid of it (price drops to 4200) or bump it up to +2 (price increases to 10200).


...and for a sword:

(Exotic)
Weight: 10 lbs
Damage: 3d4
Critical: (18-20/x2)
Assuming this is a two-handed weapon, this is ok. There's an already printed exotic sword that's pretty much this but with 2d6 damage, and 3d4 is very nearly equivalent to that.


...and for a bow:

(Exotic)
Weight: 10 lbs
Damage: 1d12
Critical: (19-20/x3)
Before adjusting for magic properties and feats, a weapon should never have both an expanded crit range and an increased crit multiplier. Combine that with the high damage die, and this is vastly superior to every bow ever printed by WotC.


How's that in regards to rules? What would the price of each of these be? Also, are the attributes overpowered for a level 3?
The armor I already priced. The sword is fine as an exotic weapon, and should cost no more than a few hundred gp. The bow needs its stats decreased, it's beyond what should be available at any price before adding magic properties.

On page 135 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, there is a table showing the approximate total value of equipment that a character should have at each level 2 through 20. The entry for level 3 is 2700 gp. The armor is way beyond that, even without the constitution bonus. The sword would take at most 1/6 to 1/4 of that allowance, assuming it is nonmagical. Adding a +1 enhancement bonus to it would cost an extra 2000, bumping it up to pretty much the entire amount.

In general, I would strongly recommend using only the stats of things that are actually in the books as published by Wizards of the Coast. Making up new stats for things is something for advanced players and DMs who are highly familiar with the system already.

[ericgrau]

The bow averages +20% damage from crits. The best core crit weapons average +15% damage from crits. The die adds +2 damage. It's nice but not that incredible. More like a hair over the limit. Assuming there's a composite version.

[Greenish]

Before adjusting for magic properties and feats, a weapon should never have both an expanded crit range and an increased crit multiplier.Why not? Granted, it's rare in published material (only orc shotput, greathorn minotaur warhammer, and talenta sharrash come to mind, and even then the latter got errata'ed), but then, exotic weapons worth the feat are rare in published material.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Why not? Granted, it's rare in published material (only orc shotput, greathorn minotaur warhammer, and talenta sharrash come to mind, and even then the latter got errata'ed), but then, exotic weapons worth the feat are rare in published material.

I'd have to agree with this. Considering it costs a feat to be able to use it it's not something I'd shoot down in flames. It's a little bit powerful yes, but considering the average power level of people who primarily uses bows compared to pretty much everyone else (in part because of the poor support for it) it's not something that will make a huge difference in the long run.

[Dragodar]

For the record: there is a reason there are no items that grant +1 Con. Items that grant only +1 to an ability score benefit characters with an odd ability score as if they were +2, and even scores as if they were +0, so there's no fair price for them.

i see what youre saying but i dont think that should mean that there can be no items that grant +1 to an ability. there are advantages granted by the actual score, rather than the modifier; such as carry capacity being influenced by STR. plus, the character's ability score can change, so at any given point in his career the armor may offer +1 or +0 to the modifier.

[Shining Wrath]

i see what youre saying but i dont think that should mean that there can be no items that grant +1 to an ability. there are advantages granted by the actual score, rather than the modifier; such as carry capacity being influenced by STR. plus, the character's ability score can change, so at any given point in his career the armor may offer +1 or +0 to the modifier.

My DM rules it this way, but I do note the existence of Manuals of X which give +1 to an ability score.

[Urpriest]

i see what youre saying but i dont think that should mean that there can be no items that grant +1 to an ability. there are advantages granted by the actual score, rather than the modifier; such as carry capacity being influenced by STR. plus, the character's ability score can change, so at any given point in his career the armor may offer +1 or +0 to the modifier.

You're supporting what I'm saying, though. The item will sometimes give +1 to the modifier, sometimes +0. Even if it has other, constant, benefits the biggest benefit varies. Thus you can't find a balanced price for it.

But again, you guys are new to the game. There's nothing to motivate you to make up new items in the first place, and no reason for you to think you know how to do so well enough yet. Was there a particular reason that you felt the need to make up new items rather than using the ones that already exist?

[TuggyNE]

My DM rules it this way, but I do note the existence of Manuals of X which give +1 to an ability score.

Those, like level-up bonuses, are designed for very-long-term investment in ability scores, where it's assumed you can arrange for them to come out evenly.

Also, arguably, the manuals/tomes are kinda messed up as-is; there's no way to upgrade or resell them, so anything less than a +5 is wasting money.