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Grinner
2013-03-13, 10:19 PM
I've had this idea for a more or less GM-less system percolating in my head for a couple of days now, and it all came together when I read this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14887631&postcount=21).

The whole idea is centered around the usage of a web of random event charts in concert with skill checks. Each check can have one of three results: Success, Success with Complications, and Failure with Complications, and any result involving complications should be compared to the appropriate random event chart. The player to the immediate left of the roller then narrates what happens next, as per the chart.

I actually have a specific scenario I'm envisioning with these rules:


For whatever reason, the player characters, Alice, Bob, and Charlie, are heading off into the desert. Bob makes a Drive check but Fails with Complications*. Comparing his result to a Long Distance Driving Complications chart, Alice says the player characters make it halfway across the desert before the car quits on them; they're out of gas. Fortunately, they've arrived near a remote town, as per the chart. However, arriving in the town, they roll on a New Town chart and learn that the town is deathly quiet.

What horrors await them in this place, you ask? Roll to find out!

Being narrative in nature, the system could ideally handle any setting or genre by adding, replacing, and/or removing skills along with the appropriate charts, though I suspect that it would tend towards lunatic adventures, depending upon the charts in use. I'm also thinking that a bell curved core mechanic should be used, weighting the results towards Success with Complications. It's all still in the formative stage though...

Thoughts?

*Initially, I had written Success with Complications. Then I realized that this would mean that they arrived at their destination, but the car then died on them, potentially stranding them. Perhaps a result of simple Failure should be added? Or perhaps they should always be successful to a degree**?

**No, success is getting what you want. Complications are everything else that could happen.

OutsiderOpinion
2013-03-14, 12:19 AM
Hmm, honestly, I'm not sure that I like it. While it is certainly a cool idea to eliminate the GM, and would be great for small groups, there are a few inherent problems.
First, if a player is allowed to narrate part of the story, then they have an incentive to narrate it a certain way, to benefit their own characters. One way to eliminate this, as you have done, is to have everything be determined by random chance. The problem with putting everything in the hands of a chart is that charts don't understand narrative form. It takes a human to tell a story, while random dice rolls will generate what feels more like a random coagulation of events. This might be fine as a system to play during study hall with some friends, and as just a light-spirited, pass the time kind of game, could actually be great fun. But if you want this to be an RPG to stand among RPGs, you need some way of telling a story, rather than just generating the next event.
Possibly, this could be partially solved by having more players participate in the process. Perhaps all players other than the one who made the check could determine a part of the outcome, though this strikes me as a bit slow. Anyway, with a bit more thought put into it this could be an incredibly fun diversion, but for car-rides and boring afternoons, not long-term campaigns.

Grinner
2013-03-14, 01:06 AM
The problem with putting everything in the hands of a chart is that charts don't understand narrative form. It takes a human to tell a story, while random dice rolls will generate what feels more like a random coagulation of events. This might be fine as a system to play during study hall with some friends, and as just a light-spirited, pass the time kind of game, could actually be great fun. But if you want this to be an RPG to stand among RPGs, you need some way of telling a story, rather than just generating the next event.
Possibly, this could be partially solved by having more players participate in the process. Perhaps all players other than the one who made the check could determine a part of the outcome, though this strikes me as a bit slow. Anyway, with a bit more thought put into it this could be an incredibly fun diversion, but for car-rides and boring afternoons, not long-term campaigns.

Agreed 100%. It seems to me that most people prefer slightly meatier games for serious campaigns, and this is more of a thought experiment than anything else.

Really, what worries me the most is not introducing problems for the players to solve, but ensuring that the players are able to solve them in a reasonably coherent manner. If the town in the OP's example is populated with cannibal hillbillies, I wouldn't want aliens to come along and abduct everyone...Or maybe I would...

Perhaps it could work if design limitations were imposed on certain skills and their charts. Driving, depending on the circumstances, could be used for getting places (i.e. stranding the players somewhere) or something like offensive driving. Burglary, on the other hand, could only be used for breaking into safes, or screwing up and attracting a guard's attention.

In other words, certain skills could be used to introduce conflict, and others would be used to resolve it.

Actually, I don't know about that one, because I'm relying on common sense to determine the applicability of skills. What if someone tries to knock the BBEG off a cliff with his car? That would resolve the situation quite well.

Edit: How about this? Instead having a single chart, each skill would have a chart for each skill usage. In the driving example, the Long Distance Driving Chart would be used while trying to drive long distances and is good for introducing problems. An Offensive Driving Chart would be used for things like car chases and is good for resolving problems.

OutsiderOpinion
2013-03-14, 01:41 PM
The idea continues to take form. Multiple charts for different applications of the same skill would certainly clear up a few issues. It could potentially result in slowing the game down by requiring the player to flip through a thick book of charts, but this could be solved by simply controlling the number of individual skills. With a little index-card of a character sheet and a booklet full of skill charts, I can see this as a fun, easy, and remarkably portable game. In order to keep the number of skills (and thus, the number of charts) manageable, the skill list might need to be adjusted for setting.
Quick thought: Maybe the skill charts could allow another player to determine the result of a check, but place specific limitations on them, so that a bad check will always yield a bad result within reason, and a good check will always bring about something positive (again, within reason, based on HOW good the check was compared to the tasks difficulty).
Maybe you could even have some skills that helped advance the story, for example, a Gather Information skill which allowed other players to make up a new piece of the plot, maybe an exceptional check would even allow the player making the check to make up a piece of it (with caveats to ensure the game isn't broken by this). It would be a bit of a pain to balance. The good thing is that in general, I've found that the less meaty a system is, the less temptation for players to break it.

Grinner
2013-03-14, 06:14 PM
The idea continues to take form. Multiple charts for different applications of the same skill would certainly clear up a few issues. It could potentially result in slowing the game down by requiring the player to flip through a thick book of charts, but this could be solved by simply controlling the number of individual skills. With a little index-card of a character sheet and a booklet full of skill charts, I can see this as a fun, easy, and remarkably portable game. In order to keep the number of skills (and thus, the number of charts) manageable, the skill list might need to be adjusted for setting.

Emphasis mine.

This, unfortunately, is a necessary evil. I'm hoping that doing some kind of clever layout with the final product would ease the burden significantly. Placing together charts that complement one another would be a good place to start.

i.e. Long Distance Driving and Object in Middle of the Road should be on the same page. The skill charts should not be placed into a skills section, and the obstacles charts should not be placed in an obstacles section.


Quick thought: Maybe the skill charts could allow another player to determine the result of a check, but place specific limitations on them, so that a bad check will always yield a bad result within reason, and a good check will always bring about something positive (again, within reason, based on HOW good the check was compared to the tasks difficulty).

I do like the idea of giving the players more narrative control than just the decisions they make. I can see two problems with that, however.

First, and speaking from personal experience, it can be really hard to come up with sensible and interesting events on the spot. Some can people can do it; others can't; and still others need to be in the right frame of mind.

Second, I have not a clue how such limitations can be imposed while remaining elegant and effective. Making specific statements like "You may not kill the butler." seem ineffective, but sufficiently universal and fair limitations elude me.

Really, the purpose of having other players narrate the results is that the more thespian players could introduce the information in a suitably dramatic manner. Instead of "You hit a coyote.", in the hands of a theatrical player, it becomes "You're driving along the highway, enjoying the sun on your face. A grey blur darts in front of the car, and a sickening crunch follows. Pulling over, you see that it's a coyote."


Maybe you could even have some skills that helped advance the story, for example, a Gather Information skill which allowed other players to make up a new piece of the plot, maybe an exceptional check would even allow the player making the check to make up a piece of it (with caveats to ensure the game isn't broken by this). It would be a bit of a pain to balance. The good thing is that in general, I've found that the less meaty a system is, the less temptation for players to break it.

Thinking about it, these charts would represent a delicately balanced ecosystem of statements and responses. Introducing external elements like that could break the whole game. Still, I agree that skill charts need to be developed and categorized based on what they contribute to the plot, and the players need some degree of narrative control.

Knaight
2013-03-17, 09:35 PM
Hmm, honestly, I'm not sure that I like it. While it is certainly a cool idea to eliminate the GM, and would be great for small groups, there are a few inherent problems.

Eliminating the GM has been done, in a few systems. As such, a few of them should probably be investigated. The obvious contenders:
Mythic: It's a GM simulator, it works off probabilities, and it works for most everything. I'm not a huge fan, mostly because I don't think it takes eliminating the GM to its logical conclusion, but it works.

Fiasco: This is more a scene structuring and character creation tool, which reproduces a Coen Brothers style movie narrative. It's beautiful, it truly takes advantage of not having a GM, and looking at its structure is basically mandatory. I also quite like it.

Microscope: This, right here, is pretty much my favorite game. It removes the GM. It operates on completely non-chronological storytelling. It removes the entire concept of "player characters", though characters are still played. Moreover, it is versatile, it is fun, and when you are done with it you have a brand new game setting that is probably pretty good. Investigate this.