Reducing Spellcasting Power

[Curmudgeon]

I've been toying with the idea of a campaign where spellcasting would be whacked hard with the nerf bat. (While this is mostly done to change the relative power levels of the classes, the idea is rooted in the premise that magic takes years of study/devotion before you get anywhere at all.) I'm going to apply the usual reins (no metamagic cost reducers at all; no Alter Self without personally encountering the form you're trying to assume, & c.) but I'm going to go one big step further:

All spells are 3 levels higher than listed.
That means before level 5, when finally able to cast Prestidigitation, a Wizard would be referred to as "that wimpy nerd in the back, using a crossbow with Knowledge Devotion". All those spell slots at levels 0, 1, and 2 disappear from all class tables (just to keep Versatile Spellcaster at the same relative power).

As for spell-like abilities: they don't work, period. Magic just won't be that easy to come by.

So tell me, would you play in such a game? And would you consider playing a spellcaster?

[NichG]

Such a thing wouldn't put me off the campaign - I mean, I can always play a non-caster.

I probably wouldn't play a caster if we started at Lv1. Hm... minimum level I'd consider it would probably be Lv9. I have to admit, this kind of thing would also encourage me to go all out in trying to get around its limits (since I'd feel that given the situation, going all out with a caster wouldn't necessarily wreck the table balance). Reserve Feats are wonderful in this system, as all your 'scales with highest spell level' stuff will cap out higher. Precocious Apprentice (I think thats the one - the feat that lets you burn two lower level slots for a higher level one) becomes even nicer too.

Quasi-casters become nice too. High LA races that get spell-likes are a better choice now than putting those levels into dead casting levels. Half-Elemental, Half-Celestial, etc for the various SLAs is nice, and ends up with being able to use Lv12 spells (which is just kind of amusing, since the mechanics of the spells won't change much). Something like Dryad, where you get actual casting as part of the race, is also nicer here.

[8wGremlin]

What about no casters at all.

Just use incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

See what that looks like?

[Curmudgeon]

Precocious Apprentice (I think thats the one - the feat that lets you burn two lower level slots for a higher level one) becomes even nicer too.
No, you're thinking of Versatile Spellcaster. I'll Edit the original post to address this.

Quasi-casters become nice too. High LA races that get spell-likes are a better choice now ...
Maybe you missed the part where I said: "spell-like abilities: they don't work, period."

[Khatoblepas]

While this does sound interesting, I'm not sure it would PLAY very interestingly if you have the wizard be effectively a commoner with a good will save for the first five levels. The overall idea, that is, to reduce what a wizard can do by three spell levels, is okay, but it seems a bit heavy handed, and not very elegant or fun in it's execution.

Merely truncating the wizard will put off anyone from wanting to play a wizard from level 1, which is not what you want - no matter how much you're nerfing magic, a class needs to be useful on an adventure, lest you get players playing fighters for the first five levels, jumping into spikes, and conveniently having a wizard character on hand, just so that they didn't have to play the five levels of absolute nothing they would have otherwise had to wade through to play a character they originally wanted to play.

If you made a more gentle curve, and lopped off the top (like say, the Adept's spell progression), it would make playing a wizard much more fun, and still overall less powerful than a wizard.

That, or give them some abilities that would make a player want to play one. You know, thematically appropriate ones.

[TaiLiu]

Hm. How does this work with spellcasters who don't need study: sorcerers and the ilk?

[Gnorman]

Forcing a class to have basically zero class features for 25% of the game? Can't agree with it. Would not play it. Won't support it. Not when there are better ways of reining in spellcasters.

[JoshuaZ]

This might not work so badly at the mid levels, but at 20th level, casters are still breaking the game badly. Teleport for example is only a level 5 spell. This does too much at the low levels and not enough at the upper levels. Meanwhile, things you want people to be able to do (say raising dead party members) just got much harder.

If you want a quick and dirty fix just rule out all of T1 and T2.

[Madcrafter]

I like magic, and I think that such a campaign would not be very fun until the high levels, when everything starts to break down anyways.

I think there are better ways you could limit them without forcing spellcasters to be experts for most of the game. Which one is really dependant on what you and your group might like. If you don't mind some work, taking a few hacks at the spells you don't want could work, or if you really want magic to be hard requiring extra things for spells or something. Or maybe just a gentlemen's agreement on reigning in the stuff that doesn't fit.

Not that it was asked for, but magic (at least arcane) in my current campaign was nerfed a bit, because the DM wanted his world a certain way. In short:
-Arcane Spells take an addition move action to concentrate to cast, otherwise bad bad stuff might happen (think accidental demon summonings and wild magic)
-Divination spells of all types take will saves (DC proportional to level) to cast. We're not exactly sure what happens but my archivist has failed 3 so far casting Identify and has begun suffering nightmares if he fails a Cha check (preventing spell prep and natural healing), which is really scary.
-Metamagic costs double.

[Darius Kane]

Delaying the acquisition of higher level spells is a good idea, but how you are doing it isn't. Casters need their lower level spells to function, so instead make it so that the higher level spells are acquired later. For example: Wizard gets 2nd level spells at 3th level, 3rd level spells at 6th, 4th lvl spells at 9th, 5th lvl at 13th, 6th lvl 17th and 7th lvl at 20th.

[ArcturusV]

Well... I don't think you necessarily have to go that far with it.

I'd consider a good first step (Try it out, see how it goes)... Old School Wizarding. NO BONUS SPELLS. Not for specialist. Not for High Int. Not for any feats that grant bonus spells like Precocious Apprentice, etc. Knock out the Level 0 spell slots. Cantrips are now level 1 spells. Level 1 spells are level 2 spell, etc, etc, etc.

That alone I think would be a fundamental enough change to get what you are looking for.

[kabreras]

And have all your casters be bored 90% of the time and so playing on their Ipad/pod.

D&D without magic is not D&D

[NichG]

No, you're thinking of Versatile Spellcaster. I'll Edit the original post to address this.

Maybe you missed the part where I said: "spell-like abilities: they don't work, period."

Yeah, I missed that. New plan if I wanted to get around the restriction: scroll/wand user.

[Pickford]

What about no casters at all.

Just use incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

See what that looks like?

Wow...now I actually 'want' to get unearthed arcana.

edit: Curmudgeon, So if level 0 slots don't exist, all 1st and 0th level spells share 1st level+?

[Curmudgeon]

OK, here's a somewhat different scheme along the same lines:
All spells are 1 level higher than listed.
Level 0 spell slots don't exist.
If you would normally get a higher level of spell every 2 levels, you repeat the spells for the second of those two levels, and get a higher level of spells every 3 levels instead. Here's how that would look for the first few levels of Wizard:
Old Spells per Day || New Spells per Day
{table="head"]Level | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd
1st | 3 | 1 | — | — | | — | 1 | — | —
2nd | 4 | 2 | — | — | | — | 2 | — | —
3rd | 4 | 2 | 1 | — | | — | 2 | — | —
4th | 4 | 3 | 2 | — | | — | 2 | 1 | —
5th | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | | — | 3 | 2 | —
6th | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | | — | 3 | 2 | — [/table]
Bonus spells are based on a different stat than the one used for spellcasting:

INT-based spellcasters get bonus spells for high CHA.
CHA-based spellcasters get bonus spells for high WIS.
WIS-based spellcasters get bonus spells for high INT.

Comments?

[Gnorman]

If you're intent on reducing SAD, why not do the following for all the spellcasting classes:

Spellcasting requires an Intelligence score of 10 + spell level

Bonus spells are governed by Wisdom

DCs are governed by Charisma

Also, under your proposed system:

INT getting bonus spells from Wisdom makes sense - Intelligence casters tend to be thoughtful and academic, which Wisdom seems more suited to.

WIS should get bonus spells from Charisma, especially if you go with the old school definition of "divine favor." Plus, priests need parishioners.

CHA casters could go either way. Probably Intelligence, to round out the cycle.

Really, though, I think the main problem with spellcasters is not their power but their versatility. You can have full casters that don't break the game: see the Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer, for example. Spontaneous fixed-list casters are, in my opinion, the best spellcasting fix.

[Komatik]

TBH? I'd just ask to play a Binder (and probably ask to be able to bind one extra vestige or even two if I felt greedy. Lack of simultaneous binds is my sole complaint with the class) or not play a magical character at all.
The point of being a caster isn't, for me, so much the ultimate cosmic power, but having options (hence the vestiges).
In a standard 4 encounter day, the 5th level caster would be taking one action per encounter and twiddling his thumbs the rest of the time. Fun? Not for me, at least.

Really, it all boils down to Sorc+Tier 1 being broken. You'd have to redo/ban a lot to get them right. the Theme Sorcerers (Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro) are generally fine. Spontaneous divine casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) could perhaps be fine. Easier (and more fun for the players probably) to just encourage them to adopt those and alternative magic systems like Pact Magic. That keeps the high versatility and doing supernatural powerful stuff, but takes out some of the more campaign and game breaking effects and otherwise forces a bit of theme so they have to get creative with what they've got, but can apply it pretty liberally.

This all, of course, if you just want to bring down the power level of spellcasting characters. If you have other ideas like in Warhammer where demons come to eat the hapless magister's brains, that's another thing entirely.

One of the best things 4th ed ever did was making cantrips free at-will powers.

[blindhamsterman]

Hi Curmudgeon! :)

[8wGremlin]

You could implement this
In this game worlds wanted magic to appear as a ritualistic, and harder

I made all spell caster take the flaws
Methodical Magical Methods (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Methodical_Magical_Methods), Which makes them flat footed and Dex 0 (-5ac) for the round when they cast a spell

And Ponderous Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Ponderous_Spellcaster), which ups the casting time of all Standard action spells, and free action spells (std = full round, free = std)

The spell casters were then very reliant on the melee types defending them, caster items became very important, wands more than ever... But they liked it.
It evened the playing field, and the t1 players felt that it made them more special. As the melee fighting centered around them, as they battled to cast spells.

[JusticeZero]

Sounds like a horrible idea. I wouldn't play it. There is a lot of the game that is structured around everyone having access to magic and healing. the stuff you want to remove is the stuff that the casters got because they were casting their little spell and then wandering off to play a video game because they couldn't do anything.
Seriously, if you want to cut back on the power of the spellcaster types, just switch to an E6 game so that the spellcasters are restricted to the spells that don't radically change things around, and open the floodgates on feat restrictions for fighting types.

[Immabozo]

I rather liked a rule an old DM of mine had for a low magic world. For every 3 levels of a spellcasting class you took, you were required to fake 1 level of a non-spellcasting class. Nerfed magic somewhat, but the levels you missed the magic were still useful, so the game was still fun.

[strider24seven]

I have rephrased the OP in a more intelligible manner:
1. Playable base classes have been reduced to the following list:
Druid
Artificer
Factotum (Arcane Dilettante no longer exists)
Dragonfire Adept
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Incarnate
Totemist


Every other printed class is essentially unplayable:
They either do not function at low levels (any primary caster)
Or have been nerfed to the point of unplayability, i.e. are now strictly worse than other classes (binder, any secondary caster, primary casters at high levels)
Or do not function to any degree of efficiency, i.e. will be an active hindrance to the party (any class of less than T4, primary casters at mid levels, ToB classes if maneuvers follow the same guidelines as spells)
Or actually do not function at all (Warlock, Truenamer)

A more elegant solution is to tell your players not to play T1 or T2. Or not to play D&D and choose another system where spellcasting is not by far the most powerful option.

[Curmudgeon]

I made all spell caster take the flaws
Methodical Magical Methods (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Methodical_Magical_Methods), Which makes them flat footed and Dex 0 (-5ac) for the round when they cast a spell

And Ponderous Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Ponderous_Spellcaster), which ups the casting time of all Standard action spells, and free action spells (std = full round, free = std)
Those flaws are pretty good. Plus it gives the characters more feats to compensate. Add in the restriction that those feats can't be metamagic, and you've shifted things so spellcasters aren't quite as overwhelming.

[lunar2]

I have rephrased the OP in a more intelligible manner:
1. Playable base classes have been reduced to the following list:
Druid
Artificer
Factotum (Arcane Dilettante no longer exists)
Dragonfire Adept
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Incarnate
Totemist


Every other printed class is essentially unplayable:
They either do not function at low levels (any primary caster)
Or have been nerfed to the point of unplayability, i.e. are now strictly worse than other classes (binder, any secondary caster, primary casters at high levels)
Or do not function to any degree of efficiency, i.e. will be an active hindrance to the party (any class of less than T4, primary casters at mid levels, ToB classes if maneuvers follow the same guidelines as spells)
Or actually do not function at all (Warlock, Truenamer)

A more elegant solution is to tell your players not to play T1 or T2. Or not to play D&D and choose another system where spellcasting is not by far the most powerful option.

almost all of a binder's abilities are (Su), not (Sp) binders aren't hurt at all. DFA's still get their breath weapon, but their invocations are out.

@OP. if you want powerful magic to be hard, replace all full caster's spell progression with duskblade.

you lower their power by removing high level spells and delaying access to mid level spells. good.

you increase their endurance, so they aren't casting one spell and then pulling out their phones or whatever. good.


you've buffed them at low levels, and nerfed them at high levels. good.

[yougi]

And have all your casters be bored 90% of the time and so playing on their Ipad/pod.

That's one thing to look out for.


Well... I don't think you necessarily have to go that far with it.

I'd consider a good first step (Try it out, see how it goes)... Old School Wizarding. NO BONUS SPELLS. Not for specialist. Not for High Int. Not for any feats that grant bonus spells like Precocious Apprentice, etc. Knock out the Level 0 spell slots. Cantrips are now level 1 spells. Level 1 spells are level 2 spell, etc, etc, etc.

That alone I think would be a fundamental enough change to get what you are looking for.

The NO BONUS SPELL is something. I've played with that. The thing is, you have to make sure Casters have some kind of second option in combat. Maybe making attack cantrips at-will?


This all, of course, if you just want to bring down the power level of spellcasting characters. If you have other ideas like in Warhammer where demons come to eat the hapless magister's brains, that's another thing entirely.

Another option!

Really, what I think is often seen as troublesome are (1) utility spells, and (b) save or die/suck. I would play in a game where Magic missile is a 2nd level spell and Teleport an 8th, but not in a game where I'm stuck going in melee or getting precise shot to use my crossbow because I won't get Ray of Frost till 5th.

[Yora]

This might not work so badly at the mid levels, but at 20th level, casters are still breaking the game badly. Teleport for example is only a level 5 spell. This does too much at the low levels and not enough at the upper levels. Meanwhile, things you want people to be able to do (say raising dead party members) just got much harder.

If you want a quick and dirty fix just rule out all of T1 and T2.
I am of the oppinion "casters are not broken, specific spells are". If you want to reduce their power, alter the spell. If you don't alter the spells, you won't improve anything.

And this does indeed seem to apply in this case as well.

[Gerrtt]

TBH? I'd just ask to play a Binder (and probably ask to be able to bind one extra vestige or even two if I felt greedy. Lack of simultaneous binds is my sole complaint with the class) or not play a magical character at all.

Uh, a binder can have 4 going at once, unless I've read the description of the class wrong.

I considered an option once of having the spellcaster make some sort of casting roll, similar to how a melee character has to make an attack roll. It'd be something like d20 + casting stat mod + 1/caster level. It'd be like the difference between Bob the warmage did a good job on casting the spell vs. Bob the warmage not doing a good job casting his spell. How well you cast the spell could influence the save DC. I never fully fleshed the idea out because when I proposed it people around here said it ultimately hurt players in the long run and helped enemies out because they have fewer opportunities to fail. But I've still always thought it'd be interesting; rather than having a static DC for my spells it's dynamic and gives me chances to blow my "spell attack", but I also think it'd just make people choose no-save spells because they become exponentially more powerful. But that is easy enough to fix...make it so that there aren't as many to choose from. Give no-save spells a save, or make them rare/higher level.

[Curmudgeon]

I am of the oppinion "casters are not broken, specific spells are". If you want to reduce their power, alter the spell. If you don't alter the spells, you won't improve anything.
The problem with this approach is that there are thousands of spells, at least hundreds need to be altered, and there would be debate/argument about every alteration. Bumping all spells up to higher levels is a general improvement in the casters-vs.-noncasters power balance. Basing bonus spells on a different attribute is another attenuation of spellcaster power, by forcing SAD casters to become DAD.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I'm convinced that the best way to fix things in d&d is to not nerf characters and classes (unless something was really really really poorly written or is too powerful). Instead I think the best way to go about it is to make a more balanced system is to scrap all classes below T3 and probably quite a few T3 that are too weak. My reasoning for this is that classes like fighter seem more like NPC classes than PC classes (of course there are games that have only npc classes but this is irrelevant). Then rebuild classes with similar ideas (fighter-melee fighting person, rogue-sneaky person, exc.) but with real power and options so that they are either T1/T2 or upper T3. Buffing comes off as friendlier than nerfing and likely is more fun for players. Of course this is a lot more work than broad changes to casting classes like making spells each 1 level higher or something.

[ArcturusV]

The thing is... how would you make a "Rogue sneaky person" Tier 1?

I mean the Tier 1 concept, as I understand it, is that you can take single standard actions to just DECIMATE an entire encounter, and there is not a single encounter type that you cannot do that to. No matter what the encounter is, you have an option to just decimate any difficulty in it. Taking on an army? Check. Fragile negotiations with two feuding neighbors? Check. Slaying Gods/Demons/Dragons? Check.

Tier 2 is defined as exactly the same except that a single build can't decimate EVERY encounter they run across, but any single build can decimate a selection of encounters with but single actions. And that they have enough build flexibility that you can make them to be able to decimate any small group of encounter types.

Which tends to run into a problem point with 3rd edition in general. Mundane characters typically aren't allowed the toys to be able to do that. To make a fighter who fit those criteria would involve... much further than Tome of Battle stuff. It would be more like the realm of Dragonball stuff where your Fighter can move faster than light, teleport, fire swordbeams that can destroy a city block, fly at will, sunder entire areas with just a glance at them, etc.

It's not the problem that a class is "poorly designed" so much as the design philosophy in general of "Magic can do anything/solve anything, and non-magical characters cannot".

Or to borrow what I've read of 5th edition's design philosophy, "Wizards will fight and kill Gods. Fighters are just there to deal with minions."

[Shining Wrath]

Instead of raising all spell levels, may I suggest dividing spells per day by 2, dropping fractions? Wizards can still do great things, just not very often. Of course, this also requires doing something to make scrolls and wands less powerful or available - probably multiply cost by 3 or 5.

[Seer_of_Heart]

The thing is... how would you make a "Rogue sneaky person" Tier 1?

I mean the Tier 1 concept, as I understand it, is that you can take single standard actions to just DECIMATE an entire encounter, and there is not a single encounter type that you cannot do that to. No matter what the encounter is, you have an option to just decimate any difficulty in it. Taking on an army? Check. Fragile negotiations with two feuding neighbors? Check. Slaying Gods/Demons/Dragons? Check.


I never said they had to be T1, I said T1/T2 (they're very similar) or upper T3. Upper T3 is the most likely for 90%+ rewrites but depending on how you design it T1/T2 may be possible.



Tier 2 is defined as exactly the same except that a single build can't decimate EVERY encounter they run across, but any single build can decimate a selection of encounters with but single actions. And that they have enough build flexibility that you can make them to be able to decimate any small group of encounter types.

Which tends to run into a problem point with 3rd edition in general. Mundane characters typically aren't allowed the toys to be able to do that. To make a fighter who fit those criteria would involve... much further than Tome of Battle stuff. It would be more like the realm of Dragonball stuff where your Fighter can move faster than light, teleport, fire swordbeams that can destroy a city block, fly at will, sunder entire areas with just a glance at them, etc.

What's wrong with dragonball stuff? This is sorta of what I wish that "fighters" could do.


It's not the problem that a class is "poorly designed" so much as the design philosophy in general of "Magic can do anything/solve anything, and non-magical characters cannot".

I actually do consider fighters poorly designed, they lack the ability to do much and its possible to make a melee character that can actually do stuff. At least based on what I've heard of TOB, those sound like PCesque classes capable of doing things where fighters just get piles of feats that don't do much. I mean you are a purely mundane character as a fighter, in my opinion that is NPC status, you should be able to do things that are supernatural at level 5 at the minimum and should clearly be very special before that.


Or to borrow what I've read of 5th edition's design philosophy, "Wizards will fight and kill Gods. Fighters are just there to deal with minions."

[killem2]

Spells cannot be prepared again until 24 hours of pure study.

[OREO]

BUMP...

I'm just curious what the OP actually decided to do... if you don't mind can you detail what changes you decided to make?

Thanks!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've been known to bump all full casters down to either bard/duskblade (depending on average opt-fu of the players), bump the partial casters down to half-casters, and make the half-casters trade out their spells for a feat at every new spell level that they would have reached.

[Waker]

I went with the delayed spell progression for an arcanist when I built my mage scholar. While going through and redesigning every spell would be a task that would require a large number of people combing through the books, it would probably be best to focus on just a few spells at a time. Known offenders, especially those that completely counter certain strategies or allow no save/SR would be examples. As an example, in my games I rule that Freedom of Movement instead grants a bonus to Escape Artist and escaping from grapple equal to Caster Level, rather than auto-success.

[Grasharm]

I would play it but wouldn't even consider a class that used any sort of magic. Also Pally, and monk go out the window too since they rely so heavily on spell likes to make them palatable. Can you imagine a paladin without his sacred bond?

I think another way that is basically retreading old paths that could work is go back to the you have to study/pray/meditate and gather mana for a hour per level of the spell you want to regain. Then if you really wanted to kick them while they where down make them make a concentration check or the lose their concentration at some point in the process and have to start over. Roll percentile to determine how much of that time you wasted before you can start again. Casters would be a little more frugal with their spells since casting that fireball means not only 8 hours of rest which everyone was gonna take anyway but 3 hours of prep. So you could only really fully recharge when you had large amounts of down time.

This allows casters to keep their power but makes them think twice about using it instead of that crossbow you mentioned.