[DM'ing | PF] I messed up. Please help.

[WeeFreeMen]

So... admittedly, I messed up.

First, some story so this all makes sense.
[The Party] was supposed to go to an enemy Goblin/Hobgoblin siege camp to disable their weapons so that the goblins couldn't take the offensive on the nearby town. Pretty standard stuff. Upon the rouge scouting the Area and finding some Intel, they discovered that one of the Hobgoblin "Generals" was inside the Encampment. However, upon assaulting the camp they found him away on a side mission (A cause and effect of what happened previously last session). [The Party] took a unexpectedly long time disabling the seige camp (so much so, that they didn't kill all the NPCs, however, they managed to clear the Catapults by catching them on Fire). The party then spotted out the BBEG coming up the road, however at this point the party already splitted off to "Withdraw" in several directions and 2 players got caught (Barbarian and Druid). Both of the failed their Will saves for the Cower effects and basically got CC'd into the ground, due to horrible saves on their part.

The fault I speak of is, I got soft. I gave them multiple saves trying to use any excuse to at-least save one of them (even going so far as luck/fate rolls for burning debris falling BBEG's way). To no avail. The Barbarian now lies at -20 HP on Deaths Door and the Cleric got Coup' De Graced trying to save the Barbarian. Everyone else split. The Druid got saved by friendly NPC "Magical Wizard with Wormholes" because I got soft.

My question to the Forum is am I truly at fault for being so Lenient? I feel as though it was unfair, even with the saves and I want my players to have a good time. Is it "wrong" as a DM to not follow "The Will of the Dice". I just don't want to invalidate death within my campaign, however, I don't want TKPs due to bad rolls and unfortunate situations.

Also, I wouldn't mind build suggestions for a Temporal wizard (who has dementia and/or is slowly losing his mind due to bouncing back and fourth all the planes and different time-streams. Hes basically lost his concept of Time)

[GreenZ]

There is an easy way to avoid unnecessary PC death while still allowing for dice randomness and player stupidity, make defeat =/= death. Defeat should have consequences but death does not always need to be the only option. Once the party members were "CC'd to the ground" there could have been many more flavorful story options rather than to simply kill them.

For example,

Have the BBEG hold the party members hostage, trying to beat information out of them or using them in some other manner and forcing the other party member to stage a rescue or provide the trapped PC's with a daring escape from their captors..

Have the BBEG maim them and leave them for dead, some time later they wake up a little less whole than a few hours ago. Or with less gear. Or some other negative element.

Have the BBEG speak to the PC's, a bit of clever speaking might give the other party members enough time to stage a rescue or provide other opportunities for the PC's to escape.

Have the BBEG take their things and beat them before returning them as a message to his attackers, later let the group reclaim most of what was lost.




At this point you may want to identify the elements of the story that are causing problems and clarify your concerns to your players. I am sure your friends will understand and will likely give you hints toward how they want to play the game even if you do not know quite how you want to run it. If you communicate with your players about problems you have you should begin to get a feel for not only what they want but also how you want to GM. :smallsmile:

[WeeFreeMen]

Thank you GreenZ for the sound advice.
I had wholly planned on allowing the Barbarian to either be captured or awaken nearly naked without any intel for the last X hours.

I do believe I will be doing Capture + Torture for the BBEG and Barbarian.
That being said, the Cleric wanted to reroll into a Bard. So we did Odds or Evens for what the BBEG did to him. He rolled Death.

I do not like killing my PCs and I completely agree with Defeat =/= Death. If anything, Defeat = Death of an NPC, that they have become attached to, in which they are even more upset because of said attachment. I find that to be more potent than PC death.

What I need to figure out now is the BBEG Interrogation encounter and what to do with the Druid who got whisked away by the Temporal Mage.
Ive never done an in-dept interrogation. Any advice for said encounter?

For reference, the BBEG is a Witch/Alchemist specialized in Fear effects and CC.

[GreenZ]

Hmmm... This definitely seems like the perfect moment for some clever roleplaying. I would, personally, start off with pure roleplay and only include dice for very specific reasons (such as bluffing) or only if the player wants to roll dice (some groups or players like pure roleplay, some like to rely more heavily on dice, some like a mix.)

The BBEG would want to know who attacked him (specifically and generally), why they attacked him, what their plans are, and any information he can use to get revenge (such as obvious weaknesses or party goals or such.) Since the barbarian's party has already done some fairly significant damage to the BBEG's property it is likely he'd go into the conversation hot; any little provocation should be dealt with anger (in whatever form the BBEG displays it) and pain against the captured Barbarian.


Normal torture is also boring, there is a reason some people do strange things and use interesting devices to torture people. You might want to have the BBEG muse about how he should torture the barbarian for a moment before actually doing anything.

Some good ideas for torture might be to give the barbarian a drink; alchemist's fire, a Mutagen, or some nasty poison as a torture device is fitting of an alchemist. :smallamused:

The Blight Hex is a mildly nasty curse that pokes at the barbarian's low will save, this or any other long-term curse-like effect (even something physical like loosing a finger) might give him something to think about even after the interrogation.

and the Interrogation Witch spell is pretty much a vanilla "you want to keep silent? Enjoy your pain" spell. I would use it primarily if the barbarian simply tries to not talk at all and go into a bit of detail about the type of excruciating pain that the spell is causing.

Spells such as Cause Fear are bland and lack interactivity unless you are so great at giving descriptions that your player enjoys simply listening to them. And unless you really want the BBEG to know information from the barbarian, avoid spells such as Zone of Truth or such that might magically procure the information from the barbarian without any real interaction. :smallannoyed:



In general, if you are planning to let the barbarian eventually escape through his own actions, play off the barbarian's reaction and do not simply have a 'oh look, you suddenly escape' moment that can make the scene fall flat. For example: if the conversation devolves into a rage filled fury you might have the BBEG beat the barbarian pretty good before storming out, 'accidentally' loosening the bonds the barbarian was trapped in. He then has to sneak out of the camp or run as fast as he can while getting yelled at and shot at by a few arrows.

No matter what try and fit it to the barbarian's actions, make it look like the barbarian caused his own escape even if only by accident; this will make the player feel like he's in control, like he cause said event to happen in some form, like you are not controlling the story completely but instead wrapping the story around his input. And of course, be weary of anything unusual or interesting the player does and react to it accordingly, attempting to weave it into what happens. :smallsmile:

[Crusader2010]

Hmmm, I don't know, but when I'm a player, I don't want that ridiculous sheltering hand of god over me. No scrolls of raise dead around the corner when a PC dies, no bazillion saves, no. Because where is the challenge if you know the DM will pull you out of the fire when things go bad?

I would discuss this with your players. Ask them how far they want you to go.

[nedz]

It depends upon the style of game your group wants to play. These events seem fine to me: the PCs tried to bug out, but failed, so they should learn to do this better in future; ideally as a group, but hey.

[WeeFreeMen]

Thanks for the posts guys.
The advice is greatly appreciated.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I still just don't CC or save-or-suck my players because an incredible amount of frustration can come down to one bad roll.

[Sylthia]

The last time I had the party defeated (combination of unlucky rolls on their part, lucky on mine, and one player not showing up), I had them get captured by the big bad of the time. I had it work in the story's favor, since it turned out he was just more pragmatic than evil and working against a bigger threat. This redirected the campaign in direction I was planning eventually, just a bit earlier than expected.

Don't be afraid to defeat the party, just make sure you always have a back-up plan for if things turn sour, even if it's as simple as they get captured and have to find a way to escape. Think of how many times in movies the hero gets captured by the bad guy. It shouldn't happen every encounter, but the party shouldn't feel invincible either. I don't think a campaign should ever end with "Well, you're all dead. Let's start something else."

I tend to be lenient on the death penalty, though. During the later stages of my last campaign, it wasn't uncommon for a player to die, but I didn't make him lose a level.

[wayfare]

My advice, if they want to continue with the characters

Go Ghostwalk and bring them back as revenants. The evil cleric on the BBEG side raises them as Undeadish things, then send them to fight their party. Battle Royale ensues. If the living ones prevail, they discover that their allies are freed from the baleful enchantment at low health. Now these characters can try to cure their undeadery, or embrace it and get cool benefits.

If the raised PCs win, the whole party becomes zombitized and they struggle to break away from teh domination while being used as tools of destruction in teh opposing army. Perhaps some divine intervention could help to free/redeem the characters.

[Shining Wrath]

Party should not have split up. It's the title of a book, for pity's sake.
Party should not have dallied in the enemy's camp.
You should have had a plan in place for what would happen if the BBEG managed to fell one or more of the PCs. Interrogation comes to mind.