Powerful Charge too powerful for prereqs? (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

Any 1st level warrior/barbarian/whatever can do an extra 1d8 on a charge? What designer thought that was a good idea?

What would you suggest as a better prereq?

[Darius Kane]

That's... not powerful. :smallconfused:

[Carth]

You could make an argument that's overpowered at level 1 I suppose. But the further away from level 1 you get, the worse it is. By level 6 it's underpowered.

[Seharvepernfan]

Right. I meant at level one. That's why I think the prereqs should be a bit tougher than...bab +1.

[Darius Kane]

Still not powerful.

[Seharvepernfan]

Yeah, sure, because every 1st level orc warrior doing 1d12+1d8+4 totally isn't too powerful at all. Okay.

[Greenish]

Yeah, sure, because every 1st level orc warrior doing 1d12+1d8+4 totally isn't too powerful at all. Okay.Well, I might agree that orc warriors are too powerful at level 1.


Anyway, by level 3 (and definitely by level 6) the feat is far less useful. If it bothers you that much, ban it or tune it into something that scales to keep it useful.

[Waddacku]

First level is an amazingly terrible point to balance anything around.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, sure, because every 1st level orc warrior doing 1d12+1d8+4 totally isn't too powerful at all. Okay.

If it's the NPCs doing that, there's a reasonable argument that says the basic Orc's D12+4 is too powerful at level one, since 10.5 damage is largely garenteed to OHKO most level one PCs.

The problem is less Powerful Charge and more level 1 characters have always been waaay too fragile. (Which is why almost every published module I've ever seen starts out with Goblins or Kobolds or something with no Str bonus to damage as the starting mooks.)

On the other hand, Colour Spray and Sleep are far worse.


First level is an amazingly terrible point to balance anything around.

Exactly.

[Seharvepernfan]

ban it or tune it into something that scales to keep it useful.

I guess.

I just saw that prereq and figured that something had to be done, because it's exactly the kind of thing I think every orc, ogre, and barbarian would take, for both fluff and crunch.

It should definitely scale with level, but I think a +2 or +3 prereq is in order to keep things a little less ridiculous.

Anyway, thanks for your input, folks.

[Gotterdammerung]

If powerful charge is too powerful for first level, then don't ever look up the death devotion feat.

[Aotrs Commander]

I guess.

I just saw that prereq and figured that something had to be done, because it's exactly the kind of thing I think every orc, ogre, and barbarian would take, for both fluff and crunch.

It should definitely scale with level, but I think a +2 or +3 prereq is in order to keep things a little less ridiculous.

Anyway, thanks for your input, folks.

Power attack is a much better investment, since it scales (by the time you've got a handful of levels under your belt, especially with a two-handed weapon PA is outputting more damage by a long margin, for a fairly low (by that point) cost and it can be used in more than just a charge. Feats are a limited resource, and unless you can retrain feats on level-up (which some DMs allow, following suggestions in PHB 2), a slot on Powerful Charge is kind of a big waste past very low levels.

(Anyway, if you're seriously planning for uber-charging, you go Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper at level 6 and Headless Charge the crap out of things with maximum Power Attack.)

Monsters optimised for level 1 combat only may find it useful, but as stated, optimising for fighting level 1 PCs is a bad idea, since they're so fragile it's far too easy to kill them without trying very hard.

[navar100]

Any 1st level warrior/barbarian/whatever can do an extra 1d8 on a charge? What designer thought that was a good idea?

What would you suggest as a better prereq?

Are you perfectly ok then with a 1st level spellcaster forcing his opponent to make a saving throw or die? How about multiple opponents in 15 ft area?

[killem2]

It's not that powerful. Even a Goliath, at level 2, who is a level 1 psy warrior, gets to obtain large size and use a huge weapon, 4d6+upwards of 9 extra damage for a greatsword.

It sounds like a lot. But 13-34 damage in one swing, for one round, might bring down one weak mook, where a normal hit would have as well, you are still left with a lower AC for the round, and if the DM is smart, they would have planed the battle accordingly to be a challenge and now just a bunch of free exp.

A powerful charge at level 1, while it is a an extra d8, you have to be able to charge, you get to do it once, unless you manage to kill the target (possibly but chances are still good you wont), and if you don't you'd have to generate AoO against yourself to set up another charge.

If anything, it needs to scale BETTER at higher levels, like 1d8 every two levels or something.

If you are the DM, do not try and balance out level 1 abilities or feats or classes or any of it. Level 1 is already so fragile a level that many classes need as much as they can get already to survive.