Advice on a Paladin Gish

[Gurgeh]

Hey all, I've been tossing around ideas for a character I'll be bringing in to replace my current PC in an ongoing campaign. Party ECL is fairly high (most characters are ~13) but fairly low-op: the current party consists of a fighter/dwarven defender, a swashbuckler/wizard/eldritch knight, a paladin, a fighter (primarily focusing on archery) and a cloistered cleric/wizard/mystic theurge (my current PC).

While tossing low-level spells around like candy has been tremendous fun, I've found myself wanting to try out hitting things over the head - I'd rather keep a bit of magical flavour on my character, however, so I figured a Gish would be a logical choice.

Just to put it straight on the table, I'm not looking for crazy-high optimisation advice: my group isn't dead-set on twinking out their characters and I have no desire to overshadow them by simply existing. I'm looking for my character to be very much part of the team from day one: perhaps a little stronger than them on paper, but largely playing the same game as they are. No early entry tricks, no insane metamagic cheese, no winning level-appropriate encounters in the surprise round, etc.

Currently I'm looking at a rough build of Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 2 (I want Channel Spell). Obviously I'd be better off going for Pal 2/Sorc 4 if I wanted more spells, but this guy's not supposed to be a spellcaster who can also whack things with a sword, he's supposed to be a swordsman who can use magic to shield his allies and turn his sword into a cattle prod/tactical nuke when the occasion demands - I want him to very much see himself as warrior first and magician second, and I want to keep as much BAB as possible.

I'm planning on taking the Holy Warrior ACF for the Paladin in order to get a bonus feat (since a single wis-dependent level 1 spell seems fairly paltry by comparison) and going for the Divine Companion ACF for Sorcerer for flavour reasons.

Non-negotiables include:

•Paladin levels. I want to be going around smiting evil and being a goody two-shoes.

•The ability to actually use his weapon for magic tricks (hence Spellsword for eventual Channel Spell hilarity)

•An overall spell list focused more on defence and mitigation rather than direct damage or battlefield control - he's not trying to win encounters by himself, he just wants to be another brick in the wall.

Feats I'm considering:

•Spell Focus [abjuration] (required for Energy Abjuration)
•Energy Abjuration (getting free stuff for spells I can cast as swift actions seems nice)
•Power Attack (because true strike is lulzy)
•Combat Expertise and some of its daughter feats (improved disarm/trip)

Which (if any) of those are likely to be worthwhile? Is there anything else I could opt for? I'd ideally like some way of making use of my turn undead ability, since I'm going to have a boatload of charisma but no means of damaging undead with it since I'll have an effective cleric level of 1. Is it RAW-legal to use Divine feats that burn Turn Undead uses to modify spellcasting of a different class, for instance?

Also, any advice on particularly hilarious spells to channel? I was hoping to find one that could be used to send a target flying away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), but all the lowish-level spells I can find seem to only knock targets prone (blast of force) or rely on bull rushing with fairly pathetic [and unmodifiable] save DCs (melf's unicorn arrow).

tl;dr version: what are some good feat options for a pal/sorc gish who's more interested in beating things up than zapping them?

[Chilingsworth]

look at some divine feats to spend your turn attempts on. Divine might, for instance.

For spell channel: Combust is kinda nice: it deals 1d10 damage per level (and can set the target on fire). It doesn't send the target flying, but it hurts alot.

[Gurgeh]

Oh, I didn't notice that Divine Might was a free action (assumed it was swift or standard, and my action economy is probably going to be tight). Thanks for the tip! Divine Vigor also looks rather neat, given its minutes-per-character-level duration and untyped bonus (hence stacking with haste/expeditious retreat/whatever). I think I missed the CW divine feats because they're not in the main body of feats.

Cheers!

[Jeff the Green]

Gonna toot my own horn here and recommend a homebrew class I built a while back: The Faerie Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263845). It gives you some nifty stuff on its own, plus advances another class's features 5/10 levels. You'll need to be a Paladin of Freedom, but it's generally considered better anyway. I'd go Sorc 4/Pal 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Faerie Champion 10/AC +1. That nets you casting like a level 13 sorcerer, 18 BAB (and CL), all the goodies of Abjurant Champion, and some nifty stuff like a free (weak) cohort, DR, wings, and social graces. You'll need to pick up Knowledge Devotion or Education for Knowledge (nature) as a class skill and get some extra skill points to put into a couple of cross-class skills, but it's worth it, IMO. Feats, by the way, would probably look like

Flaw or Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
Flaw: Nymph's Kiss
Human: Deceitful
1st: Force of Personality
3rd: Smiting Spell
6th: Combat Casting
9th: Power Attack
12th-18th: whatever

I'm leaving out a few things you mentioned because they're not great options for a gish, regardless of whether you go with Faerie Champion or not.

Spellsword level 2. Spell channeling is nice, but I really prefer Smiting Spell. It's a +1 metamagic that does the same thing, though a little less efficiently. I'd personally rather get into Abjurant champion earlier and not lose that casting level. Plus, if you ignore errata (in this case, it's certainly not overpowered), you can get the DMM version if you go for four levels in paladin.
Energy Abjuration. Not worth a feat when you can get it so many other ways. Plus, there are too few Abjuration spells to make Spell Focus in it anything but a waste.
Combat maneuvers: Needing to invest in Charisma, Strength, and Constitution, you really don't want to put more in Int than you can afford, and you have more useful things you can do with your feats.


Some ACFs you might consider:

Metamagic Specialist. Reducing casting times for metamagicked spells is nice.
Paladin of Freedom. CG instead of LG. Needed to enter Faerie Champion, if you want to go that direction, and immunity to compulsions is usually better than immunity to fear.


Also, check out the Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786).

[Gurgeh]

Smiting Spell is actually a lot less powerful than Channel Spell, as it only works on touch spells and takes a standard action rather than a move action to activate. So not only is the action economy worse, it's losing out on a lot of neat spell options (ray of enfeeblement, colour spray - hell, even personal-range buff spells on your allies, if your DM will refrain from hitting you with a book).

I'd misread Energy Abjuration's description and thought that its benefit applied to any/all targets of the spell (they don't, they only apply to the caster), so I'll probably toss it.

I think I'll disagree on the stat distribution: I see no reason to invest heavily in strength. Most of my damage output will be from power attacking and taking advantage channeled spells/arcane boost. I'll probably just opt for 13/14 and pump it up with equipment - it's not as if I'm going to need it to hit given I'll have True Strike whenever I really need it.

I'm also not entirely sure that your class works for me. Quite apart from the fact that it's very much on the high end of the power scale, the roleplaying elements pretty much run directly against my character concept. I was intending to play a disciple of Bahamut who's gotten where he is through discipline and his conscientious nature rather than through whimsy - he's a leader more than a follower, and being handed a bunch of cool powers because he's banging the local nymph doesn't really fit in there. Thanks anyway!

---

...having gone through Complete Champion, combining the Overwhelming Smite manouevre from Awesome Smite (free trip attempt after a smite + power attack) with Improved Trip would let you put your opponent on the ground and hit them twice with a big fat power attack. Probably not ideal for this build since it only gets one smite a day without burning a feat on Extra Smiting, but rather neat. Maybe worth it if I want to pick up a flaw along the way.

[Callin]

Havoc Mage from the Miniatures Handbook would not be a bad prestige class to take a level in. Since you want to mainly use lower level spells the first level will give you Battle Cast (2nd). Which will allow you to as a full round action to Attack once and Cast one spell of second level or lower.

Just spitballing here.

edit: also the Battle Sorc variant isnt horrible and keeps inline with your theme and requirements. Not to mention you can use light armor then. Pick up a Mithril Breastplate and you are all set.
Feats wise did you look at Arcane Strike? Or did you not want to sacrifice spells to deal a bit of extra damage on attacks?

[Ardantis]

You said the game was low-op, and here you're swinging around an Abjurant Champion build.

Make your life easier:

Paladin/Bard with the overlap feat from Complete Champion (or PHB II)

[Greenish]

I might recommend Suel Arcanamach (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829) (Complete Arcane). You can enter with straight paladin (preferably with Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels from Champions of Valor), get fairly fast-advancing Cha-based arcane spellcasting, casting in armour, free extend spell on everything (that stacks with the metamagic), and your spells are harder to dispel. Four levels just loses you one BAB, and then you'll go for Abjurant Champion, and maybe round up with Spellsword.

[Jeff the Green]

Smiting Spell is actually a lot less powerful than Channel Spell, as it only works on touch spells and takes a standard action rather than a move action to activate. So not only is the action economy worse, it's losing out on a lot of neat spell options (ray of enfeeblement, colour spray - hell, even personal-range buff spells on your allies, if your DM will refrain from hitting you with a book).

Oh, I agree, Channel Spell is strictly better than Smiting Spell. I just prefer spending a feat on it than losing a spellcasting level. Entirely up to you, though.


I think I'll disagree on the stat distribution: I see no reason to invest heavily in strength. Most of my damage output will be from power attacking and taking advantage channeled spells/arcane boost. I'll probably just opt for 13/14 and pump it up with equipment - it's not as if I'm going to need it to hit given I'll have True Strike whenever I really need it.

It depends on how you want to play. Early on you'll have lower damage output since you can't PA for as much. Also, remember that True Strike + Attack is two rounds; given that you can only PA up to your BAB, it may not be worth it for much of the game. But, in general, for socerer gishes Intelligence is considered a dump stat. Also remember that Trip is an opposed Strength check, so you'll need that high if you want to Trip. Also be sure to enlarge yourself to get that +4 bonus.


I'm also not entirely sure that your class works for me. Quite apart from the fact that it's very much on the high end of the power scale, the roleplaying elements pretty much run directly against my character concept. I was intending to play a disciple of Bahamut who's gotten where he is through discipline and his conscientious nature rather than through whimsy - he's a leader more than a follower, and being handed a bunch of cool powers because he's banging the local nymph doesn't really fit in there. Thanks anyway!

Oh, definitely don't use it, then. I mean, it could be refluffed, I suppose, but the SLAs and such are pretty tied to fay. You just didn't specify anything on flavor so I thought I'd throw it out. And, yeah, it's high up there on power, but it's pretty hard to get in without sinking a lot of resources into it.

[Ardantis]

Actually, scratch what I said before. The Devoted Performer feat stacks Palading and Bard levels for Smite Evil damage and Bardic Music uses per day. Largely useless, even compared to the other multiclassing ability stacking feats.

I agree (reluctantly) with Greenish- Suel Archanamach is an arcane Paladin gish-in-a-can.

[FireGriver]

It could be worth to add 2 levels of monk *gasp!* to the build, with the Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) variant, and pick later on the Shocktrooper feat. Don't forget to pick Ascetic Mage too, so you can add your CHA to AC, saves and if you take Divine Might you can add it to your damage too. Evasion is also a nice perk that comes with this build.

Let me see... you could do Paladin 4/Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Spellblade 2/Abjurant Champion 4, and take the last level of Abjurant Champion when you level up. Or any combination that suits you, really.

This build is a little feat dependant, but almost SAD.