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View Full Version : Best Priest/Cleric Mechanics in a RPG?



Conners
2013-03-14, 04:44 AM
Was doing some thinking about divine magic and arcane magic in RPGs. Wondering if there are some more interesting takes on it than what DnD has.

Out of the RPG systems you have seen, what's the most interesting interpretation you've seen of clerics/priests?

Urpriest
2013-03-14, 06:23 PM
Malefactor caste in Exalted (Infernals), hands down. Most priests do things like healing and buffing and flinging vaguely Judeo-Christian spells, things that are only vaguely priestlike. Malefactors get more powerful the bigger their congregation, and can do things like summon food in the desert and ANSWER PRAYERS. They're the closest thing I've ever seen to a mechanic that makes a character feel like a priest rather than like a holiness-themed wizard.

Dimers
2013-03-14, 06:26 PM
The most interesting was oWoD Mage: The Ascension. Any priestly magic was actually generated from the caster's own mind and energy. The books described a couple different ways people fooled themselves into believing that it was God instead. Exception: socially adept shaman could get spirits to use magic on their behalf ... although the shaman still used magic themselves to contact and influence those spirits.

Actually I seem to have a lot of RPG books that deny or ignore Deity. There are no gods at all, and no divine magic, in the Black Company setting ... Shadowrun has the same assumption as old Mage about the magic being man-made, though they're not as in-your-face about it.

GURPS 4th edition has the most flexibility I've seen for creating exactly what you want your divine magician to be. But then, it has the most flexibility for most things.

Rorrik
2013-03-14, 06:42 PM
Ooh! Please, more answers to this question. I've always though the power of divine casting should come largely from the relationship with the deity. A priest should become more powerful by performing rituals and being better connected to his deity. If he transgresses, he should lose power on some level.

I would like to see something that makes the priest's belief level a factor: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/religion-in-games-part-2

Rhynn
2013-03-14, 07:00 PM
I like a couple systems in particular...

Priests in HârnMaster get spell-like miracles in several circles (which correspond strictly to cleric rank; you won't be taught a miracle until you're initiated to that Circle, which requires an ever-higher degree of skill in your deity's Ritual skill and the corresponding position in the church hierarchy). But everyone has a deity (or, rarely, more than one) and can earn Piety Points with the deity, which can be spent at high cost to try to call a non-codified miracle (i.e. GM-adjudicated based on what you ask for). Calling for miracles in this fashion burns up Piety Points.

In Artesia: Adventures in the Known World, the gods are very real if distant and inscrutable (and more elemental forces or archetypes than beings with personalities), and almost every prayer has real power. Literally everyone (like the standard "farmer" NPC and 15-year-old squires in the intro adventure) knows the spells to make offerings to their deity, and to invoke the favor earned thus.

By making offerings or taking part in sacrifices to an aspect, called "epithet", of your deity, you earn Invocation Points for that specific epithet of that deity (for instance, Yhera Invictus, or Islik the Conqueror of Death), which you keep forever until you use a Prayer of Invocation and expend them (each epithet has one or more listed; for instance, one of the invocation to Yhera Invictus is "Bring me victory!"), gaining a bonus (in the aforementioned case, a bonus equal to the points spent on all Opposed Tests in the next battle or contest you take part in).

This does complicate things a bit, since technically everyone has the ability to "buff" before combat; but in practice, a warrior is going to have 1 or 2 useful invocations available for a fight.

It's also tremendously good at tying your players to the world, oddly enough. The introductory adventure includes a tiny shrine, barely recognizable, to Yhera on the climb up to a knight's towerhouse. I mentioned it in passing, but my players immediately fixated on it, made offerings at it (even though it was to an epithet of really no value to adventurers), sacrificing Spirit points they might soon have needed for more urgent magic, just because they thought it was the thing to do. They returned later to make sure the shrine was kept Purified (spiritual pollution will taint people and holy sites, causing penalties to Cult magic use) and that there were offerings there (and that no one had stolen them - it was in a region where the goddess is technically heresy).

Priests also have access to a host of other magic, but the rest of it is no different from the other systems of magic in the game (they are Alchemical, Cult, Folk, Herbal, Hermetic, Occult, and Star).

Some of the epithets are way too powerful to allow to be used, though - the magic system of A:AKW is very easily abused by players who realize how it works.

RuneQuest (RQ6 or MRQ2, mostly; which, funnily enough, used ideas from an old TradeTalk fanzine I even have a copy of to update old RQ) has cool systems. Old versions of RQ were harsh about divine magic; you permanently sacrificed Power (POW) attribute (although it was the one attribute that could be easily increased), and unless you were a full Priest (basically the second- or third-highest "level" you could get to, in a levelless, classless game), casting divine magic caused you to lose the spell permanently! :smalleek:

Long explanation of RQ divine magic:
In MRQ2, you "dedicate" part of your POW attribute (rolled on 3d6; most spells require 1 POW, but might require as many as 3-4 for the most powerful ones) to learn divine magic spells, and you regain them by praying at a shrine (possibly for days). The power of a spell depends on your skills (each magic system works off of two skills; one for casting rolls, one for magic power; a balancing factor in a skill-based game). The MRQ2-based Elric of Melniboné RPG elaborates from this - there is no divine magic, but you dedicate POW to deities (bartering away your soul bit by bit to beings bent on dominating the multiverse), and gain Gifts in return (magical powers, immortality, unnatural servants, artifacts, etc.).

In RQ6, you instead sacrifice Magic Points to form a Devotional Pool - essentially extra magic points. These points (and only these points) are used to cast divine magic spells, or miracles (which no longer require sacrificing or dedicating POW). How miracles are learned is partly up to the GM (RQ6 does this in many places, telling the GM to determine the specifics of matters not strictly covered by rules, which I love, because it's generally stuff that would vary from world to world), but basically it requires expending the experience point equivalents of RQ6. The maximum size of your Devotional Pool depends on your rank in the cult (Initiate, Acolyte, Priest, High Priest). There are, again, two skills for each type of magic, one for the casting roll and one for the power of the miracles.

In MRQ2 and RQ6, each type of magic has its own advantages. Sorcery is flexible and customizable (you can set the parameters for each spell, including range, number of targets, duration, precise power, etc.), shamanism is low-cost over long durations (you summon and bind spirits which are cheap to use once bound, and have no cost over time once put to serve; although there's other risks), and divine magic is the most bluntly powerful (but with limited duration, no customization, and fairly high cost).

It's mentioned that in some settings (such as Glorantha, the traditional setting of RuneQuest), as your Devotion (the skill that powers your miracles) increases, your character will act more and more like the deity. This is a Gloranthan metaphysical theme: theists use magic by emulating their deity, and the better at it they are, the more like their deity they are... for better and for worse. A worshipper of the berserker god Storm Bull is going to have a hard time not acting like a frothing violent lunatic, for instance.

Theistic cults may also have access to Divine Intervention - calling directly on a god for help. In older RQ, this was first a divine (then rune magic) spell, IIRC, and later a roll against your POW (which reduced your POW by the number rolled if successful, possibly resulting in 0 POW and your soul being taken up by your god - game over, that is). In RQ6, it just reduces your Devotion skill (if you ask much from your god, your relationship is strained and must be balanced by renewed devotion on your part; it's not a relationship of equals, after all).

Grinner
2013-03-14, 07:08 PM
In Unknown Armies, there are these guys called Avatars who attempt to pigeonhole themselves into a role, like The Mother or The Warrior. By emulating these roles, called Archetypes, they tap into the power of the collective unconscious. There's more to it, like the cosmic destiny of mankind, but that's about the short of it.

One of the sourcebooks, Ascension of the Magdalene, actually provides a d20 version of the Avatar rules.

Arbane
2013-03-14, 08:36 PM
The TORG RPG had an interesting take on miracles. The game's premise was that other dimensions were invading Earth, over-writing our reality with their own. Things like technological level, magic, religion, and social organization had separate levels - one invading reality had no magic at all, but immensely powerful miracles.

Assuming the local reality supported miracles, anyone with the Faith skill could try and work a miracle, but it had to be themed to their religion. (I was rather amused by people with Faith: Atheism being able to cancel out other people's miracles.)

MirddinEmris
2013-03-14, 09:48 PM
Fantasy Craft has one of the best mechanics for Priests, i've ever seen. First, you need to have according Alignment (bought on character resources called Interests), then you take Steps in the Paths of this Alignment (Step progression depend on class). Steps can grant you different kind of abilities, it can be a couple of spells per day (without spending spell points or making a check) or it can be any other thing you can imagine (ability to become incorporeal for a couple of rounds or ignore some grades of conditions per scene). It''s flavorful and totally different from "divine spellcasting" in DnD 3.5

Raimun
2013-03-15, 11:44 AM
DnD 3.5/Pathfinder has one of the best mechanics. You can heal people better than anyone else but you can still shine in other areas too. No one likes to play a healbot.

Edit:Oh, and Clerics of Cayden Cailean can use Create Water to make infinite beer. I rest my case.

But apart from that? Space Marine Chaplains from Deathwatch, of course. Becoming one is an achievement on its own and you get a nice skull helmet and some other stuff too. You also become totally relentless.

You could even heal your fellow warriors if you were an apothecary earlier.

Rhynn
2013-03-15, 11:48 AM
DnD 3.5/Pathfinder has one of the best mechanics. You can heal people better than anyone else but you can still shine in other areas too. No one likes to play a healbot.

:smalleek:

You read the stuff posted so far and this is what you come away with?

Raimun
2013-03-15, 01:37 PM
:smalleek:

You read the stuff posted so far and this is what you come away with?

Is there something wrong with it?

Rhynn
2013-03-15, 01:43 PM
Is there something wrong with it?

Well, compared to just about anything, D&D (any edition) has the most uninteresting priestly/divine magic, surely? It's exactly like all the other magic, and there's no relationship with your deity beyond a vague acknowledgement that, by DM decision, you might lose your magic. A cleric is a wizard with a different spell list and better combat ability. (Actually an approach I like for old-school D&D, because it's so sword & sorcery.)

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-15, 01:54 PM
The games I've played have had pretty poor rules. I'll go ahead and note that modern D&D (3.x. and 4) are historically the worst D&D games when it comes to religiosity. In 1st Ed, Clerics attracted followers and had to found a monastery, while Druids and Monks had a strict hierarchy and religious vows they had to follow, which came up increasingly often as they leveled.

The fact that modern D&D has so poor divinity rules is why I decided to rewrite them myself, damn it! :smalltongue:

Raimun
2013-03-15, 02:54 PM
3.5-style clerics are fun. The domain system offers both versatility and distinction. A cleric who picks War and Strength is a different game from the one who picks Animal and Plant or Travel and Trickery. Domains give clear (mechanical) identities to different deities and their worshippers. Sure, you can ignore the fluff and go for the crunch but I fail to see how that is different to other systems.

The mechanics are simple but I don't think they really need a lot of bells and whistles just so it could be really unique.

Yes, the spell preparation is on the surface similar to a wizard spell preparation but is that really a bad thing? I don't know about you but I don't like too many sub-systems. There's still a world of difference, if you go deeper. Start by reading what the actual spells do.

Besides, the "not a healbot"-thing is rather important if you ever play a priestly character.

Edit: I do admit 4th edition dropped the ball. There are only two kinds of clerics: Str-clerics and Lazer-clerics.

Friv
2013-03-15, 03:27 PM
Besides, the "not a healbot"-thing is rather important if you ever play a priestly character.

But, the thing here is...

Most RPG systems do not provide particularly healer-themed abilities to priests, aside from the occasional miracle.

If I play a priest in Exalted, I'm converting congregations and speaking to gods. In World of Darkness, I'm... well, probably nothing, really, but maybe I have True Faith and can bless water and repel vampires. I assume that systems that lack magic entirely don't count, so I'm not going to go into them in detail.

If I'm a priest in Star Wars I'm probably more specifically a lightsaber-wielding monk with crazy telekinetic powers. I like their priests a lot.

Rhynn
2013-03-15, 03:41 PM
Most RPG systems do not provide particularly healer-themed abilities to priests, aside from the occasional miracle.

Seriously.

In RuneQuest, there's one healing deity, and since her worshippers are pacifists, hardly anyone ever plays one. Being a priest of Humakt, the God of Death, for instance, means you are a death-dealing machine (who may not even be permitted to benefit from magical healing, much less able to deal it out). In HârnMaster, Laranians and Agrikans are pretty much paladins and antipaladins.

Urpriest
2013-03-15, 09:11 PM
If I play a priest in Exalted, I'm converting congregations and speaking to gods.

And answering prayers. I really cannot emphasize this enough. Malefactors=best priests ever.

Asmodai
2013-03-15, 09:57 PM
Dark Ages: Mage's Messianic Voices are hands down my favourite version. Mage The Ascension's take on clerics/priests that's wholly dependant on your Faith and allows for some insane goodness is a close second (but mostly because the cleric feel comes with too much judeochristian baggage).

Jack of Spades
2013-03-15, 10:06 PM
Deadlands has the Blessed, whose power is drawn directly from their God or gods (although the system assumes Christianity in most cases).

They do miracles, and have about the same RP barrier as d20 paladins but with more forgiving rules. A Blessed who commits a major sin has to make a Faith roll to avoid losing a chunk of their power.

Interestingly, Blessed are not necessarily priests. God's chosen come from anywhere in the flock.

Blessed miracles tend to focus on buffing, healing, and fighting the undead. They also have access to Gifts, which are passive buffs that make well-built Blessed silly-broken (in Classic).

I like the Blessed because like every other type of magic in Classic Deadlands they have their own set of rules and mechanics for how their magic works. Blessed magic is the easiest to use (often just a single skill check), but the hardest to keep hold of in a world as violent and amoral as Deadlands is.

Xefas
2013-03-15, 10:43 PM
Dogs in the Vineyard, obviously. You're an 18-20 year old, unmarried virgin, given a gun, a bible, a horse, and the full and absolute authority of your church that your every action is righteous and correct in the eyes of your deity, and sent out into the world to deliver mail.

Sure, absolute divine certainty doesn't give you bonus dice to anything, but it'll manage to effect things anyway, almost guaranteed.


And answering prayers. I really cannot emphasize this enough. Malefactors=best priests ever.

Malefactors are more unto Gods themselves, rather than priests. Their powers are centered around creating worship for themselves, not creating worship for, or personally worshiping, something else. At best, they're like Cthulhu - actually a priest of a far more terrible power, but as far as mortals are capable of conceiving, they might as well be the end of the divine chain. If you show up to a village, kill their pantheon, and then tell the people 'No, wait! I am but the herald!', their heads might explode.

Jack of Spades
2013-03-15, 11:40 PM
Dogs in the Vineyard, obviously. You're an 18-20 year old, unmarried virgin, given a gun, a bible, a horse, and the full and absolute authority of your church that your every action is righteous and correct in the eyes of your deity, and sent out into the world to deliver mail.

Sure, absolute divine certainty doesn't give you bonus dice to anything, but it'll manage to effect things anyway, almost guaranteed.

If I ever run a Deadlands game, it is most definitely going to contain this concept.

Also, gonna buy that game now.

Friv
2013-03-16, 12:32 AM
And answering prayers. I really cannot emphasize this enough. Malefactors=best priests ever.

Aside from the part where hearing prayers requires them to walk through a bad Charm and one of the worst Charms ever written, yeah.

I do love Penitents Like Scattered Grains, but I would never play a character who reached for it. :smallfrown:

Arbane
2013-03-16, 02:36 AM
Malefactors are more unto Gods themselves, rather than priests. Their powers are centered around creating worship for themselves, not creating worship for, or personally worshiping, something else.

For Solar-level Exalted, becoming a god would a significant step DOWN in power. :smallbiggrin: