Can the Order afford to destroy another Gate?

[The Succubus]

Howdy,

I've been flicking through some of the older comics and re-read #823 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html). It seems to be something people have been overlooking in the whole "what should the Order do now" thing but I don't think they can actually risk doing anything to Girrad's Gate.

The Rift over Gobbotopia has become enormous and I'm fairly sure it won't be long before other people besides Blackwing start noticing that there's another world inside there. We've also lost track of the Rifts in Lirian' Forest and under the remains of Dorukan's castle as well, both of which must be exceedingly large by now.

Another thing to remember is the reason they were dragged all the way to Azure City in the first place - on the charge of "destroying Dorukan's Gate and weakening the fabric of reality". It's the last bit in particular that has nasty implications. If they destroy Girrad's Gate, it means there's 4 rifts dotted all over the world, growing and expanding all the time.

The Rifts in Lirian's Forest and in Redmountain may actually be even larger than the Azure City one - remember initially how it was small enough to fit in a gemstone? Now it's easily the size of the city, if not larger.

If the Order is really left with no other choice than to blow up Girrad's Gate, there's going to be some extremely dire consequences to follow because of it.

[Sunken Valley]

Liran's Rift was destroyed 30 years ago and we had no problems. Dorukan's is buried under a mountain. And if this gate is somewhere secluded I don't think there will be problems.

[The Succubus]

Lirian's Gate was destroyed but that's not the same as saying the Rift was closed because of it. Remember Redcloak's ritual requires a Gate to work - not a Rift. As for Dorukan's Gate being buried - I really don't see how that would work, given that things can fall into a Rift.

[sam79]

The Scorched Earth stategy was always one that had potential risks in terms of weakening the fabric of reality; we don;t know exactly how significant those risks are though. I think the more important problem with the Order destroying this Gate is the strategic one; if Team Evil discover that Girard's Gate is gone, they know exactly where the final gate is and, more importantly, have the means to Teleport there directly. The Order cannot do this, and in the weeks it will take them to get to Kragor's Gate, Team Evil will have found the Gate and completed their ritual; Game Over.

[theNater]

Recall that way back in #544 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html), Redcloak tells us the rate of growth is decreasing. It is possible that its size in 823 is as big as its going to get.

As for the other rifts, there are certainly problems in their neighborhoods if they are proportionally larger. However, it is possible that they are larger by specific amounts(so Dorukan's is still 10' wider than Soon's, which at this point is negligible).

The short answer is that we don't know enough to be sure how bad blowing up Girard's gate would be. We do know that letting Xykon claim it would be really, really bad, however, so lacking further information, I would tend to destroy it before letting it fall into Xykon's hands. It's a risk based on a guess and some hope, but it's the best we've got at the moment.

[Macros]

On the other hand, thanks to the Oracle, the Order KNOWS that Team Evil will come close to Girard's Gate. So the risks that Xykon suddenly decides "you know what ? Changed my mind, let's go to the other one" is nil.

Now, blowing it up is far from ideal, but they are running out of options, fast (and I expect them to recieve a sending from Hinjo any minute now, telling them that the Big Bad's on the move). Letting Tarquin have it is somewhat okay. Letting Xykon (or, more to the point, Redcloak) have it is not, and in their current form, I don't see them pulling out a win. And I'm not sure that, even if they were willing (which I doubt, considering the last development), teaming up with Nale and Tarquin would be enough to hold the greater menace at bay.

So yes, destroying it is a risk, and a big one. But leaving it intact is probably a much bigger risk.

[ManuelSacha]

Can it go any other way?

Frankly, Girard's Gate being blown up seems THE ONLY predictable outcome in an otherwise always surprising plot.

What happens to Serini's Gate, aka Kraagor's Tomb... that's a different story.

[Tomada]

(and I expect them to recieve a sending from Hinjo any minute now, telling them that the Big Bad's on the move).

Which brings me to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). And the implications that since RC has to prepare and then cast (probably high level) spells, that they need to rest twice before travelling to Girard's gate.

So if the sending took a few hours to reach the Order, then they still have several hours advance on Team Evil.

They can come up with something.

[factotum]

What choices do they have? Allow Xykon and Redcloak to perform their ritual on Girard's Gate--which might well lead to the destruction of the world; or destroy Girard's Gate to stop it falling into the hands of Team Evil--which might well lead to the destruction of the world. I'm not seeing a great deal of difference there! :smallsmile:

[The Succubus]

What choices do they have? Allow Xykon and Redcloak to perform their ritual on Girard's Gate--which might well lead to the destruction of the world; or destroy Girard's Gate to stop it falling into the hands of Team Evil--which might well lead to the destruction of the world. I'm not seeing a great deal of difference there! :smallsmile:

I hate to imagine what the premiums are for insuring the OotSiverse. :smalleek:

[Macros]

Which brings me to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). And the implications that since RC has to prepare and then cast (probably high level) spells, that they need to rest twice before travelling to Girard's gate.

So if the sending took a few hours to reach the Order, then they still have several hours advance on Team Evil.

They can come up with something.

Of course, but they don't know that. And even if they did, Roy admitted himself being a little bit short on ideas to stop Team Evil, and concentrated on the Linear Guild. Since then, things took a turn for the worse. I'm not saying that they will destroy the gate as soon as they see it, but I'm pretty sure it will be their last resort, and given how much pressure is on them, their last resort may follow their first one quite quickly.

[Olinser]

Howdy,

I've been flicking through some of the older comics and re-read #823 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html). It seems to be something people have been overlooking in the whole "what should the Order do now" thing but I don't think they can actually risk doing anything to Girrad's Gate.

The Rift over Gobbotopia has become enormous and I'm fairly sure it won't be long before other people besides Blackwing start noticing that there's another world inside there. We've also lost track of the Rifts in Lirian' Forest and under the remains of Dorukan's castle as well, both of which must be exceedingly large by now.

Another thing to remember is the reason they were dragged all the way to Azure City in the first place - on the charge of "destroying Dorukan's Gate and weakening the fabric of reality". It's the last bit in particular that has nasty implications. If they destroy Girrad's Gate, it means there's 4 rifts dotted all over the world, growing and expanding all the time.

The Rifts in Lirian's Forest and in Redmountain may actually be even larger than the Azure City one - remember initially how it was small enough to fit in a gemstone? Now it's easily the size of the city, if not larger.

If the Order is really left with no other choice than to blow up Girrad's Gate, there's going to be some extremely dire consequences to follow because of it.

The OOTS already knows that the Gods can re-weave the world (but the current world would have to be destroyed).

To be blunt, when you get right down to it, the choice is between blowing up a Gate, and possibly having serious consequences on the world, or let an evil, crazy lich have control of the Gate, in which case he will probably inflict incredible suffering and hardship on the world before somebody blows the Gate up to stop him anyway.

Letting either enemy team control even one Gate is simply not an option, it's the difference between POSSIBLE negative consequences, and KNOWN negative consequences.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'd say no, but they're going to be forced to do it anyway.

[The Succubus]

The OOTS already knows that the Gods can re-weave the world (but the current world would have to be destroyed).

To be blunt, when you get right down to it, the choice is between blowing up a Gate, and possibly having serious consequences on the world, or let an evil, crazy lich have control of the Gate, in which case he will probably inflict incredible suffering and hardship on the world before somebody blows the Gate up to stop him anyway.

Letting either enemy team control even one Gate is simply not an option, it's the difference between POSSIBLE negative consequences, and KNOWN negative consequences.

True but there's one slightly flaw with this train of thought - Xykon can't actually do anything with the Rifts or Gates. Redcloak has the mojo to do something but that's only because of the Dark One's power. He could destroy it but that's about it.

[angrymudcrab]

No matter who wins, wouldn't it be theoretically possible to rebuild the gates once the fighting is over? The gates were built by the order of the scribble, not the gods. Even if all the gates are destroyed, they could probably be rebuilt. The Sapphire Guard probably knows how the gates are built and even if that was lost they could probably get the southern gods to help them out. This would even be viable if team evil wins, since the plan requires a gate to work and if there are none they already have direct control over one of the rifts. It would take a while to figure out how, but time doesn't mean a great deal to a lich and Redcloak's red cloak either keeps him permanently young or at least drastically slows his aging.


EDIT: I accidentally a sentance.

[Olinser]

True but there's one slightly flaw with this train of thought - Xykon can't actually do anything with the Rifts or Gates. Redcloak has the mojo to do something but that's only because of the Dark One's power. He could destroy it but that's about it.

WE know that, but Roy and the OOTS most definitely do not. They have no idea that Redcloak has already laid the seeds of his rebellion against Xykon - in fact, I'm not even sure they know about the ritual or that it takes an arcane/divine caster combo to begin with.

The only thing they really know is the nature of the Snarl, and that Xykon has A plan to control it.

[Morty]

WE know that, but Roy and the OOTS most definitely do not. They have no idea that Redcloak has already laid the seeds of his rebellion against Xykon - in fact, I'm not even sure they know about the ritual or that it takes an arcane/divine caster combo to begin with.

The only thing they really know is the nature of the Snarl, and that Xykon has A plan to control it.

Yes, this. When it comes down to it, the Order and their allies know very little about what their enemies want to do with the Gate, or their means of accomplishing it. As far as they know, Xykon might well start his world conquest within five minutes of reaching a Gate.

[Ron Miel]

No matter who wins, wouldn't it be theoretically possible to rebuild the gates once the fighting is over? The gates were built by the order of the scribble, not the gods.

They were built by epic level casters after years of research. Potentially someone could duplicate it, but not in a day.

And not while Xykon is trying to take control of them.

[CWH10301964]

Of course the Gate will go BOOM.

Elan would be the first to get the dramatic trope here, that with two gates, the situation is not desperate. With only ONE left? THAT would be a race. Roy really has zero choice anyway. With Durkon vamped, The LG returning to full strength and Team Evil en route, detonating the Gate is the least dangerous option. Otherwise, it's just time for a full retreat, as The OOTS is too out-gunned at the moment to make a difference.

[Pheldagriff]

they can blow up girads gate, defeat xykon at kragoors gate and then re-seal the other rifts some time later when resurrected durkon and v are epic-level

[Chantelune]

Real question here is : Can the Order afford to NOT destroy this gate ?

The LG is on their heels, TE on the move (they don't know that yet, but are expecting it as proved by 880 and Hinjo might tell them any minute now), V is MIA and Durkon just got killed.

They're in no shape to take on both LG and LE, even if they manage to regroup with V. Unless LG and TE somehow neutralize each other enough that what remains of the order can finish the survivors, I don't see much room for victory. And if they want Xykon to move on the last Gate, they need to make sure this one can't be used for the ritual.

The Gate need to go boom. If not, Xykon will claim it and if he does, he will have no reason to go to Kraagor's Gate, will fortify the place again with mummies or worst to defend it, cast a cloister on the place and do his ritual.

[ThatNickGuy]

I have to wonder if the destruction of Soon's gate happened the way it did because it was Soon's gate specifically or because the other gates were destroyed. Let me explain.

So far as we know, there were no negative effects to destroying the other two gates. Explosions, yes, but no giant ominous gate hovering in the sky.

So, going back to my original question: do you guys think Soon gate's destruction after effect related to that gate specifically or the gates as a whole?

[Olinser]

I have to wonder if the destruction of Soon's gate happened the way it did because it was Soon's gate specifically or because the other gates were destroyed. Let me explain.

So far as we know, there were no negative effects to destroying the other two gates. Explosions, yes, but no giant ominous gate hovering in the sky.

So, going back to my original question: do you guys think Soon gate's destruction after effect related to that gate specifically or the gates as a whole?

Well, keep in mind that the ominous giant purple hole hovering in the sky was only there MONTHS after the destruction of the Gate. I don't believe we were shown either of the other Gate locations other than at the time of their destruction.

[factotum]

Well, keep in mind that the ominous giant purple hole hovering in the sky was only there MONTHS after the destruction of the Gate.

Redcloak makes it clear in #545 that the rift has been expanding gradually since the destruction of the gate, so you're right--immediately after it was destroyed there would have been nothing much to see, and we haven't seen the sites of Lirian's and Dorukan's gates since their destruction. So, not enough evidence. It seems reasonable to assume that the rifts and the gates which seal them all work in pretty much the same way, though, given they were all created by the same people.

[KillingAScarab]

The Rift over Gobbotopia has become enormous and I'm fairly sure it won't be long before other people besides Blackwing start noticing that there's another world inside there. We've also lost track of the Rifts in Lirian' Forest and under the remains of Dorukan's castle as well, both of which must be exceedingly large by now.They might be large. We don't know. As you have stated, we lost track of them. Soon's rift is the only one we know a great deal about.


The Rifts in Lirian's Forest and in Redmountain may actually be even larger than the Azure City one - remember initially how it was small enough to fit in a gemstone? Now it's easily the size of the city, if not larger.Actually, Soon's rift was not inside of the gemstone.


The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

Hopefully, that clears the issue up.

[SavageWombat]

The fact that the Giant knows all this about the gates suggests to me that it will be an important point. Maybe the "lock" to Girard's gate isn't in the same place as the rift?

[Flame of Anor]

Frankly, Girard's Gate being blown up seems THE ONLY predictable outcome

And that's exactly why it won't happen. :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

Of course the Gate will go BOOM.

Elan would be the first to get the dramatic trope here, that with two gates, the situation is not desperate. With only ONE left? THAT would be a race. Roy really has zero choice anyway. With Durkon vamped, The LG returning to full strength and Team Evil en route, detonating the Gate is the least dangerous option. Otherwise, it's just time for a full retreat, as The OOTS is too out-gunned at the moment to make a difference.

Inaccurate. It will go KRACKAKOOM.

(Which is to say that I don't think that reality will be doomed if another gate is destroyed. The world survived for time enough for the Order of the Scribble to become epic and find all the gates, and the Snarl seems to have collapsed back into a planet or something else anyways. The destruction of one more gate may well lead to another huge rift, but it won't lead to reality itself unraveling, and the Order doesn't have reason to think that it will, either. It'll just bring them a step closer to the brink of disaster.)

[Shred-Bot]

Can the Order afford to destroy it? Let's see... Girard seems conniving enough to have a "you break it, you buy it!" policy in place. So no, the Order can't afford it.

/rimshot

[nonamearisto]

Redcloak did hint at the possibility of the remaining gates keeping the snarl in, when he was torturing O-Chul. If Girard's gate blows up, the rift over Azure City might get larger, possibly even posing a threat to all those living there.

[exenia]

Without much hard data on the rifts, I had simply assumed that the one over Azure City expanded to be SO HUUUGE due to the additional strain of the other gates being destroyed. Could the violent destruction of Girard's gate could tear the other 3 open farther, or leave a rift so large it consumes several nearby kingdoms? Think of the original rifts like a loose thread in your clothes, and these new ones as the hole left behind by yanking on that thread. Each exploded gate is another pull on that same thread.

I -don't- believe the Azure City rift was this size before being sealed. Its presence would have been common knowledge to half the world.

RC's curiosity in #545 that the Snarl was absent really bothered me too. Maybe it's still contained, but it still killed Kraagor despite partial containment. Could it be busy tearing up the lands by Lirian or Dorukan's rift? Could the OOTSverse already be so dangerously weakened that popping another gate would leave the Dwarven lands the only inhabitable place left in the world?