revealed prophecy?

[Red Lantern]

How many people knew about the prophecy of belkar's death and didn;t roy just reveal it? If belkar knows he's going to die and knews roy knew about it and was even looking forward to it, whoah, that could cause some problems.

I wonder of knowing about the prophecy will get belkar killed, making it a self fufillign prophecy.

[hamishspence]

Haley knows:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

but I don't recall anyone else in the Order being told.

[KillingAScarab]

It seemed to me Roy worded that vaguely enough he could have been referring to either the prophecy that Belkar will die ("I shouldn't wait for some prophecy") or the "Yes" to Belkar being responsible for the death of Roy ("I should finish you off myself before your stupid antics really DO get one of us killed!") or Miko or Windstriker or the Oracle. Belkar and Haley (also Celia and Mr. Scruffy) don't remember what happened in the Sunken Valley. Roy and Haley are talking about two different things when discussing the Mark of Justice, though Haley learns the "Yes" has been fulfilled. I don't think Belkar will suspect anything just yet, but if he ever does learn Roy knows of a prophecy about Belkar dying... it will be interesting.

[Zmeoaice]

It seemed to me Roy worded that vaguely enough he could have been referring to either the prophecy that Belkar will die ("I shouldn't wait for some prophecy") or the "Yes" to Belkar being responsible for the death of Roy ("I should finish you off myself before your stupid antics really DO get one of us killed!") or Miko or Windstriker or the Oracle.

Or Vaarsuvius. And Belkar already killed the Oracle (and he also "killed" Miko and Windstriker)

But you do have a point, Roy could backtrack on his statement and refer to the previous prophecy. The oracle didn't say that Belkar would only kill one of them.

[martianmister]

Haley knows:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

but I don't recall anyone else in the Order being told.

I don't think so. She didn't know about Roy's seeing them and what happened at the Oracle's tower till the 3rd and 6th panels of #666. She probably thinks that "pointing Belkar at bad guys till he die" is Roy's current plan, hence her "do you really think we can end this...in just seven weeks?" comment.

[Secris]

I think it's unlikely, given the outrageous stress of the situation and Belkar being barely alive, that he'll pick up on it. But it is certainly possible. But with tensions running so high, it is quite possible that it could lead to a confrontation if Belkar picks up on it. Unfortunately for him, he can't really do anything about it in his current state. Too bad... I'd love to see a deathmatch between Belkar and Roy, that would be intense.

[eaglewingz]

Given that the comic titles often work on multiple levels, I'm thinking that Belkar very well may have "gotten the message" about the prophecy.
Also I sort of see him in the last panel looking at Roy like "What'd you say"?

[Rorrik]

I don't think so. She didn't know about Roy's seeing them and what happened at the Oracle's tower till the 3rd and 6th panels of #666. She probably thinks that "pointing Belkar at bad guys till he die" is Roy's current plan, hence her "do you really think we can end this...in just seven weeks?" comment.

That's a valid way to read it. I personally think that Haley was smart enough to pick up on what he was saying.

[Red Lantern]

Given that the comic titles often work on multiple levels, I'm thinking that Belkar very well may have "gotten the message" about the prophecy.
Also I sort of see him in the last panel looking at Roy like "What'd you say"?

Hmm, possibly correct. I'd seen belkar's look at roy as kind of a "Now aren't you ashamed of yourself?" but you could be right, or we both could.

[notthephonz]

How many people knew about the prophecy of belkar's death and didn;t roy just reveal it? If belkar knows he's going to die and knews roy knew about it and was even looking forward to it, whoah, that could cause some problems.

I wonder of knowing about the prophecy will get belkar killed, making it a self fufillign prophecy.

I was just thinking about that. In #329 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the oracle says, "...I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to let slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything." Emphasis mine, of course.

In #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), Roy finds out about the prophecy anyway because he bypasses the Memory Charm. So he has knowledge that the oracle didn't mean for him to have, and it might influence the future.

Or does he? Now that I re-read #572, it appears to me that the reason Roy retains the knowledge about Belkar's death is because the oracle went into prophecy mode, not because he bypassed the Memory Charm as Roy assumes. Roy would have remembered that information anyway, wouldn't he?

I think that if the oracle deliberately went into prophecy mode, he must have wanted Roy to remember that information (even if that wasn't the case during #329), and therefore it won't somehow have an unintended effect on the future.

[theNater]

I was just thinking about that. In #329 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the oracle says, "...I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to let slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything." Emphasis mine, of course.

In #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), Roy finds out about the prophecy anyway because he bypasses the Memory Charm. So he has knowledge that the oracle didn't mean for him to have, and it might influence the future.

Or does he? Now that I re-read #572, it appears to me that the reason Roy retains the knowledge about Belkar's death is because the oracle went into prophecy mode, not because he bypassed the Memory Charm as Roy assumes. Roy would have remembered that information anyway, wouldn't he?

I think that if the oracle deliberately went into prophecy mode, he must have wanted Roy to remember that information (even if that wasn't the case during #329), and therefore it won't somehow have an unintended effect on the future.
The oracle did intend for Roy to remember the prophecy; he says that explicitly. However, Roy also remembers events that occurred in the Valley apart from the prophecy. In #666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), he tells Haley that he saw Belkar kill the oracle, and that the oracle was resurrected. It is unclear whether the oracle intended Roy to retain those other memories, or even knew that he would.

[The_Tentacle]

I was just thinking about that. In #329 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the oracle says, "...I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to let slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything." Emphasis mine, of course.

In #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), Roy finds out about the prophecy anyway because he bypasses the Memory Charm. So he has knowledge that the oracle didn't mean for him to have, and it might influence the future.

Or does he? Now that I re-read #572, it appears to me that the reason Roy retains the knowledge about Belkar's death is because the oracle went into prophecy mode, not because he bypassed the Memory Charm as Roy assumes. Roy would have remembered that information anyway, wouldn't he?

I think that if the oracle deliberately went into prophecy mode, he must have wanted Roy to remember that information (even if that wasn't the case during #329), and therefore it won't somehow have an unintended effect on the future.

I, personally, think that the Oracle did know that Roy would remember everything, and so said some misleading information out of prophecy mode. He is only forced to tell the truth in prophecy (at least that's my theory). But anyway, the Oracle bypassed the memory charm on purpose. I mean, how hard is it to look into the future and notice that "Oh! If I do this, the nature of my valley will be known!" The Oracle isn't dumb enough to not take such precautions.

[Kish]

He is only forced to tell the truth in prophecy (at least that's my theory).
So...what prevents him from faking the green glowies with an illusion wand?

[Secris]

So...what prevents him from faking the green glowies with an illusion wand?

It's bad for business. I'm not saying the The_Tentacle is right or not, but if he runs around pretending to use his gift and telling people random lies, he's not going to be in business for long.

[CrispyCriminal]

The way I read it, it seemed like belkar could interpret it as the prophecy he knew. He doesn't know Roy knew about the Oracle, and thus would see the mention as his first prophecy about Roy or Suvie being potentially killed by his actions.

He also doesn't know that Roy knows about him betting on his life back when he took the ring of jumping.

[Roland Itiative]

I didn't notice the possibility of Belkar interpreting Roy to be talking about the "will I kill any of them?" prophecy before, but it makes perfect sense.

[Kish]

It's bad for business. I'm not saying the The_Tentacle is right or not, but if he runs around pretending to use his gift and telling people random lies, he's not going to be in business for long.
That would be an argument for nothing he claims to be a prophecy being a lie. Which, lest there be any confusion, I believe is the case.

It's not an argument for the distinction The_Tentacle makes. How does anyone who argues for the green glowies meaning guaranteed truth while nothing else the Oracle says is guaranteed true, justify the distinction?

[Secris]

That would be an argument for nothing he claims to be a prophecy being a lie. Which, lest there be any confusion, I believe is the case.

It's not an argument for the distinction The_Tentacle makes. How does anyone who argues for the green glowies meaning guaranteed truth while nothing else the Oracle says is guaranteed true, justify the distinction?

He is quite the stickler for finding loopholes in what people say so as to be as vague or useless as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to hear him say that, if called on it, he never gave a guarantee of prophetic vision when he isn't performing the ritual. To me, that would seem completely in character for that little *******.

[Kish]

He is quite the stickler for finding loopholes in what people say so as to be as vague or useless as possible.
Yeah, like when he told Eugene that the sorcerer who had killed his master went by Xykon.

Or like when he told Haley something that led directly to her getting her voice back.

Or like when he's going to tell a druid, "Yes, she is cheating on you with your animal companion," even though it will get him torn apart.

Why will this meme not die? You'd have actually been accurate if you'd said, "He is evidently only mostly, not completely, above giving useless answers, because he once said Xykon was In His Throne Room."

[Red Lantern]

The irony about the oracle is that the ONE time he seemed to want to be truly helpful roy loaded on so many conditions to the question that the oracle had to give a less than very useful answer in order to meet them.

Makes you wonder if the oracle realized his habit of giving misleading answers had bitten him in the tail and might change it in the future.

[teratorn]

I don't think that if he understood he is going to die it will lead to confrontation and resentment. He'll probably be more worried about what will happen to Mr Scruffy after that.

[Secris]

snip

I would hardly call Haley's specific. She (nor we) had any idea what it meant until it actually happened. Similar to V's arcane power question. And let's not forget his awesome one-word answers like "posthumously" or "yes" to Durkon and Belkar specifically. The example of Durkon's prophecy is especially prudent right now. He may technically be dead, but the oracle could have easily made it even a teensy bit clearer that Durkon might still arrive on his own two feet and with a thirst for blood. Obviously he wouldn't spell out everything, but it's still awfully vague.

In less words, sure, the Oracle can be helpful from time to time, but he can also dodge questions or be purposely misleading when he so chooses.

[Red Lantern]

I don't think that if he understood he is going to die it will lead to confrontation and resentment. He'll probably be more worried about what will happen to Mr Scruffy after that.

Good point. I still think he might be a wee bit P.O.ed to find out roy knew he was going to die and not only didn't warn him but was almost looking forward to it.

It also brings into doubt roy's aptitude as a leader.

[Domino Quartz]

It also brings into doubt roy's aptitude as a leader.

How does it?

[theNater]

I would hardly call Haley's specific. She (nor we) had any idea what it meant until it actually happened.
I just feel it's important to note that Haley is completely satisfied with her answer. The rest of your post is fair enough, but Haley's prophecy was exactly as specific as she needed it to be.

Carry on.

[Red Lantern]

How does it?
When you're a leader and you not only know a guy is going to buy it, but you actually kind of look forward to it you're not much of a leader. Also, roy has been extra fecally towards belkar. In azure city everyone else got their contracts torn up and were freed, but belkar didn't get to choose.

Honestly, I wouldn't blame belkar for resenting roy. a hell of a lot. I kinda hope that as belkar is dying roy feels as bad as he deserves to, and belkar says he'll forgive roy if roy will promise to take care of mr. scruffy.

[theNater]

In azure city everyone else got their contracts torn up and were freed, but belkar didn't get to choose.
I'm pretty sure that if Belkar had made a fuss about it, he'd have been allowed to stay in Azure City. Where he was about to go on trial for murdering that guard. Which is a capital offense in most D&D kingdoms.

But I admit I can't prove it.

[Kish]

When you're a leader and you not only know a guy is going to buy it, but you actually kind of look forward to it you're not much of a leader.
Roy avoided getting his afterlife downgraded by convincing a deva he was Belkar's prison warden, remember?

I agree that Roy's actions toward Belkar leave a lot to be desired, but in the opposite direction from you. The leash he's kept Belkar on has been woefully inadequate for years; surrendering goblins, novice barbarians, and Solt Lorkyurg died, and more recently a helpless prisoner was brutally tortured, because Roy was too squeamish to kill Belkar as soon as he realized one member of his party was a horrible monster. ("Unless you're telling me I should've just cut his throat while he sleeps?"--I will never understand why the deva's response wasn't, "No, there's no need for him to be asleep. You can give him as much warning as you feel is necessary.")

[KyrtFurey]

I think that if the oracle deliberately went into prophecy mode, he must have wanted Roy to remember that information (even if that wasn't the case during #329), and therefore it won't somehow have an unintended effect on the future.

In 329, the Oracle was being his snarky self. He already knew Belkar was going to kill him, so he was rubbing Belkars apparent lack of a future into the conversation.

In 572, he made it an official prophecy. Belkar will draw his last breath before the end of the year. Roy would have remembered it anyway.

[Red Lantern]

Roy avoided getting his afterlife downgraded by convincing a deva he was Belkar's prison warden, remember?

I agree that Roy's actions toward Belkar leave a lot to be desired, but in the opposite direction from you. The leash he's kept Belkar on has been woefully inadequate for years; surrendering goblins, novice barbarians, and Solt Lorkyurg died, and more recently a helpless prisoner was brutally tortured, because Roy was too squeamish to kill Belkar as soon as he realized one member of his party was a horrible monster. ("Unless you're telling me I should've just cut his throat while he sleeps?"--I will never understand why the deva's response wasn't, "No, there's no need for him to be asleep. You can give him as much warning as you feel is necessary.")

I seem to recall roy lopping heads off sleeping goblins, so he can't say much to belkar about him killing goblins.

[Mutant Sheep]

I seem to recall roy lopping heads off sleeping goblins, so he can't say much to belkar about him killing goblins.... Buh... Wubah... Wha?:smallconfused:

Oh wait, I should explain. Surrendering goblins being killed... Hostile Goblins put to sleep then killed.. Random gnome getting killed... Same situation?:smallconfused:

[Secris]

Indeed. Goblins are guilt-free kills to the OotS, which allows Rich to dissect alignment stuff even better.

[hamishspence]

Only evil goblins actually working for Xykon are "guilt-free".

The rest of the Order object loudly to Belkar's plan to kill, and harvest the kidneys of, a goblin child here, after he's given them the info they need.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html

Roy also makes it clear in Origin of PCs that he objects to killing Orcs unless there's a very good reason to- "it's convenient" is not enough for him.