Why Doesn't Belkar Wear Armor?

[Amaril]

This just occurred to me over lunch--why doesn't Belkar ever wear any armor? As a Ranger/Barbarian, he can easily wear leather and hide, which would offer some supplemental protection without major Dex bonus penalties. Is his Dex bonus really so unbelievably high that even these armor types restrict his movement and do more harm than good? I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm curious...

[Zmeoaice]

He might be wearing armor under his clothes.

[Amaril]

He might be wearing armor under his clothes.

I thought of that, but it seems like most characters in OOTS who wear armor have it clearly visible just because of the art...though there have been cases of characters carrying weapons that aren't visible on their standard designs when sheathed, so I guess this could be similar.

It would be pretty uncomfortable to wear leather armor under clothes, though, unless you put a lot of padding underneath it, which would make it more restrictive.

[NerdyKris]

He is wearing leather armor. Green leather armor. Just like Roy is wearing plate mail that happens to be blue, and Haley is wearing leather armor on her legs, despite them being sticks. And Thog is wearing purple plate armor.

[Amaril]

He is wearing leather armor. Green leather armor. Just like Roy is wearing plate mail that happens to be blue, and Haley is wearing leather armor on her legs, despite them being sticks. And Thog is wearing purple plate armor.

Actually, yeah, I didn't think of that.

Although I'm pretty sure Roy just wears a blue tabard over his armor. Same with Thog and everyone else who wears plate.

[Shred-Bot]

Plus anything heavier than light armor would mess up his 2-weapon fighting, if I remember correctly. (Not that the Giant cares about the details of Ranger 2-weapon fighting for this, but it makes sense)

And maybe he's got like a +5 polo shirt of stabbity doom or something.

[Kish]

This just occurred to me over lunch--why doesn't Belkar ever wear any armor? As a Ranger/Barbarian, he can easily wear leather and hide,
Hide armor is medium; his two-weapon fighting class features wouldn't work if he wore it. He could, depending on his Dexterity bonus (it's unlikely he has a Dexterity of 28 or higher...although Haley must be very close to the "no armor is useful anymore" range...), beneficially wear padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, or a chain shirt.

[SavageWombat]

If he were wearing mithral chain, it could be under his shirt and we've just never seen it.

[Amaril]

If he were wearing mithral chain, it could be under his shirt and we've just never seen it.

A halfling concealing a mithril chain shirt under clothes...sound familiar? :smallbiggrin:

[NerdyKris]

Actually, yeah, I didn't think of that.

Although I'm pretty sure Roy just wears a blue tabard over his armor. Same with Thog and everyone else who wears plate.

So you're willing to assume that Roy and Thog's armor is there despite having cloth over it, but not Belkar's, who can actually dye it green?

Belkar's wearing armor. You just can't see it the same way Haley's leather armor is just drawn as a shirt.

[Amaril]

So you're willing to assume that Roy and Thog's armor is there despite having cloth over it, but not Belkar's, who can actually dye it green?

Belkar's wearing armor. You just can't see it the same way Haley's leather armor is just drawn as a shirt.

With the way plate armor is drawn, you can see the shoulder pieces, despite the chestplate being covered by what I always assumed to be a tabard. If Belkar wears any armor, and the armor itself isn't dyed, it's not visible.

[Dr.Epic]

Vow of Poverty.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[Morty]

Vow of Poverty.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

Belkar's daggers are magical.

[Roland Itiative]

We've seen Roy manipulating his armour while not wearing it, it doesn't seem to be just a blue tabard over a metallic armour. Another evidence is Tarquin saying it's easier for him to have armour that can change its appearance magically, since he's always changing colours on his scheme. If he was just wearing tabards over mail, it would be simple to change colours. (too lazy to look for the specific comics here, but the first is soon after Roy is revived, and he's cleaning his chest piece, and the second is right after the LG engages the OotS in the current arc)

We've also seen Rich's drawing of warriors who clearly are wearing tabards (http://www.perfectduluthday.com/wp-content/uploads/comments/FantasyFantasy.png). Over coloured armour, no less.

As for Belkar's armour, I also assume he's wearing leather that's just too similar to regular clothes on a stick art style.

[NerdyKris]

Belkar's daggers are magical.

Not to mention his ring of jumping +20.

[Dr.Epic]

Belkar's daggers are magical.

Where is that ever stated?:smallconfused:


Not to mention his ring of jumping +20.

It's a non-magical magical ring.:smallwink:

[Morty]

Where is that ever stated?:smallconfused:


Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

[SavageWombat]

It's a non-magical magical ring.:smallwink:

Don't care if it's magical or not, it's still a 40,000 gp item.

[KillianHawkeye]

Belkar's alignment disqualifies him from taking any [Exalted] feats. Ever.

[martianmister]

We've also seen Rich's drawing of warriors who clearly are wearing tabards. Over coloured armour, no less.

OBJECTION! They are not drawn in standard OotS style. :smallbiggrin:

[MaximKat]

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

"Magic" there clearly applies to the repository (i.e. the Oracle), and not the daggers. /s

[rodneyAnonymous]

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

The Oracle may have meant he is a magical repository for daggers.

[SowZ]

Belkar's alignment disqualifies him from taking any [Exalted] feats. Ever.

Ninja'd.

It is reasonable that Belkar would be wearing Studded Leather armor. With a +2 Dex from being a halfling, a +1 Dex from level ups, and a possible +2 Dex item, he would only need a starting Dex of 15 to make a Chain Shirt a sub-optimal choice. He could be wearing a chain shirt under his clothes, but that seems less likely to have gone unmentioned/drawn.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Oracle may have meant he is a magical repository for daggers.
But the Oracle isn't magical. He's an Expert.

[Finagle]

Belkar was wearing armor in the arena. It just made him look sooo cute.

That's probably why he's not drawn that way typically.

[hamishspence]

Ninja'd.

It is reasonable that Belkar would be wearing Studded Leather armor.

This strip has a thief wearing what looks more like studded leather:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html

hence I think Belkar's armor probably isn't studded.

[Quarion Nailo]

Ninja'd.

It is reasonable that Belkar would be wearing Studded Leather armor. With a +2 Dex from being a halfling, a +1 Dex from level ups, and a possible +2 Dex item, he would only need a starting Dex of 15 to make a Chain Shirt a sub-optimal choice. He could be wearing a chain shirt under his clothes, but that seems less likely to have gone unmentioned/drawn.

A mithral shirt would give him a max dex bonus of +6 (at a dex of 22), which is probably slightly higher than his actual dex.

[SowZ]

This strip has a thief wearing what looks more like studded leather:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html

hence I think Belkar's armor probably isn't studded.

Good point. I was going by the assumption it could be under the clothes, though. And figured studded leather under the clothes would slip under the radar better, as I kinda think that mithral chain would have come up at some point. Especially with Belkar being a halfling.


A mithral shirt would give him a max dex bonus of +6 (at a dex of 22), which is probably slightly higher than his actual dex.

Couldn't it just be a normal chain shirt? Belkar could easily have a Dex below 18, and unless his Dex is 22, (I doubt it,) wouldn't a mithral breastplate be a better option?

[zimmerwald1915]

Good point. I was going by the assumption it could be under the clothes, though. And figured studded leather under the clothes would slip under the radar better, as I kinda think that mithral chain would have come up at some point. Especially with Belkar being a halfling.
Maybe it'll come up if the OOTS ever fights someone wielding a spear capable of skewering a wild boar :smallwink:

[Vinyadan]

I think Belkar doesn't wear armour. All other charachters wearing armour in the Order had something said about it: Durkon is loud, Roy received the sexual advance by Belkar, Haley bought a new one and talked about it with Belkar, Elan said something about it in the beginning and also said something about it interfering with his abilities later. Vaarsuvius probably doesn't wear any armour (although he did say something about how to wear a robe when talking with Malak).

So, there is a strange silence about Belkar's possible armour. But I doubt he wears any, however strange it is. Maybe the lead sheet was too heavy to pack in an armour?

[Tragak]

Maybe he feels that his legendary "flying halfling attacks" would be impacted by an armor check penalty on Jump checks?

[Amaril]

Good point. I was going by the assumption it could be under the clothes, though. And figured studded leather under the clothes would slip under the radar better, as I kinda think that mithral chain would have come up at some point. Especially with Belkar being a halfling.



Couldn't it just be a normal chain shirt? Belkar could easily have a Dex below 18, and unless his Dex is 22, (I doubt it,) wouldn't a mithral breastplate be a better option?

I'm pretty sure they specify somewhere that he has a very high Dex (not sure where). Considering how deadly he is in melee, and how low his Int and Wis scores seem to be (I'd put his Wis somewhere around 7), I think he must have exceptional Str, Con and Dex.

[MoleMage]

I'm pretty sure they specify somewhere that he has a very high Dex (not sure where). Considering how deadly he is in melee, and how low his Int and Wis scores seem to be (I'd put his Wis somewhere around 7), I think he must have exceptional Str, Con and Dex.

I think this is covered somewhere, but his Wis had to be precisely 9 in the early Dungeon of Dorukan comics; in order to use a Cure Serious Wounds scroll one needs a wisdom of 13 since it is a third level spell, and Owl's Wisdom gives a +4 bonus while Belkar normally has a wisdom penalty (9 or lower). Though upon further reflection, CSW is a 4th level Ranger spell, so he wouldn't be able to have used it even with Owl's Wisdom...hmm.

For reference, the comic in question is #58, while in #475, he admits his wisdom penalty.

Personally I give him average or better intelligence, he's fairly cunning in an evil sort of way; his charisma and wisdom are both poor though, so he could very well have exceptional str/dex/con (though with the number of attacks he gets and the str penalties for off-hand, he's better served by weapon finesse and just getting daggers that do extra damage).

[Kish]

I think this is covered somewhere, but his Wis had to be precisely 9
I do not understand how anyone can suggest Belkar has, or has at any point in the course of the comic had, a just-barely-below-average Wisdom.

Rich said very early (in reference to one of the strips with Trigak actually), "I bend the rules when it makes it funny. Accept." At the time, I thought the Owl's Wisdom joke was hilarious--although years of people using it to assert that Belkar's Wisdom is either 9 or 10 have unfortunately ruined it for me, to the point where now I devoutly wish Rich had never made it.

[Quarion Nailo]

Couldn't it just be a normal chain shirt? Belkar could easily have a Dex below 18, and unless his Dex is 22, (I doubt it,) wouldn't a mithral breastplate be a better option?

I doubt it. Belkar's dual-wields two daggers. While the ranger feat tree allows him to skirt the requirements for two weapon fighting/defense, to be marginally effective in combat he'd probably want to be using a high dex bonus in combination with weapon finesse. No one's really sure how he can put out significant amounts of damage at his level, though.

At the mid-high levels that OotS is at, they've had 3-4 ability boosts and have the cash to buy +4, maybe even +6 magic item ability boosts. Belkar's strength is good, but it's clearly not his primary stat -- Geekery put it at 14-18, and while it could have increased a bit since then, his STR isn't that great because of the halfling penalty.

Belkar's INT, WIS, and CHA are all mediocre at best. He certainly has no extraordinary mental attributes.

This leaves CON and DEX; I would bet that a halfling ranger focusing on dual-wielding light weapons would pump DEX over CON.

By this logic, it's not unreasonable to assume that Belkar put his best stat in DEX -- probably a 15 or 16ish. With the halfling dex bonus, that puts him at 17-18 -- a couple ability boosts and a +2 to +4 DEX item (both completely reasonable choices, though neither are explicitly stated) would put him in the neighborhood of 22-24.

Basically, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that DEX is [I]not Belkar's best ability, and it would be equally difficult to argue that a character of his level would not have invested anywhere between 4 to 8 points in his primary attribute.

[F.Harr]

Not being an expert in the game and having read the comics, I can say it's probably a combination of the following:

1. Mad tumbling and acrobatic skills.

2. Being small and thus hard to hit.

3. Being a macho $%^&#&-head.

4. Being naturally headless of consiquences.

5. Having the scriptwriter be at least a little bit on his side, so far.

6. I understand that 3-5 could be collapsed.

[Sutremaine]

Maybe he feels that his legendary "flying halfling attacks" would be impacted by an armor check penalty on Jump checks?
Mithral chain has no ACP.

[Bird]

It's because the Giant draws him the way he wants to draw him, I'm guessing.

[Domino Quartz]

But the Oracle isn't magical. He's an Expert.

I'm pretty sure he was half-joking. A magical dagger repository would be somewhere you store daggers, I would guess, and Belkar temporarily "stored" his daggers in the Oracle. Hence "temporary magic dagger repository."

[hamishspence]

I doubt it. Belkar's dual-wields two daggers. While the ranger feat tree allows him to skirt the requirements for [improved] two weapon fighting/defense, to be marginally effective in combat he'd probably want to be using a high dex bonus in combination with weapon finesse. No one's really sure how he can put out significant amounts of damage at his level, though.

He also throws them around a lot, and hits consistently.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which was nice when he sent that match Miko's way.

[hamishspence]

Given that (in the Kickstarter strip) he exhibits considerable jumping ability, way before when he would have gotten that Ring of Jumping, maybe Str is his best stat, and maybe he has something like Brutal Throw (from Complete Adventurer, allows you to use Str instead of Dex on To Hit rolls for thrown weapons) which would explain his accuracy with those thrown daggers.

Still doesn't explain him having apparently high damage though.

[Snails]

He could be wearing magical Bracers of Armor. Those would not show on a stick figure.

Really, any light armor could be worn under a shirt, and we could not tell from just a stick drawing.

[Flame of Anor]

Although I'm pretty sure Roy just wears a blue tabard over his armor.

Doesn't look like it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html)

[Kish]

Ah, yes. As the exchange in Start of Darkness went,
:mitd: Why are you called Greenhilt?
:roy: ...Because I wear blue armor.

No wait, that was a different character.

[Lvl45DM!]

"Hand me my leather armour Roy. Its the one that says sexy shoeless god of war"

[rewinn]

Belkar wears Schrödinger's Armor....No-one has seen it, so it both exists and does not exist.:smalltongue:

[SavageWombat]

Belkar wears Schrödinger's Armor....No-one has seen it, so it both exists and does not exist.:smalltongue:

I've known some characters with that armor. Of course, I just called it "cheating"...

[dps]

I'm pretty sure he was half-joking. A magical dagger repository would be somewhere you store daggers, I would guess, and Belkar temporarily "stored" his daggers in the Oracle. Hence "temporary magic dagger repository."

The question isn't whether or not that statement was half-joking. The question is whether the adjective "magical" was meant to modify the noun "repository" or whether it was meant to modify the noun "daggers".

[F.Harr]

Belkar wears Schrödinger's Armor....No-one has seen it, so it both exists and does not exist.:smalltongue:

I like that answer.

[Kish]

The question isn't whether or not that statement was half-joking. The question is whether the adjective "magical" was meant to modify the noun "repository" or whether it was meant to modify the noun "daggers".
You realize that this debate is addressing the question of whether Belkar has the Exalted feat Vow of Poverty.

[gorocz]

A halfling concealing a mithril chain shirt under clothes...sound familiar? :smallbiggrin:

You just blew my mind. The next time he fights anyone with a spear, I expect Belkar to be stabbed in an end-of-a-strip cliffhanger, only to have him reveal he has a mithral chain shirt he wears under clothes (and unfortunately forgot tu put it on this morning).



Couldn't it just be a normal chain shirt? Belkar could easily have a Dex below 18, and unless his Dex is 22, (I doubt it,) wouldn't a mithral breastplate be a better option?
Now we're getting to the min-max ends of the D&D community. As stated multiple times by The Giant, characters in OotS do not min-max or build their characters around one idea (apart from the ocassional half-ogre) or "play" 100% optimally...

[AdmiralCheez]

I just assumed Belkar doesn't wear armor because he considers himself too badass for protective gear.

[dps]

You realize that this debate is addressing the question of whether Belkar has the Exalted feat Vow of Poverty.

Yeah, but I've seen debates about the "temporary magical dagger repository" statement in other contexts.

BTW, I kind of tend to agree with you about the Owl's Wisdom joke.

[SowZ]

Given that (in the Kickstarter strip) he exhibits considerable jumping ability, way before when he would have gotten that Ring of Jumping, maybe Str is his best stat, and maybe he has something like Brutal Throw (from Complete Adventurer, allows you to use Str instead of Dex on To Hit rolls for thrown weapons) which would explain his accuracy with those thrown daggers.

Still doesn't explain him having apparently high damage though.

The Strength explains away some of the high damage.

[Quarion Nailo]

The Strength explains away some of the high damage.

Let's do some math. His daggers are both small and light weapons, so the damage would be 1d3+his STR modifier+whatever magic enhancements they have.

To take the theoretical upper bound, Belkar's STR can't really be much greater than 22ish (though this insane scenario requires a 18 base STR, 2 ability adjustments, and a +4 magic item), which is a +6 modifier. If his daggers are +3 or so (they haven't displayed any enhancements like flaming), then he's dealing 1d3+6+3=10-12 damage with his main hand and 1d3+3+3=7-9 damage with his off-hand. And this is an extreme example.

Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253978) puts his strength, more reasonably, at 14-18. This puts our range at 6-8 for his main hand and 5-7 for his off-hand for 14 STR, or 8-10 and 6-8 for 18 STR. If he drops six attacks per round (http://puu.sh/2kj11), that's 33-45 damage at 14 STR and 42-54 damage at 18 STR. Not too shabby, but not exceptional. His damage output is entirely dependent on hitting many of his attacks, and he can only attack 6 times as a full attack. If he rages, his damage ranges increase by 9 on both sides.

Of course, a lot of these dps calculations are dependent on the assumption that his daggers are +3 or so; specifically, 18 points of damage come specifically from the enchantment. This is over half of his total damage output on the lowest possible end of his STR, so take these with a grain of salt.

Finally, I'd like to apologize to the Giant for trying to shoehorn his characters and story into D&D's fairly restrictive format. I can't help it, I'm just one of those numbers guys.

[SowZ]

Let's do some math. His daggers are both small and light weapons, so the damage would be 1d3+his STR modifier+whatever magic enhancements they have.

To take the theoretical upper bound, Belkar's STR can't really be much greater than 22ish (though this insane scenario requires a 18 base STR, 2 ability adjustments, and a +4 magic item), which is a +6 modifier. If his daggers are +3 or so (they haven't displayed any enhancements like flaming), then he's dealing 1d3+6+3=10-12 damage with his main hand and 1d3+3+3=7-9 damage with his off-hand. And this is an extreme example.

Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253978) puts his strength, more reasonably, at 14-18. This puts our range at 6-8 for his main hand and 5-7 for his off-hand for 14 STR, or 8-10 and 6-8 for 18 STR. If he drops six attacks per round (http://puu.sh/2kj11), that's 33-45 damage at 14 STR and 42-54 damage at 18 STR. Not too shabby, but not exceptional. His damage output is entirely dependent on hitting many of his attacks, and he can only attack 6 times as a full attack. If he rages, his damage ranges increase by 9 on both sides.

Of course, a lot of these dps calculations are dependent on the assumption that his daggers are +3 or so; specifically, 18 points of damage come specifically from the enchantment. This is over half of his total damage output on the lowest possible end of his STR, so take these with a grain of salt.

Finally, I'd like to apologize to the Giant for trying to shoehorn his characters and story into D&D's fairly restrictive format. I can't help it, I'm just one of those numbers guys.

22 Str is in his rage. We don't see artistic evidence of the rage, but that doesn't mean he doesn't go into it sometimes. He likes to jump/pounce a lot. He could have battlejump. Leap attack, too. Point is, it is perfectly possible to explain the damage he deals if we make Belkar a more optimized character than most. Most of the things he one shots on the ground are super weak, and the rest could be accounted to criticals. What if he has Keen daggers?

If we are talking theoretically, there are plenty of ways to get such a damage output. We shouldn't say, "No, he is lower op then that, so what we see doesn't work by the numbers." Not if his numbers display a higher op. We should say, "What he is capable of displays a higher op, so that is what the comic supports."

[Quarion Nailo]

22 Str is in his rage. We don't see artistic evidence of the rage, but that doesn't mean he doesn't go into it sometimes. He likes to jump/pounce a lot. He could have battlejump. Leap attack, too. Point is, it is perfectly possible to explain the damage he deals if we make Belkar a more optimized character than most. Most of the things he one shots on the ground are super weak, and the rest could be accounted to criticals. What if he has Keen daggers?

If we are talking theoretically, there are plenty of ways to get such a damage output. We shouldn't say, "No, he is lower op then that, so what we see doesn't work by the numbers." Not if his numbers display a higher op. We should say, "What he is capable of displays a higher op, so that is what the comic supports."

I never said that he had 22 STR base, just that that's the maximum he could possibly hope to have. Realistically, he has 14-18 STR base and 18-22 STR in a rage. His damage output is far from insignificant -- it's not exceptionally high, but he definitely isn't pumping out anywhere as much damage as Roy is, or an equivalent-level fighter. I think that Belkar's damage output is just high enough to explain most of his kills: the only enemies he really one-shots are goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)or low-level NPCs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html).

He takes out Nale in six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) or (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) hits (that we see on-panel), but Nale was already wounded from the saw trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html). If you throw in a crit or two here and there, it's entirely plausible that Belkar could drop Nale in so many attacks, especially considering Nale's build (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

In the end, Belkar is not nearly as gimped of a front-line character as some people make him out to be, though he is only effective in a very narrow range of constraints (able to full attack, able to hit all of his attacks).

[Cavenskull]

Why doesn't Belkar wear armor? His body is so small, it has a bigger to-hit penalty than his cat does.

[SavageWombat]

Why doesn't Belkar wear armor? His body is so small, it has a bigger to-hit penalty than his cat does.

Well his head is technically also a vital organ, and it's the same size. Of course, it's probably harder to damage, being a magical silver weapon.

[Stormlock]

Pretty sure if Belkar's skull were silver he'd weigh more than 30 lbs. Silver is 10 times as dense as water. I think the strip can be explained by the fact that Belkar's skull is a wooden/garlic weapon instead.

As for Belkar's combat effectiveness, I just chalk it up to him having exceptionally good stats and a lot of lucky rolls. If Miko can beat Redcloak, I don't see why Belkar can't dish out damage like a half ogre dual wielding bastard swords.

[Kish]

If Belkar's head is partly made of garlic, he has a lot of nerve complainin' about humans smelling bad.

Not that that's news exactly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Belkar--wooden head--I think this needs to be brought up in the "Real Killer of Durkon" thread.:smallbiggrin:

[SavageWombat]

I still don't see the issue with Miko beating Redcloak. They were comparable level, and she's a melee specialist fighting in melee against a primary spellcaster with no melee spells prepared.

I know other people love arguing about "class tiers", but those appraisals don't ever seem to have applied to OotS.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah, and paladins are better at dealing with primary spell-casters, especially an evil cleric, than a mundane warrior. Seemed fine to me.

[Stormlock]

Except they weren't comparable levels. And Redcloak is wearing a god damned (LITERALLY) artifact and who knows what other epic trinkets. And it wasn't a boxing match. Miko wouldn't stand a chance against 1d4+1 huge fiendish snakes, let alone his cheesy houseruled elementals. Redcloak could have ended the fight with a single spell. Tsukiko was a more credible threat.

And if your argument is 'but in the comic warriors don't suck' than Belkar doesn't wear armor because he's so awesome it's irrelevant. His daggers do 5d4 damage instead of 1d3, and he has a +12 dodge AC for being a ranger. Alternately he just power attacks for his entire BAB every swing and rolls nothing but 20's while his enemies roll 1's. Take your pick. It boils down to the fact that Belkar (along with Miko and many other characters) is inexplicably more effective than he ought to be for the sake of the narrative.

[Procyonpi]

Do we know for sure that he doesn't? Maybe he just wears a shirt over it?

[SavageWombat]

Except they weren't comparable levels. And Redcloak is wearing a god damned (LITERALLY) artifact and who knows what other epic trinkets. And it wasn't a boxing match. Miko wouldn't stand a chance against 1d4+1 huge fiendish snakes, let alone his cheesy houseruled elementals. Redcloak could have ended the fight with a single spell. Tsukiko was a more credible threat.

We don't know they weren't - personally, my read was that Miko was a few levels higher that the Order, and her build as determined could have had her as high as 16th level (BAB +15). And Redcloak was definitely not any higher level than that at that point. I'm also pretty sure he has no "epic trinkets" as a character no higher than 15th-16th level.

Secondly, if I'm Miko and standing 5' from a cleric who's attempting to Summon Monsters, I make mincemeat out of him while he's trying to cast a full round spell. And Redcloak knew that, I'd think.


And if your argument is 'but in the comic warriors don't suck' than Belkar doesn't wear armor because he's so awesome it's irrelevant. His daggers do 5d4 damage instead of 1d3, and he has a +12 dodge AC for being a ranger. Alternately he just power attacks for his entire BAB every swing and rolls nothing but 20's while his enemies roll 1's. Take your pick. It boils down to the fact that Belkar (along with Miko and many other characters) is inexplicably more effective than he ought to be for the sake of the narrative.

The only reason some people think "warriors suck against spellcasters" is that when a power-gamer controls the terms of engagement (and that's what the spellcasters are good at) he tends to win. And nobody in this comic shows any sign of power-gaming. At all.

Under the circumstances as shown, Redcloak was poorly prepared for battle vs. an opponent with awesome saves. His best move at that point would probably have been Word of Recall, honestly.

Belkar and Miko are not inexplicably more effective than they "ought to be", because you're assuming a game style that has never been demonstrated in the comic. It's one thing to ask where Belkar is getting his bonus damage, but it's another to assume that Redcloak should beat everyone just because he's a primary spellcaster.

[Stormlock]

Your arguments would apply equally well if Redcloak had done nothing but memorized various metamagic'd forms of cure light wounds. Casting a spell he's cast before and not whiffing his concentration check is not power gaming. And it's not like that's his only spell. He's got 8 different levels of slots memorized, I'm sure he's got SOMETHING (quickened summon monsters? blade barrier? air walk? ethereal jaunt? righteous might? deeper darkness? darkness? meld into stone? giant vermin? obscuring mist? I suppose every single one of those spells is only for power gamers) to defend himself from melee attacks from a human that can't see in the dark, walk through walls, or do anything particularly effectively aside from make saving throws and make full attacks on unarmed and unarmored targets.

There are two logical conclusions to the fight: Miko has dice that roll stupidly well, or Redcloak has no armor, no magic items, and memorizes spells based on what would be least likely to be useful, ever. Either way, it's rigged in Miko's favour. If Redcloak played half as well as her, he'd have stomped her into the ground. Just like V would have stomped Xykon, the order would have stomped Miko, Thog would have stomped Roy, etc.

Redcloak should beat Miko because he's a primary spellcaster carrying around an artifact chumming it up with an epic level lich and commanding an ARMY. His resources are a lot more significant than a paladin/monk (who is probably ECL 12-13 with an ineffective dual class vs a 15-16 cleric considering he had 8th level spell slots for Azure City) that thinks sleeping in a bed is ostentatious. Miko even landing more than one or two hits a round is pretty silly. Hell, she doesn't even scratch him in their fight, he's just suddenly on his knees in the next strip with zero explanation.

I swear, Xykon could show up and start casting Heightened Enlarged Still Silent Acid Splash at Roy for a whopping 1d3 per round while taking power attacks to the face and people would try to defend it as just not being optimized. Redcloak lost the fight because it would be boring to have him win all the time, especially the same way. No matter how much it makes sense. I don't know why people seem to think this is some sort of grave sin that can't be admitted. Monks are ineffective. So are rangers (especially halfing barbarian rangers that don't use ranged weapons or spells). Rich wanted cool monks and rangers in the story with level parity, so he fudged the rules and/or plot. The end.

[SavageWombat]

Honestly, you're only supporting my point as far as I'm concerned. Situation doesn't matter, characterization doesn't matter - Redcloak is a "primary spellcaster" who should therefore automatically kick the ass of any "ineffective dual class".

He is a cleric with one major artifact (there goes all his gold-per-level) that doesn't do ANYTHING apart from eternal youth, disease immunity, and plot knowledge as far as we've seen. Lets not forget that he's a goblin, which wrecks him stat-wise compared to everyone else. She's a high level paladin with monk levels - ergo nigh-unbeatable saving throws - and what appears to be an incredibly fortunate set of stat rolls. We also KNOW by the Giant's own word that she was bedecked with magic items, because they lost power when she lost her paladinhood.

You can make your own assumptions about respective power all you like, but since we know Rich isn't interested in the stats of the characters in any way that doesn't relate to the story, your assumptions don't seem to be relevant to the discussion.

This is getting too far off the subject of Belkar's armor anyway. Summary - it doesn't really matter what he does or does not wear, since as long as it's light it doesn't change his defined abilities anyway. Character builds are not important to the story - only characterization is.

[Quarion Nailo]

Except they weren't comparable levels. And Redcloak is wearing a god damned (LITERALLY) artifact and who knows what other epic trinkets. And it wasn't a boxing match. Miko wouldn't stand a chance against 1d4+1 huge fiendish snakes, let alone his cheesy houseruled elementals. Redcloak could have ended the fight with a single spell. Tsukiko was a more credible threat.

And if your argument is 'but in the comic warriors don't suck' than Belkar doesn't wear armor because he's so awesome it's irrelevant. His daggers do 5d4 damage instead of 1d3, and he has a +12 dodge AC for being a ranger. Alternately he just power attacks for his entire BAB every swing and rolls nothing but 20's while his enemies roll 1's. Take your pick. It boils down to the fact that Belkar (along with Miko and many other characters) is inexplicably more effective than he ought to be for the sake of the narrative.

You know, I thought so too, but then I actually did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14922664&postcount=56) the math (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14926941&postcount=58). Belkar is not 'inexplicably effective', he is just more effective than you think a horribly-optimized halfling barbarian/ranger should be.

[SoC175]

There are two logical conclusions to the fight: Miko has dice that roll stupidly well,And that's it. Same dice she used to fight and capture the OotS (as the Giant's scenario had her hitting tertiary attacks that normally fall into the "hope for a 20" chance to actually hit anything near your level).

[SavageWombat]

And that's it. Same dice she used to fight and capture the OotS (as the Giant's scenario had her hitting tertiary attacks that normally fall into the "hope for a 20" chance to actually hit anything near your level).

When I play a character with an attack bonus of about +20, I hit things with the tertiary attack all the time, especially people who haven't been concentrating on maximizing their AC.

So does Belkar, apparently. Maybe that's why he doesn't wear visible armor.

[SoC175]

When I play a character with an attack bonus of about +20, I hit things with the tertiary attack all the time, especially people who haven't been concentrating on maximizing their AC.

So does Belkar, apparently. Maybe that's why he doesn't wear visible armor.When you are reliably hitting enemies with your attacks at -10 your DM is doing something wrong.

[Kish]

When you are reliably hitting enemies with your attacks at -10 your DM is doing something wrong.
Whereas I would say that if third and fourth iterative attacks are useless, there's something wrong either in what the DM is doing or in the game design.

[SavageWombat]

When you are reliably hitting enemies with your attacks at -10 your DM is doing something wrong.

1. I am the DM. Players should fear full attacks.
2. My players frequently fight things that are above or below their power level because there are, say, more than one of them.
3. In a campaign that's not a rigorous slave to CR, you frequently fight things that have a higher or lower AC than "appropriate for the level".
4. Do you even play 3rd ed? You sound like your experience is more 4th ed, but maybe that's just me.
5. I thought we were done with this since it's not relevant to Belkar and his armor anyway.

[137beth]

I just want to point out (even though this thread is really in hijack territory):

Redcloak should beat Miko because he's a primary spellcaster carrying around an artifact chumming it up with an epic level lich and commanding an ARMY.
This, and the fact that he was not expecting to fight a melee character by himself explains why he was poorly prepared for the fight. He prepared spells with the assumption that he would be fighting with Xykon/MitD/his army, not at close range against a paladin by himself. You really seem to be arguing against yourself. Such as
Either way, it's rigged in Miko's favour. Yea, we are all in agreement. It is rigged in Miko's favor because she is a melee character with a ton of magic items fighting a similar level unoptimized spellcaster who is unprepared at close range.

Anyways, I always assumed the clothes Belkar wears ARE his armor.

[Carl]

4. Do you even play 3rd ed? You sound like your experience is more 4th ed, but maybe that's just me.

I can't speak for 3rd, (OoTS is 3.5 btw), but the SRD's monster list doesn't have a lot of high level entries, (that i've found, i'm still digging through it), with AC's markedly below the mid 20's. Even for characters powergaming out their asses and optimised 5 ways to hell that's a 50/50 chance of a hit on a low BAB value for a tertiary attack. Given we know the giant doesn't super optimise normally, (the Ogre, Tarquin, and Miko appear to be exceptions), an on level threat should be hard to hit. If it's not a similarly un-optimised humanoid.

That's where Belkar wins out. Belkar's main fare we've seen is humanoids. That means heavy magic and material and Dex optimisation combinations aside the average AC of a humonid is likely to be in the low 20's or less. Maybe even the upper teens for very low optimisation builds. Belkars own attack modifier for tertiary attacks ranges from just over 10 to the mid teens. So humanoids are quite vulnerable, monsters not so much.

As for Redcloak vs Miko. That's easy. We've seen with roy and others that she can stun people with her kicks, even those with good fort saves, and that she can mix in attacks with her blades at the same time as that. Redcloak also didn't go i there with his buffs up. He probably doesn't have a great Dex modifier and clearly isn't wearing top end heavy armour. A stun would leave him with fairly bad AC and Miko with her high powered Swords and Smite attacks could inflict huge amounts of sword damage on him. Not to mention the very fact that she can do things like kick to use stunning fist or even kick at all is outside the core rules, which opens the option that she may be able to use all kinds of her monk abilities that she normally wouldn't.

[SowZ]

Miko was probably the highest level character in all of Azure City. Definitely the highest level in the Sapphire Guard, which seemed to be the elite soldiers of the kingdom. Miko could easily have been higher level than Redcloak.

[Carl]

Miko was probably the highest level character in all of Azure City. Definitely the highest level in the Sapphire Guard, which seemed to be the elite soldiers of the kingdom. Miko could easily have been higher level than Redcloak.

No guarantee and Class and Level Geekery pegs her at lower.

[Kish]

No guarantee and Class and Level Geekery pegs her at lower.
No. It doesn't. The + symbol is not meant to be ignored. It means "the number is a minimum, the maximum is infinity." When it says, "Monk 2+, Fallen Paladin 10+" that does not peg her at "Monk 2, Fallen Paladin 10."

[Morty]

I really don't get why it's so hard for people to accept that Belkar does not obey D&D rules. He's a halfling who murders people highly effectively with daggers. If the D&D rules don't support it, too bad for them. There's no reason why the comic should be limited by the awful design limitations of D&D 3rd edition. The same goes for the Redcloak vs. Miko fight. There's really no reason for the Giant's narrative to be dictated by the blunders the people designing D&D 3e made years ago.

[Carl]

@Kish, Given C&LG's eagle eye's i'm pretty sure if she was significantly above that range, (well except maybe if all her levels are in monk), someone would have spotted it. Whilst she could easily be somewhat higher i'm betting the upper teens or epic levels are well out of the question here given no one has apparently found any evidence of them.

[Kish]

...Uh. You do not seem to be understanding me here.

If Class and Level Geekery meant to say "approximately level 10 paladin and approximately level 2 monk," it would say that. If it meant to say, "She's somewhere between character level 12 and character level 15," it would say that. It says, "She is somewhere between character level 12 and character level infinity." That is what it means to say. Nothing else. You claimed that it pegged her as lower level than Redcloak, but that is factually incorrect. "If there was evidence of her being significantly higher level than 12 someone in that thread would have found it" is a double-edged sword; it's equally accurate to say "if there was evidence of her being lower level than 20 someone would have found it." Neither is claimed by the thread.

[Mike Havran]

Actually, we can peg Miko's maximum possible level, at least by the time she defeated the Order. She had 10-14 paladin levels (smite evil 3times/day), and 2 (a few) - 6 Monk levels (since she healed herself without Wholeness of Body).

[gorocz]

...Uh. You do not seem to be understanding me here.

If Class and Level Geekery meant to say "approximately level 10 paladin and approximately level 2 monk," it would say that. If it meant to say, "She's somewhere between character level 12 and character level 15," it would say that. It says, "She is somewhere between character level 12 and character level infinity." That is what it means to say. Nothing else. You claimed that it pegged her as lower level than Redcloak, but that is factually incorrect. "If there was evidence of her being significantly higher level than 12 someone in that thread would have found it" is a double-edged sword; it's equally accurate to say "if there was evidence of her being lower level than 20 someone would have found it." Neither is claimed by the thread.
I'd be pretty confident that if she was level infinity, she'd rather off Xykon than destroy the gate... Then again, she was pretty crazy :-)



Actually, we can peg Miko's maximum possible level, at least by the time she defeated the Order. She had 10-14 paladin levels (smite evil 3times/day), and 2 (a few) - 6 Monk levels (since she healed herself without Wholeness of Body).

It was never stated she couldn't do that more times. She could've chosen not to... The thing about Geekery is that they use definite proofs, not theories, presumptions or such...

[Kish]

Although if we could peg Miko at a maximum level of 20...that would still not support "she was lower level than Redcloak when she fought him." :smalltongue:

[SavageWombat]

Technically, we can peg her roughly between her minimum of 12 and a maximum somewhere near 16 - since she has 3 primary attacks per round, and not 4, she doesn't have a BAB of 16 or higher. So she couldn't be a 15th level paladin, or a 7th level monk, or any combo that exceeds +16.

[SowZ]

Technically, we can peg her roughly between her minimum of 12 and a maximum somewhere near 16 - since she has 3 primary attacks per round, and not 4, she doesn't have a BAB of 16 or higher. So she couldn't be a 15th level paladin, or a 7th level monk, or any combo that exceeds +16.

Monk 5/Paladin 12 would put her BAB at 15. Yeah, sub-optimal as all get out. But par for the course, since she multiclassed out AND took Monk initially because of events in her life and plot stuff. Which is how most people would probably actually do it.

[MoleMage]

Not to mention the very fact that she can do things like kick to use stunning fist or even kick at all is outside the core rules, which opens the option that she may be able to use all kinds of her monk abilities that she normally wouldn't.

Not true. Monks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) as per the class rules under Unarmed Strike can attack "with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet."

[SavageWombat]

Not true. Monks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) as per the class rules under Unarmed Strike can attack "with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet."

I always wanted to play a monk that used a pole-arm (like a naginata or something) so that they could take AoOs with the reach weapon, while using kicks to attack/defend anyone inside it's reach.