Core Cleric Versus "Core" Shugenja ?

[RedDragons]

How does the core cleric stack against the limited support that a Shugenja gets?

[Psyren]

Cleric is T1 even with just core.
Shugenja is T3 even if they have both core and CDiv.

...That's about it really.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Weaker. In the end more spells per day just fails compared to more spells known. To make it worse if a cleric never preps a cure spell, he has more than his party will ever need. Not true with the shuegenja at all.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. being locked into thematic "element" casting really hurts the Shugenja. The Cleric is more versatile, can be a combat beast right out of the get go. And even in core the Cleric has a few different, useful PrCs they could qualify for (Though not the horribly, horribly broken ones, admittedly), for the purposes of niche building.

The shugenja just... doesn't. It doesn't have the versatility. Locked into Elemental Theme casting. It has one good PrC available to it in that situation, the Void Disciple. One really crappy PrC available to it, the Maho-Tsukai (Which is terrible due to the horrible level of suckage that Maho spells are, usually strictly inferior to non-tainted spells or at best, directly equal to, and carry penalties for using them).

[WhatBigTeeth]

The best thing Shugenja has going for it is Hexer, which can be interesting, but still leaves it a toned-down sorcerer.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, to be fair to the shugenja, weaker does not necessarily mean worse here. If you want that full caster fun without making your party irrelevant, shuegenja is a good way to go. Also do they get lightning bolt? Hexer would be an awesome way to go.

[Psyren]

Also, to be fair to the shugenja, weaker does not necessarily mean worse here. If you want that full caster fun without making your party irrelevant, shuegenja is a good way to go. Also do they get lightning bolt? Hexer would be an awesome way to go.

They do, as a 4th-level spell.

I agree also that they're plenty strong enough to take on level-appropriate challenges, like all T3 classes are. Too often around here people equate "weaker than wizard" (or cleric, in this case) with "weak in general" and I'd hate to fall in that camp even accidentally.

[ZamielVanWeber]

We all kinda came off that way, which is why I interjected. Now I just need to decide what race to hexer as. Sweet.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. Yeah. I didn't mean it's "Terrible", I meant it was less versatile. If you wanted to play a Shugenja for flavor reasons or something else, yeah. It'll work. Though if you have a cleric in the party as well it gets to the point where you will probably (Not always, but often) have to start thinking of yourself as a "backup" character to the Cleric. Everything you can do, they can do. And they can do more than you can do.

Excepting a few niche things like being able to cast Fireball as a divine spell. Which might matter. But probably doesn't. If you were playing an all Divine Class party you might want that Shugenja over another cleric just for the source of elemental damage other than Holy or the occasional Fire/Cold. Depending on your playstyle and campaign of course.