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Leliel
2013-03-14, 09:10 PM
Anyway, I'm already planning out a God-Machine Chronicles...chronicle for the nWoD, and my idea for the primary angelic antagonist are the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse...updated to reflect modern fears and sensibilities.

Anyway, each one of them reflects a particular modern refinement of the original four of Conquest, War, Famine, and Death. I have Prejudice for Conquest ("they don't deserve to rule themselves!") and Greed for Famine ("Frack you, got my share"), but the other two evade me.

Any ideas, as well as any tips on how they would manifest when carrying out errands for the GM?

ArcturusV
2013-03-14, 09:13 PM
Instead of Death, probably Fear itself. People don't necessarily fear death anymore. Least not to the same extent. Most people are content with the idea that death is either the end of everything or that death is just a moment where they pass to a better place. There isn't really the fear that everyone is going to be dragged down to hell anymore. And most people are desensitized to death itself as a trauma.

But fear? Fear is rampant. Fear is a lot more potent a force in our lives.

War should probably remain as War. Or rather Violence or Destruction. It might not be formalized into War, but as a part of pure destruction and damage done to others.

awa
2013-03-14, 09:24 PM
huh had never heard of the conquest horse men im use to the pestilence version.

Any how after looking it up on wikipedia war was sometimes used to represent mass slaughter. the modern version of mass slaughter is genocide.

i don't agree that we are less afraid of death then ancient people.

I honestly cant even think of the words to describe how much i disagree with that statement.

I also don't believe you can really quantify how afraid the world is in any meaningful way and you certainly cant then compare it to the non-modorn world in any meaningful way.

Waker
2013-03-14, 09:28 PM
Curse you ArcturusV, I was gonna suggest Fear as a Horsemen. Despite all the progress that has been made scientifically and culturally, we are absolutely terrified of everything.
Deceit might make a decent Horsemen. His whole schtick could be manipulating information, then sit back and watch everyone panic.
Apathy could dull desire and leave everyone feeling just a little bleh.
Delusion could distract everyone by filling peoples heads with thoughts of how they are gonna be big movie stars and live the easy life.

THEChanger
2013-03-14, 09:37 PM
I disagree. Death should remain Death. For all our bravado, we humans are still very much afraid of his Skeletal Majesty. Though, perhaps he is not as skeletal anymore. What is the face of Death in the modern age?

As for War...perhaps Terrorism? Or the Dictatorship, though that's more Conquest's gig isn't it?

Yeah. I like Terrorism as a replacement for War. Both have that sort of senseless violence approach, but Terrorism is much more the idea of horrific violence in the modern era.

Then again, much more than what I just said might run afoul of various forum rules, so depending on where you would be hosting the game, perhaps not the best fit.

In any case, Greed wears a professionally tailored business suit, mirrored glasses, and is driven around in a fracking long limo by his chauffer Want, who is both blind and deaf and yet manages to never lose his way or crash. He is attended to by two thugs, Good Intentions and Privilege. However many times Good Intentions and Privilege are killed, so long as Greed lives they will be reborn. Yet Greed himself is stronger than either, and can crush the will and morality of mortals with his fist, cold as gold. Greed is ostentatious, large, and enjoys making a big deal of himself. When Greed moves, he does so with elaborate plans and grandiose gambits. Greed fancies himself intelligent beyond all human intelligence, and plays with his targets-much to the annoyance of the other Horsemen. Yet beneath his keen intellect and suave exterior, Greed desires above all the approval of others. After all, Greed always wants what Greed can not have.

Prejudice should appear non-threatening, when the players first see him. Perhaps he is a small man, in a plaid sweatervest and wire-rim glasses. Perpetually scowling, Prejudice always mutter obscenities and threats under his breath, but when confronted, always prostrates himself. Prejudice is a coward alone, but he seldom remains so for long. Prejudice spreads like a virus, and any whom he touches slowly becomes exactly like him. It is, after all, Prejudice's desire to make everything in the world just like him. To remove all difference, to remove all variation, to make everything one. Yet, always, the original Prejudice grows to hate his copies, and will exterminate them, claiming that they aren't perfect enough to share the world with him. However, the truth is that they are perfect copies of Prejudice-it is Prejudice's greatest secret that he hates himself as well as everything else.

Xefas
2013-03-14, 11:22 PM
I'm going to guess when you say "Modern", you mean "Modern First World Country from the perspective of the Lower Middle Class or higher".

After all, there are still many places in the modern world where famine is a serious issue. There are still people that starve to death even in developed countries.

But, taken from the, in quotes for brevity, "Modern" perspective, I don't even think Prejudice is a good fit. Despite bigotry of every kind still being a real and true problem in the "Modern" world, it has certainly lessened when compared to the prejudice exhibited by folks hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Instead of Conquest or Prejudice, I would do "Oppression". See, back in the day, people worried a lot about being conquered, enslaved, mass genocided, etc. That's not a huge deal from the "Modern" perspective - conquest doesn't happen all that much. I don't think France is all that worried about being invaded by Spain if there's some kind of diplomatic faux pas, for instance.

But there is certainly some concern about being oppressed. Think how many books and movies we have of a future in which humans have willingly traded their free will for luxury and convenience. The scariest hook being that such a fate isn't all that difficult to believe. That's what sets it apart, for me, from using Prejudice - in the "Modern" time, prejudice is declining, but this kind of future is looking more and more real. The horseman, Oppression, could symbolize that force. The creature that offers you happiness in exchange for obedience. He's the Orwellian scion, the Agents in the Matrix, the technological revolutionary who can bring about doomsday without a single evil intention. He'll feed the poor, and fix the lame, and set you up with a fancy augmented reality ubiquitous internet brain implant, and all he wants in return is for you to agree with all of his absolutely reasonable demands, or else he'll find someone more agreeable (and in just as much need - he's not actively harming anyone) for that load of bread, insulin, and bandwidth to be shipped to.

Leliel
2013-03-15, 12:10 AM
I'm going to guess when you say "Modern", you mean "Modern First World Country from the perspective of the Lower Middle Class or higher".

Pretty much. I was going to set it here in the good ol US of A, which is happily disaffected from the Places Where The Original Four Are Still Perfectly Adequate.

I want to put a sort of twisted spin on normal Judeo-Christianity to get that critical "alien, but not really" vibe of urban fantasy/horror.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-15, 12:38 AM
Yet beneath his keen intellect and suave exterior, Greed desires above all the approval of others. After all, Greed always wants what Greed can not have.

Did you come to this thread right after the FMA thread in Media Discussions too?:smalltongue:

For reference, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P4UGZgFMiQ#t=00m55s) is the part that I immediately thought of.

Xefas
2013-03-15, 12:50 AM
Pretty much. I was going to set it here in the good ol US of A, which is happily disaffected from the Places Where The Original Four Are Still Perfectly Adequate.

I want to put a sort of twisted spin on normal Judeo-Christianity to get that critical "alien, but not really" vibe of urban fantasy/horror.

Right, well, I think Oppression is good for that. I like your idea of Greed in place of Famine. I'm all for that one.

Instead of War, perhaps 'Violence'. Violence is the serial killer, rather than the warlord. He makes cubicle workers bring sawed-off shotguns in for casual friday, coaxes kids to shoot up their schools, gets people drunk after a bad break-up and puts a knife in their hand. He's not the fear of the Other - the faceless legion of people who don't look like you or speak your language. He's the fear of your loved ones, and your friends, and your neighbors. He isn't out for power, or money, or anything, really - he's just a sadist. He wants to abuse and terrify and hurt people.

Death, I think could be a poignant one to not change. It's Him and Taxes, forever. Alternatively, think about those doomsday (I heavily air-quote this one, but you can't see it) "scares". Y2K, the Mayan Apocalypse, movies like Cloverfield, War of the Worlds, and Armageddon. So, something like "Doomsday", or "Annihilation", or "Calamity". He isn't the creeping inevitability of death that you see coming every moment of your life - rather he's the sudden, impersonal, meaningless end that you don't see coming at all.

So, Oppression, Greed, Violence, and Calamity? That's my vote.

Chilingsworth
2013-03-15, 01:11 AM
@^ I was trying to come up with a good justification for Calamity, too. Nice.

Killer Angel
2013-03-15, 03:03 AM
Anyway, each one of them reflects a particular modern refinement of the original four of Conquest, War, Famine, and Death. I have Prejudice for Conquest ("they don't deserve to rule themselves!") and Greed for Famine ("Frack you, got my share"), but the other two evade me.

Why don't you follow Pratchett's route? Pollution was a nice replacement... :smallwink:

Ashtagon
2013-03-15, 03:14 AM
Why don't you follow Pratchett's route? Pollution was a nice replacement... :smallwink:

This. War, Famine, Death, and Pollution.

Oppression as a horseman? Really? The other four destroy all, with nothing nothing left. Oppression is merely unpleasantness, and offers some hope of turning the tables eventually. The horsemen represent total obliteration by forces greater than men.

Greed is the counterpoint to famine, because they represent an unequal distribution. Notably, Pratchett's Famine had invented nutrition-less fast food, such that you could simultaneously die of malnutrition and obesity. That's art.

Sidmen
2013-03-15, 03:16 AM
For something like this I am immediately reminded of the 4 horsemen from the show Supernatural. (Season 5, specifically Episodes 2, 14, 20, & 21). Their horsemen are War, Famine, Pestilence, & Death.

I tried to offer a synopsis, but I didn't find myself very eloquent. Needless to say, I thought their representation was very effective and modern.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-15, 07:06 AM
For something like this I am immediately reminded of the 4 horsemen from the show Supernatural. (Season 5, specifically Episodes 2, 14, 20, & 21). Their horsemen are War, Famine, Pestilence, & Death.

I tried to offer a synopsis, but I didn't find myself very eloquent. Needless to say, I thought their representation was very effective and modern.

Those four are the classic ones. I've only watched part of season one, so I don't know in what way they were adapted/modernized (care to explain?).

Lorsa
2013-03-15, 07:32 AM
If you want to know about 'classic' horsement of the Apocalypse, check out the Bible, in Revelations chapter 6. While only one is mentioned by name (Death) they are usually referred to as Conquest, War, Famine and Death. There's no pestilence horseman and referring to him as 'classic' is a bit misplaced. It is mentioned that pestilence is one of the ways with which they will destroy men but it is referred to them all not one in specific.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-15, 12:59 PM
If you want to know about 'classic' horsement of the Apocalypse, check out the Bible, in Revelations chapter 6. While only one is mentioned by name (Death) they are usually referred to as Conquest, War, Famine and Death. There's no pestilence horseman and referring to him as 'classic' is a bit misplaced. It is mentioned that pestilence is one of the ways with which they will destroy men but it is referred to them all not one in specific.

Whoops, you'd think I'd remember that after having just read this thread.:smallredface:

Dienekes
2013-03-15, 01:57 PM
I would go silly with this idea. Global Warming, Nuclear Power, Internet Piracy, and Death (because Death is just a classic).

I really just want the GM to say "Global Warming attacked you."

Ecalsneerg
2013-03-15, 02:04 PM
If you want to know about 'classic' horsement of the Apocalypse, check out the Bible, in Revelations chapter 6. While only one is mentioned by name (Death) they are usually referred to as Conquest, War, Famine and Death. There's no pestilence horseman and referring to him as 'classic' is a bit misplaced. It is mentioned that pestilence is one of the ways with which they will destroy men but it is referred to them all not one in specific.

I've always favoured using pestilence as part of Death's repertoire, personally.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-15, 04:08 PM
You could stick them on holy motorcycles (or tanks) instead of horses. And have SMGs and assault rifles instead of swords and bows.

I could totally see War wearing fatigues and driving a tank. Because it's the ubiquitous modern symbol of violent conflict. Bonus points if his tank rounds are made of a strange super-dense material which is extremely radioactive and harmful for the environment.

Death would totally have a gas mask over his skeletal face. And a yellowcake symbol somewhere on his person.

Famine might become Pandemic. But starvation is still widespread, and is still here in the developed world, so he could stick around as Famine. Definitely very thin and starving, with a head seemingly too big for his fragile frame.

NikitaDarkstar
2013-03-15, 04:28 PM
Sorry, haven't had the time to read the entire thread so if I repeat anything, sorry.

Anyway do the horsemen really NEED an update? What they represent is pretty damn timeless. War covers open war, acts of terrorism, and violence on all scale.

Death, is well, death. It never stops being relevant or feared (or at the very least something people want to avoid for as long as possible. There's a reason giving up once own life for a higher ideal is still considered the ultimate sacrifice).

Famine. Really. Take a look around you. Take a look at the 3rd world countries where it runs rampart, take a look at the fashion industry and beauty ideals in the world. And ironically, take a look at the fast food industry; which might not technically starve you to death, but it sure as heck starves you on the nutrients your body needs and still kills you. I'd say Famine is very much a factor still.

And I haven't heard of Conquest as a horseman, but rather Pestilence, which technically stands for all diseases. Which is arguably getting less and less relevant as a harbinger of doom. Which is why I liked Good Omens take there, Pestilence has been replaced with Pollution which makes a certain amount of sense to me. (And yes, I know Conquest is generally considered a classic one, but that always just struck me as odd. Conquest is parth of the whole War thing, so...?)

I'd also actually suggest reading Good Omens, it's take on the horsemen was quite interesting really.

Waker
2013-03-15, 04:35 PM
Anyway do the horsemen really NEED an update? What they represent is pretty damn timeless. War covers open war, acts of terrorism, and violence on all scale.

And I haven't heard of Conquest as a horseman, but rather Pestilence, which technically stands for all diseases. Which is arguably getting less and less relevant as a harbinger of doom. Which is why I liked Good Omens take there, Pestilence has been replaced with Pollution which makes a certain amount of sense to me.
Conquest was all about wars to take the territories of your neighbors. Battles for the sake of gain.
The second Horsemen War, Strife, Carnage whatever you call him was more about senseless violence. Just brother against brother, mobs in the street, tear it all down. Violence for the sake of violence.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-15, 04:52 PM
Conquest was all about wars to take the territories of your neighbors. Battles for the sake of gain.
The second Horsemen War, Strife, Carnage whatever you call him was more about senseless violence. Just brother against brother, mobs in the street, tear it all down. Violence for the sake of violence.

Conquest = Tank driver (Don't even try to tell me it's gone in the modern era. Read the news). Each side bears an ominous black star. He can call in airstrikes from a jet-black unmanned drone.

War/Carnage/Strife = Soldier in fatigues, with an AK in his hands a machete on his belt. Also bears an explosive vest (he, being a spirit, is immune to the blast). A red pentagram adorns his helmet.

Pestilence = Starving guy wearing a gas mask, extremely pale and thin. He is obviously rotting under his torn ragged clothes. Mosquitoes circle his body and constantly bleed him. Open bloody sores rend his skin and head, and a yellow-and-black "nuclear" symbol adorns his gas mask. He coughs blood at irregular intervals. Geiger-counters trigger around him, clicking furiously.

Death... not sure about him. Definitely still a skeleton.

Xefas
2013-03-15, 07:02 PM
Conquest is parth of the whole War thing, so...?

IIRC, Conquest is the "social character" of the Four Horsemen. He doesn't 'conquer' in a violent way. He conquers by being beautiful and charismatic and getting you to do what he wants. He's the evil politician that everyone willingly puts in office. He's the false prophet that the people follow because what he preaches is easy and agreeable, rather than the difficult, confusing path of righteousness.

War will invade a country, kill its soldiers, and subjugate its people. But the people will still be angry. They will still fight you. They may still revolt. They serve only through fear, if at all. Conquest poisons their culture, kills their gods, and makes them serve you out of love. Conquest is the king, and War is his general. Conquest is the hero, and War is his sword.

MukkTB
2013-03-15, 08:02 PM
War
We've still got this thing. It the coolest of the horsemen but its also probably the most likely way the apocalypse would come about. Nuclear war ect. We could easily bring about the end of the world with it.

Fear
This is a major component of modern life. The media feeds it all the time with scares about this or that. Fear itself is an appropriate avatar for our day and age. Fear has lead us to war in the past.

Greed
Greed is nothing new, however if you asked some dude what was wrong with the world today he would probably cite it. See all the distopian literature where corporate greed has taken over.

Slime/Pestilence/???
This one I'm not so sure about. However a biological disaster with some mega plague is one of the more probable end of the world scenarios facing us today.

Zelphas
2013-03-15, 08:40 PM
Maybe it's just me, but isn't fear kind of the reason why all of these Horsemen exist? We fear War because it destroys homes and families and brings Death. We fear Famine/Greed because it threatens to take away what we hold dear. We fear Pestilence/Pollution because it can take away the purpose and meaning of life long before it takes away life itself. And we fear Death because we don't know what comes next.

This may end up sounding like a dumb twist in a movie, but I feel like Fear would be a Fifth Horseman, behind the rest. He is awesomely powerful and seems impossible to defeat...as long as he is never seen. Fear's power comes from the unknown, from looking ahead into the future and seeing nothing but darkness.

A Tad Insane
2013-03-15, 09:09 PM
War-angry demon soldier, wearing a mix of O.C. and low rank soldier clothing, almost punk like, but definately not ironic

Disease- Haz mat suit with a gas mask that looks like a bird's skull, slimes oozing from it, massive amounts of zombie like gangreen

Conquest- Literally two faced, in a clean suit made from screaming faces

Famine- A bloated rich person, with grease, food and half finished 'meal' coming down its mouth like a dried up water fall of spoiled waste

Death- A skeletal humaniod, dress as an exectioner, with several torture implamints on a belt

I'm going for some one that would cause and enjoying causing their aspect

Gnoman
2013-03-16, 12:07 PM
IIRC, Conquest is the "social character" of the Four Horsemen. He doesn't 'conquer' in a violent way. He conquers by being beautiful and charismatic and getting you to do what he wants. He's the evil politician that everyone willingly puts in office. He's the false prophet that the people follow because what he preaches is easy and agreeable, rather than the difficult, confusing path of righteousness.

War will invade a country, kill its soldiers, and subjugate its people. But the people will still be angry. They will still fight you. They may still revolt. They serve only through fear, if at all. Conquest poisons their culture, kills their gods, and makes them serve you out of love. Conquest is the king, and War is his general. Conquest is the hero, and War is his sword.

This portion is intended solely for the purpose of identifying the archetypes and identity of the anthropomorphic personifications of abstract forces under discussion, and is not intended to promote or endorse any particular view.


In the most popular interpretations, this is pretty close. The first horseman is either Antichrist himself, wearing a mask of goodwill and pacifism, or a genuinely good person who's attempt to unify the world and lead it into a utopian age of peace and prosperity is doomed to failure because of Man's fallen nature.

The second horseman, often called "War", is often interpreted as more of a planetary "feeding frenzy" in which every man's sword is turned against every other, and there is no peace or brotherhood among men.

The third is either Plague or Famine. In either case, it is quite explicitly called down upon the poor, as the text calls out the price of common staples as skyrocketing, but the luxury goods are not affected. One excellent way to interpret this is a condemnation of the indifference of the upper classes toward the sufferings of the lower.

Finally, the fourth is explicitly named as Death, with Hell following behind. He bears no weapons, only the power to take life. He is the endpoint of the other three, and there is no escaping him. The more common translations, incidentally, cite the Sword, Famine, and Plague as his means, which may be an indirect naming of the other three.

Note that these are not simply a collection of vague forces, but each one leads to the next. The failed peaceful conquest leads to war, war leads to plague/famine, and all lead to death.

Given these archetypes, the easiest first-world update is to render them as Corruption, Anarchy, Apathy, and Death. Corrupt politicians buy power with lies and greased palms, which leads to anarchic riots and uprisings. These riots are ignored by those that have the means to remove themselves from them, and the result is large-scale death and destruction.

Jack of Spades
2013-03-16, 01:07 PM
I'm going to guess when you say "Modern", you mean "Modern First World Country from the perspective of the Lower Middle Class or higher".

After all, there are still many places in the modern world where famine is a serious issue. There are still people that starve to death even in developed countries.

Well, the arrival of the Horsemen isn't meant to just be more of the same. It's supposed to be a breaking down of the safeties that our society affords us. In ancient Rome when Revelations was written, Conquest War Famine and Death were not pressing issues because Rome had a large, mostly stable territory with a decent economy. The Horsemen's arrival is indicative of that empire and that economy breaking down such that we are reduced to those ancient fears. This of course being relative to the non-Roman (non-Chinese) world at the same time.

So, yeah, I'm with the folks who don't think an update is necessary. Modernized Horsemen just means that we don't fall as hard, because Horsemen based on modern societal problems need that society in order to exist. And not falling as hard takes the oomph out of the Horsemen. They're the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, not the Four Horsemen of Oooh Our Economy and Liberties Might Be Threatened For a While.

Blightedmarsh
2013-03-16, 02:51 PM
Famine: Harbinger the world eater.

Consider famine not as a lack of food but a lack of resources. In this case the apocalypse of famine would be the exhaustion of the natural world. Basically a force combining entropy and industry. So the oil runs out, the lights turn off, water turns foul and the soil is reduced to dust.

An avatar of famine would be like a walking wasteland. Living things would wither and die and organic matter and man made materials would be reduced to dust.

As an appearance an emaciated blind old man surrounded by a cloud of locusts.

Strife: Kaos The lord of misrule.

Strife represents the brake down of law and the social order. The root cause of strife is misrule; in the forms of injustice and corruption.

As an avatar conciser an ephemeral cold flame that spreads from person to person, inflaming acts of rage and destruction.


War: Vanguard the reaper of civilization.

War is the organized and systematic destruction of human life. It is the engine that drives human progress and industry. War takes good men and turns them into murderers and destroyers.

As an avatar what about a disembodied singularity level intelligence that takes human beings and twists them into war machines in a process somewhere between the borg, iron man (no not the marvel iron man, the anime one) and hellraiser.

Death: Omega The end of days.

Death represents the unknowable, the beyond, the uncontrollable. In a word it represents death.

As an idea I like the concept of the out of context error as well as the extinction level event. So things like super volcanoes, asteroids, as well as Gama ray bursts (novas).

As an avatar what about a black cloud figure specked with shifting stars. On its surface are oily reflections of things you can't quite make out and don't want to. Their is a pale ghostly face that is never the same for anyone looking at it and never the same twice.

Mewtarthio
2013-03-16, 10:56 PM
Famine. Really. Take a look around you. Take a look at the 3rd world countries where it runs rampart, take a look at the fashion industry and beauty ideals in the world. And ironically, take a look at the fast food industry; which might not technically starve you to death, but it sure as heck starves you on the nutrients your body needs and still kills you. I'd say Famine is very much a factor still.

You could reasonably treat Famine as representative of economic collapse, too. After all, his symbol is a scale, and his appearance is marked by inflated prices for basic foods.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-16, 11:41 PM
You could reasonably treat Famine as representative of economic collapse, too. After all, his symbol is a scale, and his appearance is marked by inflated prices for basic foods.

Epic Great Depression-style economic collapse is just one of the opening signs of Strife. The markets just fall flat on their faces, in defiance of all economic laws and theory, and no one's sure why. It forces all into abject, unmitigated poverty, and even the rich need to tighten their belts a little. This in addition to extreme storms and massive food-crop failures, locusts (plus other crop-destroying pests), drought, and livestock disease which lead to mass starvation.

Actually, the Depression could be part of the Final Judgement. The Horseman (Strife) shall grade humanity on how well it pulls through the Final Crash, things like how well men treat each other, whether they are truly charitable, and so on.

Leliel
2013-03-17, 12:11 AM
Famine: Harbinger the world eater.

Consider famine not as a lack of food but a lack of resources. In this case the apocalypse of famine would be the exhaustion of the natural world. Basically a force combining entropy and industry. So the oil runs out, the lights turn off, water turns foul and the soil is reduced to dust.

An avatar of famine would be like a walking wasteland. Living things would wither and die and organic matter and man made materials would be reduced to dust.

As an appearance an emaciated blind old man surrounded by a cloud of locusts.

Strife: Kaos The lord of misrule.

Strife represents the brake down of law and the social order. The root cause of strife is misrule; in the forms of injustice and corruption.

As an avatar conciser an ephemeral cold flame that spreads from person to person, inflaming acts of rage and destruction.


War: Vanguard the reaper of civilization.

War is the organized and systematic destruction of human life. It is the engine that drives human progress and industry. War takes good men and turns them into murderers and destroyers.

As an avatar what about a disembodied singularity level intelligence that takes human beings and twists them into war machines in a process somewhere between the borg, iron man (no not the marvel iron man, the anime one) and hellraiser.

Death: Omega The end of days.

Death represents the unknowable, the beyond, the uncontrollable. In a word it represents death.

As an idea I like the concept of the out of context error as well as the extinction level event. So things like super volcanoes, asteroids, as well as Gama ray bursts (novas).

As an avatar what about a black cloud figure specked with shifting stars. On its surface are oily reflections of things you can't quite make out and don't want to. Their is a pale ghostly face that is never the same for anyone looking at it and never the same twice.

Yeah, those would be great...

As cosmic entities. These versions are ultimately subordinates to the God-Machine, a cosmic supercomputer (kinda) that oversees the New World of Darkness, and may or may not be a replacement The Actual God designed to run things in his absence.

Needless to say, it's also rather amoral and, from the lore we know, obsessed with patterns and maintaining overall order, often at the expense of mortals...assuming they aren't cultists, who unlike Lovecraftian cultists, are truly symbiotic with the Machine. They maintain the Infrastructure that serves as its physical form and where it can manifest angels like the Four here, and in return it grants them supernatural abilities that could easily be Sufficiently Advanced Science.

There's an Actual Play floating around of private playtesters pursuing a time-traveling serial killer who turns out to have become a cultist-he wants to drive away his future wife before she dies as a direct result of their marriage, and the GM gives him targets and an MO.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-17, 02:56 PM
As cosmic entities. These versions are ultimately subordinates to the God-Machine,

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Leliel
2013-03-17, 05:15 PM
The two are not mutually exclusive.

...Good point

GolemsVoice
2013-03-17, 06:13 PM
I like what others said here, many great ideas. If you want to update them, (which might not be needed) you could tailor them to what corrupts and destroys modern society, since that is what people in a modern, western society will fear most.


Conquest: the idea that political power might be taken away from the people, and concentrated in a few select persons, or even one. Every accusation against "big business", every backroom deal, every black-ops killing, that's Conquest undermining the pillars of modern government by and for the peoplem turning it more into a puppet-state rune by shadow masters with enough money or power.

War: everyday danger, violence and killing, be it terrorism or school shootings. This is the sudden violence that breaks into our perceived safety and shatters it, until we can't feel safe anywhere. This is also children being abducted and horribly murdered, rape, all that. Violence that strikes anywhere, anytime, without protection, thus showing that the state and society cannot fullfil their obligation to protect those within. War is, of course, also just war.

Famine: this is poverty, economical collapse, loss. Whenever government cuts spending, whenever a business close, leaving thousands on the street, whenever whole industries leave to other shores, this is famine. The fear that the state and society can't, or won't, provide the means to survive.

Death: that's death, the end that nothing, no modern technology, no treatments and pills, no healthy lifestyle, nothing can save us from. Its also, as others said, the ultimate consequence of the other three horsemen.

All three of the horsemen besides death would transform society into a cruel mockery of itself. Conquest's extreme is a society that is totally controlled, where thousands die just to make a few dollars of profit, and undesirable individuals disappear or find themselves shunned by everyone. War's extreme is a society under arms, where everyone will msitrust everyone else, and everybody just waits to shoot at the slightest provocation. There's no more brotherhood or solidarity here, only frantic self-protection. Famine's extreme is a society that breaks down as everybody tries to secure his basic living, and those that can't just fall to the wayside to die. Nobody can spare any compassion, since in the end, everybody has to look out for himself.

enderlord99
2013-03-17, 11:21 PM
In my settings, I don't use the four horsemen.

I use thirteen, and with a specific hierarchy, with three tiers: one (strongest, and therefore the leader), three (slightly weaker; directly subservient to the first), and nine (weakest, yet still overwhelmingly powerful compared to mortals; three subservient to each of the mid-tier guys).


Death/DestructionIn general; leads all the others
DecayLeads the next three
EntropyIncludes, among other things, death by old age
PestilenceDisease, plague, etc.
FamineA severe lack of anything, not just food
War/Violence
Conquest[SIZE="1"]One country/city/etc. invading another
Strife/Anarchy/DissensionCivil war, including revolution; especially "free-for-all" type fights
OppressionOne group fighting another with separation that is not geographic
Disaster/CataclysmLeads the next three
TempestNatural disasters from the earth (hurricanes, volcanoes, etc.)
(Currently unnamed; need suggestions)Natural disasters from elsewhere (meteors becoming crashed into us, the sun exploding, etc.)
DoomUnnatural disasters; stuff we cause without meaning to (the ice caps melting, the ozone layer leaving, blowing ourselves up, etc.)

Obviously, they work alongside each-other most of the time, as their domains overlap a lot.

Not sure if that helps much, but I hope it gives people some ideas.

Scowling Dragon
2013-03-17, 11:24 PM
The four horsemen kinda don't work as they are imbalanced as equals.

Its more like: "The four stages of the apocalypse"

Disease kills crops, leading to famine, leading to war leading to death.

Mewtarthio
2013-03-18, 11:35 AM
The four horsemen kinda don't work as they are imbalanced as equals.

Its more like: "The four stages of the apocalypse"

Disease kills crops, leading to famine, leading to war leading to death.

The order is actually Conquest -> War -> Famine -> Death. Or, if you prefer, "Conquering empire overextends itself and collapses into widespread violence and chaos; the infrastructural disruption causes economic ruin and widespread famine, and then everyone dies."

Also, the horsemen are only the first four stages of the apocalypse. There are seven "seal" judgements in total (including the four horsemen), followed by seven trumpets and seven bowls. The seals are, by far, the most pleasant phase of the apocalypse.

Leliel
2013-03-18, 12:14 PM
The order is actually Conquest -> War -> Famine -> Death. Or, if you prefer, "Conquering empire overextends itself and collapses into widespread violence and chaos; the infrastructural disruption causes economic ruin and widespread famine, and then everyone dies."

Actually, that's precisely the interpretation I'm using.

The God-Machine basically uses the Four to destroy cultures it feels are becoming unacceptably powerful, monolithic, and decadent, wiping the slate clean and allowing new empires to rise from the ruins; "What rises must fall, and what falls may rise again", as Marco Singe (the Pain Prophet, basically the founder of one of the more important Machine cults, though he's dead by the time the chronicle begins). It is for this reason they are also known as the Dooms of Irem or the Heralds of Barbarians, for other empires they've helped crush (a pre-Egyptian empire where Mummies come from and ancient Greece, respectively).

The empire they have their sights set on this time? All of Western civilization. America is one of their targets, but also most of Europe, China, and certain parts of the Middle East (*cough*Saudi Arabia and Israel*cough*). The primary motive of the PCs will be to stop them, because frankly that's where they live.

If they are not stopped...well, what does a failing empire do when it senses the reaper coming? Try to regain some of its power. And what do empires do to gain power?....

randomhero00
2013-03-18, 12:43 PM
Conquest white horse, crown, bow, seal 1
War red horse, slaughter, greatsword, seal 2
Famine black horse, bread measuring scale, seal 3
Death pale horse, hell follows him, seal 4
of 7 seals


I am not christian so I was getting confused about what was interpretation vs how it was originally. So I looked it up. Thought I'd share and summarize for others who might not know either.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-18, 12:52 PM
The primary motive of the PCs will be to stop them, because frankly that's where they live.

For some reason I always get a huge kick out of any variation of this line.

Man on Fire
2013-03-18, 01:03 PM
I want to point out omething.
In the book of Revelations, there were Five Horsemen.


Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him

In other translations Hades gets replaced with Hull, but the thing is, that it's basically unofficial fifth horseman, loyally following death whenever he goes (think of him as a sidekick). And I think that, out of all horsemen, this one needs the biggest update, because while many people fear death, I doubt many still fear Hell so much.

Ashtagon
2013-03-18, 01:15 PM
In other translations Hades gets replaced with Hull, but the thing is, that it's basically unofficial fifth horseman, loyally following death whenever he goes (think of him as a sidekick). And I think that, out of all horsemen, this one needs the biggest update, because while many people fear death, I doubt many still fear Hell so much.

Wow. I always knew it was Grim up North (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OopNorth), but Hull? Really?

Leliel
2013-03-18, 02:34 PM
I want to point out omething.
In the book of Revelations, there were Five Horsemen.



In other translations Hades gets replaced with Hull, but the thing is, that it's basically unofficial fifth horseman, loyally following death whenever he goes (think of him as a sidekick). And I think that, out of all horsemen, this one needs the biggest update, because while many people fear death, I doubt many still fear Hell so much.

Actually, Geist (another WoD line) has you covered.

Each of the Horsemen in Sin-Eater (think a living being which has become symbiotically possessed by ghost-turned-Grim-Reaper) is the symbolic ruler of one of the Thresholds, the five general ways in which people die prematurely-Conquest rules over death by disease (a sickness either conquers the sick or is conquered by them), War over violent death (take a wild guess), Famine over deprivation (take another), Death over causes due to the natural world (the uncaring, amoral cycles of life), and Hades-or Chaos-over sheer bad luck (there is no underlying logic or cause in being killed by the whim of fate and probability, it just happens).

I'm only using the four, but I'm leaving Chaos as the overall controller of the covenant, it (unlike its fellows, it refuses to define a gender for itself) making sure that all plans proceed to the time table as much as it can, but also ensuring that random elements will give the world a fair chance-guess who they are?

Leliel
2013-03-19, 02:26 PM
Also: What I see in a more humanistic version of the Horsemen is also human responsibility for the things that they embody-the ambition of Conquest, the bloodlust of War, the greed of Famine, and the callousness of Death. Likewise, the facets of the Horsemen humans can understand are those emotions-Raguel (Conquest) is smug and condescending towards humans when he's not actively bullying them, Haniel (War) is a cheerful little psychopath who revels in destruction, Ariel (Famine) is all the worse stereotypes of Randians with a side of moral nihilism, and Azrael (Death) is completely ambivalent towards everything, including herself-there is only "what the Machine ordered" and "how do I carry it out in the most efficient manner possible".

I'm also considering adding the Fifth Horseman, Chaos, who is simultaneously the most sympathetic and the most amoral-it's Chaos, you can't really predict what it will do with certainty.

randomhero00
2013-03-19, 02:43 PM
I want to point out omething.
In the book of Revelations, there were Five Horsemen.



In other translations Hades gets replaced with Hull, but the thing is, that it's basically unofficial fifth horseman, loyally following death whenever he goes (think of him as a sidekick). And I think that, out of all horsemen, this one needs the biggest update, because while many people fear death, I doubt many still fear Hell so much.

Eh? Which translations are those (the one with the 5th horseman)? I'd be curious to read them.

I read them as you start to greed/lust after something, so there is conquest in trying to get it, then comes war when the other side has retributions, then comes famine when both sides have drained each other, and finally death and going to hell (hades follows behind him...) for giving into the weakness of man.

In other words, I think that "...Hades follows him," more as, death is the way to hades in this final sin. I.E. death is the portal to hades/hell. Which makes more sense if you read about the seven seals and bowls that it is related to.

Gnoman
2013-03-19, 08:32 PM
Eh? Which translations are those (the one with the 5th horseman)? I'd be curious to read them.


All versions have Death followed by another. THe only difference between translations is what that other is called. Some versions use "Hades", others "Hell,' and some simply refer to "the underworld." In none is that other said to be riding a horse, or even being an individual (in the loose sense that the Horsemen are individuals, as they're generally considered allegorical representations of much more abstract forces) in it's own right. That is pure interpretation.

Doorhandle
2013-03-19, 10:13 PM
I have little to add but that it would be remiss to talk about modernised horsemen and not link to this image. (http://keithwormwood.deviantart.com/art/The-Four-Horsemen-288245875)

RandomNPC
2013-03-21, 07:53 PM
The riders don't have much action time, only maybe the last quarter of the book, but read Good Omens. Totally inspired my War when the horsemen show up in any of my games. Pollution took over for Pestilence after they invented penicillin.