"Belkar causing death" prophecy [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

isoriveil

2013-03-14, 10:24 PM

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-14, 10:29 PM

But the Oracle predicted he would cause death of V.

No, the Oracle predicted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Belkar would cause the death of Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or the Oracle. The prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html). The other theories he wasn't really buying were a lame attempt to avoid Belkar killing him, which he apparently knew wouldn't work (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).

It is possible that he meant Belkar would kill more than one name on the list, but that is unlikely given the other dialog in that comic. ("And as for the elf..." and "...my prophecy HAS come true!")

wrybread

2013-03-14, 11:50 PM

Yes, I believe Word of the Giant is that the prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle. As in stabbed him with his weapons, making him the first and only cause of the Oracle's death. The Oracle was just grasping at straws to prevent Belkar from killing him, hence the way each suggestion as to how the prophecy had already been fulfilled got more and more tenuous.

That said, it's always possible that V will die in a way that could be traced back to Belkar; however, it's not really part of that prophecy and it's not definitely going to happen.

isoriveil

2013-03-15, 12:47 AM

That doesn't contradict the fact whatever Oracle said was true about other deaths, so his saying "As for the elf..." makes me await V's demise.

Zmeoaice

2013-03-15, 12:49 AM

Yes, I believe Word of the Giant is that the prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle. As in stabbed him with his weapons, making him the first and only cause of the Oracle's death. The Oracle was just grasping at straws to prevent Belkar from killing him, hence the way each suggestion as to how the prophecy had already been fulfilled got more and more tenuous.

You sure the oracle was trying to prevent Belkar from killing him?:smallwink:

SaintRidley

2013-03-15, 12:54 AM

That doesn't contradict the fact whatever Oracle said was true about other deaths, so his saying "As for the elf..." makes me await V's demise.

Yeah, following the pattern for the others, the Oracle's version of V's death would already have happened by that point and would probably have been the death of some of V's brain cells.

You're reading too far into it to see anything but the Oracle's death as what was meant by this answer.

Porthos

2013-03-15, 01:18 AM

Yeah, following the pattern for the others, the Oracle's version of V's death would already have happened by that point

One point I like to raise is that the 'deaths' got more and more ridiculous to the point where Windstrider wasn't even dead.

The explanation I like, and I will maintain it was what was going to happen until Rich says otherwise, is a parody of that famous scene from Return of the Jedi.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif: "As for the elf, he is about to make a deal with the proverbial you-know-what that will, from a certain point of view, lead to the death of Vaarsuvius and the birth of entirely different person.

And you are responsible for this beca-"

*everyone but Belkar is stunned at the pronouncement of the rise of Darth V*

:belkar:: WHAT!!! That was lame when a one-hit wonder tried it and it's even lamer when a hack writer tries to rip it off.

Scene proceeds as written.

Or something along those lines, with the 'From A Certain Point of View" being the showcase.

SaintRidley

2013-03-15, 02:12 AM

One point I like to raise is that the 'deaths' got more and more ridiculous to the point where Windstrider wasn't even dead.

That's what I like about the dead brain cells idea. It's pretty much exactly how V feels about Belkar (and Elan).

VanaGalen

2013-03-15, 07:31 AM

I'm also a bit worried that V appeared on that list at all. However, it doesn't mean the Oracle predicted his death.

As for the elf...

... it's (s)he who will cause your death, not the other way around.

..., you have been traveling with hir for over a year. Do you really think that time would have no effect on the time and conditions of hir death? You know, some sort of butterfly effect.

...yes, it's true (s)he isn't going to die anytime soon. But hey, you still have others dead, enjoy it!

...I just said it for fun, I have no idea how to end the sentence cause I know you're going to stab me before I have a chance to finish it.

All of the above are possible endings to what the Oracle said. I'm also a bit uneasy that V appeared on the list where all the others are dead, but what the Oracle said then definitely doesn't imply V's has to die soon (or that Belkar will have anything to do with that).

Edit: also, why do you say the Oracle was trying to prevent Belkar from stabbing him? If he really wanted to be safe, he could do the same thing he did when the other evil psychopath came (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). Instead, he booked clerics for res and took pains to set up whole kobold village in his peaceful valley. Unless he had some greater plan in mind that required such sacrifice, I say he simply wanted to mess up Belkar's mark of justice.

Kish

2013-03-15, 08:22 AM

That doesn't contradict the fact whatever Oracle said was true about other deaths,
Really? The Oracle wasn't buying it.

Manga Shoggoth

2013-03-15, 08:40 AM

One point I like to raise is that the 'deaths' got more and more ridiculous to the point where Windstrider wasn't even dead.

And all of them were possibilities that were discussed (to death?) in the forums. I always read them as nods to the forumites.

Kish

2013-03-15, 08:47 AM

And all of them were possibilities that were discussed (to death?) in the forums. I always read them as nods to the forumites.
Rich clarified a while ago that it's the other way around.

I.e., he had Belkar lend Roy the Ring of Jumping knowing people on the forum would speculate, thereby, that Belkar had "caused the death of" Roy (and so on). If he hadn't already been planning to have the Oracle make that claim, he would have just had Xykon fly the dragon closer to the tower and Roy wouldn't have needed the ring to jump onto the dragon.

Morty

2013-03-15, 08:48 AM

I imagine that if Belkar hadn't stabbed the Oracle, the finished 'prophecy' would have been something along the lines of "As for the elf, the stress of having to deal with you on a daily basis will cause him to die five years earlier than he otherwise would have".

Fish

2013-03-15, 09:18 AM

Unlikely in my view. Rich may have put "as for the elf..." so Belkar could interrupt something, showing his impatience. Rich may have planned dialogue to explain V, but trimmed it out for lack of space. Rich may have saved V for last because anything the Oracle said would have been a spoiler (to us, or to Roy). It would have ruined the gag because WE the readers would have known the Oracle was bluffing before Belkar did, and he wanted Belkar's stab to come as a surprise.

There are many reasons why V wasn't listed and not all of them are "OMG guyz Belkar kills V!!!!!1!"

Not impossible. Unlikely. Maybe V shows up late to the party and Belkar says "Oh no, vampire!" And kills V. But I doubt it.

Peelee

2013-03-15, 10:48 AM

So, I'm sure we can say that B was the cause of undeath for D. But the Oracle predicted he would cause death of V.
Could it be that V gets in a bad situation and gets heavy beating, but she would survive were D nearby for healing? So B would basically cause her death by causing absence of D.

I would like to take issue here with the statement that Belkar was the cause of undeath for Durkon. Malack (and more specifically, Malack's Vampirism) was the caus of undeath for Durkon. If you make the claim that Belkar was responsible, since the reason Durkon was down there was because of Belkar, it also follows that Haley was responsible for Durkon's (un)death because she loosed the Hellhound that led Belkar down there, and Elan is also responsible for not boosting her skills high enough, and of course the Draketooth clan as a whole is responsible for putting the door there in the first place, oh, and Shojo for assigning the Order to go find that Gate to begin with.

No. Malack, and Malack alone, is responsible for Durkon's life ending.

Bulldog Psion

2013-03-15, 11:13 AM

wrybread

2013-03-15, 04:19 PM

Just occurred to me that if accepting the definition of "death" to include Windstriker's being banished from this Plane, then V getting sent to that Plane of Ranch Dressing could count as "death." And you could probably trace that back to Belkar if you were creative enough (Yukyuk used arrows because he was Belkar's opposite, which V used to defeatZz'ditri to the point where the drow had to resort to Planar Shift).

Not saying this is what was intended, just further making the point that by the time you got down to Miko and Windstriker's deaths, the prophecy was so watered down so as to accomodate almost anything.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-15, 05:47 PM

VanaGalen

2013-03-15, 06:58 PM

I don't understand why anyone thinks the prophecy meant Belkar will cause the death of all those people. The idea that the "watered down" explanations were not actual descriptions of the prophecy being fulfilled seems simple to me.

Yes, the explanations were all rubbish. And Belkar didn't cause the death of any of them (except Oracle of course, which was sufficient to validate the prophecy).
However, Belkar or not, all the people on the list were dead (or rather gone from this world, that suits Windstriker better). That's why people are worried, because the Oracle also mentioned V when explaining why the others were killed. Belkar has nothing to do with it, but the fact that the Oracle did mention V in that context, could mean something bad for the elf.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-15, 07:20 PM

V was "gone" in the same sense as Windstriker, to the Plane of Ranch Dressing. Also, all the others were past-tense, why would V's be different?

rewinn

2013-03-15, 07:28 PM

137beth

2013-03-15, 10:42 PM

1. Without Belkar, OOTS would not be nearly so popular
2. If OOTS was not so popular, fewer people would read it
3. If the average OOTS reader uses (...I shan't say "wastes"...) five minutes three times a week reading OOTS, that's 750 minutes a year, more or less.
4. If you live to be 77 you experience about 40 million minutes, waking or sleeping.
5. About 53,000 readers using 750 minutes a year come out to about one lifetime GONE every year due to OOTS.
6. It's not fair to attribute every one of those live lost to Belkar; some must be tallied against Roy, some against Xkyon (?who will die for Haley?). OTOH there are probably a great many more than 53,000 readers of OOTS (only The Giant and his ISP know for sure!). In the multiyear run of OOTS, therefore, it is highly probably that Belkar has caused the death of a reader simply by being so awesome.

You win the thread.

But seriously, people who say the oracle's prophecy is anything other than the obvious don't understand what "or" means (or are intentionally ignoring it.) If I say "1+1=2 or 1+1=3 or 2+2=4", the entire statement is true, because at least one of the three clauses I made are correct. If I had used an and, it would be wrong. But Belkar used an OR. What happens to everyone else on the list is irrelevant.

dps

2013-03-17, 11:15 AM

But seriously, people who say the oracle's prophecy is anything other than the obvious don't understand what "or" means (or are intentionally ignoring it.) If I say "1+1=2 or 1+1=3 or 2+2=4", the entire statement is true, because at least one of the three clauses I made are correct. If I had used an and, it would be wrong. But Belkar used an OR. What happens to everyone else on the list is irrelevant.

Exactly.

The Oracle never predicted that Belkar would kill V. The question was if Belkar would be the cause of death of any of a list of beings that included V. Because of the way Belker worded the question, his being the cause of death of any of them was sufficient to fulfill the answer of "yes". Since the Oracle himself was on the list, and Belkar did kill him, that fulfills the prophecy. That the Oracle was raised afterwards doesn't change that.

VanaGalen

2013-03-17, 05:07 PM

Exactly.

The Oracle never predicted that Belkar would kill V. The question was if Belkar would be the cause of death of any of a list of beings that included V. Because of the way Belker worded the question, his being the cause of death of any of them was sufficient to fulfill the answer of "yes". Since the Oracle himself was on the list, and Belkar did kill him, that fulfills the prophecy. That the Oracle was raised afterwards doesn't change that.

Yes, I get the meaning of "or" (and other logical connectives too). The prophecy was fulfilled when kobold died, that's also clear.
However, what worries me is that V was mentioned at all in the refusal of Belkar's refund request.

For example, this sentence: "Person A was killed in action, person B died tragic death, person C is gone from this world forever and as for person D..." The sentence is not finished, we don't know what happens to D, but it's possible that his fate isn't particularly happy either, if he's mentioned as part of such group.

Adding to that the fact that many people (myself included) really love V, we're simply worried something might happen to hir.

Red Lantern

2013-03-17, 06:28 PM

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but if you want to get into semantics, as the oracle seems to:

Belkar asked if he would get to cause THE death of (List of characters)

Now the oracle was one of them, but technically belkar didn't cause THE death of the oracle, he caused A death of the oracle.

Likewise, if you believe belkar was responsible for roy falling off xykon's dragon, he again caused A death, not THE death, of roy.

Now since miko apparently isn't going to get raised, you could maybe say that belkar caused THE death of miko if you assume he was in any way responsible fior her death since it was THE death of miko, not A death.

Mutant Sheep

2013-03-17, 07:32 PM

Did you vote in The Election? Semantics about the word death in a world where it isn't permanent don't work because there isn't a standard for us to work with. Besides, if Belkar did say "Will I cause a death of", we'd all say that is terrible grammar.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-17, 07:33 PM

For example, this sentence: "Person A was killed in action, person B died tragic death, person C is gone from this world forever and as for person D..."

If the descriptions of the deaths (literal or otherwise) of A B and C were all past tense, why would you be worried about what happens to D in the future?

Kish

2013-03-17, 07:34 PM

Did you vote in The Election?
Thanks for coming up with a good example. I wanted to, but the entire idea that "cause the death of" means the one and only death left me spluttering.

Mutant Sheep

2013-03-17, 07:36 PM

Thanks for coming up with a good example. I wanted to, but the entire idea that "cause the death of" means the one and only death left me spluttering.

Hey, I'm spluttering worse than you ever could.:smallamused:

Also, I totally cribbed that from the last time this semantic discussion came up.:smallbiggrin:

Red Lantern

2013-03-17, 09:41 PM

it still seems like the kind of cheap trick the oracle would play, especially if he knew belkar was going to kill him later.

Kish

2013-03-18, 04:23 AM

What seems like the kind of cheap trick the Oracle would play? Belkar caused the death of one of the people on his list by stabbing him with his daggers. Belkar might very well feel cheated if he learned that the person he fulfilled his prophecy by killing got resurrected. Bizarrely, you're apparently willing to feel cheated on Belkar's behalf for the same reason. But that doesn't change the fact that Belkar's prophecy got fulfilled in the most literal way imaginable.

VanaGalen

2013-03-20, 11:09 AM

If the descriptions of the deaths (literal or otherwise) of A B and C were all past tense, why would you be worried about what happens to D in the future?

Well, it's the Oracle, present and past are not that much different for him. So it still might mean something bad for V.

I also noticed one thing recently. When the Oracle said "As for the elf..." he might have been going to say "you almost killed hir when you caused an arrow with deadly poison on it directed at the elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html)."

LuPuWei

2013-03-20, 03:00 PM

This could easily become another 6 degrees game- "6 Degrees of Causality Between Belkar and the Death of Any Character in the OotSverse"

Menas

2013-03-20, 03:05 PM

This could easily become another 6 degrees game- "6 Degrees of Causality Between Belkar and the Death of Any Character in the OotSverse"

Are you insinuating that Belkar is in fact a sadistic Kevin Bacon in disguise?

NZNinja

2013-03-20, 04:50 PM

"6 Degrees of Causality Between Belkar and the Death of Any Character in the OotSverse"

It shames me to want this.

Anyone want to start a database of every action that every character takes in every strip ever? Then a query should be able to generate a list of action chains that go back to Belkar - given the rather limited number of characters in the OotSverse, it should be possible to find a (very tenuous) causative chain to Belkar for almost any action...