What is O-Chul's dump stat?

[Aquatosic]

TV Tropes says it is Charisma, but he is a very charming person. Now I just want to say that I respect and love O-Chul, but hear me out, I think his dump stat is Int. He can dodge, he has good aim and he is ridiculously strong and durable, ruling out Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. His interactions with "Monster-san" show his wisdom, but being wise and being intelligent are two different things. An intelligent person would be able to analyze the Gordian knot and untie it eventually. A wise person would realize the solution is to just cut the knot in two.

[B. Dandelion]

TV Tropes says it is Charisma

I think TVTropes says Charisma because of O-Chul saying it is Charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

[rodneyAnonymous]

And his CHA is probably too low to cast spells.

[Flame of Anor]

I think TVTropes says Charisma because of O-Chul saying it is Charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

Funny how O-Chul's random lie accidentally turned out to be exactly on the mark.

[B. Dandelion]

Funny how O-Chul's random lie accidentally turned out to be exactly on the mark.

You're not the first person to say this, but I can't say I agree with the assessment. O-Chul said this:


Girard's Gate is protected by an elaborate maze, hidden with mighty illusions and sealed from all forms of magical intrusion. Only by answering the riddles within can one reach the center, but the answers are encoded in that diary that Xykon carries with him.

The first sentence was correct, but it was also an extremely reasonable guess. The second -- which is what Redcloak focuses on as important ("You're going to have to come up with a better story than "riddles"") -- was a wild shot in the dark that has thus far yet to materialize at all. We might see riddles eventually, so it could turn out that O-Chul accidentally guessed right, but thus far, his random lie has turned out to be pretty much exactly as accurate as you would realistically expect it to be. Which is to say, mostly wrong.

He also says nothing about the elaborate traps, or the fact that it was being guarded by an entire clan of illusionists. Saying O-Chul got it "exactly right" ignores what he got completely wrong, what he failed to guess at all, and focuses only on the first part of his guess in order to marvel at the crazy coincidence of O-Chul figuring an illusionist would probably hide his Gate inside of a maze.

[SaintRidley]

Saying O-Chul got it "exactly right" ignores what he got completely wrong, what he failed to guess at all, and focuses only on the first part of his guess in order to marvel at the crazy coincidence of O-Chul figuring an illusionist would probably hide his Gate inside of a maze.

With illusions, no less. Granted, an illusionist using illusions is is pretty far-fetched.

[zimmerwald1915]

And his CHA is probably too low to cast spells.
If this were Pathfinder, that would matter. But 3.5 Paladins use Wisdom to cast spells. That said, O-Chul might not have enough Paladin levels to cast spells.

[SowZ]

I would guess O-Chul has good Strength, Incredible Constitution, passable Dexterity, (good aim=high BAB,) decent Intelligence, (we do know he had the presence of mind and spell knowledge to record Xykon's spell list,) solid Wisdom, bad Charisma.

So; Con>Str>Wis>Int=Dex>Cha

My impression.

[Olinser]

I would guess O-Chul has good Strength, Incredible Constitution, passable Dexterity, (good aim=high BAB,) decent Intelligence, (we do know he had the presence of mind and spell knowledge to record Xykon's spell list,) solid Wisdom, bad Charisma.

So; Con>Str>Wis>Int=Dex>Cha

My impression.

I can't remember where the post was - but Rich stated that O-Chul has a Constitution of 25.

[LadyEowyn]

Another question on the topic of O-Chul - does he have a paladin animal? Miko had Windstriker, Hinjo has Argent, Lien has Razor, but I don't remember O-Chul having one. Is it general characteristic all Paladins have, or just an option?

[zimmerwald1915]

I can't remember where the post was - but Rich stated that O-Chul has a Constitution of 25.
It was in the commentary for War and XPs, and he said O-Chul has "a Constitution in the mid-twenties", which could mean anything from 22 to 28.


Another question on the topic of O-Chul - does he have a paladin animal? Miko had Windstriker, Hinjo has Argent, Lien has Razor, but I don't remember O-Chul having one. Is it general characteristic all Paladins have, or just an option?
It's a class feature all core, level 5 Paladins without alternate class features have.

[blueblade]

I would guess O-Chul has good Strength, Incredible Constitution, passable Dexterity, (good aim=high BAB,) decent Intelligence, (we do know he had the presence of mind and spell knowledge to record Xykon's spell list,) solid Wisdom, bad Charisma.

So; Con>Str>Wis>Int=Dex>Cha

My impression.

BAB is level dependant, and throwing stuff is more STR than DEX? I think Dex should be below average. Even with very good rolls, his 25 CON (if that's true) has to come from more than just a CHA of 6-8 (can't see it being lower than that).

[LadyEowyn]

It's a class feature all core, level 5 Paladins without alternate class features have.

Thanks!

O-Chul seems like he should be at least as high-level as Lien, so maybe he has an alternate feature?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thanks!

O-Chul seems like he should be at least as high-level as Lien, so maybe he has an alternate feature?
Or he has less than five Paladin levels, and the rest of his levels are in Fighter. He is a multiclass.

[ghoul-n]

Con is O-Chul's dump stat, and it's in mid-twenties.

[Rogar Demonblud]

IIRC (it's been a long time), CHA affects his divine grace saving throw bonus and his lay on hands healing ability.

We've never seen him use the second, so it gives you an idea of how low the CHA is.

[Fish]

Charisma has a low O-Chul.

[Petey7]

It is also worth noting that dump stats aren't always less than 10 (remember a score of 10 is considered average). I've seen D&D players roll well enough to have 13 as the score they use for their dump stat.

[JustWantedToSay]

I've seen D&D players roll well enough to have 13 as the score they use for their dump stat.

roll 4d6 drop lowest, I presume?

1.34% chance of that compared to 0.03% chance for straight 3d6.

Odds of having all 6 roles X+ for 4d6-1, and 3d6 respectively (%)
10+ 31.49 .. 5.96
11+ 15.22 .. 1.56
12+ 5.49 .. 0.28
13+ 1.34 .. 0.03

[Kish]

I don't think straight 3d6 is even listed as an optional method of stat generation anymore.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think straight 3d6 is even listed as an optional method of stat generation anymore.
Define "anymore". It was certainly listed as an optional method of stat generation in 2003.

[Kish]

If it's in the 3.5ed Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide, than I am misremembering. Been a while since I looked.

[zimmerwald1915]

If it's in the 3.5ed Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide, than I am misremembering. Been a while since I looked.
The sixth and seventh options for character generation in the 3.5 DMG, "Customized Average Characters" and "Random Average Characters" involve rolling 3d6 six times. They can be found on page 170.

EDIT: here's the text of each


Roll 3d6 six times and arrange scores as desired. This method produces characters more like average people but still allows customization. The player may reroll all scores if his ability modifiers total -3 or lower, or if he doesn't have any score of 12 or higher.


Roll 3d6 six times and place in order (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha). This is the strictest method. It frequently generates virtually unplayable characters, but it makes high scores very special. The player may reroll all scores if her ability modifiers total -3 or lower, or if she doesn't have any score of 12 or higher.

[Querzis]

To answer the original post, I'd actually bet his dexterity is even lower then his charisma (or maybe equal) his fighting style is very straightforward and its a pretty safe dump stat when you're always in plate armor.. For me, from the highest to lowest its : Con, Wis, Str, Int, Cha, Dex.

And yeah sure, they still say to use 3d6 but I never saw anyone actually use it. The only time we even tried we got one guy who had 3 16-18 while another had nothing above 12. If you got a group of around 5 people, you should realize pretty quickly that method is incredibly unfair.

[JustWantedToSay]

4d6-1d increases the average from 10.5 to 12.24 (so by 1/6th) but it barely reduces the deviation. So you're less likely to be weak compared to unrolled monsters, but you're almost as likely to be rather weak compared to other PCs.

Rolling 5d4-2points would still have the same min,max and average, but would result in more average rolls.

[zimmerwald1915]

And yeah sure, they still say to use 3d6 but I never saw anyone actually use it. The only time we even tried we got one guy who had 3 16-18 while another had nothing above 12. If you got a group of around 5 people, you should realize pretty quickly that method is incredibly unfair.
Yes, it is unfair. The OOTSverse, however, is a world that can produce characters like Roy, who seems to have no bad stats, and characters like Elan and V, who seem to have almost all bad stats. I don't think fairness is a criterion we should be using.

[Procyonpi]

O-Chul does not have a dump stat. He has a "merely Demigod" as opposed to "God" stat.





In all seriousness, he's said that it's charisma, and his INT probably isn't stellar. But my explanation is more fun.

[Olinser]

To answer the original post, I'd actually bet his dexterity is even lower then his charisma (or maybe equal) his fighting style is very straightforward and its a pretty safe dump stat when you're always in plate armor.. For me, from the highest to lowest its : Con, Wis, Str, Int, Cha, Dex.

And yeah sure, they still say to use 3d6 but I never saw anyone actually use it. The only time we even tried we got one guy who had 3 16-18 while another had nothing above 12. If you got a group of around 5 people, you should realize pretty quickly that method is incredibly unfair.

Yes... but there are ways around it.

3d6 is completely random and unfair if each person only rolls 1 character.

The 3 ways around it that I've used are:

1) Each person individually rolls up 5-10 characters (DM discretion) and picks one that they will use

2) If you have a group of 6 guys, roll up 30-60 full stat lines, and each player picks one that they will use for their character.

3) Rolls above 14+ are classified 'high', rolls 10-14 are classified 'mid', under 10 is considered 'low'. Using those rolls, you designate 2 high stats, 2 mid stats, and 2 low stats, and roll until you hit that category. You must accept the first roll. (i.e. if you pick Strength as your high stat, the first roll 15+ is your Strength number, likewise, if Charisma is you 'low' stat, you roll until you roll under a 10, that's now your Charisma number).

#3 produces the most balanced characters. #1 and #2 pretty much ensure an above-average (or at least average) character for each player.

[Olinser]

Yes, it is unfair. The OOTSverse, however, is a world that can produce characters like Roy, who seems to have no bad stats, and characters like Elan and V, who seem to have almost all bad stats. I don't think fairness is a criterion we should be using.

How do Elan and V have bad stats? Both have been stated to have 18 Charisma and 18 Intelligence at about level 9, respectively. That's pretty damn high. Elan also seems to have a fairly good Dex modifier. His Int is obviously fairly low - but he can cast level 5 Cleric spells, so his Wis has to be at least decent. V's Strength and Charisma are low, but I've never seen any evidence that V has anything other than average Wis, Dex and Con scores.

[Kish]

Elan cannot cast any cleric spells. He can cast bard spells, with Charisma.

[zimmerwald1915]

How do Elan and V have bad stats? Both have been stated to have 18 Charisma and 18 Intelligence at about level 9, respectively. That's pretty damn high. Elan also seems to have a fairly good Dex modifier. His Int is obviously fairly low - but he can cast level 5 Cleric spells, so his Wis has to be at least decent. V's Strength and Charisma are low, but I've never seen any evidence that V has anything other than average Wis, Dex and Con scores.
Do please note I said "almost", accounting for their one good score each :smallwink:

Elan's poor INT and WIS have come up so often they've graduated from running gags and become plot points. His STR is low enough that he had to prestige class out of Bard to have a shot at doing decent damage in melee. His DEX and CON are passable at best.

V's got known penalties to STR, CON, and CHA, has a WIS low enough to consider a literal deal with the Devil, and has a DEX low enough to reliably miss ranged touch attacks.

Contrast that to Roy, who seems to have bonuses to everything except possibly DEX, along with natural INT and STR both around or above 16, and you'll get my point, which is that stat generation in the OOTSverse cannot be fair, no matter the method used.

[Olinser]

Elan cannot cast any cleric spells. He can cast bard spells, with Charisma.

Ah, you're right, my bad, got confused.

But the point about him having 18 Charisma still stands. His Strength and Con are at least average, so that leaves him with:

Str - avg
Dex - avg (maybe a little above avg)
Int - below avg
Wis - ? (prob below avg)
Con - avg
Char - 18 (very high).

So he has 1 extremely high stat, 3 avgish stats, and 2 below avg stats. Not a fantastic stat line, but certainly not terrible.

[Kish]

So he has 1 extremely high stat, 3 avgish stats, and 2 below avg stats. Not a fantastic stat line, but certainly not terrible.
It becomes more accurate, and also looks worse, if you change that description to, "One extremely high, two terrible, three unknown-but-definitely-not-high."

Elan and Vaarsuvius have one 18 each and...otherwise pretty much bad to awful across the board. Roy, on the other hand, may or may not actually have an 18 in Strength or Constitution but does have good-to-amazing stats across the board.

[Olinser]

Do please note I said "almost", accounting for their one good score each :smallwink:

Elan's poor INT and WIS have come up so often they've graduated from running gags and become plot points. His STR is low enough that he had to prestige class out of Bard to have a shot at doing decent damage in melee. His DEX and CON are passable at best.

V's got known penalties to STR, CON, and CHA, has a WIS low enough to consider a literal deal with the Devil, and has a DEX low enough to reliably miss ranged touch attacks.

Contrast that to Roy, who seems to have bonuses to everything except possibly DEX, along with natural INT and STR both around or above 16, and you'll get my point, which is that stat generation in the OOTSverse cannot be fair, no matter the method used.

When does he reliably miss range touch attacks? The only time I've seen his Disintegrate actually miss (as opposed to fizzle or be resisted) was when he was firing at the Imp on the island (and he only missed 2 - well within range of a RNG), and when he was firing off his Dimensional Anchors - which were plot-critical misses, and even lampshaded by the Dragon.

As for his Wisdom... you're taking an isolated incident, where he made a bad call after he had literally gone without sleep (or trance, whatever you want to call it) for WEEKS, and was now in a situation where his mate and children are about to be basically condemned to an eternity of suffering, and think that projects onto his score? Come on man, you've got to have more than 1 bad choice to back it up.

[Carl]

His STR is low enough that he had to prestige class out of Bard to have a shot at doing decent damage in melee. His DEX and CON are passable at best.

I thought we had no stats info on Dashing Swordsmen, meaning we don't know if it uses his STR or DEX scores. He might (presumably), be getting extra damage from his CHA score via puns, but he's still stuck with a not spectacular attack roll from his Bard levels + low STR in that case. And i don't think we can get anything on his STR score from all those grapples haley keeps making on him, it's not like he's going to fight back :smallamused:. (sorry couldn't resist a terrible :elan: quality joke on the end).

[Kish]

I thought we had no stats info on Dashing Swordsmen

We have what Julio Scoundrel mentioned about it, which is much less than a full class writeup but isn't nothing. And he, at least, believed "allow you to substitute your Charisma bonus for your Strength bonus to damage" would be enough to sell the class. That's not an argument for Elan having high strength.

[Olinser]

It becomes more accurate, and also looks worse, if you change that description to, "One extremely high, two terrible, three unknown-but-definitely-not-high."

Elan and Vaarsuvius have one 18 each and...otherwise pretty much bad to awful across the board. Roy, on the other hand, may or may not actually have an 18 in Strength or Constitution but does have good-to-amazing stats across the board.

Sure, Roy has great stats, nobody is disputing that, but how do you go from having 3 average stats to 'bad to awful across the board'? Elan might not have a big Str or Con bonus - but he doesn't seem to have a penalty, either.

[Kish]

When does he reliably miss range touch attacks?
Note: Vaarsuvius has No Real Attack Bonus To Speak Of. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)

[Olinser]

I thought we had no stats info on Dashing Swordsmen, meaning we don't know if it uses his STR or DEX scores. He might (presumably), be getting extra damage from his CHA score via puns, but he's still stuck with a not spectacular attack roll from his Bard levels + low STR in that case. And i don't think we can get anything on his STR score from all those grapples haley keeps making on him, it's not like he's going to fight back :smallamused:. (sorry couldn't resist a terrible :elan: quality joke on the end).

The Dashing Swordsman lets him add his Charisma modifier to his attack rolls (and his damage rolls at level 3).

[Olinser]

Note: Vaarsuvius has No Real Attack Bonus To Speak Of. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)

That backs up what I've been saying - he doesn't have a bonus, but he doesn't really have a penalty either. Hence, average stat.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

O-Chul took "dump stat" out back, beat it up, and buried it.

The better question to ask is, where is O-Chul's dump stat?

[hamishspence]

The Dashing Swordsman lets him add his Charisma modifier to his attack rolls (and his damage rolls at level 3).

Where are you getting "bonus to attack rolls" from?

[zimmerwald1915]

As for his Wisdom... you're taking an isolated incident, where he made a bad call after he had literally gone without sleep (or trance, whatever you want to call it) for WEEKS, and was now in a situation where his mate and children are about to be basically condemned to an eternity of suffering, and think that projects onto his score? Come on man, you've got to have more than 1 bad choice to back it up.
Okay, how about her totally botched Sense Motive versus Sabine in the bar in Azure City?


Sure, Roy has great stats, nobody is disputing that, but how do you go from having 3 average stats to 'bad to awful across the board'? Elan might not have a big Str or Con bonus - but he doesn't seem to have a penalty, either.
The point is that stat generation cannot be fair. The OOTSverse cannot possibly run on a point buy, for instance, because the point buys for Roy and Elan cannot be equal. Whether Elan's STR or CON are marginally bad or marginally good doesn't make much of a difference. He cannot possibly have stats on par with Roy's.


The Dashing Swordsman lets him add his Charisma modifier to his attack rolls (and his damage rolls at level 3).
No it doesn't. The first level lets him add CHA to damage. It does not modify attack rolls. The one time Elan actually attacked someone in armor, Kubota, he missed horribly with every swing he made.


That backs up what I've been saying - he doesn't have a bonus, but he doesn't really have a penalty either. Hence, average stat.
Actually, she might be carrying a hefty DEX penalty indeed. The quote is ambiguous as to whether it is talking about DEX bonus to ranged touch attack rolls, or total bonus to ranged touch attack rolls. If it's the latter, V's DEX would have to be around 5 to counterbalance the +6 BAB she'd get from being a level 12 Wizard. Even if it's just talking about DEX bonus to ranged attack rolls, a DEX of 10 is below average for an elf.

[SowZ]

BAB is level dependant, and throwing stuff is more STR than DEX? I think Dex should be below average. Even with very good rolls, his 25 CON (if that's true) has to come from more than just a CHA of 6-8 (can't see it being lower than that).

I was arguing against the person who said he had good Dex by saying he could be accurate with thrown things because of a high BAB, (throwing is based on Dex, though.) In lieu of much evidence either way, I assume O-Chul's Dexterity is average along with his Intelligence. Were I to assign his scores I'd say:

25 Con, 17 Str, 16 Wis, 11 Int, 10 Dex, 7 Cha

This is just me guessing and ballparking, of course.

[hamishspence]

No it doesn't. The first level lets him add CHA to damage. It does not modify attack rolls. The one time Elan actually attacked someone in armor, Kubota, he missed horribly with every swing he made.

He fights Tarquin too:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html

And Tarquin says he's "learned to defend himself from many obscure techniques:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html

[zimmerwald1915]

He fights Tarquin too:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html

And Tarquin says he's "learned to defend himself from many obscure techniques:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html
That only strengthens my point, adding another to the list of "people in armor Elan has attacked and against whom he has failed to land a blow".

[SowZ]

While it's true OOTS must have random stat distribution, I always assumed Elan had a Dex modifier at least two higher than his Str modifier. Since he is using a rapier as opposed to a longsword, and often nothing in the other hand, weapon finesse is the easiest way to explain this.

[Kish]

That backs up what I've been saying - he doesn't have a bonus, but he doesn't really have a penalty either. Hence, average stat.
...If you want to read it literally like that, "no real bonus" on ranged attack rolls would indicate a Dexterity penalty that cancels out his/her Base Attack Bonus.

...I advise against reading it that literally because it's physically impossible for a character who is able to move to have a Dexterity that bad.

[zimmerwald1915]

While it's true OOTS must have random stat distribution, I always assumed Elan had a Dex modifier at least two higher than his Str modifier. Since he is using a rapier as opposed to a longsword, and often nothing in the other hand, weapon finesse is the easiest way to explain this.
Or he's a bit thick and made a suboptimal choice. Given his character and the tone of the piece, I have no problems believing that. :smallsmile:


...If you want to read it literally like that, "no real bonus" on ranged attack rolls would indicate a Dexterity penalty that cancels out his/her Base Attack Bonus.

...I advise against reading it that literally because it's physically impossible for a character who is able to move to have a Dexterity that bad.
A level 12 Wizard with a DEX of 5 (base 3, +2 for being an elf) will have a ranged touch attack modifier of +3. I don't really believe V's DEX is that low, but three is close enough to zero to broadly fit the quote.

[SowZ]

Or he's a bit thick and made a suboptimal choice. Given his character and the tone of the piece, I have no problems believing that. :smallsmile:


A level 12 Wizard with a DEX of 5 (base 3, +2 for being an elf) will have a ranged touch attack modifier of +3. I don't really believe V's DEX is that low, but three is close enough to zero to broadly fit the quote.

Yeah, Elan is the type to pick a rapier over a longsword because he thinks it looks cooler.

[Aquatosic]

I would guess O-Chul has good Strength, Incredible Constitution, passable Dexterity, (good aim=high BAB,) decent Intelligence, (we do know he had the presence of mind and spell knowledge to record Xykon's spell list,) solid Wisdom, bad Charisma.

So; Con>Str>Wis>Int=Dex>Cha

My impression.

I had forgotten about that whole spell list incident

[Olinser]

The point is that stat generation cannot be fair. The OOTSverse cannot possibly run on a point buy, for instance, because the point buys for Roy and Elan cannot be equal. Whether Elan's STR or CON are marginally bad or marginally good doesn't make much of a difference. He cannot possibly have stats on par with Roy's.


Who says they have to be fair? I have not heard a single person even try to claim that Elan's stats are anywhere close to Roy's. Being 'fair' doesn't have to mean 'everybody the same points'.

You're looking much more at a 'high-mid-low' party spread of points here.

I've had more than 1 DM have some way of distributing points, either by having guys choose or elect people to different roles, or have pre-generated characters that have different levels of stats.

For instance, if you have a 6-man (plus 1 DM) group, you would have Party Leader (or Elite), 2 Veterans, and 3 Rank and File.

The party leader/Elite would get 40 points (or if he's doing straight roll picks, 1 18, 1 16, 1 14, and 3 12s), the 2 Veterans would each get 35 points, and the 3 Rank and File would get 30 points each. How they want to select classes due to those points is obviously left up to the players themselves.

Actual numbers are of course up to the DM, but the basic idea is that you have a couple guys that just have better stats than the others. It's up to the players how they want to form around that.

I envision that the OOTS has something like this. You have 1 elite character - Roy, 2 good stat characters - Haley and Durkon, and 3 averages - Belkar, Elan, V.

[Rakoa]

For instance, if you have a 6-man (plus 1 DM) group, you would have Party Leader (or Elite), 2 Veterans, and 3 Rank and File.

The party leader/Elite would get 40 points (or if he's doing straight roll picks, 1 18, 1 16, 1 14, and 3 12s), the 2 Veterans would each get 35 points, and the 3 Rank and File would get 30 points each. How they want to select classes due to those points is obviously left up to the players themselves.


You couldn't pay me enough to play with a DM who is going to randomly assign higher point values to certain characters over others.

[Olinser]

You couldn't pay me enough to play with a DM who is going to randomly assign higher point values to certain characters over others.

You don't necessarily random assign it. The players can pick, based on what class they want to play, and how they think things are going to shake out.

Especially if you have a solid group of guys, each one generally has roles they like to play (I myself always liked playing healers).

Based on the module you're doing, you might decide that you want your damage caster to get the Elite set of stats. But maybe next module that involves invading a Lich's stronghold, you might want your Cleric to be the highest stats. Maybe you want your meat shield highest - this are all things the players decide amongst themselves.

Trust me, it results in a LOT more thought going into party composition and character generation than the bland, "OK, everybody gets 30 points, pick your characters."

If you've ever played a module that has pre-generated characters, almost every single one I've ever gone through uses this method. There are a couple characters in the mix that are just straight-up better than any of the others, and a few that simply will never get picked unless you have enough guys that somebody HAS to take them.

[Rakoa]

You don't necessarily random assign it. The players can pick, based on what class they want to play, and how they think things are going to shake out.

Especially if you have a solid group of guys, each one generally has roles they like to play (I myself always liked playing healers).

Based on the module you're doing, you might decide that you want your damage caster to get the Elite set of stats. But maybe next module that involves invading a Lich's stronghold, you might want your Cleric to be the highest stats. Maybe you want your meat shield highest - this are all things the players decide amongst themselves.

Trust me, it results in a LOT more thought going into party composition and character generation than the bland, "OK, everybody gets 30 points, pick your characters."

If you've ever played a module that has pre-generated characters, almost every single one I've ever gone through uses this method. There are a couple characters in the mix that are just straight-up better than any of the others, and a few that simply will never get picked unless you have enough guys that somebody HAS to take them.

Actually, if you're going to base them on the module, that does make a bit more sense. Having an especially more powerful character for a different situation could be interesting.

[stsasser]

What do +5 Holy Cajones do for your CHA?

[Crusher]

Fail.

O-chul's dump stat is obviously fail, because he doesn't have any.

As for character stats, the unfairness of the OotS stat distribution is something that's bothered me for literally years. While I don't have an answer, one assumption that could be made to narrow the gap (which, coincidentally, I asked about yesterday in the Class and Level thread. Its complete speculation so I didn't take it any farther than that) is that Roy actually has two dump-stats. DEX, obviously, but also CON.

If you assume Roy has 8s for both DEX and CON, his stats look a lot more reasonable. Of course, that's some pretty horrible stat choosing for a fighter, but during the fight over Azure City, Xykon did suggest Roy go work on his build.

How would Roy get by with an 8 CON? Well, he's a fighter with a ton of feats. You can take Toughness more than once, right? If he'd taken it 2 or even 3 times, his comment back in the Dungeon of Durukon about "having a lot of HP" would still technically be accurate and since he's a fighter, his Fort save would merely be good rather than fantastic.

[ZerglingOne]

That backs up what I've been saying - he doesn't have a bonus, but he doesn't really have a penalty either. Hence, average stat.

When he was missing Qarr, he was likely Exhausted which would incur a -6 to dexterity (-3 to hit) making him much more likely to miss a ranged touch against a tiny (+2 to touch AC), relatively agile (+3 from dex) creature that was likely making liberal use of the Total Defense action (another +4) that would put him at 19 touch AC. Pretty high given the situation V was in.

Edit: also the dodge feat, so 20

[Kish]

doesn't have any.

As for character stats, the unfairness of the OotS stat distribution is something that's bothered me for literally years.
The default method of stat generation is roll 4d6 six times, dropping the lowest die each time.

That can produce radically different stats. And there is no need for an explanation beyond, "Rich didn't imagine the characters' stats as being generated by a variant method."

The character who rolls were really insanely high was Miko.

[ghoul-n]

DEX, obviously

Common sense dictates that you must have decent Dex to be any good with swords or polearms (which, I hope, Roy gets to use someday). Not to mention making any fancy moves.

[ghoul-n]

Gah, I want to give some good ranseur to Roy now :|

Like, as birthday present or something.

[King of Nowhere]

About o-chul appearing charismatic even if he laccks charisma: he impressed us with his actions, not with his flair. Even someone with bad charisma may influence other people impressively by heroic display or deep reasoning.

Basically, O-Chul don't neeed charisma to show you how badass he is.

EDIT: about fairness in stats:
I prefer rolling dice to point buy because i focus more on the roleplaying part and with point buy every character of a certain class will look exactly identical to any other character of the same class. It's better for powergaming, worse for roleplaying.
I have two ways of keeping it fair: if someone has clearly lower stats than anyone else, I let him reroll some of the worst scores.
If someone has much higher stats than anyone else, I ask him to play an unoptimized combo (like an half orc wizard) to make it fair. After all, it stand to reason that occasionally a half orc with 16 int will be born, and he will become a wizard. Throwing that, or the occasional halfling fighter, makes the world more realistic imo.
If all the party has very high stats, I just send stronger monsters against them.
Also, rolling dices is in mmy experience the only way to make a monk playable. Monks sucks because they depend on so many different stats, so with point buy they are forced either to spread or to renounce to something. But they become actually viable if you have, like, 4 rolls in the 15-16 range. On the other hand, a wizard with those stats would suffer for the lack of an 18 int and would not get much benefit from good rolls. A wizard could work effectively with 3 3 18 18 3 3.

[Kish]

Common sense dictates that you must have decent Dex to be any good with swords or polearms (which, I hope, Roy gets to use someday). Not to mention making any fancy moves.
Uh. You're claiming "common sense" should override D&D rules in OotS?

A certain dirt farmer with extremely keen hearing might have something to say to you.

[Querzis]

I had forgotten about that whole spell list incident

Then again, having the presence of mind to list all of your enemies spell and the memory to remember them all is pretty much wisdom on both count. While I expect his wisdom to be high enough that becoming a cleric instead of a Fighter/pally would have been a valid choice, I really dont think O-chul got anything else then average int.


Common sense dictates that you must have decent Dex to be any good with swords or polearms (which, I hope, Roy gets to use someday). Not to mention making any fancy moves.

As a guy who really coudnt be more clumsy but got the chance to hold a real battleaxe and do a few roleplay fight with fake ones, you really dont. You cant try it yourself mind you, just take any long object weighing around 25 pounds and see if your dexterity matter in the slightest when you swing it. O-chul and Roy arent fencing, they are swinging around big hunk of metals. You need dex for a weapon like a rapier, a shortsword or two-weapon fighting. For a greatsword or a metal pole you picked off the ground, as long as you have the dex to hold it (which I really hope you do) the rest is all strength.

And what fancy moves? Please show me one fancy move O-chul or Roy ever used. Belkar and Miko now those guys use dex in combat, tumbling around the battlefield but Roy and O-chul are as straightforward as can be. They are pure strength fighters, I do not expect either to have better then an 11 in dex.

[SowZ]

Fail.

O-chul's dump stat is obviously fail, because he doesn't have any.

As for character stats, the unfairness of the OotS stat distribution is something that's bothered me for literally years. While I don't have an answer, one assumption that could be made to narrow the gap (which, coincidentally, I asked about yesterday in the Class and Level thread. Its complete speculation so I didn't take it any farther than that) is that Roy actually has two dump-stats. DEX, obviously, but also CON.

If you assume Roy has 8s for both DEX and CON, his stats look a lot more reasonable. Of course, that's some pretty horrible stat choosing for a fighter, but during the fight over Azure City, Xykon did suggest Roy go work on his build.

How would Roy get by with an 8 CON? Well, he's a fighter with a ton of feats. You can take Toughness more than once, right? If he'd taken it 2 or even 3 times, his comment back in the Dungeon of Durukon about "having a lot of HP" would still technically be accurate and since he's a fighter, his Fort save would merely be good rather than fantastic.

4d6 drop lowest has allowed me to make a character with this array:
18, 17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11. A PB of 55.

I've also seen it make characters with nothing above 14 and multiple stats under ten. I don't see how it is inconsistent in the OOTS world at all to have such stats. Especially if people born to have class levels, (assuming that even exists,) get 4d6 drop lowest and other people get 3d6.

[Imgran]

Yeah, Elan is the type to pick a rapier over a longsword because he thinks it looks cooler.

Sure, granted, but let's also remember that Elan is definitely at least adequately agile as demonstrated multiple times in the story. Both times he and Nale really squared off, Elan was far too fast for Nale and Nale had to pull some trick out of his backside to even up the fight. In fact the only time he was in combat and wound up completely outmaneuvered was when he fought Tarquin.

There's other holes to his fighting style, but speed and dexterity aren't among them.

Since no one has told him that his rapier fighting style is poorly optimized for him, and you know Roy at least would have TRIED it at SOME point if it was, I think we can safely conclude that Elan relying on his DEX and fencing skills is probably smarter than the same Elan relying on a longsword.

(that said, I think the Giant has made it clear that rapier fighting might be Elan's top choice purely by default. He has never demonstrated anything resembling average strength, much less good strength, WAGging Elan's strength I would guess it would be somewhere in the 8ish range, outright mediocre, so anything much above a 12 in dexterity might be enough to dictate that he favor the rapier).

[SowZ]

Sure, granted, but let's also remember that Elan is definitely at least adequately agile as demonstrated multiple times in the story. Both times he and Nale really squared off, Elan was far too fast for Nale and Nale had to pull some trick out of his backside to even up the fight. In fact the only time he was in combat and wound up completely outmaneuvered was when he fought Tarquin.

There's other holes to his fighting style, but speed and dexterity aren't among them.

Since no one has told him that his rapier fighting style is poorly optimized for him, and you know Roy at least would have TRIED it at SOME point if it was, I think we can safely conclude that Elan relying on his DEX and fencing skills is probably smarter than the same Elan relying on a longsword.

(that said, I think the Giant has made it clear that rapier fighting might be Elan's top choice purely by default. He has never demonstrated anything resembling average strength, much less good strength, WAGging Elan's strength I would guess it would be somewhere in the 8ish range, outright mediocre, so anything much above a 12 in dexterity might be enough to dictate that he favor the rapier).

Assuming he has Weapon Finesse, that is. I've always assumed this is the case, though.

[skaddix]

The default method of stat generation is roll 4d6 six times, dropping the lowest die each time.

That can produce radically different stats. And there is no need for an explanation beyond, "Rich didn't imagine the characters' stats as being generated by a variant method."

The character who rolls were really insanely high was Miko.

Really I would think Miko would have Wisdom and/or Charisma as dump stats. Based on her incredible ability to jump to conclusions and the fact that everyone including her fellow Paladins hate her. Although Paladins use Wisdom so her dump is Charisma most likely then.

[Kish]

She was able to Lay On Hands and also referenced Divine Grace. If her "dump stat" was 12, that's pretty good.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, if you're going to base them on the module, that does make a bit more sense. Having an especially more powerful character for a different situation could be interesting.

It works for campaigns too. Any military one I've been in has resulted in the player who's the squad leader getting a bump as well, usually in class level but sometimes in power level.

Of course, it should go without saying that you need players who work well with each other for this to not turn into a KODT-type fiasco.

[Rakoa]

It works for campaigns too. Any military one I've been in has resulted in the player who's the squad leader getting a bump as well, usually in class level but sometimes in power level.

Of course, it should go without saying that you need players who work well with each other for this to not turn into a KODT-type fiasco.

That's the other thing I was thinking of too. If having a certain player be more powerful than others can be a net gain to the party by increasing their effectiveness, and everyone is on board, it's a great idea. But if one player is more powerful and is just using that power to show off or belittle other players, then of course it doesn't really work out.

All in all, if the group is good the idea is good.

[hamishspence]

Belkar and Miko now those guys use dex in combat, tumbling around the battlefield but Roy and O-chul are as straightforward as can be. They are pure strength fighters, I do not expect either to have better then an 11 in dex.

Roy demonstrates exceptional accuracy with an improvised throwing weapon here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html

[LordVonDerp]

And his CHA is probably too low to cast spells.

That's Pathfinder, 3.5 paladins use wisdom for spells (one of many things Pathfinder fixed)

[Mando Knight]

DContrast that to Roy, who seems to have bonuses to everything except possibly DEX, along with natural INT and STR both around or above 16, and you'll get my point, which is that stat generation in the OOTSverse cannot be fair, no matter the method used.
I would say he probably has a bonus to Dex, given that he's wearing medium armor rather than heavy. That, or he dislikes the movement penalty.

In general, the Class and Level Geekery Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253978) is your one-stop shop for reverse engineering the character stats.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: If there's nothing more to say about O-Chul, perhaps this thread can be locked? Try to drag this back on track, please.

[Flame of Anor]

Sheriff: If there's nothing more to say about O-Chul, perhaps this thread can be locked? Try to drag this back on track, please.

Yeah, it looks to me like basically a less-rigorous duplicate of the Class/Level Geekery thread.