[3.5] Cheat or...?

[Yael]

A couple of friends and I were running a custom-made world in 3.5. Our campaign started at level 3rd and we went all way long to lv10 (like 4 months). In some places, our characters died and got resurrected and others simply made new characters and were added to the party (I was lucky enough for my character to ''survive'' until the last of the campaign... I mean survive because I got killed a couple of times, but I got resurrected in the act [Last Breath]. Well this is off-topic.
The thing is that our mission was to capture (or kill) a monk in its own monastery (a place... well, full of monks).

Our party was:
Fighter/Dervish (Me)
Wizard/Necromancer (A power player)
Barbarian/Bear Warrior (A friend of mine not so familiar with the game)
Ranger/Order of the Bow Initiate (A friend who did a well-made build of his character though he has not too much time playing :D)
Fighter/Griffon Rider (Another friend not too used on the game, but did a good job, with his charges)

We all arround lv 9-10.

We faced two monks, an Elf (our mark) and an Orc (the elf was a Sun Elf, the orc was a Half-Orc), we all do a plenty of damage, specially the Necromancer with his Skull-made Ettins with their HDs maxed, +8 to their current strengh and regeneration 2 (fast healing as well), and the Griffon Rider (charging from the sky and giving arround 100-150 damages in a hit).

Now, our Griffon Rider tried to finish our enemy (presumed at CR13) in a sole hit, it's a monk, how much HP could he have? When he charged, the monk disarmed his weapon, just like that, our DM said: ''He disarmed you.'' no roll...
Then our Bear Warrior charged at him (with his lion totem variant, his level in Exotic Weapon Master and his Thorium Weapon, dealing his +9 STR x2.5), and the monk recieved 50dmgs (due to weapon templates and else). Then our Necromancer brought his four Ettins arround him, attacking and dealing 40+ damages each. And me, dancing and dealing a full attack of at least 50dmgs (lots of str and good rolls). That is plenty of damage (arround 260 dmg), but our DM said: ''He is standing still, not so damaged, it looks like for you.'' We all were like ''WHAT?!'' Then it was their turn and scored like 100+damage in a single attack (desisive strike) in non-lethal to the b-warrior. Our turn again, we though that we could kill him in our next round, so we all attacked, including the Necromancer, shooting rays at him, we scored arround 200+ dmg again, but he was standing still... At the end, we grappled him and recieved a Corrupted Maximized, Empowered Fire-Ball from our necromancer (we were all cursed by ''Gift of the Undead'' so we healed ourselves instead of taking damage), and killed him... finally, but how the hell he could had all that HP?!
Any thoughs?

[ArcturusV]

Laws of Dramatic Plottery. No one wants the Final Boss to go down in a single round.

[Greenish]

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/104745425/fiat_logo-49491e16bf197.jpg

[Glarnog]

DR, Resitances, Class Features, Buffs, Elite array

[BCOVertigo]

As far as build goes? He likely didn't have one and the DM would have been hard pressed to tell you how many HD he had.

I think a better question is, was it an entertaining fight?

[Flickerdart]

DR, Resitances, Class Features, Buffs, Elite array
None of those things can soak 600+ damage, unless we're talking things like Timeless Body which a mid-level Monk doesn't have access to.

[Yael]

Our DM told us that the monk has not a good CON score, actually he was at -4, but was built based on INT, with feats and else. Including the one which gives you INT to hp, he was arround CR13 (we expected 13HD).

The necromancer's player had a theory, how about if the monk had like 40 levels of commoner and a level of monk? Compesating the CR and, even with that, he could have not resisted 600+ damage :c

[ArcturusV]

Well, you typically have more HD than your CR. See for example Goblins being 1/3 CR, but 1 HD, or to pick out another random monster, a Dragon Turtle at CR 9 and 12 HD. So that means at least 14 Hitdice, possibly more.

He might have also mistaken the feats and such. For example, adding the monk's Int SCORE per hit dice instead of the Int MODIFIER.

[Emperor Tippy]

None of those things can soak 600+ damage, unless we're talking things like Timeless Body which a mid-level Monk doesn't have access to.

Could be an Elan. I've made ones that could tank in excess of one hundred damage at level 1.

Could be a Craft Contingent Persistent Delay Death set to activate when he goes to negatives (possibly not persisted as the monk did die to HP damage eventually). This one really pisses off players.

Could be Craft Contingent Timeless Body.

It was probably DM fiat (especially with the no roll disarming) but I could have done it without too much hassle and still keeping in line with the states CR.

[Telonius]

Okay, int-based, so probably Carmendine Monk (or Kung Fu Genius). Possibly Tashalatora?

I'm thinking Elusive Target could explain some of the discrepancy. If a lot of the damage was Power Attack-based, the DM could have just been letting you tell him the number and then mentally subtracting anything due to Power Attack.

[Yael]

Let me repeat that it was a Sun Elf, no templates (our DM said), so what can you say? Any idea?

[Emperor Tippy]

Our DM told us that the monk has not a good CON score, actually he was at -4, but was built based on INT, with feats and else. Including the one which gives you INT to hp, he was arround CR13 (we expected 13HD).

The necromancer's player had a theory, how about if the monk had like 40 levels of commoner and a level of monk? Compesating the CR and, even with that, he could have not resisted 600+ damage :c

Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Grey Elf, Kung Fu Genius to run all of the monk abilities off of Int.

Max HP with 30 Int and 13 HD for a monk is 234. Although there are plenty of ways to push that higher if you are optimizing HP and don't care much about effectiveness otherwise.

Granted, it's not how I would play it if I wanted to create a CR 13 Juggernaut.

[inuyasha]

Rule 0 of 1e and all editions since: the DM is god the DM does whateverthehellhewants

[Emperor Tippy]

Let me repeat that it was a Sun Elf, no templates (our DM said), so what can you say? Any idea?

Sun Elf still has the +2 Int that Grey Elf has.

Remember Evasion (and improved evasion). That means no damage on a successful Reflex save against the Fireball (and with Insightful Reflexes he get's Int to Reflex saves) and half damage on a failed save.

Do you know how many of your attacks actually hit? Because the Monk could have had an AC that was through the roof (eternal wand of Mage Armor+Int to AC from Monk just for starters).

Could have had a Craft Contingent Heal.

[Telonius]

Thinking a bit more about it, Emperor Tippy probably had it right with Delay Death. A Delay Death/Diehard combination would look exactly like you described it, until the Delay Death spell wore off. (5 rounds if he had it from a scroll, since it's a level 3 spell).

[Yael]

Remember Evasion (and improved evasion). That means no damage on a successful Reflex save against the Fireball (and with Insightful Reflexes he get's Int to Reflex saves) and half damage on a failed save.

The last fireball actually hit, he was grappled and lost Evasion.




Do you know how many of your attacks actually hit? Because the Monk could have had an AC that was through the roof (eternal wand of Mage Armor+Int to AC from Monk just for starters).

He said that the attacks were hitting.

[Temotei]

He said that the attacks were hitting.

It's possible that the monk had natural armor or was just a badass and taking the hits (which would still hit, just not do real damage).

[Sith_Happens]

he was arround CR13

I'm pretty sure a monk would have to be high epic level to be CR 13, so there's your explanation.:smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

I wonder how much of the damage you all did (particularly the Ettin zombies) would have been simply shrugged off by DR 10/--, which has been available to CR-appropriate enemies for 6 levels by the time the thirteenth-level Monk comes around. I don't know what the Ettin zombies could have even done against the significantly weaker DR/silver, DR/cold iron, DR/adamantine, DR/good, etc. that are commonly available through cheaper methods.

I don't know how well your DM optimizes, but Tippy's high hit point explanation plus a fair amount of DR would equal a lot of damage soaking, even for somebody that is clearly getting hit (ESPECIALLY if the attacks are many and minor).

[TuggyNE]

specially the Necromancer with his Skull-made Ettins with their HDs maxed, +8 to their current strengh and regeneration 2 (fast healing as well)

Hmm, it would seem your Necromancer either doesn't know the rules or is fudging a bit; Undead do not benefit from Regeneration, as they have no Con score.

[only1doug]

I'm pretty sure a monk would have to be high epic level to be CR 13, so there's your explanation.:smalltongue:

Monk levels are always considered non-associated (even when its the primary class)? That might just be a workable houserule...

I like it.

[CTrees]

Delay Death + Die Hard is at least the start of how I'd recreate this, with the possibility of DR which the DM was factoring in, but not outright telling you about.

That said, the most likely cause was the DM simply giving the monk an extra couple hundred hit points so it couldn't be alpha striked into oblivion before taking a single action. It's okay. It happens. Usually it shouldn't be quite so blatant, but...

[CaladanMoonblad]

Sounds more like the GM decided to ignore the rules. > : /

It happens, but then, so do players walking away.

The Disarm auto-negate was pretty much the first clue that the GM wasn't going to play fair. Even NPCs have to abide by the "readying an action" to disarm a charging enemy by writing it down or declaring verbally "The monk is biding his time" or something to that effect and take the hit on initiative order.

The next clue was when the GM didn't bother to use the Massive Damage Rule when a single attack hit for 50 damage.

The last clue was unachievable Hit Point total.



I'm pretty clear with my players on how I run my games; BBEGs get 90% of total maximum health, Lts get 75%, and mooks get 50%. The rules are sacred in our games, it is the difference between pissed off and happy encounters. GMs cheat when they are more attached to their characters than allowing the rules (fate) decide the story. Two very large coppers for you.